How do you have a positive outlook on becoming a physician when the medical space constantly describes it as depressing and draining?

[razortrunks]

From the time I started scribing to eventually being accepted to Medical school, I have been constantly told that medicine will be mentally challenging and draining with a possible chance that I will regret it. How can I continue on this path with so much negativity tied to it? Why are so many people becoming physicians when the end game is that you will be miserable? I don't get it. Why am I doing this? Why are "WE" doing this? Are all physicians truly miserable? Is working in medicine accepting that it is miserable and continuing onward? If so, then why do it in the first place lol? Why are we all becoming martyrs when we only have one life?

How can we as physicians work together to change this? I want to be in a space where we are flourishing and enjoying ourselves, all while helping others. I don't want to be miserable. Medicine is a passion of mine and I am devastated to know that it will be a horrible experience. What have I gotten into? How do yall (present physicians, pre-meds, current medical students, etc.) process this and justify it? Have we all come to suffer together?

Let me know your thoughts.

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[voxveritatisetlucis]

I think that most just have to realize and accept that the “glory days” of being a physician are over from a monetary perspective and being okay with that. Between Medicare reimbursement declining, mid levels everywhere, inflation, foreign physician licensure, physicians will not be nearly as comfortable as they were in the past. It will probably look more like the UK. So if you went into medicine for the right reasons (ie not money) you’ll be fine and enjoy your career

 

[PikminOC]

From the time I started scribing to eventually being accepted to Medical school, I have been constantly told that medicine will be mentally challenging and draining with a possible chance that I will regret it. How can I continue on this path with so much negativity tied to it? Why are so many people becoming physicians when the end game is that you will be miserable? I don't get it. Why am I doing this? Why are "WE" doing this? Are all physicians truly miserable? Is working in medicine accepting that it is miserable and continuing onward? If so, then why do it in the first place lol? Why are we all becoming martyrs when we only have one life?

How can we as physicians work together to change this? I want to be in a space where we are flourishing and enjoying ourselves, all while helping others. I don't want to be miserable. Medicine is a passion of mine and I am devastated to know that it will be a horrible experience. What have I gotten into? How do yall (present physicians, pre-meds, current medical students, etc.) process this and justify it? Have we all come to suffer together?

Let me know your thoughts.

Herding physicians is impossible. They are competitive with each other all the way thru education and even beyond.

 

[PikminOC]

I think that most just have to realize and accept that the “glory days” of being a physician are over looking at it from a momentary perspective and being okay with that. Between Medicare reimbursement declining, mid levels everywhere, inflation, foreign physician licensure, physicians will not be nearly as comfortable as they were in the past. It will probably look more like the UK. So if you went into medicine for the right reasons (ie not money) you’ll be fine and enjoy your career

I don't think it's just this. It's also the demands on your time including emr and inbox. Low respect and entitled patients

 

[Tenk]

Chicks, money, power, and chicks.

 

[APA 32]

I just finished anesthesia residency and while there are some parts of training that sucked I really had fun during most it. As far as the money aspect I didn't have much growing up and as a senior resident I made more than my parents made in their max earning years.

 

[LunaOri]

It’s still a great career. Just be sure it is what you want to do, because if you can’t find fulfillment in it (this applies to whatever career you choose) you will be unhappy.

 

[Kardio]

Are all physicians truly miserable? Is working in medicine accepting that it is miserable and continuing onward?

No. There’s just a vocal group online with an extreme grass-is-greener worldview that stops them from enjoying their life.

 

[pierty]

Thank you for your post. It reflects something I've felt for a long time.

In isolation, it looks like there's been a cultural shift within the medical community toward a heavy pessimism. But it's actually more reflective of pockets of the community (especially online on this forum, and it's bled into some more vocal parties reflecting their pessimism outward in real life), and it's happened to many other professions too. Go to any forum for law, business, etc. - they are all equally or more disillusioned and toxic. The more time you spend on this forum or around people who commiserate, the more passively you will find yourself exhausted and asking these questions over and over.

While in reality some aspects of training and healthcare have gotten more annoying or difficult over time, overall it's still an incredible and meaningful path and I've found myself reflecting at many points how grateful I am to be on it. There are highs and lows as in any part of life, and how well you are able to stabilize yourself through them will determine how happy you are in many different aspects.

Regarding how we can work together to change this - I think the best option for your mental health is to find a group of classmates who share your passion and generally treat things with levity. I noticed my mood change drastically when I started spending more time with those who talked a lot more like my earlier friends (mostly jokes, hobbies, rarely one-on-one conversations about plans and dreams) than the ones who constantly complained and obsessed over every discomfort or issue they saw in my institution, administration, etc. Just know there are people like that out there, and you'll find them if you're looking for them.

