Holy poo! Hate for midlevels.

[oldManDO2009]

All I am saying is that when I shadowed in the ER at one particular hospital (both night and day shifts), the residents saw ALL the patients and then presented to the attendings who rarely left their chair. If something went wrong (which it did not while I was there) the attending could be in any room of the ER in under 15 seconds. An attending was always right around the nurses station in the ER. Not in a call room. Not at home. Not in the OR. There, but not seeing patients.. just hanging out. 24/7.

This doesn't mean that every hospital does it the same way or that the way this particular hospital does it is right or wrong. This is just how it happened to be done during the month of May in 2007 at this one particular hospital.

This is entertaining…. with the addition of month and year it is even more interesting. foreverlaur, try adding time (hour, minute and second) - you have so much experience it is hard to keep up

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[foreverLaur]

This is entertaining…. with the addition of month and year it is even more interesting. foreverlaur, try adding time (hour, minute and second) - you have so much experience it is hard to keep up

You find me one single person who is or was premed who didn't spend some time shadowing in the ER or elsewhere.

I don't think my experience is that much, really.

I finished school very early in May of 2007 and I didn't leave until early June 2007 for Philadelphia to work. I had a free month, so I spend it in the ER because I was going to be pre medically something related. There happened to be an ortho trauma case one night, which I followed to the ER. The surgeon let me come back and shadow a few other cases that month.

When I returned to OSU, I shadowed an ortho surgeon and her PA at OSU for a while. I then wanted to see a branch of surgery besides ortho, so I shadowed a thoracic surgery PA in the clinic, so everyone could get to know me, then in the OR.

I spent very little time working as an LPN, but those shifts are impossible when you are trying to graduate, especially early, so I just volunteer 1 day a week at Children's Hospital right now, go to school full time, and waitress because it is great $$$$$.


I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people my age who have a whole lot more experience than I do.

Perhaps I should say that I spend eight 12 hour shifts in the ER instead of spent some time in the ER during the month of May 07?

 

[fab4fan]

Perhaps you should just stop trying to make yourself out to appear to look more experienced than you actually are. For a supposedly smart person, that lesson, which is coming from many people, just doesn't seem to be sinking in for you.

I'd still love to know the name of the high school-LPN program you went to. I notice you haven't ever been too forthcoming about that. Whatever, I'm sure there's yet another rational explanation coming.

 

[lawguil]

You find me one single person who is or was premed who didn't spend some time shadowing in the ER or elsewhere.

I don't think my experience is that much, really.

I finished school very early in May of 2007 and I didn't leave until early June 2007 for Philadelphia to work. I had a free month, so I spend it in the ER because I was going to be pre medically something related. There happened to be an ortho trauma case one night, which I followed to the ER. The surgeon let me come back and shadow a few other cases that month.

When I returned to OSU, I shadowed an ortho surgeon and her PA at OSU for a while. I then wanted to see a branch of surgery besides ortho, so I shadowed a thoracic surgery PA in the clinic, so everyone could get to know me, then in the OR.

I spent very little time working as an LPN, but those shifts are impossible when you are trying to graduate, especially early, so I just volunteer 1 day a week at Children's Hospital right now, go to school full time, and waitress because it is great $$$$$.


I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people my age who have a whole lot more experience than I do.

Perhaps I should say that I spend eight 12 hour shifts in the ER instead of spent some time in the ER during the month of May 07?

I'm going to start lifting my favorate lines out of foreverLaur's posts.

My favorate line from this post:

...because I was going to be pre medically something related

 

[greytmedic]

You find me one single person who is or was premed who didn't spend some time shadowing in the ER or elsewhere

During my years as a premed I never actually shadowed anyone. I gained medical experience other routes.

 

[fab4fan]

Well, there's one.

Next!

 

[foreverLaur]

I shadow because it is interesting. I have learned a lot, seen a lot, and talked to a lot of doctors, residents, and interns.

I love that I got to see a torn ACL repaired because my sister had hers repaired 14 months ago. It was neat to see it from the recovery side and the OR side. I'd probably still shadow even if I wasn't going into a health care field.

