How competitive is a DO in an MD's world?

[berrymuffin]

Ha ha. Just when I thought this thread doesn't get any better.

ur ridiculous - u have obviously no conviction in life, and get ur rocks off by telling ppl to give up. U should become a premed advisor.

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[group_theory]

That wasnt the point though. I have a plagiarism charge from 5 years ago.

That plagiarism charge will be your albatross, something that will keep you out of MANY MD and DO schools. Doesn't matter what your GPA is, because once you have an academic dishonesty accusation on your file/record, people will wonder whether you earn your GPA legitimately, or if you cheated in other situations (and just not have been caught in those situations).

It's a huge red flag for medical school admissions, and it is a huge red flag for residency selections too. From my experience in helping with ranking applicants for residency, people with academic dishonesty are either VERY low on the rank list (despite their impressive school records/test scores) or more often than not, booted off the rank list (not ranked).

Whether you have done enough to redeem yourself from that plagiarism charge is entirely up to the medical school admission committee, and each members have their own preferences (and each school have their own policies in regards to screen applications for those who have red flags). There is nothing special or different about DO schools compare to MD schools - each school is different.

 

[TriagePreMed]

That wasnt the point though. I have a plagiarism charge from 5 years ago.

Oh, it's pretty much game over. If it's not on the transcript, call the school and ask their academic dishonesty board about what's on record. Some schools delete the records completely. If that's your school, it would be stupid to admit to academic dishonesty.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You're fine with a 3.2. The average Osteopathic is 3.47. Your GPA still falls within the 10-90 range. If you have a GPA lower than 3.0, it could be a problem. The 30 is well above the average GPA.

Stat-wise he has a shot at one of the mid-level or newer DO schools, however with his plagiarism charge, I simply do not know.

 

[MythicDawn]

Stat-wise he has a shot at one of the mid-level or newer DO schools, however with his plagiarism charge, I simply do not know.

I second this. Mid-level is about right since competitive DOs need 3.5-3.6 GPA, especially with this plagiarism charge. I don't know, man. Tough. Call your school and ask them how serious the charge was.

 

[jinobi]

You keep thinking as if LizzyM's advice only applies to top-tier MD schools.

There are still many more applicants for DO schools than seats available. Also, you're ignoring the crux of this issue: both MD and DO schools aim to train competent and reliable physicians. DO schools do not turn a blind eye to academic dishonesty, and your plagiarism charge will affect your admissions process severely whether at a DO school or at a MD school.

What DO schools do have is a more lenient look at your GPA/MCAT, especially if you have significant life experiences and extracurricular activities.

 

[JaggerPlate]

When did MDs get a world? Is this like super mario style? I want a world???

 

[JESSFALLING]

I dont have any personal opinion on the "war between allo and osteo" The two letters are just a tool for me to do my will, not necessarily for prestige. That being said, I dont want to be looked at unfavorably for going to a school that might be a bit easier to get into vs. a school that i have to absolutely bust my butt to get into, and still might not have a chance.

I dont really know about DO, but I feel that that is the same problem the rest of the world shares. The hospital I worked at had about 3 DOs among the plethora of MDs and most ppl dont know about them. I dont want to be viewed as inferior due to my degree, when I know that I am just as intelligent and capable as an MD.

The quality of the training you receive during residency is MUCH more important than your choice of medical school.

 

[Dharma]

When did MDs get a world? Is this like super mario style? I want a world???

Warp Zone! Hit the invisible blocks; climb the vine to level 8-1!

 

[Lukat]

When did MDs get a world? Is this like super mario style? I want a world???

 

[SCAR17]

From my experience, the DO vs MD argument is pretty much dead in most circles. Yes, you still have a few MD's out there who look down on DO, but they are few and far between. I shadowed 3 DO's last year. One was working in a very successful GP with an MD, another is a highly respected orthopedic surgeon working in a practice full of MD's, and the final one was a fresh out of residency dermatologist working in a private office with about 12 other MD's. All of them said the fact they had DO after their name did not hinder them at all when it came to getting the residency and job they wanted. None of the MD's who worked with these folks discouraged me in any way of becoming a DO. They all said the same thing, regardless of the letters after their name, they all got the same training, took the same tests, and went through the same residencies. The owner of the dermatology practice posed this question to me "Do you think I would even waste my time interviewing a DO, much less hiring one, if they were inferior?"

 

[Temperature101]

agreed; physicians/the public will also judge your specialty and on a personal level, you need to be secure with yourself and your decisions.

The public won't know the difference between a radiologist and the community college radiation technologist...I know kids on facebook who state they are studying 'radiology' in community college. Most people have no idea a psychiatrist is an MD, and think it is an interchangeable term with psychologist. The general public may think anesthesia is a joke and that anyone can do it, and may confuse you with the nurse anesthetists. The FM guys might view the specialists as greedy and in it for the money. The Derm guys might see primary care as inferior docs academically. Some docs view EM as glorified triage nurses. Many in the general public will not appreciate your 8-12 years of training and hard work at all, and see doctors all as greedy, overpaid and only in it for the money.

So yes, some people will indeed judge your DO degree. But they'll also judge you for your specialty choice (probably moreso). At some point you have to balance the pros/cons of going the DO route in your situation (3-4 yrs more of schooling on a longshot MD versus your perceived stigma of attaining a DO). And so if you think it's worth spending that time improving, and it is your dream to be an MD, more power to you...but remember, it won't get you all the respect in the world and if you think no physician/staff/member of the community will ever look down or judge you for one reason or another, think again. Whatever you do, be happy with your choices, have thick skin, and buy a used truck to haul all your hard earned money straight to the bank.

