How do we end discrimination of the DO?

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As someone who is trying to decide between going to an MD school and a DO school I am flabbergasted at the apparent blatant discriminatory practices by top residency programs and specialties. I would think in this very progressive age where we are trying to liberate all from discrimination the institution of medicine would not still have these discriminatory practices.

DO's are taught the exact same curriculum as MD's, they are exactly as qualified and when DO's score equivalent or better than their MD's counterpart there is no logical reason to weigh their merit less because of being educated at a DO school. DO's should be judged on their merits not their degree, especially since they come from U.S. institutions.

How do we end these practices? How do we make the medical community and powers that be aware so that change can be brought? Let MD's and DO's band together to end this!

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Residencies are meritocracies. The moment DO schools start attracting the nation's top talent, DO schools will start sending their graduates to top residencies. Top MD programs have just more to offer the top ~25% of students, who are likely to be interested in being at major US cities, being in an environment that promotes research, wanting to learn from the leaders in the field, etc. all of which DO schools do not offer with the same degree of consistency as top MD programs.

You should be happy to know that no one in the real world cares if you are an MD or a DO.
 
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Selecting between candidates based on their educational background is not "discrimination".

As an analogy, would you consider an employer hiring a Harvard grad over an Eastern Tennessee state grad discrimination? No. Your academic credentials are a legitimate part of your CV on which you are evaluated.
 
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Friend, as an incoming OSM-I, I know this is a concern many of us share. However, for now, it remains unproductive to debate "MD vs DO". For better or worse, many of the concerns that residency programs have regarding osteopathic schools are legitimate ones, with the most important one being strength of clinical rotations. Compared to the MD schools, the newer DO (not counting the big 5 or state schools) have pretty sub-par rotations. It is only with time that these schools can improve in that regard and started to be viewed as legitimate, as many of the established DO schools are.

The best thing you can do is to crush med school and make a name for yourself as a DO, so that future students will feel less heat than you had to.
 
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Go MD
 
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Friend, as an incoming OSM-I, I know this is a concern many of us share. However, for now, it remains unproductive to debate "MD vs DO". For better or worse, many of the concerns that residency programs have regarding osteopathic schools are legitimate ones, with the most important one being strength of clinical rotations. Compared to the MD schools, the newer DO (not counting the big 5 or state schools) have pretty sub-par rotations. It is only with time that these schools can improve in that regard and started to be viewed as legitimate, as many of the established DO schools are.

The best thing you can do is to crush med school and make a name for yourself as a DO, so that future students will feel less heat than you had to.

Forgot to add that if you actually are deciding between an MD acceptance vs a DO one, you should go MD 150% of the time.
 
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As someone who is trying to decide between going to an MD school and a DO school I am flabbergasted at the apparent blatant discriminatory practices by top residency programs and specialties. I would think in this very progressive age where we are trying to liberate all from discrimination the institution of medicine would not still have these discriminatory practices.

DO's are taught the exact same curriculum as MD's, they are exactly as qualified and when DO's score equivalent or better than their MD's counterpart there is no logical reason to weigh their merit less because of being educated at a DO school. DO's should be judged on their merits not their degree, especially since they come from U.S. institutions.

How do we end these practices? How do we make the medical community and powers that be aware so that change can be brought? Let MD's and DO's band together to end this!
Lol you want the "discrimination" against DO to stop because you think it's unfair, but you're fine with discrimination against non-US institutions? What happened to your idea that people "should be judged on their merits, not their degree"? The bolded sentence makes it pretty obvious that you don't truly care about preventing discrimination as much as you care about preventing a dent in your CV.
 
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As someone who is trying to decide between going to an MD school and a DO school I am flabbergasted at the apparent blatant discriminatory practices by top residency programs and specialties. I would think in this very progressive age where we are trying to liberate all from discrimination the institution of medicine would not still have these discriminatory practices.

DO's are taught the exact same curriculum as MD's, they are exactly as qualified and when DO's score equivalent or better than their MD's counterpart there is no logical reason to weigh their merit less because of being educated at a DO school. DO's should be judged on their merits not their degree, especially since they come from U.S. institutions.

How do we end these practices? How do we make the medical community and powers that be aware so that change can be brought? Let MD's and DO's band together to end this!

I have been practicing Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery in the Southeast corridor of the US for around 7 yrs. I have both a DMD and MD. I have been on staff at several very well respected community hospitals. I have many colleagues/friends who are both MD and DO Dermatologists, Cardiologists, Plastic Surgeons, etc. Taking facial trauma call, I have had interactions with many DO General/Trauma Surgeons, DO Orthopods, etc.
In the real world , at least in this part of the US, no one gives two bits if you are MD or DO. Patients don't care. Fellow physicians don't care. The community doesn't care. The Hospital non MD staff/administration doesn't care. As long as you practice good medicine here and have great communication with your fellow colleagues, its all good. This is the world outside the bubble of med school and academia. This is where s--t really counts.
 
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As someone who is trying to decide between going to an MD school and a DO school I am flabbergasted at the apparent blatant discriminatory practices by top residency programs and specialties. I would think in this very progressive age where we are trying to liberate all from discrimination the institution of medicine would not still have these discriminatory practices.