Supposedly, OSU even lets people watch autopsies. Could be interesting.

 

[Farmer Jane]

I'm still fascinated by the concept of LPN work not being compatible with school. PMs (did that for a few years as a CNA), weekends (do that now), extra shifts during the summer... totally impossible to go to school when you work those shifts. Because, you know, nursing is just so inflexible.

 

[foreverLaur]

I'm taking 21 credit hours this quarter and 22 credit hours next quarter. I am in class starting at 9:00 am and some days end as late as 7:18 PM because of labs. I obviously have breaks in the middle but not long enough to work a shift at a hospital.

Why work 1-2 twelve hour shifts at a hospital on the weekend (and give up my whole weekend) when I can work as a waitress and make just as good $$ and work much shorter shifts that can be worked around my class schedule? They have no problem with shifts that are 3-4 hours in length. I need time to study here, too. The hospital won't hire me for just 1 shift a week. Plus, I love waitressing and nothing beats walking out with a massive wad of cash every night.

 

[Farmer Jane]

I'm taking 21 credit hours this quarter and 22 credit hours next quarter. I am in class starting at 9:00 am and some days end as late as 7:18 PM because of labs. I obviously have breaks in the middle but not long enough to work a shift at a hospital.

Why work 1-2 twelve hour shifts at a hospital on the weekend (and give up my whole weekend) when I can work as a waitress and make just as good $$ and work much shorter shifts that can be worked around my class schedule? They have no problem with shifts that are 3-4 hours in length. I need time to study here, too. The hospital won't hire me for just 1 shift a week. Plus, I love waitressing and nothing beats walking out with a massive wad of cash every night.

You've taken 21 credit hours and had classes from 9 am to 7:18 pm every year you've attended college? That's why you've worked a series of jobs that paid far less than an LPN all this time?

Hospitals don't hire part time or PRN staff where you live? Gosh, we're actively looking here in Milwaukee.

Do whatever you want, Laur, but I do wish you would admit the obvious: you are not an LPN.

 

[foreverLaur]

There is a difference between working part time and working 1 shift a week when you have very limited time and a constantly changing schedule. They don't like to hire full time college students.

This upcoming quarter I am taking an online course that has a Sunday afternoon lab every other weekend.

Am I an LPN? yes. Have I really worked as an LPN? Not really. Do I personally know much about working as an LPN? Obviously not. I have the license. That is about it.

Oh and waitressing pays pretty well. Especially when you get a ton of college kids who drink nonstop and get some pretty huge bills and leave you large tips. I don't have to wait for a paycheck. I walk out w/ minimum $100 cash in my pocket every night and I still get a paycheck. Plus, they work around my class schedule no problem and I only have to work 3-4 hours to make that $100 minimum + paycheck w/ charge tips. It pays enough to keep me going through school (financially), it is very convenient, and I enjoy it.

When you take 4 classes a quarter that have lectures, recitations, and labs it is hard to fit them into a neat and tidy schedule. Yes, I have routinely taken around 20 credit hours a quarter since I started school. Partly because I have changed majors too many times and want to still graduate on time. Partly because I function better when I am busy and slightly stressed out. Partly because I want to have time to take cool and fun classes as well. Partly because I transferred from a semester school to a quarter school and that messed a lot of stuff up and I have a lot of classes I have to retake. Partly because I now have to take prerequisites for BSN/PA school that I was not previously expecting to take (nutrition, ethics, biochem, etc).

 

[Farmer Jane]

As usual, thanks for the entertainment.

 

[JRJ26]

I'm still fascinated by the concept of LPN work not being compatible with school. PMs (did that for a few years as a CNA), weekends (do that now), extra shifts during the summer... totally impossible to go to school when you work those shifts. Because, you know, nursing is just so inflexible.

haha yeah, I'm a tech and work 3-11p on thursdays and 7a-7p on Saturdays (used to do 11a-11p). Some of my friends that are also full time students and techs work nights or random hours like 7p-3am. We're all PRN too. And I'm pre-med, science major, 16+ credits, and I still kept up my grades and just got my first acceptance to med school. Yeah...impossible...lol.