 

[Darkskies]

that was for one of the top md programs in the country, where she is an adcomm

Did you already submit your application? If the plagiarism offense is not recorded on your transcript then doesn't that mean it's not official? Why would you mention it on your application then?

 

[ksmajmudar]

There ARE some real downsides to going this pathway...but they have nothing to do with prestige,competitiveness, etc.

If you can, I would also like to be on the PM list for this. Thanks!

 

[willen101383]

If you can, I would also like to be on the PM list for this. Thanks!

I am just going to post my opinions in a respectful professional way on here since I am tired of PMing people individually lol.

Basically just know that OMM IS going to be a significant part of your schooling whether you like it or not. Go in with an open mind and dont let what I am going to say deter you. I have had an extremely negative time with OMM. The department at my school is very malignant and I know for a fact most people in my class gave the department a very negative review on our course reviews...and we havent heard of any changes etc. The department heads CANNOT STAND that someone might not like OMM...and LOVE making comments like "have fun trying to pass boards if you dont care about my subject." Yeah....I sort of chose this fate by going to a DO school...but just because something is the way it is...doesnt mean that way is the right way....or the enjoyable way. I highly doubt any change will happen to the DO curricula any time in my lifetime, but the least I can do is warn prospective DO students that they really need to consider the whole picture when applying...and not just the "superficial" crap.
I gave OMM an open mind..but over the last year I learned that OMM is not for me. I dont enjoy doing it, I dont have good outcomes with it. It is just another area of medicine that I dont enjoy doing. I dread OMM labs, and having to study for OMM writtens. OMM writtens or practicals frequently fall on days either before or after your "real" course exams....and as a result you are either forced to delegate your studying more heavily toward one subject or another. And of course most modern day DO students focus on their core courses rather than OMM....which of course caused many people in my class to do poorly on OMM (I somehow ended up with a decent grade...not that I really care).

Basically just know that you MAY end up hating OMM...and yet you will be stuck learning it and it will be a significant part of your med school career. Furthermore you will be force fed the theory behind OMM that is VERY hard to swallow for someone who has trained in the sciences for a long time now. I am basically forced to learn stuff that I fully believe is hocus pocus type stuff...and it is really painful because it is fully at odds with my beliefs and modern day science. Granted OMM has its uses for musculoskeletal complaints..but it is NOT the panacea that the DO department wants you to believe.

I am just very at odds with the way DO education is being taught at my school...and handled by the AOA and accrediting agencies. Cranial, a subject that has never been shown to be an effective treatment is still taught, and still shows up on the boards. The AOA is so stuck in the past and cannot possibly move osteopathic medicine into the future until they recognize that most DO students will NEVER use OMM again after they graduate...and fully have integrated with our MD counterparts. Why focus on keeping DOs apart...when the overwhelming majority wants to integrate with allopathic medicine? I posted about the incoming president of the AOA in another thread and I will reiterate it here since it so perfectly exemplifies the stance of the AOA. When I was in DC supporting the AOA for DO day on the hill I asked the incoming president where he went to medical school. He replied that "i didnt go to medical school." After a long pause he said "I went to osteopathic medical school." After which we were lectured on our lack of DO pride etc for not calling ourselves osteopathic medical students instead of just "medical students." Anyways, that is my issue...take it with a grain of salt because you might end up having a completely different experience. I love the traditional medical education at my school and think the curriculum is great. I think that people considering the DO pathway really need to focus on what their experience IN medical school would be like..rather than the off chance that they may not match into the residency of their choice or how they will be viewed by patients/other providers. Both these issues are, of course, something to consider...but shouldnt really be the main thing you are focusing on.

Aside from the OMM part..the mainstream stuff is equivalent. I feel as though I am getting an excellent education and am being adequately prepared for boards. The faculty are nice, the other students are not really cutthroat or gunnerish.

TL: DR

I think that if you enjoy OMM DO school will go smoothly for you. But if you are indifferent or downright dislike it...things may be rather annoying for you and OMM MAY impact your ability to do as well in your core classes. You will be stuck training in OMM because OMM still appears on the boards and the powers that be still are so far in the past that they will not acknowledge the desires of the modern day DO grad. Furthermore your dislike and nondesire to learn OMM may cause you to become jaded and wish you were at an allo school (in my case).

 

[FIREitUP]

I am just going to post my opinions in a respectful professional way on here since I am tired of PMing people individually lol.

Basically just know that OMM IS going to be a significant part of your schooling whether you like it or not. Go in with an open mind and dont let what I am going to say deter you. I have had an extremely negative time with OMM. The department at my school is very malignant and I know for a fact most people in my class gave the department a very negative review on our course reviews...and we havent heard of any changes etc. The department heads CANNOT STAND that someone might not like OMM...and LOVE making comments like "have fun trying to pass boards if you dont care about my subject." Yeah....I sort of chose this fate by going to a DO school...but just because something is the way it is...doesnt mean that way is the right way....or the enjoyable way. I highly doubt any change will happen to the DO curricula any time in my lifetime, but the least I can do is warn prospective DO students that they really need to consider the whole picture when applying...and not just the "superficial" crap.
I gave OMM an open mind..but over the last year I learned that OMM is not for me. I dont enjoy doing it, I dont have good outcomes with it. It is just another area of medicine that I dont enjoy doing. I dread OMM labs, and having to study for OMM writtens. OMM writtens or practicals frequently fall on days either before or after your "real" course exams....and as a result you are either forced to delegate your studying more heavily toward one subject or another. And of course most modern day DO students focus on their core courses rather than OMM....which of course caused many people in my class to do poorly on OMM (I somehow ended up with a decent grade...not that I really care).