 

[PikminOC]

The people online will tell the truth. They can't say these things at work or to anyone else. And the cost of schooling has skyrocketed.

The npdb etc are all things that weren't as aggressive even just a few years ago

 

[operaman]

Attending a couple years out of fellowship here. I absolutely love the job! It has some suckage to it like any other job does, but on balance I make a ridiculously high salary, and get to do something rewarding for it. Most of the time the lifestyle is awesome and I’m out the door by 4pm with all notes done. Most all weekends free too.

But the key is that every day I go in and talk to people who are suffering and I get to help relieve some of that suffering. Sometimes I even get to legit save lives, though thankfully that’s not too often (life and death situations are much more fun on TV when it’s George Clooney doing it than in real life). The work itself is really a lot of fun.

You have to realize that nobody can complain like an attending physician. Sure, med students can grumble and residents can lament their state, but nothing can match the complaining from a seasoned attending. Their ability to weave woe-is-me grievance and self-aggrandizement into a beautiful tapestry of bulls—t is legendary. I’m getting better at this, but even I can’t match my more senior colleagues. Take the lamentations you hear with a big grain of salt - much of it is coming from senior docs making $700k+ working 40-50h a week.

In the end, much depends on your personal expectations. Medicine has changed a lot over the last 30 years and will probably change exponentially more over the next 30. If you’re expecting idyllic bliss and no stress, well you’re going to be disappointed. If you’re looking forward to a busy, dynamic job with high levels of uncertainty and constant change, then you may find yourself thriving.

So yes, it’s a tough job. Long period of training, steep learning curve, and a ton of responsibilities once you’re done. Lots of downward economic pressure on our compensation as well, but unequaled job security. But if you truly like the work and find it rewarding, it can be a great way to make a living and make a life.

And believe me there is no shortage of suffering people who need care. No matter what changes come, that part is immutable.

 

[PikminOC]

I just finished anesthesia residency and while there are some parts of training that sucked I really had fun during most it. As far as the money aspect I didn't have much growing up and as a senior resident I made more than my parents made in their max earning years.

Let us know how you feel as a full attending supervising midlevels. It's not just about the money. It's also about the liability

 

[PikminOC]

Attending a couple years out of fellowship here. I absolutely love the job! It has some suckage to it like any other job does, but on balance I make a ridiculously high salary, and get to do something rewarding for it. Most of the time the lifestyle is awesome and I’m out the door by 4pm with all notes done. Most all weekends free too.

But the key is that every day I go in and talk to people who are suffering and I get to help relieve some of that suffering. Sometimes I even get to legit save lives, though thankfully that’s not too often (life and death situations are much more fun on TV when it’s George Clooney doing it than in real life). The work itself is really a lot of fun.

You have to realize that nobody can complain like an attending physician. Sure, med students can grumble and residents can lament their state, but nothing can match the complaining from a seasoned attending. Their ability to weave woe-is-me grievance and self-aggrandizement into a beautiful tapestry of bulls—t is legendary. I’m getting better at this, but even I can’t match my more senior colleagues. Take the lamentations you hear with a big grain of salt - much of it is coming from senior docs making $700k+ working 40-50h a week.

In the end, much depends on your personal expectations. Medicine has changed a lot over the last 30 years and will probably change exponentially more over the next 30. If you’re expecting idyllic bliss and no stress, well you’re going to be disappointed. If you’re looking forward to a busy, dynamic job with high levels of uncertainty and constant change, then you may find yourself thriving.

So yes, it’s a tough job. Long period of training, steep learning curve, and a ton of responsibilities once you’re done. Lots of downward economic pressure on our compensation as well, but unequaled job security. But if you truly like the work and find it rewarding, it can be a great way to make a living and make a life.

And believe me there is no shortage of suffering people who need care. No matter what changes come, that part is immutable.

What is your field? And what doctors are you referring to who make 700g 40 hours a week ? What field are they in? And what are they complaining about? Because most docs that age arent on social media complaining.

 

[operaman]

What is your field? And what doctors are you referring to who make 700g 40 hours a week ? What field are they in? And what are they complaining about? Because most docs that age arent on social media complaining.

I’m in ENT. And lots of docs are making serious bank, especially procedural specialists and especially the more senior folks. I know a number of senior ENT partners in private practice making 7 figures. Remember that the medians you see posted everywhere are just that - half of docs make more, and some make a LOT more.