 

[zenman]

I shadow because it is interesting.

All these shadows...ever take a course in Jungian psychology in your spare time...or know someone who did?

 

[lawguil]

I shadow because it is interesting. I have learned a lot, seen a lot, and talked to a lot of doctors, residents, and interns.

I love that I got to see a torn ACL repaired because my sister had hers repaired 14 months ago. It was neat to see it from the recovery side and the OR side. I'd probably still shadow even if I wasn't going into a health care field.

Supposedly, OSU even lets people watch autopsies. Could be interesting.

Favorate line"

I'd probably still shadow even if I wasn't going into a health care field.-foreverLaur

 

[bryanboling5]

Oh and waitressing pays pretty well. Especially when you get a ton of college kids who drink nonstop and get some pretty huge bills and leave you large tips. I don't have to wait for a paycheck. I walk out w/ minimum $100 cash in my pocket every night and I still get a paycheck.

i get hit on by a lot of the older men that come sit at the "bar" at Bob Evans, but I doubt that would count?

Get a lot of drunk college kids at Bob Evans?

When you take 4 classes a quarter that have lectures, recitations, and labs it is hard to fit them into a neat and tidy schedule.

Not to mention shadowing EVERY doctor in Ohio. Very time consuming.

I say, keep it up Laur! Your posts are pure comedy! I come to this board mainly to read them now whenever I need a break from ACTUALLY studying.
Bryan

 

[JRJ26]

Get a lot of drunk college kids at Bob Evans?



Not to mention shadowing EVERY doctor in Ohio. Very time consuming.

I say, keep it up Laur! Your posts are pure comedy! I come to this board mainly to read them now whenever I need a break from ACTUALLY studying.
Bryan

hahaha i do the same. it's also interesting how 4 classes a quarter makes 20+ credits, when a science course with lab is usually 4-5 credits, but not all are 5 credits...

 

[primadonna22274]

Hey Tired, this is encouraging, because I would more than likely want/need to work 1-2 shifts/week as a PA in med school since I married a poor teacher and have become accustomed to some finer things (well, my house). Doable then? I figure I'll see how it goes when the time comes.
L.

When I was in my first two years of medical school I worked every Saturday and Sunday from 7p-7aas an ER Tech, and during the first year would do per diem as a CNA at the nearest trauma center. Paid for beer and health insurance.

 

[Chronic Student]

You're smart.

If we could just get the drunks around here to get health insurance trauma wouldn't be nearly as bad. You might actually get paid for some of it.

 

[deleted6669]

Hey Tired, this is encouraging, because I would more than likely want/need to work 1-2 shifts/week as a PA in med school since I married a poor teacher and have become accustomed to some finer things (well, my house). Doable then? I figure I'll see how it goes when the time comes.
L.

pacmatt and bandit both worked during medschool and did very well.
matt was 2nd in his class with the high board score for his class and worked quite a bit. got his 1st choice of em residency too.

 

[primadonna22274]

Ha. I would sleep less before I would eat ramen. I'm a foodie snob but yes, I test well too and fortunately have a pretty sharp memory. You're so right about keeping my eye on the prize...that's the carrot that keeps dangling....
L.

Don't get me wrong, it was a real drag, and I was single at the time so didn't have the wife always complaining about me never being home. But yes, doable. Keep your eyes on the prize though; I'm uncommonly good at taking tests, so my grades stayed up, but if you have to pick between passing med school and making extra cash, take the MD and eat ramen for every meal.

 

[telenurse]

Ha. I would sleep less before I would eat ramen. I'm a foodie snob but yes, I test well too and fortunately have a pretty sharp memory. You're so right about keeping my eye on the prize...that's the carrot that keeps dangling....
L.

LOL...actually if you buy the truly Asian ramen...from the asian markets...not the stuff from American grocery stores...it's pretty good. Chop up some fresh zucchini, yellow squash, and a scrambled egg while the waters still simmering and it's a complete meal.