Basically just know that you MAY end up hating OMM...and yet you will be stuck learning it and it will be a significant part of your med school career. Furthermore you will be force fed the theory behind OMM that is VERY hard to swallow for someone who has trained in the sciences for a long time now. I am basically forced to learn stuff that I fully believe is hocus pocus type stuff...and it is really painful because it is fully at odds with my beliefs and modern day science. Granted OMM has its uses for musculoskeletal complaints..but it is NOT the panacea that the DO department wants you to believe.

I am just very at odds with the way DO education is being taught at my school...and handled by the AOA and accrediting agencies. Cranial, a subject that has never been shown to be an effective treatment is still taught, and still shows up on the boards. The AOA is so stuck in the past and cannot possibly move osteopathic medicine into the future until they recognize that most DO students will NEVER use OMM again after they graduate...and fully have integrated with our MD counterparts. Why focus on keeping DOs apart...when the overwhelming majority wants to integrate with allopathic medicine? I posted about the incoming president of the AOA in another thread and I will reiterate it here since it so perfectly exemplifies the stance of the AOA. When I was in DC supporting the AOA for DO day on the hill I asked the incoming president where he went to medical school. He replied that "i didnt go to medical school." After a long pause he said "I went to osteopathic medical school." After which we were lectured on our lack of DO pride etc for not calling ourselves osteopathic medical students instead of just "medical students." Anyways, that is my issue...take it with a grain of salt because you might end up having a completely different experience. I love the traditional medical education at my school and think the curriculum is great. I think that people considering the DO pathway really need to focus on what their experience IN medical school would be like..rather than the off chance that they may not match into the residency of their choice or how they will be viewed by patients/other providers. Both these issues are, of course, something to consider...but shouldnt really be the main thing you are focusing on.

Aside from the OMM part..the mainstream stuff is equivalent. I feel as though I am getting an excellent education and am being adequately prepared for boards. The faculty are nice, the other students are not really cutthroat or gunnerish.

TL: DR

I think that if you enjoy OMM DO school will go smoothly for you. But if you are indifferent or downright dislike it...things may be rather annoying for you and OMM MAY impact your ability to do as well in your core classes. You will be stuck training in OMM because OMM still appears on the boards and the powers that be still are so far in the past that they will not acknowledge the desires of the modern day DO grad. Furthermore your dislike and nondesire to learn OMM may cause you to become jaded and wish you were at an allo school (in my case).

Yeah Marty is kind of an arrogant dick. If OMS should be proud to distinguish themselves as osteopathic medical students, then should I, as an allopathic medical student make that same distinction? There's no reason to create this distinction when in practice there is basically no difference in how DO's and MD's practice. It's unfortunate that the osteopathic leadership has such a fragile ego that they refuse to admit that most of their students realize that their "wholistic approach" and OMM are their excuses for being different, when in reality, it is the admissions standards they hold their applicants to.

 

[Mbeas]

TL; but DID read

Well, I'm sure everyone here (myself included) appreciates your honesty. I do find it funny, though, that so many "osteopathic medical students" make the claim that OMM is not a significant portion of their curriculum, and that they only spend 30 mins. a week studying for it. From your standpoint, it seems that OMM is a much more significant drain on the medical school experience than the other superficial claims that other OMS's make.

I do have qualms about this:

I think that people considering the DO pathway really need to focus on what their experience IN medical school would be like..rather than the off chance that they may not match into the residency of their choice or how they will be viewed by patients/other providers. Both these issues are, of course, something to consider...but shouldnt really be the main thing you are focusing on.

.

I don't want to put words in your mouth or take the bolded words out of context (which is basically what I am doing lol), but this almost sounds like support for the Caribbean. My experience on a Caribbean island may be amazing: studying on the beach, scuba diving, etc. But, I would trade those things for a better chance at the residency of my choice. Anyways, don't take this as a personal attack, I was just wondering if you could expand on the bolded.

From your post, it doesn't appear that you regret your decision to go to an "osteopathic medical school", but that you have issues with the current goals, policies, etc. of the AOA (understandably). The DO degree is so quickly defended on SDN, so it's interesting to see a different analysis straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[willen101383]

Well, I'm sure everyone here (myself included) appreciates your honesty. I do find it funny, though, that so many "osteopathic medical students" make the claim that OMM is not a significant portion of their curriculum, and that they only spend 30 mins. a week studying for it. From your standpoint, it seems that OMM is a much more significant drain on the medical school experience than the other superficial claims that other OMS's make.

I do have qualms about this:

.

I don't want to put words in your mouth or take the bolded words out of context (which is basically what I am doing lol), but this almost sounds like support for the Caribbean. My experience on a Caribbean island may be amazing: studying on the beach, scuba diving, etc. But, I would trade those things for a better chance at the residency of my choice. Anyways, don't take this as a personal attack, I was just wondering if you could expand on the bolded.

From your post, it doesn't appear that you regret your decision to go to an "osteopathic medical school", but that you have issues with the current goals, policies, etc. of the AOA (understandably). The DO degree is so quickly defended on SDN, so it's interesting to see a different analysis straight from the horse's mouth.