DO's are taught the exact same curriculum as MD's, they are exactly as qualified and when DO's score equivalent or better than their MD's counterpart there is no logical reason to weigh their merit less because of being educated at a DO school. DO's should be judged on their merits not their degree, especially since they come from U.S. institutions.

How do we end these practices? How do we make the medical community and powers that be aware so that change can be brought? Let MD's and DO's band together to end this!

As an MD I will not be participating in such any such effort. It's not discrimination when you had the ability to influence your choice of where to attend. A 220 v. A 220 at Harvard all else equal may have one match at Harvard or a solid program but the state school may match at the local community hospital so there's prestige bias among MDs too. DO physicians will be treated as equal when they have the same admissions standards as MD schools and as much research money and as much time to develop the reputation of more well-known MD schools.
 
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As an MD I will not be participating in such any such effort. It's not discrimination when you had the ability to influence your choice of where to attend. A 220 at a state MD school v. A 220 at Harvard all else equal may have one match at Harvard or a solid program but the state school may match at the local community hospital so there's prestige bias among MDs too. DO physicians will be treated as equal when they have the same admissions standards as MD schools and as much research money and as much time to develop the reputation of more well-known MD schools.

There, I fixed it for you. All that prestige must have made you type incoherently for a moment or two.
 
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There, I fixed it for you. All that prestige must have made you type incoherently for a moment or two.
Yeah state MD schools aren't highly regarded. UCSF, UCLA, UMich, UVa? Bottom feeders.
 
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The thing I keep coming back to is, baring some unique family or severe geographical limitation, is there ever a good reason for a student that has been accepted to a MD program to choose a DO program instead?

I've asked this question to many people and the end result is always the same. There are no good reasons.

99.9% of MDs respect their DO colleagues and correctly view them as equals in the clinical word of attending. That being said, the hard truth is that DO students are those that may have good credentials but couldn't get into a MD program and this fact may resurface as you are applying for residencies once we combine the match programs.
 
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Dude - you are making a baseless post.

You choose DO over MD if you care about OMM.

The thing I keep coming back to is, baring some unique family or severe geographical limitation, is there ever a good reason for a student that has been accepted to a MD program to choose a DO program instead?

I've asked this question to many people and the end result is always the same. There are no good reasons.

99.9% of MDs respect their DO colleagues and correctly view them as equals in the clinical word of attending. That being said, the hard truth is that DO students are those that may have good credentials but couldn't get into a MD program and this fact may resurface as you are applying for residencies once we combine the match programs.
 
I have been practicing Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery in the Southeast corridor of the US for around 7 yrs. I have both a DMD and MD. I have been on staff at several very well respected community hospitals. I have many colleagues/friends who are both MD and DO Dermatologists, Cardiologists, Plastic Surgeons, etc. Taking facial trauma call, I have had interactions with many DO General/Trauma Surgeons, DO Orthopods, etc.
In the real world , at least in this part of the US, no one gives two bits if you are MD or DO. Patients don't care. Fellow physicians don't care. The community doesn't care. The Hospital non MD staff/administration doesn't care. As long as you practice good medicine here and have great communication with your fellow colleagues, its all good. This is the world outside the bubble of med school and academia. This is where s--t really counts.

This may be mostly true but I would argue that when the lay person sees an ad for a new doctor, they attribute more prestige to the XXXXXX, MD doctor than the XXXXXX, DO. The osteopathic title simply doesn't have the history behind it that the MD title is associated with. Way back when I was volunteering as a pre-med, I overheard patient conversations in waiting rooms explaining to other patients what a DO was and what the difference was. Even if they see them as equals, the fact that "their doctor" is not a MD may give some patients reservation at least at first.
 
Dude - you are making a baseless post.

You choose DO over MD if you care about OMM.

If you care about OMM enough to turn down an MD admission, I question your judgement. Most practicing DOs realize that OMM is pseudoscience. There is a reason a minority of practicing DOs incorporate it into their practice.
 
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Yeah state MD schools aren't highly regarded. UCSF, UCLA, UMich, UVa? Bottom feeders.

I thought UPenn was a podunk state school somewhere in rural PA until embarassingly recently :oops::whistle:
 
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LOL - dude, you realize that it is posts like this that perpetuate the discrimination against DO.

If you care about OMM enough to turn down an MD admission, I question your judgement. Most practicing DOs realize that OMM is pseudoscience. There is a reason a minority of practicing DOs incorporate it into their practice.
 
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As an MD I will not be participating in such any such effort. It's not discrimination when you had the ability to influence your choice of where to attend.

You make it sound so easy. The state from where an applicant comes from and/or personal circumstances may drive someone to go DO.

DO physicians will be treated as equal when they have the same admissions standards as MD schools

Um, except there are DO schools with equivalent, if not better, class averages and standards as some 'low-tier' MDs.
 
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LOL - dude, you realize that it is posts like this that perpetuate the discrimination against DO.

It sounds that way because my opinion reflects reality. If a MD and a DO student have the exact same stats and CV, it is difficult to make a sound argument why the DO student should get the nod for a position.