Nong Shin Ramyun is my favorite brand...I really don't care for anything by Maruchan

http://www.amazon.com/Shin-Ramyun-Spicy-Noodle-Shim-Gourmet/dp/B000VQD4Z6

 

[bryanboling5]

LOL...actually if you buy the truly Asian ramen...from the asian markets...not the stuff from American grocery stores...it's pretty good. Chop up some fresh zucchini, yellow squash, and a scrambled egg while the waters still simmering and it's a complete meal.

Nong Shin Ramyun is my favorite brand...I really don't care for anything by Maruchan

http://www.amazon.com/Shin-Ramyun-Spicy-Noodle-Shim-Gourmet/dp/B000VQD4Z6

I really like regular old cheap Ramen! I am usually partial to really good food, but every now and then, this hits the spot. I think it's funny that this is the only food I've seen where the different varieties are actually all the same except for the "flavor" (powder?) that you add.

 

[Farmer Jane]

Thanks guys. Haven't had the stuff in forever but now it's on my grocery list.

 

[fab4fan]

Sometimes I eat it dry with the powder sprinkled on top.

That's just pathetic. Why not just eat it package and all while you're at it?

 

[Farmer Jane]

When we were teenagers a friend of mine ate a raw frozen pizza. He said he was too hungry to wait for it to cook.

Unfortunately, it was a sausage pizza and that decision haunted him for the rest of the night.

 

[fab4fan]

I'm a boy. Cooking doesn't come naturally.

Lame. If you can suture, which is like sewing, you can boil some prepackaged noodles in water and add a sodium-laden packet of seasonings and stir.

 

[Febrifuge]

Concur: if you can sew a lac, hang a bag of fluid, splint a fracture, and clean up after yourself fairly well through it all, you have all the skills required to make fettucine carbonara at least. The kitchen just smells a lot better than the hospital, is all.

 

[Taurus]

Shortage of surgeons pinches U.S. hospitals

Here's an interesting article from that great newspaper USA Today. It's interesting because it gives some hard numbers.

From the late 1970s to the mid-1990s, several national advisory groups, including the Institute of Medicine and the Council on Graduate Medical Education, issued reports forecasting a surplus of physicians. As a result, medical schools voluntarily held enrollment relatively constant at about 16,000 new students a year. From 1980 to 2005, enrollment was flat while the U.S. population grew by more than 70 million, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC).

After educators realized the forecasting mistake, medical schools began accepting more applicants. Last year nearly 17,800 students entered U.S. medical schools, the largest entering class ever.

Medical schools have been enrolling more and more students annually to achieve a 30% increase in enrollment over 2002 levels by 2015.​

30% increase from 16,000 is 4800 more med grads per year. I'm just glad I won't have to compete with these many people for residency.

 

[Moniker]

That's just pathetic. Why not just eat it package and all while you're at it?

I eat it dry with the seasoning sometimes too. It's like chinese trail mix.

Sometimes you don't want to boil the water, cook the noodles, decide whether you want the noodles drained or not (it's better drained, mind you), wash a bowl, and eat it with a fork when you could just pulverize the bag and sprinkle the seasoning and munch.

 

[oldManDO2009]

my first 2 years of medical found me in the ER working as an RN every Saturday - did just fine....so a heavy load is not a good reason not to work in your local hospital.

Foreverlaura - shadowing is pointless since you will understand very little of what is going on in terms of pathophysiology and management.

I have been a nurse for way to long and the whole reason I renewed my license was because of the FLEXIBILITY!!! I was able to work nights, swings, weekends while going to full time school - you would understand this if you were a nurse. Many nurse that i work with are going to school while working.

All this shadowing is not experience it is observation. Getting to insert a femoral line is experience (review procedure, anatomy, complications)... So you should stop claiming all this experience and just enjoy the process of deciding what you want to do and finishing your education. Many people on this forum have been in health care for a day or two and give advice freely. You make it difficult because you are all over the place. So here is some advice - you are apparently young and have plenty of time to decide what you want to do with your life and you are not going to get more respect trying to convince a bunch of salty dogs how experience you are when it is obvious that you are wet behind the ears.