I didnt really intend on supporting carribbean over DO...since I clearly think DO is a better option...hence why I went DO. I just think that people need to consider the fact that OMM IS a significant part of the curriculum and if you have any qualms about OMM you should probably reconsider what sort of education you want to get. I was 100 percent open minded and gung ho about the OMM stuff as a pre DO student...but quickly realized OMM wasnt for me.

As far as the time commitment OMM needs...it IS relatively small. At my school we have 1.5 hours of lab and perhaps a lecture hour or two a week. The issue I have is that I simply dont enjoy it so ANY commitment to a subject I dont want to learn and dont see myself using after graduation is too much of a commitment for me. So its more of a happiness thing rather than a time commitment thing.

The place where OMM gets in the way is when we have multiple tests in one week and you are forced to either study less for your "real" class...or study less for OMM and potentially fail the exam (and at my school you need a 70+ on all the writtens in order to pass the course)....and the writtens are where the real "hocus pocus'y" stuff comes into play which is why so many students in my class fail them. Another place OMM sucks...is when you just busted your ass for multiple finals in a row..and then rather than relaxing after your last final...you have to bust your ass studying for an OMM written that MAY hold you back from passing OMM (the reality for myself this past year..as well as MANY of my classmates...I did end up pulling that written average over a 70 and passing OMM this year).

Another issue of mine with the OMM dept (although this is school specific) is that students EASILY get 90+ on every OMM practical...and routinely fail the writtens. Even me, as someone who hates OMM and sucks at it...had no problem pulling 95+ on every practical. So rather than figure out WHY students fail the writtens and do well on the practicals...the dept initiated their asinine "writtens must be above 70% regardless of practical grades" policy.


So again, please take my bitching and reviews of my school with a grain of salt..because it may be totally different for you. Jagger for example loves OMM as far as ive read. It might be interesting to have his honest opinions of the subject in this thread as a contrast to mine.

 

[willen101383]

Just wanted to reiterate: the educational aspect of my school for the mainstream stuff is GREAT. We have professors from local allo schools who teach at my school and we havent really had a professor yet who didnt know what they were doing. I definitely dont really regret going to my school vs an allo...but I just feel as though I would be a better fit at an allo school since I dont really like/see myself using OMM. And it is most CERTAINLY a better option than going to a caribbean school. At least at most DO schools you know what you are getting: a solid education, a solid chance of matching into your specialty of choice, a chance to fail a class and not be booted without question, and a great alumni base/name recognition (for pcom anyway).

 

[drctother]

Bring on jagger! A second OMS opinion from an honest person would make for a good discussion

 

[Mbeas]

..........I didnt really intend on supporting carribbean over DO...since I clearly think DO is a better option...hence why I went DO. I just think that people need to consider the fact that OMM IS a significant part of the curriculum and if you have any qualms about OMM you should ..........

...........Just wanted to reiterate: the educational aspect of my school for the mainstream stuff is GREAT. We have professors from local allo schools ....

Strong posts, willen. Thanks for the insight.

 

[Mbeas]

Bring on jagger! A second OMS opinion from an honest person would make for a good discussion

+1

Obviously, OMM isn't for everyone. It would be nice to hear a second opinion, though.

 

[willen101383]

+1

Obviously, OMM isn't for everyone. It would be nice to hear a second opinion, though.

Agreed! I know he is into OMM so it would be good to hear how someone liking OMM can change their perspective on the DO route (which is a great route for many people..myself included...it just has its downsides as we all know).

Its nice to have a refreshing convo about OMM where people dont have to be on the defensive. Its a lot easier to discuss the downsides of the DO route when some douchebag pre allo isnt totally attacking you and you feel the need to be defensive.

 

[sublm128]

Just wanted to reiterate: the educational aspect of my school for the mainstream stuff is GREAT. We have professors from local allo schools who teach at my school and we havent really had a professor yet who didnt know what they were doing. I definitely dont really regret going to my school vs an allo...but I just feel as though I would be a better fit at an allo school since I dont really like/see myself using OMM. And it is most CERTAINLY a better option than going to a caribbean school. At least at most DO schools you know what you are getting: a solid education, a solid chance of matching into your specialty of choice, a chance to fail a class and not be booted without question, and a great alumni base/name recognition (for pcom anyway).

g

 

[sublm128]

Agreed! I know he is into OMM so it would be good to hear how someone liking OMM can change their perspective on the DO route (which is a great route for many people..myself included...it just has its downsides as we all know).

Its nice to have a refreshing convo about OMM where people dont have to be on the defensive. Its a lot easier to discuss the downsides of the DO route when some douchebag pre allo isnt totally attacking you and you feel the need to be defensive.

gee thanks, lol

 

[Mbeas]

Bring on jagger! A second OMS opinion from an honest person would make for a good discussion

Well, he has been summoned.

 

[willen101383]

gee thanks, lol

damn it! I wasnt referring to you OP lol.

I think thats the 2nd time today someone has yelled at me for attacking them..even tho I wasnt.

That statement was a generic one to allo douchebag preallos that feel the need to bash others...rather than discuss things in a responsible mature way.

Hell, im not going to open up about my thoughts on anything if someone is going to spread false truths about it and bash my career path (especially someone who was in middle school when I finished undergrad)

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well, he has been summoned.

Well, if Kirksvile looks anywhere as good as that, then I should probably consider applying to KCOM.