As SouthernSurgeon pointed out, that's not discrimination if there is a tangible difference there.
 
DO discrimination will not end until there is a full merger of the two medical degrees under the LCME. There is no compelling reason for two separate degrees at this point in time. Additionally, the establishment of questionable new osteopathic schools with limited resources and precept0r-based clinical instruction degrades the degree. Too bad the AOA will not give up their cash cow (i.e., new schools, board exam fees and licensure fees) without a fight.
 
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Um, except there are DO schools with equivalent, if not better, class averages and standards as some 'low-tier' MDs.

heresy. Next you'll be saying some IMG MD students score higher on Step 1 exams than those piddly "state" MD schools.

Just ignore the haters.

Check out the US Department of Justice webpage "Cases Against Doctors"

The name of their medical school, "tier", "rank", their MD or DO degree, their academic performance are meaningless if they lack the Emotional IQ to be decent human beings. There are plenty of "high tier" MD graduates who are truly scum.

It's the person that makes the physician, not the school
 
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You make it sound so easy. The state from where an applicant comes from and/or personal circumstances may drive someone to go DO.



Um, except there are DO schools with equivalent, if not better, class averages and standards as some 'low-tier' MDs.

The acceptance standards are different than the quality of training the school will provide students with
 
Yeah state MD schools aren't highly regarded. UCSF, UCLA, UMich, UVa? Bottom feeders.
Lol, not arguing. Just pointing (trolling?) out that the previous poster's sentence made no sense without the correction.

Although I will say... a true state school is one, imo, that actually makes it easier for the highly qualified in-state residents to attend. I don't know about the others, but UVA has >$50,000 tuition for both in-state and out-of-state students. Eastern Virginia School of Medicine would be the true "state MD school" for the state of Virginia. UVA might as well be a private ivy league.
 
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In before lock.

Slight modification made for accuracy.

In the real world , at least in this part of the US, no one gives two bits if you are MD or DO. Patients don't care. Fellow physicians don't care. The community doesn't care. The Hospital non MD staff/administration doesn't care. As long as you practice good medicine here and have great communication with your fellow colleagues, its all good. This is the world outside the bubble of SDN, med school and academia. This is where s--t really counts.


This, plus I have had Stanford/Harvard class MD-caliber students come to us over MD schools because of chronic conditions that were misdiagnosed or inadequately treated by MDs, and they were successfully treated by DOs. Their words, not mine, just illustrating some people thought processes. I'd say 5% of my students come to us because of an honest interest in OMM.
You make it sound so easy. The state from where an applicant comes from and/or personal circumstances may drive someone to go DO.
Um, except there are DO schools with equivalent, if not better, class averages and standards as some 'low-tier' MDs.


Now, here's the money post in this thread. DOs have a negative selection bias by PDs NOT because of the cult of Still (which is practically extinct) but because a good number of DO schools have lousy, preceptor-based rotations. Now, as a number of MDs have posted in different threads, there are MD schools that also have lousy rotations, but their grads are not pre-judged.

As an aside, krc, I don't think that the AOA views DO schools as cash cows (although their parent universities do), but because those people really have the mindset of "more DOs good!". I mean, some of their senior people are actually astonished that a DO student would want to take USMLE!

DO discrimination will not end until there is a full merger of the two medical degrees under the LCME. There is no compelling reason for two separate degrees at this point in time. Additionally, the establishment of questionable new osteopathic schools with limited resources and precept0r-based clinical instruction degrades the degree. Too bad the AOA will not give up their cash cow (i.e., new schools, board exam fees and licensure fees) without a fight.
 
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They need better rotations and have more teaching center based rotations. We had 7 months of outpatient family medicine (by one name or another) REQUIRED. 1/7 of those months were academic teaching settings with residents. There is only so much you learn from people refilling their DM and HTN meds. That's not all FP does obviously but when it's a small clinic as a student that is what you are seeing. Also most preceptors don't get paid and may or may not care to teach.

That would make a world of difference but that would increase expenses and not increase tuition so it's automatically nixed. I'm sure I'm not the first one who has had this idea.
 
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If you care about OMM enough to turn down an MD admission, I question your judgement. Most practicing DOs realize that OMM is pseudoscience. There is a reason a minority of practicing DOs incorporate it into their practice.
Don't agree that it's totally a pseudoscience. There's a fair amount of overlap between omm and pt. We spent about a month on upper/lower extremity ortho tests so far in first year. That has value for anyone going into ortho or primary care
 
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I recall seeing an article cited on UWorld that stuck out.

Hecker, K., & Violato, C. (2008). How Much Do Differences in Medical Schools Influence Student Performance? A Longitudinal Study Employing Hierarchical Linear Modeling. Teaching and Learning in Medicine, 20(2), 104-113.

CONCLUSIONS:
Individual student differences account for most of the variation in USMLE performance with small contributions from between-school variation and even smaller contribution from curriculum and educational policies.

All of the nonsense comments about "mid-tier", "lower tier", MD vs DO, LCME vs IMG, and now even "state" medical schools being less than.....

it's all just bullying in my book.
 
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Closing
 
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