 

[primadonna22274]

OldmanDO, so refreshing, thanks for sharing. I've tired of saying these things myself.
I never shadowed either. I worked. I've had many many pre-PAs ask to shadow me and only one did I ever allow--and she made a commitment to be there weekly for about four months. I tried to teach her something. Mostly she just wanted to see if she could be interested in becoming a PA. I'm not sure if she chose to pursue it though as we lost touch.
Let me say this: any shadowing experience is, in some sense, faulty experience. Why? Because it isn't real. We're on our best behavior when we know we're being watched. We want to project the best possible image of our profession--of ourselves--because there's a very tangible positive bias that most of us professionals feel like we need to uphold. We're probably not even aware of it. Only when you work with us day in, day out do you see that we're real people who deal with shi**y situations and have to go on to the next room anyway. We throw temper tantrums sometimes and say bad words (gasp!) then ask forgiveness.
IMO the ONLY value of shadowing is to gain exposure to a number of different practice situations and specialties before you apply. Otherwise, it's just fluff and it certainly doesn't qualify as experience in my book.
L.

my first 2 years of medical found me in the ER working as an RN every Saturday - did just fine....so a heavy load is not a good reason not to work in your local hospital.

Foreverlaura - shadowing is pointless since you will understand very little of what is going on in terms of pathophysiology and management.

I have been a nurse for way to long and the whole reason I renewed my license was because of the FLEXIBILITY!!! I was able to work nights, swings, weekends while going to full time school - you would understand this if you were a nurse. Many nurse that i work with are going to school while working.

All this shadowing is not experience it is observation. Getting to insert a femoral line is experience (review procedure, anatomy, complications)... So you should stop claiming all this experience and just enjoy the process of deciding what you want to do and finishing your education. Many people on this forum have been in health care for a day or two and give advice freely. You make it difficult because you are all over the place. So here is some advice - you are apparently young and have plenty of time to decide what you want to do with your life and you are not going to get more respect trying to convince a bunch of salty dogs how experience you are when it is obvious that you are wet behind the ears.

 

[Febrifuge]

Well-said... shadowing has its place, but it's no substitute for experience, and it's misleading to lump them together. Somebody like Laur is in the middle of a process, and there's plenty of value in those folks sharing whatever insight they've gleaned so far... but the advice shouldn't be mistaken for that of someone who has reached a lot of conclusions. On these boards, it's just par for the course that some will give advice from the perspective of much more confidence and finality than they've actually earned. The cliche is true: you have to know what you don't know, and you don't learn that for a while.

Having said all that, the pre-applicant who wants to take the time to decide whether or not they really want to devote the time and energy to pursuing one career path or another gets some respect in my book. Certainly more than the one who aces a bunch of classes in their Biology degree, then doesn't realize they hate medicine until they've accepted a seat in a PA or four-year med school class. When the time comes, I won't mind if somebody wants to hover over my shoulder as a way of checking things out... but they will have to listen to some speeches.

You've hit the nail on the head though, when it comes to working, as a job, shoulder-to-shoulder with others who are doing the same. Shadowing is how I knew I wanted to explore further, and maybe make a switch away from my former career in business to one in medicine. Working as an ER tech for three years is how I decided all the important stuff about my school and career path.

And now that I'm in school, there are areas where I simply don't have the worries or doubts some of my classmates have. It was all time well-spent, and in the end the "extra" time I took to get ready to apply will make the whole thing much more efficient.

 

[pinkice2821]

you guys sure do bite each others heads off a lot

 

[Jawbone]

you guys sure do bite each others heads off a lot

Yeah, and Taurus likes to stick his head in all the time and ruin our fun little discussions

 

[Vermont Thunder]

Midlevels Are The Scum Of The Earth! They Aren't Fit To Lick Doctors' Shoes Or Clean Their Toilets. It Would Be Much Better To Be A C- Med Student Than An A+ Midlevel. Try The Carribean, Try D.o., Just For The Love Of All That Is Holy Do Not Become ONE, Trust ONE , Or Associate With Midlevels!

Shame on YOU for your lack of compassion and humanity. Please tell me you are NOT in the health field. You need to be in any business except associating with humans, on any level: if you think MD = God, you are blasphemy incarnate.