 

[Mbeas]

Well, if Kirksvile looks anywhere as good as that, then I should probably consider applying to KCOM.

good point

 

[LifeTake2]

ur ridiculous - u have obviously no conviction in life, and get ur rocks off by telling ppl to give up. U should become a premed advisor.

I normally don't reply to personal attacks (didn't think they were allowed here...hmmm)

BUT:

Firstly I would strongly suggest YOU learn to write. This isn't twitter or a text message.

Secondly, if I had a lack of conviction I wouldn't have quit a job to purse medicine that paid better than what you will make IF you succeed at being a FM doctor.

Third, I don't get my 'rocks' off telling anyone to give up, nor did I tell the OP to. I keep such activities to between my wife & I; to whom by the way I've been married to longer than you've been able to go to a PG-13 movie without your mom's permission.

Finally, you might be right on the last point. It would probably be helpful to both adcoms and tons of poor kids if pre-med advisers were more realistic. Given the acceptance rates way too many people are applying to medical school that are just throwing away money. Maybe an adviser interested in helping them rather than propping up their self-esteem might be a good thing.

 

[sublm128]

damn it! I wasnt referring to you OP lol.

I think thats the 2nd time today someone has yelled at me for attacking them..even tho I wasnt.

That statement was a generic one to allo douchebag preallos that feel the need to bash others...rather than discuss things in a responsible mature way.

Hell, im not going to open up about my thoughts on anything if someone is going to spread false truths about it and bash my career path (especially someone who was in middle school when I finished undergrad)

Yeah I know, I was just messing with you. I dont think Im allo, Im still undecided. I mean thats the entire reason I started this post. Im new to this entire forum business, and its pretty clear that I didnt understand basic forum etiquette, lol.

After all I just found out what trolling actually meant, and all along people thought this thread was a troll tactic. Though I must admit I did have many misconceptions regarding the equality of MDs and DOs scope of practice.

 

[sublm128]

I normally don't reply to personal attacks (didn't think they were allowed here...hmmm)

BUT:

Firstly I would strongly suggest YOU learn to write. This isn't twitter or a text message.

Secondly, if I had a lack of conviction I wouldn't have quit a job to purse medicine that paid better than what you will make IF you succeed at being a FM doctor.

Third, I don't get my 'rocks' off telling anyone to give up, nor did I tell the OP to. I keep such activities to between my wife & I; to whom by the way I've been married to longer than you've been able to go to a PG-13 movie without your mom's permission.

Finally, you might be right on the last point. It would probably be helpful to both adcoms and tons of poor kids if pre-med advisers were more realistic. Given the acceptance rates way too many people are applying to medical school that are just throwing away money. Maybe an adviser interested in helping them rather than propping up their self-esteem might be a good thing.

Ok.

I apologize for the personal insult - I was in a bad place, what with the barrage of negative comments from premeds, due to an issue I probably created. Sorry.

A.) Its not from a lack of writing skill, Im just used to texting a lot so I figured that was acceptable here.

B.) Pretty harsh, dont you think? You dont know that I want to go into FM. I actually dont. The whole reason I started this thread was because I was contemplating specializing (transplant surgery, bariatric surgery, etc.), and I had heard that DOs dont specialize as much as MDs do due to competition. I mean can you really blame me for being concerned about this? Its four years of my life and over $300K with everything considered. I wasnt actually trying to start a war here.

C.) Fine, point taken; +1

D.) Unfortunately, very true. Still, I gotta try.

 

[Mbeas]

Yeah I know, I was just messing with you. I dont think Im allo, Im still undecided. I mean thats the entire reason I started this post. Im new to this entire forum business, and its pretty clear that I didnt understand basic forum etiquette, lol.

After all I just found out what trolling actually meant, and all along people thought this thread was a troll tactic. Though I must admit I did have many misconceptions regarding the equality of MDs and DOs scope of practice.

Unfortunately, you are not alone.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Hahahah okay, so I've been summoned and because someone used the bat signal ... I'll definitely throw in my .02. HOWEVER ... I haven't been following the thread very well - what's the exact question you guys are looking for input on??

 

[sublm128]

damn it! I wasnt referring to you OP lol.

I think thats the 2nd time today someone has yelled at me for attacking them..even tho I wasnt.

That statement was a generic one to allo douchebag preallos that feel the need to bash others...rather than discuss things in a responsible mature way.

Hell, im not going to open up about my thoughts on anything if someone is going to spread false truths about it and bash my career path (especially someone who was in middle school when I finished undergrad)

lol, I think Ill make that my signature..."allo douchebag preallo".

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hahahah okay, so I've been summoned and because someone used the bat signal ... I'll definitely throw in my .02. HOWEVER ... I haven't been following the thread very well - what's the exact question you guys are looking for input on??

Your opinion of OMM and its place in modern medical education.
Whether or not OMM can really make or break someones experience at a DO school.
Your opinion of the AOA and Dr. Levine's performance at the recent DO lobbying convention in D.C.

I think I got it all....

 

[TriagePreMed]

Your opinion of OMM and its place in modern medical education.
Whether or not OMM can really make or break someones experience at a DO school.
Your opinion of the AOA and Dr. Levine's performance at the recent DO lobbying convention in D.C.

I think I got it all....

And what flavor of Doritos does he prefer.

 

[willen101383]

Your opinion of OMM and its place in modern medical education.
Whether or not OMM can really make or break someones experience at a DO school.
Your opinion of the AOA and Dr. Levine's performance at the recent DO lobbying convention in D.C.

I think I got it all....