I find the complaining is not correlated with income or field. They complain about all the usual stuff - too much work, time, documentation, admin overreach, not like the good old days, etc. Gone are the days where you could do a full endoscopic sinus surgery and command a surgeons fee of $25k like you could in the 90s. But the procedure was woefully overvalued then as it was so new and it took longer and complication rates were nuts. Now it pays more like $3k which is probably a bit low, but they’re faster and complications are less frequent.

So yeah certain aspects aren’t as good as the old days, but you can still make a great living doing a cool job with virtual unlimited job security. I’d probably be a bit sour too if I was making $10k in a day doing three procedures that previously would have paid $90k. But for me $10k a day is pretty sweet, and now less than 1% of those patients have csf leaks instead of 25% back in the good old days.

 

[OraclePL]

I think that most just have to realize and accept that the “glory days” of being a physician are over from a monetary perspective and being okay with that. Between Medicare reimbursement declining, mid levels everywhere, inflation, foreign physician licensure, physicians will not be nearly as comfortable as they were in the past. It will probably look more like the UK. So if you went into medicine for the right reasons (ie not money) you’ll be fine and enjoy your career

Generally disagree with this post. Depending on the specialty you go into, there is still plenty of income potential. I know hospitalists who make more than specialists. There is a lot of intra-specialty pay variation that people always seem to forget about. It is certainly nothing like UK physicians. To suggest that people who are not money-focused will not burnout is misleading.

I don’t think the primary cause of burnout, on the aggregate, has to do with finances. At least not directly. The primary cause of burnout that I have seen has been the absolute deluge of BS that we have to deal with when it comes to documentation, regulations, and just feeling a loss of control when it comes to the practice of medicine. difficult patients, difficult daily interactions, that just grind you down and wear on you in any specialty.

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

As with anything, perspective is relative.
A number of years ago, a resident gave a lecture on physician burnout. He presented a table with burnout rates of various groups. The burnout rate for FMGs was much much lower as compared to US trained doctors. Thought that was interesting. At some level be grateful for what you have and remember that you make a lot more than the avg person.
But as noted above…..entitled patients and the EMR inbox are huge satisfaction killers.

 

[Angler]

I think that the disgruntled have louder voices than the satisfied. Plenty of happy docs; they just don’t say so. Though medicine has its challenges, it’s still a fun profession for many. Not all, but many. There’ve been threads on this exact topic here.

 

[PikminOC]

I’m in ENT. And lots of docs are making serious bank, especially procedural specialists and especially the more senior folks. I know a number of senior ENT partners in private practice making 7 figures. Remember that the medians you see posted everywhere are just that - half of docs make more, and some make a LOT more.

I find the complaining is not correlated with income or field. They complain about all the usual stuff - too much work, time, documentation, admin overreach, not like the good old days, etc. Gone are the days where you could do a full endoscopic sinus surgery and command a surgeons fee of $25k like you could in the 90s. But the procedure was woefully overvalued then as it was so new and it took longer and complication rates were nuts. Now it pays more like $3k which is probably a bit low, but they’re faster and complications are less frequent.

So yeah certain aspects aren’t as good as the old days, but you can still make a great living doing a cool job with virtual unlimited job security. I’d probably be a bit sour too if I was making $10k in a day doing three procedures that previously would have paid $90k. But for me $10k a day is pretty sweet, and now less than 1% of those patients have csf leaks instead of 25% back in the good old days.

Not that easy to get into procedure fields like that. That's not the average physician

 

[Mr.Smile12]

From the time I started scribing to eventually being accepted to Medical school, I have been constantly told that medicine will be mentally challenging and draining with a possible chance that I will regret it. How can I continue on this path with so much negativity tied to it?

The grass isn't greener on the other side. Just scroll through the forums on the other professions every once in a while... pharm, dent, and pod for starters.

 

[RunsOnCaffeine]

I think finding a field of medicine you like is important. I just hit my 4th year of ortho residency and have gone through plenty of waves of burnout over the years, but one thing that gets me through is that I really love the pathology and surgeries. If I had ended up in almost any other field, I think I would hate my life. Probs could have been happy in MSK rads, IR, or anesthesia too, but that's about it.

 

[RangerBob]

As you get a bit older you care less and less about what others are complaining about.

Or you get sucked into their negativity and it spirals indefinitely (just look at Fox News--I'm not trying to be political, but it's all over there. NYT has it too with all climate change articles but at least there's some semblance of hope in their articles...)

Chose which person you want to be, and cast out the others like the plague (miserable vs content people--not conservatives/liberals since, believe it or not we need all of them)

I'm serious. You will find miserable people everywhere in every field. Hospitals are so big it's easy to find miserable people, as well as very content/happy people. A small clinic? Could be great if you can all keep up the positive spirit, or a huge drain if all 5 people you're surrounded by all day are miserable/spirit-sapping vampires. If you're in the latter group, you can either live with it or just pick up your feet.