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Shame on YOU for your lack of compassion and humanity. Please tell me you are NOT in the health field. You need to be in any business except associating with humans, on any level: if you think MD = God, you are blasphemy incarnate.

He is a midlevel you jackass. It states "Resident PA Defender" right under his fracking name.


OMG!!! I CANT BELIEVE THAT ANYONE IN HEALTH CARE WOULD MAKE THEIR FIRST POST SO AGGRESSIVELY TOWARDS ANOTHER WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEIR PUBLIC PROFILE TAB TO SEE IF THEY MIGHT BE JOKING!

 

[Josh L.Ac.]

Omg Dbl Post. Kthxbye!

 

[lapelirroja]

Ahahahahahahaha. Nice. Maybe if they even looked at the "wonderful human being's" username: emedPA???

 

[f_w]

Shame on YOU for your lack of compassion and humanity. Please tell me you are NOT in the health field. You need to be in any business except associating with humans, on any level: if you think MD = God, you are blasphemy incarnate.

As the new yorker magazine found out, the ability to understand parody is not particularly widespread in this country.

 

[Faebinder]

hahhaahahahaahhahah

I wanna comment so bad... but I gotta say this... I love the stereotyping that MDs are arrogant and the midlevels are benign nice wonderful people. But then again... there is a reason we stereotype people.

 

[bryanboling5]

I love the stereotyping that MDs are arrogant and the midlevels are benign nice wonderful people.

My wife just had a baby and for a month about halfway through her pregnancy, our OB was out on maternity leave so we saw one of the midwives in the practice. She never sat down in the room. She paced the entire time. I felt like we were a minor anoyance to be suffered through. She frequently asked, "Do you have any questions?" as her hand was on the doorknob leaving the room. She had to do an internal exam on my wife and did NOT use ANY lube on the speculum!!

Our OB on the other hand, sits and talks with us, even tells funny stories and I feel like we have a great rapport with her. To me, this is the perfect example of how the idea of doctors as arrogant and too busy while midlevels are caring and have plenty of time to hold you hand is untrue.

Of course, I've known plenty the other way too.

 

[Vermont Thunder]

Mary O' Neil Mundinger, Dr.P.H - either a fraud or delusional - the scary part will be if her vision succeeds.

The medical establishment has spent decades molding (brow-beating?) men and women into physicians. They have carefully and selectively (not necessarily, rationally) chosen candidates for their programs. This careful selection means that only the best of the best will be practicing medicine. Correct.

The system has been so successful, it has shot itself in the foot: potential candidates for medical school turn away to other career options for several reasons, all repeating a common thread: medical school is too expensive, the clinical hours for it and residency are too long; the choice of specialty is often determined by potential salary, not necessarily where a doc is most needed, as in the case of primary care.

If the system continues to put its nose in the air - charging outrageous fees for education - after all, there is status in being a doc and don't they deserve special privileges? - then the pattern will continue to repeat itself.

What it will result in, is the creation of edcuational programs that break-up individual specialties - and the downfall of medical education as we now know it. You should only hope that these specialties are served by people who work in the medical field, i.e., nursing. Look what happened when the AMA tried to create the 'registered care technician' : it came back to bite them on the behind when it resulted in newbie
employees with no medical education and a six-week training program on the floors drawing blood, starting IVs, etc. A bad idea the AMA quickly shoved behind their skirts and forgot about. You cannot get the quality you need in six weeks, but you can get the quality you need w/o having people doing 80-100 hours/week residencies, also.

The reimbursement system is taxed to its limits and is ready to burst. When it does, we will have socialized medicine - and specialty-certified people to do more cheaply than what the doctors are forced to charge now. It won't cost as much to go to med school, because there will be no status in being a physician. It will be a profession no different than nursing, teaching, finance, business, etc.. already are in the rest of the world.

 

[devilpup]

The reimbursement system is taxed to its limits and is ready to burst. When it does, we will have socialized medicine - and specialty-certified people to do more cheaply than what the doctors are forced to charge now. It won't cost as much to go to med school, because there will be no status in being a physician. It will be a profession no different than nursing, teaching, finance, business, etc.. already are in the rest of the world.