I know that you enjoy OMM jagger....so I thought it would create more wholesome searchable thread regarding OMM and things premeds should actually concern themselves with..rather than the typical BS issues they focus so heavily on when considering DO schools. It is pretty one sided right now with regard to my negative experiences with OMM and the way it is taught at my school.

 

[patel2]

I know that you enjoy OMM jagger....so I thought it would create more wholesome searchable thread regarding OMM and things premeds should actually concern themselves with..rather than the typical BS issues they focus so heavily on when considering DO schools. It is pretty one sided right now with regard to my negative experiences with OMM and the way it is taught at my school.

Found some footage of jagger giving his take on OMM to balance out your perspective

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[FutureDr8429033]

Found some footage of jagger giving his take on OMM to balance out your perspective

[YOUTUBE]BvTNyKIGXiI[/YOUTUBE]

You should get a trophy for this.

 

[KTownGT]

That wasnt the point though. I have a plagiarism charge from 5 years ago.

The problem is, you will be competing against people with similar stats, and no plagarism charge.

 

[KTownGT]

OMS making sure they have pride just rings of black Americans referring to themselves as "African Americans" instead of just Americans.

It sounds ******ed for vanilla faces to tell people they are European Americans, as much as DO's calling themselves OMS.

 

[willen101383]

OMS making sure they have pride just rings of black Americans referring to themselves as "African Americans" instead of just Americans.

It sounds ******ed for vanilla faces to tell people they are European Americans, as much as DO's calling themselves OMS.

Well I suggest you call up the AOA because apparently they dont think thats the case...

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Well I suggest you call up the AOA because apparently they dont think thats the case...

SDN DO's and other sympathetic groups need to start a grass-roots campaign against the archaic policies of the AOA. I think they will listen if over a hundred people tell them to stop playing around and hurting DO students abilities to practice.

 

[KTownGT]

Well I suggest you call up the AOA because apparently they dont think thats the case...

Well, they also believe that pushing on fused bone(Cranial) has benefits.

 

[willen101383]

Well, they also believe that pushing on fused bone(Cranial) has benefits.

Yeah...I honestly think they are a lost cause at this point...until our or perhaps the next generation up from us gets into leadership positions. Its unfortunate but why would they listen to a bunch of DO students...when our ideas would basically abolish the false distinction they have been trying to create for forever now?

 

[patel2]

Yeah...I honestly think they are a lost cause at this point...until our or perhaps the next generation up from us gets into leadership positions. Its unfortunate but why would they listen to a bunch of DO students...when our ideas would basically abolish the false distinction they have been trying to create for forever now?

maybe this will happen but probably not. I see the 5% of DO students in each class that are really gung-ho about OMM or want to opt for OMM residencies will be the ones most likely to get involved with the AOA, join medical school OMM depts, and will be the new leaders of the AOA tomorrow.

The other 95% who don't care about the false distinction of 'osteopathic principles compared to an MD' may just go on to do allopathic residencies (or DO residencies) and just forget about the AOA (seeing them as loons they don't want anything to do with) and they will fade away into private practice as a physician. Thus, even a newer generation of DOs may not affect any political change, while that vocal 5% minority of the new DOs who provide 'unique, holistic treatment of body, through techniques like cranial' will be the new AOA leaders, providing more of the same.

 

[TriagePreMed]

maybe this will happen but probably not. I see the 5% of DO students in each class that are really gung-ho about OMM or want to opt for OMM residencies will be the ones most likely to get involved with the AOA, join medical school OMM depts, and will be the new leaders of the AOA tomorrow.

The other 95% who don't care about the false distinction of 'osteopathic principles compared to an MD' may just go on to do allopathic residencies (or DO residencies) and just forget about the AOA (seeing them as loons they don't want anything to do with) and they will fade away into private practice as a physician. Thus, even a newer generation of DOs may not affect any political change, while that vocal 5% minority of the new DOs who provide 'unique, holistic treatment of body, through techniques like cranial' will be the new AOA leaders, providing more of the same.

Science estimates that it takes about a generation for biases to disappear. Even these 5% of students are having to grow around the 95% that don't care about it. Eventually some of them going to have to test it and change it.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Okay, so sorry for the delay, but my $.02 (for whatever it's worth) has been request ...

Your opinion of OMM and its place in modern medical education.

It's no secret that I've waved the DO banner for a long time on this site. I've been interested in OMM since I was a pre-medical student, I went into medical school interested in it, and I'm still interested in it today.

As far as whether or not it has a place in modern medical education - I definitely think that it does ... but please keep reading. Medical education is a funny thing in my very limited opinion. You learn a lot of stuff and even in the early stages of pre-clinical course work, there is stuff that I can tell will be more relevant that others.

Do I think learning how to microscopically identify and name all the layers of the epidermis during a histology image exam has a place in modern medical education? Of course. Do I think it's as relevant as learning about ECGs and MIs in physiology? In a general sense, no ... I do not.

OMM is a subject (and is even further broken down into smaller units and subsets just like any other course), and like any other subject there are pieces of it that are more relevant than others and, to be frank, entire subjects and courses that are likely more relevant in general medical practice. Do I still think it has a place in modern medical education? Yes. Do I think it's technically "as important" as gross anatomy, physiology, biochemistry? In a general sense ... no, I do not.