 

[operaman]

Not that easy to get into procedure fields like that. That's not the average physician

No but when you take all the procedural fields together it’s a sizable chunk. That’s definitely where the big money tends to be, though some non procedural docs have an entrepreneurial streak and make bank that way.

My rural family Med preceptors in Med school made $350 and $400k a number of years ago (data pulled from hospital from 990s). No call, no weekends, bankers hours. Not a bad deal and they were both super happy. I had actually taught each of their kids how to sing many years earlier and they were super happy back then too (when they did take call!). So even in much maligned primary care there are many happy docs out there thriving. Maybe they’re too busy loving and living life to complain on social media.

I think so much of this comes down to expectations. Maybe premeds and students don’t give enough thought to what they want and expect in the end. It’s easy to chase money and prestige, but that may not be the day to day you want. Plenty of mediocre academics with Harvard and Hopkins pedigree who are miserable AF, and plenty of state U private practice clinicians going home at 4 every night happy. So far my practice is meeting/exceeding most of my expectations, but if I expected something else maybe I’d be more unhappy.

 

[evanmcleod98]

From the time I started scribing to eventually being accepted to Medical school, I have been constantly told that medicine will be mentally challenging and draining with a possible chance that I will regret it. How can I continue on this path with so much negativity tied to it? Why are so many people becoming physicians when the end game is that you will be miserable? I don't get it. Why am I doing this? Why are "WE" doing this? Are all physicians truly miserable? Is working in medicine accepting that it is miserable and continuing onward? If so, then why do it in the first place lol? Why are we all becoming martyrs when we only have one life?

How can we as physicians work together to change this? I want to be in a space where we are flourishing and enjoying ourselves, all while helping others. I don't want to be miserable. Medicine is a passion of mine and I am devastated to know that it will be a horrible experience. What have I gotten into? How do yall (present physicians, pre-meds, current medical students, etc.) process this and justify it? Have we all come to suffer together?

Let me know your thoughts.

I understand your concerns about the challenges and negative aspects of pursuing a career in medicine. However, it's important to know that not all doctors are unhappy. Many find fulfillment in helping others and making a positive impact. Building a supportive network of colleagues and prioritizing self-care and work-life balance can contribute to a more enjoyable experience. Remember, you have the ability to shape your own path in medicine and find a balance that aligns with your passion. Ultimately, it's about finding joy in the journey and making a meaningful difference in people's lives.

 

[PikminOC]

No but when you take all the procedural fields together it’s a sizable chunk. That’s definitely where the big money tends to be, though some non procedural docs have an entrepreneurial streak and make bank that way.

My rural family Med preceptors in Med school made $350 and $400k a number of years ago (data pulled from hospital from 990s). No call, no weekends, bankers hours. Not a bad deal and they were both super happy. I had actually taught each of their kids how to sing many years earlier and they were super happy back then too (when they did take call!). So even in much maligned primary care there are many happy docs out there thriving. Maybe they’re too busy loving and living life to complain on social media.

I think so much of this comes down to expectations. Maybe premeds and students don’t give enough thought to what they want and expect in the end. It’s easy to chase money and prestige, but that may not be the day to day you want. Plenty of mediocre academics with Harvard and Hopkins pedigree who are miserable AF, and plenty of state U private practice clinicians going home at 4 every night happy. So far my practice is meeting/exceeding most of my expectations, but if I expected something else maybe I’d be more unhappy.

Not sure how med students would know what life will be like as an attending. I certainly didn't.

And not all procedures make bank. Ent is a highly competitive specialty like many other specialists.
Gen surg is not pulling in the money and hours you are.

Out of all the physicians, what percentage are all the subspecialty procedural ones? 30 percent? 20?
I don't know that's why I'm asking.

 

[mistafab]

It’s not all terrible OP.

I was told med school sucked. I was very satisfied/content in med school. I was also told residency sucked. Once again, I’ve enjoyed it a lot and am glad I chose it. I’m in the right field, and find it very satisfying. I’m also at one of the hardest working residencies in my field in the country. It’s really not that bad lol, just keep it in perspective.

I think a big factor is MDs in general are whiny/gloomy, and have never worked a real job. The majority had the way paved for them by parents who were also doctors. They never struggled before, and it shows. As someone who did other work before med school, without MD parents… I promise that this job is way better than most jobs.

Boy was I feeling it on those 24s/ 30 hr shifts though lol. In general, if you are a whiny and gloomy person, you will be whiny and gloomy in med school/residency just like those whiny and gloomy folks in all fields. We all know them. They are drains. It’s more about you than the field itself. If you surround yourself with whiny and gloomy people, expect to feel whiny and gloomy yourself.

