How do you detect liars?

[pharm B]

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I got into a heated discussion with a classmate about what makes someone competitive for a residency.

It boiled down to this:

High GPA and absolute zero participation will still land an interview before a lower GPA student with a thick CV. They mentioned that the person with the high GPA can basically just lie through their teeth about a few volunteer events, and make it sound like they were very actively involved in a number of committees.

How do residency directors see through this? Does this happen a lot? I know as the number of applicants goes up, and the number of positions doesn't follow closely, it's going to get cut-throat. 🙁

(I'm somebody with a GPA lower than a 3.5 and a thick CV, so I won't be doing this )

Or does organizational participation matter that much to these programs to begin with? I thought it did, but in retrospect, if it's so easy to lie about it, I wonder if it's not as important.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Good question. And I personally know of people with higher GPAs who have proclaimed their willingness to lie and cheat to get what they want, no matter the cost... As an interviewer, I hope I can see through that, and ask the right questions to determine their true level of involvement and commitment. But I'm not 100% confident.

 

[joetrisman]

I'm telling my interviewers that I cured cancer and gave away the cure daily at a free health clinic. Competition is steep these days

 

[pharm B]

Well at least now I know how high the bar is set. 😉

 

[xiphoid2010]

Well at least now I know how high the bar is set. 😉

It's not as hard as you think. Ask a few details that a liar probably won't know. Eg. My CV said I'm into skiing as sport. The interviewer asked me where and slope, a liar would probably be caught.

My advice to you is that unless your GPA is atrocious (below the cut off) , you can still make up for the matrix score with something else. Don't have a 3.8 to 4.0 to score a 5 in that category? you can off set that with a 5 by have one or more research articles published in a known peer reviewed journal, etc.

I would be the first to admit that it's an artificial contruct, has many imperfections, but it would be even worse without it in place. A residents should be a good learner under stress, be able to handle burdens of an employee, and more importantly not only survive but thrive in an challenging environment, emerging stronger and better through the process because of it to represent what this profession could be if given the opportunity.

 

[KARM12]

Every program is different. The student that is more likely to get an interview has a higher GPA, leadership activities, and work experience.

 

[EBT12]

I found out after an interview that a person I interviewed with for a residency program called an organization I listed on my CV to discuss my involvement. That's one way to confirm information... at least when you get down to a few candidates. Granted, I think that having lots of leadership and work experience significantly helped!

 

[IndustryPharmD]

I ask non-standard questions. Anyone who gives me a canned answer instead of really answering the question is automatically placed into the "do not call back" pile.

 

[diagonal]

Everyone answering here is going to pretend like they're the second incarnation of Columbo, but the reality is as follows:

A) They're not.
B) Numbers are truly all that matters.
C) OP is obviously lying on application, and is concerned.

 

[pharm B]

C) OP is obviously lying on application, and is concerned.

You don't post here often, do you?

 

[diagonal]

You don't post here often, do you?

No

 

[xiphoid2010]

You don't post here often, do you?

well, to be fair, he has a point. We are pharmacists, not detectives. We might be able to catch most of the liars with foreknowledge of the application and a well coordinated questions during interview, but the truth is that some of the really good BS'er/liars will still slip through.

No system is perfect, but it should not stop people from trying to improve it. When its so good that it takes liars almost as much time to prepare for interviews as actually doing it to give an honest to god answer, then it will be good enough. In the meanwhile, you should rest comfortably in the knowledge that while liars might BS their way through few of the interviews, it's still won't match the 60+% chance of match a residency for an honest student.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

well, to be fair, he has a point. We are pharmacists, not detectives.

You missed the point of PharmB's remark. The drive-by post to insult B and insinuate that he's lying on a residency application (when he's not even applying currently) was evidence that this "diagonal" person doesn't come here often and doesn't know our forum or it's members. Of course he's right that we aren't detectives, duh. But B's posing of the question doesn't make B a liar... someone is trolling, me thinks.