Having said that, OMM is a solid course and it's principles stretch a lot further than some individuals give it credit for. I can't even count the various number of times it overlapped with anatomy, physiology, etc, (KCOM is big on this integration) and I definitely see it's implications on an education level. Furthermore, I think it's a very good course as far as early "hands on," clinical interactions are concerned as you will be palpating your buddies within the first few weeks and performing code-able medical procedures (in the form of manipulation) very early in your medical career.

However, (and I'll touch on these issues various times) one issue that I think a lot of people have with OMM is that in many cases the above "perspective/importance" outline I harked on above isn't followed or respected. What I mean by that is that I think most DO students see OMM in the following, respectful (in my opinion) light: it's a good complementary treatment that has a place in certain musculoskeletal complaints and can really help certain patients without a lot of time, effort, or money. Unfortunately, my personal opinion is that OMM professors (in certain instances) don't see it this way ...

You can't blame them; every professor thinks their particular course or subject is the most important sect of information you'll cover in medical school. However, OMM professors dedicate their lives to the art and science of Osteopathic manipulation and they are masters. However, because of this, many times a lot of emphasis is placed on the "cure all" aspects of OMM and I think when not integrating the techniques with sound medical principles or overselling the use of OMM (as all medical procedures are good in some cases and not useful in others) occurs, people get frustrated and this type of teaching/information isn't conducive to modern medical education.

Finally, there are definitely certain aspects of OMM that from a modern education, scientific, logical point of view upset EVERYONE (just about) and I personally believe these parts of the OMM curriculum do not have a place in modern medical education. The most obvious example (and the one that I personally believe needs to be reevaluated) is cranial osteopathy. It's difficult to describe to those who haven't sat through cranial lectures and practiced/studied the cranial techniques, but from a STRICT concrete, scientific point of view: various aspects of cranial OMM are not backed by anatomical science, peer reviewed research, sound physiology principles, or recorded results (the anecdotal, "do it because I've seen it work" stories have no place in science) and it should be greatly modified and removed from the curriculum until the point where it's undeniably proven.

In this sense, this aspect of OMM seems to struggle to find a place in modern medical education, and I think streamlining and reevaluation is necessary. Should this condemn OMM as a whole? No, I do not believe so.

Additionally, as a personal aside, I have no problem learning the historical aspects of cranial OMM, reading about the techniques, the research, and the theories behind it, but learning it in a practical setting just didn't seem useful in my opinion. Additionally, if I were in charge of the future of cranial OMM, I would dedicate all efforts to showing it's basic effectiveness (minus palpating any sort of rhythmic pulse) in alleviating issues by adjusting cranial bones in infants. The most impressive evidence I saw with cranial OMM was all in infant patients.

Whether or not OMM can really make or break someones experience at a DO school.

Like I said before, OMM is a subject, just like anatomy or physiology, that you have to pass to get through medical school. Some people love anatomy and hate biochem. These individual suffer through biochem, pass, and move on, but it doesn't mean that not loving biochemistry makes them a lesser physician, nor does not loving OMM make anyone a worse physician, DO, etc.

As far as "making or breaking" someone's experience, I think it has much more potential to make than break.

I think breaking an experience is a strong word. OMM can greatly annoy people. Like I said before, it's a class and studying and practicing for a class that you personally don't enjoy or find overtly interesting is annoying. However, this doesn't mean that this one course (even if you do it for two years) is going to "break" your medical school experience and leave you on the verge of dropping out. Furthermore, I think you'd be hard pressed to find DO attendings who, when questioned about medical school, immediately rant on how much they disliked OMM.

Having said that, when you have to attend frequent OMM labs, study for practical, quizzes, and tests, it can be a hindrance to those who don't enjoy it. Additionally, I think these students become even more annoyed/disenfranchised when the people teaching he courses are very excited about OMM and possibly oversell some of it's merit (which, don't get me wrong, is still there and still valuable).

Additionally, I don't think there is ANYTHING wrong with students who enter DO school interested in OMM, give it their best shot, and don't enjoy it or see themselves using it. It doesn't make you any less of a DO or physician or whatever, it just means that subject wasn't your cup of tea and you aren't going to utilize it.

Furthermore, I'll be 100% honest with you and state that even as a student who likes OMM (a lot), there were definitely times (like a few others have said) where OMM has "bad timing" and you'll have some sort of practical a day before a big chunk of other tests. This is always tough, and I think even the most Osteopathic medical students curse tenderpoints on these long nights.

As far as "making" your medical education is concerned ...

If you're really into OMM (and I mean really into OMM) it does offer a lot of unique opportunities. For example, you can always pursue a pre-doctoral fellowship in OMM and really work on becoming proficient with the osteopathic manipulation techniques. Additionally, a lot of AOA residencies (like the FP residencies) are good about integrating OMM and now all residency trained DOs have the opportunity to do the "plus one" year, so there are a lot of chances to take OMM to a proficient and professional level if it "made" your medical school experience.

Furthermore, if you're a student like me who really likes it, but maybe doesn't quite see themselves doing a pre-doctoral fellowship or adding a year on to residency, it can really be a "make" point because you have the opportunity to practice it and become "good enough" (KCOM Uray joke if any 2013 or 2014s read this incessant rant) you can use it quite a bit.

Your opinion of the AOA and Dr. Levine's performance at the recent DO lobbying convention in D.C.

I'm not sure what Dr. Levine said or did at the convention in D.C., but a lot of the times speeches or public appearances on this level are more of a public relations or political sentiment and I'm sure he spread the "DO word" and represented our profession in a positive light (though if you have any specific instances you can explain and want comments on ... feel free to elaborate).

My opinion of the AOA ...