 

[PikminOC]

It’s not all terrible OP.

I was told med school sucked. I was very satisfied/content in med school. I was also told residency sucked. Once again, I’ve enjoyed it a lot and am glad I chose it. I’m in the right field, and find it very satisfying. I’m also at one of the hardest working residencies in my field in the country. It’s really not that bad lol, just keep it in perspective.

I think a big factor is MDs in general are whiny/gloomy, and have never worked a real job. The majority had the way paved for them by parents who were also doctors. They never struggled before, and it shows. As someone who did other work before med school, without MD parents… I promise that this job is way better than most jobs.

Boy was I feeling it on those 24s/ 30 hr shifts though lol. In general, if you are a whiny and gloomy person, you will be whiny and gloomy in med school/residency just like those whiny and gloomy folks in all fields. We all know them. They are drains. It’s more about you than the field itself. If you surround yourself with whiny and gloomy people, expect to feel whiny and gloomy yourself.

I didn't have MD parents. Many MD students go from undergrad to Med school, the traditional way. I didn't have a postbacc. I thought med school was very difficult, and all the licensing exams. All the loans for med school are my own, and I'm still paying them back

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Generally disagree with this post. Depending on the specialty you go into, there is still plenty of income potential. I know hospitalists who make more than specialists. There is a lot of intra-specialty pay variation that people always seem to forget about. It is certainly nothing like UK physicians. To suggest that people who are not money-focused will not burnout is misleading.

I don’t think the primary cause of burnout, on the aggregate, has to do with finances. At least not directly. The primary cause of burnout that I have seen has been the absolute deluge of BS that we have to deal with when it comes to documentation, regulations, and just feeling a loss of control when it comes to the practice of medicine. difficult patients, difficult daily interactions, that just grind you down and wear on you in any specialty.

Yes, right now there is still income potential. But by the time that current medical students are practicing, most states will have laws that allow FMGs to practice without residency in the US. Residency slots were always a bottleneck to control supply and therefore boost wages. If this bottleneck ceases to exist, most attending physicians will make like 100k. Surgeons maybe 200k

 

[PikminOC]

I just finished anesthesia residency and while there are some parts of training that sucked I really had fun during most it. As far as the money aspect I didn't have much growing up and as a senior resident I made more than my parents made in their max earning years.

Many gas guys I know retire early due to back and neck pain from the obese patients

 

[PikminOC]

Generally disagree with this post. Depending on the specialty you go into, there is still plenty of income potential. I know hospitalists who make more than specialists. There is a lot of intra-specialty pay variation that people always seem to forget about. It is certainly nothing like UK physicians. To suggest that people who are not money-focused will not burnout is misleading.

I don’t think the primary cause of burnout, on the aggregate, has to do with finances. At least not directly. The primary cause of burnout that I have seen has been the absolute deluge of BS that we have to deal with when it comes to documentation, regulations, and just feeling a loss of control when it comes to the practice of medicine. difficult patients, difficult daily interactions, that just grind you down and wear on you in any specialty.

The hospitalists I know complain about midelevels being hired for hospital groups.

The midlevel encroachment is another strain for physicians

 

[Wordead]

Not that easy to get into procedure fields like that. That's not the average physician

I think his point is that no matter how good you have it people like to whine. I love to complain. It gives me life. I work 40 hrs a week or so and make a ton of money. I dont think anyone could really look at my life and say I have it hard. I still complain about the EMR, taking call, stupid referring midlevels and doctors, stupid ED consults, hospital admin, whenever I have to take my porsche in for repairs, my wife doing minor things that annoy me slightly, my slightly delayed first class international flights. People like to complain, take it with a grain of salt.

 

[APA 32]

Many gas guys I know retire early due to back and neck pain from the obese patients

This is my second career not planning on staying longer than 20 years lol. Yeah lots of obese people where I live lol

 

[Med Ed]

"Change is never painful. Only the resistance to change is painful."

Drink enough pain and the pain becomes you. Then you transcend it.

Love being a doctor, five stars, would do again.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

No but when you take all the procedural fields together it’s a sizable chunk. That’s definitely where the big money tends to be, though some non procedural docs have an entrepreneurial streak and make bank that way.

My rural family Med preceptors in Med school made $350 and $400k a number of years ago (data pulled from hospital from 990s). No call, no weekends, bankers hours. Not a bad deal and they were both super happy. I had actually taught each of their kids how to sing many years earlier and they were super happy back then too (when they did take call!). So even in much maligned primary care there are many happy docs out there thriving. Maybe they’re too busy loving and living life to complain on social media.