 

[diagonal]

You missed the point of PharmB's remark. The drive-by post to insult B and insinuate that he's lying on a residency application (when he's not even applying currently) was evidence that this "diagonal" person doesn't come here often and doesn't know our forum or it's members. Of course he's right that we aren't detectives, duh. But B's posing of the question doesn't make B a liar... someone is trolling, me thinks.

My point C was for humor. A and B are rock solid. Jesus Christ, lighten up.

 

[pharm B]

Thanks everyone for the legitimate discussion. I'll continue truckin' on, and we'll see how I feel this time next year. 😉

 

[pharm B]

My point C was for humor. A and B are rock solid. Jesus Christ, lighten up.

A and B make sense, but I know of a small number of programs personally that do like the "whole candidate" concept, and don't automatically rank a higher GPA candidate higher in the stack.

But in the end, if you don't match, and "just" get a job as a pharmacist, it's not really a loss, right?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

My point C was for humor. A and B are rock solid. Jesus Christ, lighten up.

🙄

 

[All4MyDaughter]

A and B make sense, but I know of a small number of programs personally that do like the "whole candidate" concept, and don't automatically rank a higher GPA candidate higher in the stack.

But in the end, if you don't match, and "just" get a job as a pharmacist, it's not really a loss, right?

I guess it depends. If you don't mind doing any pharmacy job, then yes. But I know at least one person who didn't match, had to get a job in retail and is now floating over a wide geographic area and struggling to get full time hours. 🙁

 

[diagonal]

A and B make sense, but I know of a small number of programs personally that do like the "whole candidate" concept, and don't automatically rank a higher GPA candidate higher in the stack.

But in the end, if you don't match, and "just" get a job as a pharmacist, it's not really a loss, right?

I'm not too familiar with the pharm world, so yeah. But with respect to the notion of "whole candidate," let's just say I don't believe it. That usually applies to people that met the numerical cut-offs. Then they want to get emotional and creative and big-hearted. Of course this doesn't apply to the under-represented. But there's a check-box for that (how convenient), so they can filter them back in.

Perhaps I'm biased. But I had an experience that proved the point to me. I won't go into details, because this is the interent after all, but suffice it to say, I'm convinced of B.

 

[pharm B]

I guess it depends. If you don't mind doing any pharmacy job, then yes. But I know at least one person who didn't match, had to get a job in retail and is now floating over a wide geographic area and struggling to get full time hours. 🙁

True, but gotta hold out hope. Otherwise I'd be posting in the Sky is Falling megathread.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

True, but gotta hold out hope. Otherwise I'd be posting in the Sky is Falling megathread.

You're right. Keep hope alive. Because anecdotes are just that. None of us knows what the pharmacy world will be like when you're graduating, and anyone who says they do is full of BS.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I'm not too familiar with the pharm world, so yeah. But with respect to the notion of "whole candidate," let's just say I don't believe it. That usually applies to people that met the numerical cut-offs. Then they want to get emotional and creative and big-hearted. Of course this doesn't apply to the under-represented. But there's a check-box for that (how convenient), so they can filter them back in.

Perhaps I'm biased. But I had an experience that proved the point to me. I won't go into details, because this is the interent after all, but suffice it to say, I'm convinced of B.

The well rounded candidate approach is pretty important in the pharm world.

 

[pharm B]

One of the questions about a candidate I've heard in a few different hospital systems is, "could you stand to have to sit next to or work with this person for hours on end, in close quarters?" That's where at least one or two competitive people I know might lose the game.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

One of the questions about a candidate I've heard in a few different hospital systems is, "could you stand to have to sit next to or work with this person for hours on end, in close quarters?" That's where at least one or two competitive people I know might lose the game.

 

[xiphoid2010]

You missed the point of PharmB's remark. The drive-by post to insult B and insinuate that he's lying on a residency application (when he's not even applying currently) was evidence that this "diagonal" person doesn't come here often and doesn't know our forum or it's members. Of course he's right that we aren't detectives, duh. But B's posing of the question doesn't make B a liar... someone is trolling, me thinks.