I've been accused of being too "pro AOA" on this site before, but I don't think that's the case. Altogether though, I do "like" the AOA (gasp), and I think they do a lot for our profession, especially when you compare it to a group like the AMA.

The AOA has done a good job with the osteopathic profession from a lot of various standpoints - they've greatly increased the number and visibility of DOs; they've kept our foot in the much needed ACGME residency door; they've worked hard to keep achieving pretty impressive things for new DOs (take the VSAS situation for example - could have been a slow nightmare for ACGME residency opportunities, and they stepped up and fixed this); and from a strictly administrative point of view, they are very good at keeping themselves financially stable and increasing membership (though many people could make arguments as to how they get this done).

Furthermore, I've always felt like the AOA has a personal investment in the future of DOs, and even if people disagree with their motives, I think we can all take some comfort in the fact that they will keep themselves chugging along, which means that "we" will stay strong as well.

Having said all that, I do have similar complaints about the AOA that various other individuals share: the school/class size expansion with respect to the number of AOA residencies is just unacceptable. Technically, this has a lot to do with COCA (which works closely with the AOA, but isn't really under their control) and I do respect the fact that people like Dr. Nichols are doing what they can to expand this, but the fact of the matter is that we need to bump this up and expansion should cease until the number are more comparable.

Additionally, I do have issues with certain rates of DO expansion (though, again, this is a double sided coin and it really depends on where you're sitting), I wish certain issues that are expressed by the DO community were reviewed more seriously, etc, etc.

It's not a perfect organization (no big political or lobbying group is by far), but I think it's demonized unfairly from time to time (especially on issues that are out of their hands or controlled by much bigger fish) and it does do a lot of good for the profession in my opinion. HOWEVER, having said that, remember that while I've sat for a year of OMM and feel comfortable commenting on that, I'm, very new to the "DO profession" game and my opinions can change as time goes on. Remember to heed the sage advice of residents and attendings as well (and probably above my own).

And what flavor of Doritos does he prefer.

Cool Ranch ... no doubt.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvTNyKIGXiI[/YOUTUBE]

Win.


I hope this was helpful/what you were looking for.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I just read Willen's initial response and wanted to add a few things:

-I think Willen did a good job summarizing his points, and I don't think any of this should be held against him at all. Like he said, he thinks the education he's receiving is excellent and on par with MD students, and he did go into OMM with an open mind and didn't like it. Furthermore, I do feel bad that it's impacting his experience. Medical school is rough in a lot of ways, and it wouldn't be any easier with something continually rearing its head.

-However, I am a bit confused on how much time is spent on OMM/OMM studying at your particular school. At KCOM, the school and OMM department pride themselves on the amount of OMM we have in the curriculum. Essentially, we usually have 4 hours a week in labs, have regular practical and written exams, have quizzes, have a big final that involves models, a practical, and a written exam spread out over different days, and a huge, amazing OMM lab (our lab really is awesome and we utilize it for a lot of different things), and even with all this, I still don't feel like the amount of time dedicated to OMM is too much.

Like I said in my previous post, times when "OMM stuff" falls right before traditional med school exams is NOT fun ... and even the students who really like OMM aren't fans of this. However, on just a general weekly basis, I don't think OMM really ever messed with my normal studying and labs were always in the mornings before lectures (I attend lecture though, so it could be different for people who don't), and didn't affect my studying time either. Again, I'm sorry to hear about this, but I feel like my program is very, very involved with OMM and it just didn't cause the interruptions described in the post.

-I also wanted to touch on grades in OMM ... like Willen said, even if you aren't an OMM master, you'll do well in OMM. Most of the professors are very understanding about how long it can take to develop palpatory skills and even how subjective some of the diagnoses can be, and my experience is that if you try and learn the stuff ... you'll do fine. However, I do think certain professors/table trainers become irritated or frustrated (understandably) if they can tell you just aren't even putting in the minimal effort, so I do suggest demonstrating to them that you're giving it your best and doing what you can to learn and practice the techniques ... and you'll do well.

-Additionally, as far as what was said to you at the AOA convention, I definitely understand why this would be upsetting or seem like certain individuals aren't looking toward the future, but keep a few things in mind: 1. This gentlemen is a high ranking professional with the American OSTEOPATHIC Association ... he's going to be very pro-DO; 2. I do believe Dr. Levine (if that's who you spoke to) is the President elect (I think Dr. Nichols still has a bit of time left), meaning he's new and very gung-ho; 3. This was essentially a DO pride convention ... this type of "spirit" is to be expected. Granted, I completely understand what you're saying, but I also think some of the above explanations could have had something to do with it.

-As far as not going to a DO school because of OMM ... I don't agree with this. Like I said ad nauseum, OMM is a subject that DOs take and MDs don't. Plain and simple. You have to take it for 2 years ... know this, but I just don't see it as a reason not to attend a DO program if you love it for everything else. I personally know people who hate OMM, but are still very pleased with their school choice and are still doing very well because of everything else that they enjoy about the program.

-I also wanted to touch on a few of your comments with the OMM department ...

From my experience (and what I've heard from other students), even if people don't like OMM, they generally enjoy the OMM docs. They seem to be a very easy going, non-confrontational, respectful group of people, and I really had good experiences with our OMM department. Having said that, keep in mind that my comments were made based of our OMM department and although I do think most of the docs/departments are somewhat like this, it's ALL going to be a case-by-case basis, and it sounds like it's not the best situation in the initial post (again, sorry to hear this).