I think so much of this comes down to expectations. Maybe premeds and students don’t give enough thought to what they want and expect in the end. It’s easy to chase money and prestige, but that may not be the day to day you want. Plenty of mediocre academics with Harvard and Hopkins pedigree who are miserable AF, and plenty of state U private practice clinicians going home at 4 every night happy. So far my practice is meeting/exceeding most of my expectations, but if I expected something else maybe I’d be more unhappy.

I, as a suburban FP, make in the upper end of that range. Total work per week including paperwork is around 33-34 hours. I take 6-7 weeks off per year. Home phone call every 2 months. No nights, weekends, holidays except for the 7 or so nights of said home phone call I take per year.

I don't love every single minute I'm at work, but I enjoy most of my days.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

I, as a suburban FP, make in the upper end of that range. Total work per week including paperwork is around 33-34 hours. I take 6-7 weeks off per year. Home phone call every 2 months. No nights, weekends, holidays except for the 7 or so nights of said home phone call I take per year.

I don't love every single minute I'm at work, but I enjoy most of my days.

would you say your practice is the outlier and do you foresee downward wage pressure making this more or less likely in the future? Im at a research focused med school but am very interested in primary care. However also graduating with 300K+ and worried about paying it all back lol

 

[PikminOC]

would you say your practice is the outlier and do you foresee downward wage pressure making this more or less likely in the future? Im at a research focused med school but am very interested in primary care. However also graduating with 300K+ and worried about paying it all back lol

I think it's an outlier. Is that gross or net?

 

[APA 32]

would you say your practice is the outlier and do you foresee downward wage pressure making this more or less likely in the future? Im at a research focused med school but am very interested in primary care. However also graduating with 300K+ and worried about paying it all back lol

Would recommend listening to the white coat investor podcast. Lots of options for paying back your loans as a doctor. I’m staying in academia for at least 5 years to get pslf

 

[Ho0v-man]

would you say your practice is the outlier and do you foresee downward wage pressure making this more or less likely in the future? Im at a research focused med school but am very interested in primary care. However also graduating with 300K+ and worried about paying it all back lol

See this a lot on here. How hard have you worked to this far? Do what you want. Some specialists will make more than you. But in primary care you’ll train half as long as them and have a better job market.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

would you say your practice is the outlier and do you foresee downward wage pressure making this more or less likely in the future? Im at a research focused med school but am very interested in primary care. However also graduating with 300K+ and worried about paying it all back lol

I know lots of FPs making around this, both in my system and elsewhere.

The key is finding the right place to work. There are hospital systems that prioritize primary care and treat us accordingly. Same with private multi specialty groups, though those are somewhat harder to find.

 

[PikminOC]

I know lots of FPs making around this, both in my system and elsewhere.

The key is finding the right place to work. There are hospital systems that prioritize primary care and treat us accordingly. Same with private multi specialty groups, though those are somewhat harder to find.

I've been seeing primary care struggling iny area and selling their practices to hospital systems.

 

[Chromium Surfer]

Would recommend listening to the white coat investor podcast. Lots of options for paying back your loans as a doctor. I’m staying in academia for at least 5 years to get pslf

Thanks for brining this up! Yeah I have read a decent amount of the blog posts and bough the book as well. I was considering doing PSLF but if I only do a 3 year residency it might make more sense to just aggressively pay it off. Definitely living like a resident though

See this a lot on here. How hard have you worked to this far? Do what you want. Some specialists will make more than you. But in primary care you’ll train half as long as them and have a better job market.

Do you mean how hard have I worked towards a career in primary care? I have done a lot of research in health disparities stuff since its a passion of mine and worked at the school free clinic. As it stands im thinking of doing IM and figuring out where to go from there. But I really enjoyed my FM and geriatrics rotations. The culture at our school is for most people to either sub specialize in IM or to go into surgical subspec since we have so many strong programs. That being said I definitely am not concerned about trying to go pound for pound salary wise lol. I also didnt do this to be rich or anything like that. Though I would like to be able to save enough to pay for my kids college and retire without having to worry about if SS will be there to help me when I am older. It seems thats still the case no matter what specialty. Why would you say primary care has a better job market than specialities?

I know lots of FPs making around this, both in my system and elsewhere.

The key is finding the right place to work. There are hospital systems that prioritize primary care and treat us accordingly. Same with private multi specialty groups, though those are somewhat harder to find.

ah gotcha that makes sense! When you say find a hospital system that prioritizes primary care does that essentially mean finding a practice where the salary is high relative to the average? Or are there other markers to be aware of? Appreciate the insight!