Maybe he's trolling. But I rather just sit back and be drinking a few beers, and pretend that everyone is speaking in good faith. It's an internet forum, we got all kinds here. Troll and knowledge seekers alike, one can either present something in good faith or crack jokes. Either way,time is spent in a leisurely manner. Meh.

 

[pharm B]

Maybe he's trolling. But I rather just sit back and be drinking a few beers, and pretend that everyone is speaking in good faith. It's an internet forum, we got all kinds here. Troll and knowledge seekers alike, one can either present something in good faith or crack jokes. Meh.

And thus we abide. 😎

 

[diagonal]

Maybe he's trolling. But I rather just sit back and be drinking a few beers, and pretend that everyone is speaking in good faith. It's an internet forum, we got all kinds here. Troll and knowledge seekers alike, one can either present something in good faith or crack jokes. Either way,time is spent in a leisurely manner. Meh.

I like you.

 

[rxlea]

B, if your app ever came across my DOPs desk, I'd def tell her to give you a second look 😉 then I would proceed to tell her of your awesomeness 😀

 

[spacecowgirl]

One of the questions about a candidate I've heard in a few different hospital systems is, "could you stand to have to sit next to or work with this person for hours on end, in close quarters?" That's where at least one or two competitive people I know might lose the game.

Truth.

What is the opposite of je ne sais quoi? Despite being a good candidate on paper, if you can't stomach spending tons of time with them, you have to move on.

 

[joetrisman]

It's not as hard as you think. Ask a few details that a liar probably won't know. Eg. My CV said I'm into skiing as sport. The interviewer asked me where and slope, a liar would probably be caught.

My advice to you is that unless your GPA is atrocious (below the cut off) , you can still make up for the matrix score with something else. Don't have a 3.8 to 4.0 to score a 5 in that category? you can off set that with a 5 by have one or more research articles published in a known peer reviewed journal, etc.

I would be the first to admit that it's an artificial contruct, has many imperfections, but it would be even worse without it in place. A residents should be a good learner under stress, be able to handle burdens of an employee, and more importantly not only survive but thrive in an challenging environment, emerging stronger and better through the process because of it to represent what this profession could be if given the opportunity.

Anyone else list hobbies on their CV? I feel its slightly unprofessional personally, but I definitely have a few eye catchers depending on the audience and think it might turn off those without similar interest and vice versa which could be a good thing.

 

[pharmacisttobe]

I got into a heated discussion with a classmate about what makes someone competitive for a residency.

It boiled down to this:

High GPA and absolute zero participation will still land an interview before a lower GPA student with a thick CV. They mentioned that the person with the high GPA can basically just lie through their teeth about a few volunteer events, and make it sound like they were very actively involved in a number of committees.

How do residency directors see through this? Does this happen a lot? I know as the number of applicants goes up, and the number of positions doesn't follow closely, it's going to get cut-throat. 🙁

(I'm somebody with a GPA lower than a 3.5 and a thick CV, so I won't be doing this )

Or does organizational participation matter that much to these programs to begin with? I thought it did, but in retrospect, if it's so easy to lie about it, I wonder if it's not as important.

From what I see while on rotations it varies from program to program tremendously.
If you have a high GPA , then you can power through the residency without caring much about anything else( I was told they did a lot of crying alone/wanting to quit everyday). That's in case you are too OCD to work with anyone or if you are antisocial and hated volunteering during school. Otherwise, many high GPA candidates I met in Midyear and on rotation were actually pleasant.
If your GPA isn't great but you have a " thick CV" and impress the residency director, then your residency experience will be spent doing a lot of catch up work to be on the same level as your co-residents. And you'll pull all your social skills to ask other pharmacists, residents, and professors to help you.
Both types of applicants will work their ass off during a residency regardless of how they get in the program. Just on different weaknesses. My 2 cents😉