Interesting point...

You remind me of the old prophet Ezekiel. I hope you are a false prophet. Although, there is a part in me that doubts it.

 

[Sunfire]

It won't cost as much to go to med school, because there will be no status in being a physician. It will be a profession no different than nursing, teaching, finance, business, etc.. already are in the rest of the world.

This part does ring true, however, from what I've heard. I was told that in the UK, being a doctor is a good job to be sure, but more of a common job, one that is less on a pedestal (i.e. the 'God" status) than it is here in the states. Perhaps that's only in regards to the primary care work (much like that which is often delegated to midlevels now), versus specialties, I don't know.

 

[patriots0000000]

yea actually im pretty sure that the class of 2012(my year) had the highest number of applicants as well as the highest average gpa and mcat scores.

 

[alpha62]

You guys are making this too complicated.

If you can't figure out who's pulling more juice in this country, I suggest you take your M.D. and an a freshly minted dork with a pocket protector-turned internet millionaire as his wingman into a bar.

See who gets laid first.

 

[MassEDRN]

I would not be surprised if it comes true, for many reasons.

1) NPs earn considerably less money than MDs, making them preferable in the eyes of managed care.

2) It is not politically correct to talk about "aptitude" "skill" or "intelligence." NPs (with a few exceptions) do not have the aptitude to make it into med school, but anyone who brings up this fact will be frowned upon for being "elitist" and "mean." (Do not expect any NP "board exams" to be anywhere near the USMLE in terms of content or difficulty.)
It's just mind boggling that because an individual chose the path of nursing, that somehow translates into not having the intelligence to get into med school. Please - don't be a jerk. Because this jerk of a NP happened to get your goat doesn't mean you need to spew that rudeness to the rest of the profession.

3) I could train a high school student to follow a protocol for DM or HTN care. As long as that is the metric by which we measure patient care, of course an NP will be just as good as an MD. An LPN would probably be just as good too.
Yeah, right. Let's put that into action, then, eh?
4) Nurses in are constantly exhorted to double-check MDs, be independent, never settle, always strive to become an NP. In other words, it is no longer acceptable in many circles to "just" be a nurse. I've met plenty of not-too-bright nurses with online degrees, who speak of their plans to become NPs as a matter of fact.
First of all, we wouldn't have to double-check the MD's if they did it right the first time. I can't tell you how many saves I've made because a doc either ordered something the patient was allergic to or forgot to order blood for a patient. Nurses constantly oversee others (as if the job isn't all encompassing enough) such as phlebotomy, RT, CNA's, dietary... to name a few. You think nurses want to assume docs responsibility as well (we have to, it's our job)?

I could go on, but... well, it gets even more depressing from there.

Yes, it would get more depressing from there. And I thought med schools might be churning out some informed young people to the healthcare realm.... hmph.

 

[MassEDRN]

Mundinger is delusional...

I've been doing this over 12 years, and have never been pushed, or even discussed the idea of being an NP...

I've been a nursing instructor, and never have I even discussed being an NP w/ a student (unless she brings up the idea of going from one year out of RN school, right into a master's program - I try to dissuade them from that - Bad plan)

I think 95% of nurses are content in being 'just nurses'

BTW, you may email her at:

[email protected]

her page:

http://cpmcnet.columbia.edu/dept/nursing/about-school/faculty/profiles/mundinger_mo.html

That is awesome!!!!

 

[oldManDO2009]

Yes, it would get more depressing from there. And I thought med schools might be churning out some informed young people to the healthcare realm.... hmph.

As a nurse in his senior year of medical school - I have been on both sides of this debate. Nurses do organize far to many unnecessary task to keep patients safe. Nurses and doctors both make mistakes no one is perfect.

I have a huge interest in health care informatics and believe (maybe its delusional) that a national heath care record and ID card would prevent unnecessary test, medication errors, and provide a more complete record (conspiracy theory - big brother people do not freak out!) and allow nurses to spend less time checking and arranging for care (which drove me nuts) and more time to...