 

[Ho0v-man]

Do you mean how hard have I worked towards a career in primary care? I have done a lot of research in health disparities stuff since its a passion of mine and worked at the school free clinic. As it stands im thinking of doing IM and figuring out where to go from there. But I really enjoyed my FM and geriatrics rotations. The culture at our school is for most people to either sub specialize in IM or to go into surgical subspec since we have so many strong programs. That being said I definitely am not concerned about trying to go pound for pound salary wise lol. I also didnt do this to be rich or anything like that. Though I would like to be able to save enough to pay for my kids college and retire without having to worry about if SS will be there to help me when I am older. It seems thats still the case no matter what specialty. Why would you say primary care has a better job market than specialities?

No. I mean how hard have you worked to have a career in medicine? Don’t pick something based on prestige or whatever because I promise no outside of medicine aside from maybe your parents gives a crap or even understands it.

The pay has been brought up quite a bit already. But FP outpatient hours can be VERY good as described by our FP attending in this thread. Yeah you can be an “ologist” of some kind and make over $500k. But outside of derm and other outliers, that typically involves call, weekends, holidays, and just generally more hours per week. Not to mention the years more training. All of this is fine if that’s what you want. I’ve just seen a lot of people not do FM even though they like it because of the supposed perception that they couldn’t do anything else.

I say primary care has a better job market than anything else because it’s just a fact. Sometimes being a sub specialist limits you geographically. Either in the sense that only a large teaching institution can support the kind of care you provide like many peds sub specialties; or that the job market in that desirable city you’ve always wanted to live in or even your hometown is extremely competitive. You also can’t go too rural at times because a bandaid station type hospital oftentimes can’t support the full scope of care a sub specialist is trained to provide. This means you could very well end up in a random small city you’ve never heard of to make those big bucks you’ve been chasing.

OR you could do primary care and have a job just about anywhere by the end of this sentence. A friend of mine from med school was on the fence and went FM ultimately to be able to live wherever he wanted because his spouses career was very geographically limited.

 

[Splenda88]

Treat medicine as a job that pays really well. I happen to like medicine, which I find very strange since I am a matter of fact individual.

 

[PikminOC]

No. I mean how hard have you worked to have a career in medicine? Don’t pick something based on prestige or whatever because I promise no outside of medicine aside from maybe your parents gives a crap or even understands it.

The pay has been brought up quite a bit already. But FP outpatient hours can be VERY good as described by our FP attending in this thread. Yeah you can be an “ologist” of some kind and make over $500k. But outside of derm and other outliers, that typically involves call, weekends, holidays, and just generally more hours per week. Not to mention the years more training. All of this is fine if that’s what you want. I’ve just seen a lot of people not do FM even though they like it because of the supposed perception that they couldn’t do anything else.

I say primary care has a better job market than anything else because it’s just a fact. Sometimes being a sub specialist limits you geographically. Either in the sense that only a large teaching institution can support the kind of care you provide like many peds sub specialties; or that the job market in that desirable city you’ve always wanted to live in or even your hometown is extremely competitive. You also can’t go too rural at times because a bandaid station type hospital oftentimes can’t support the full scope of care a sub specialist is trained to provide. This means you could very well end up in a random small city you’ve never heard of to make those big bucks you’ve been chasing.

OR you could do primary care and have a job just about anywhere by the end of this sentence. A friend of mine from med school was on the fence and went FM ultimately to be able to live wherever he wanted because his spouses career was very geographically limited.

Yes you can have a job anywhere but is it a job you want? NP to supervise etc?
My endo friend at a hospital bends herself backwards, is a medical director, supervises two midlevels makes 350..

 

[Splenda88]

People like to vent...

I actually think it's easy to make money in medicine and the job itself is not that bad. You could be at the bottom 10% in term of competency as a physician and still make 300-500k/yr.

I volunteered for habitat for humanity in 2013 to beef up my application for med school and It was when I realized what it's like to work hard.

Don't get me wrong! I complain a lot so admin can make my job easier but my job is not that bad as a hospitalist.

I got to work ~7:15 am; get my free Starbucks coffee at the hospital Starbucks. Vent a little while doing chart review until 7:45 am. See patient from 7:45am to 10 am. Then write some notes and then take ~45 mins lunch. Finish all the notes and tight some loose end around 2-3pm and watch CNBC until 4:15pm and then go home. I got 350k/yr working 7 days on/off doing that.

Made 405k last year without breaking my back. Never thought a day in my life I would be able to afford $700+/night hotel vacation stay.

I have a colleague who just transitioned from outpatient PCP to do hospital medicine in my group. He found other hospitalists covering his every other weekend. He is basically working M-F every other week from 7am-4:15p making ~260yr (brilliant from his part). How many jobs out there one can have that kind of flexibility while making 250k+/yr? Not that many.

If you put things into perspective, medicine is not that bad. It's called work, meaning you have to spend some energy to do it.

 

[PikminOC]

People like to vent...

I actually think it's easy to make money in medicine and the job itself is not that bad. You could be at the bottom 10% in term of competency as a physician and still make 300-500k/yr.

I volunteered for habitat for humanity in 2013 to beef up my application for med school and It was when I realized what it's like to work hard.

Don't get me wrong! I complain a lot so admin can make my job easier but my job is not that bad as a hospitalist.

I got to work ~7:15 am; get my free Starbucks coffee at the hospital Starbucks. Vent a little while doing chart review until 7:45 am. See patient from 7:45am to 10 am. Then write some notes and then take ~45 mins lunch. Finish all the notes and tight some loose end around 2-3pm and watch CNBC until 4:15pm and then go home. I got 350k/yr working 7 days on/off doing that.

Made 405k last year without breaking my back. Never thought a day in my life I would be able to afford $700+/night hotel vacation stay.

I have a colleague who just transitioned for outpatient PCP to do hospital medicine in my group. He found other hospitalists covering his every other weekend. He is basically working M-F every other week from 7am-4:15p making ~260yr. How many jobs out there one can find that kind of flexibility while making 250k+/yr? Not that many.

If you have put things into perspective, medicine is not that bad. It's called work, meaning you have to spend some energy to do it.

I disagree. The numbers you guys are referring to aren't the average mgma data which is what hospitals use. There can be outliers of course but it's not the majority.

Hospitalist work is not easy. There's a reason it's one week on one week off.

 

[Splenda88]

I disagree. The numbers you guys are referring to aren't the average mgma data which is what hospitals use. There can be outliers of course but it's not the majority.

Hospitalist work is not easy. There's a reason it's one week on one week off.

I am someone who don't put too much stocks on MGMA average and median because too many physicians work part time. One has just to find the right setting.

Hospital work is not easy everywhere, but you will find places where it's not difficult. For instance, one of my former co-residents who is also a friend work in a small town in Missouri got to work between 9-9:30 am and is out by 3pm week on/off for 300k/yr.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Yes you can have a job anywhere but is it a job you want? NP to supervise etc?
My endo friend at a hospital bends herself backwards, is a medical director, supervises two midlevels makes 350..

That’s not a problem specific to primary care which I’m sure you realize is obvious given that your friend is a specialist. Heck, it’s not even a problem specific to medicine.

It’s just the classic dilemma if any job: workload, location, pay. Most people pick 2 but sounds like your friend picked location only is what I’m guessing. People take garbage deals all the time because they just have to live in a certain place. I don’t even care about endo and I know she has better options.

I’ve no doubt she realizes she’s getting screwed with that workload. There’s literally an FM attending in this thread who makes that working bankers hours.

 

[PikminOC]

That’s not a problem specific to primary care which I’m sure you realize is obvious given that your friend is a specialist. Heck, it’s not even a problem specific to medicine.

It’s just the classic dilemma if any job: workload, location, pay. Most people pick 2 but sounds like your friend picked location only is what I’m guessing. People take garbage deals all the time because they just have to live in a certain place. I don’t even care about endo and I know she has better options.

I’ve no doubt she realizes she’s getting screwed with that workload. There’s literally an FM attending in this thread who makes that working bankers hours.

It's not a garbage deal. For someone who works in a hospital setting she is getting a very good salary.

 

[PikminOC]

That’s not a problem specific to primary care which I’m sure you realize is obvious given that your friend is a specialist. Heck, it’s not even a problem specific to medicine.

It’s just the classic dilemma if any job: workload, location, pay. Most people pick 2 but sounds like your friend picked location only is what I’m guessing. People take garbage deals all the time because they just have to live in a certain place. I don’t even care about endo and I know she has better options.

I’ve no doubt she realizes she’s getting screwed with that workload. There’s literally an FM attending in this thread who makes that working bankers hours.

Once again I'm referring to what a hospital is willing to pay and they use mgma data even if you don't.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Once again I'm referring to what a hospital is willing to pay and they use mgma data even if you don't.

Okay. So I’m a little confused. You made a post saying that a job might not be good just because FM has a good job market. As an example, you listed a specialists job description and salary which I thought was an example of a bad job the way you described it but you’re defending it saying it’s actually a good job (or at least good salary). I disagree, but I don’t care.

I’m not sure what any of this has to do with me saying FM has the best job market.