I was wondering how important would having research experiences be for residency programs. The issue (or not) is that I'm not sure what I want to do yet. Would having research experiences bolster my app moreso than leadership experiences?
-
New SDN Article: “The Boards”: USMLE Overview
Depends on the field you want to go into. Certain fields, like rad oncology or dermatology, having research is almost a must.
General consensus is to do research if you enjoy it. Research does make your application more competitive.
General consensus is to do research if you enjoy it. Research does make your application more competitive.
I recommend you do research in whatever interests you, until you find what you want to specialize in.
With the merge coming up, it'll become much more important, especially for some of the highly competitive fields like ortho, derm, ENT, and optho. You will now be competing against MD applicants who most likely will have some sort of research experience. Additionally, with ACGME accreditation, research output will be required for previous AOA programs.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Last edited:
My school has research but if it doesn't interest me, i'm not going to do it. I plan on being involved in clubs that interests me vs doing research just for my resumes sake. Just my 2 cents.
Yes. Source: Program directors at my home program
Is research necessary to match into desirable locations? Or is a high step score, likeable personality, and good work ethic enough?
so many variables.... but my clinical mentor at my school said it best:
So for your example: "If you have 2 students and both of them have a high step score, likeable personality, and good work ethic, but ONE of them also has research and the other doesn't.... who am I going to pick?" To keep it short, it's always best to put your best foot forward.
So for your example: "If you have 2 students and both of them have a high step score, likeable personality, and good work ethic, but ONE of them also has research and the other doesn't.... who am I going to pick?" To keep it short, it's always best to put your best foot forward.
But if that student studied the mating habits of African Crickets in the Congo, I would choose the other guy/girl...
Like you said. MANY variables.
Knowing how to do research is more important than what your research is about.But if that student studied the mating habits of African Crickets in the Congo, I would choose the other guy/girl...
Like you said. MANY variables.
I would dispute that.
And I would wager a bet that most medical students know HOW to do research.
Lmaoooo. I SHOULD HAVE DONE MY RESEARCH ON AFRICAN CRICKETS IN THE CONGO! dang it SDN, why didn't you tell me this sooner?!!But if that student studied the mating habits of African Crickets in the Congo, I would choose the other guy/girl...
Like you said. MANY variables.
You'd be wrong in both cases. How many medical students have designed an experiment, written the manuscript and submitted it for publication at a peer-reviewed journal? In my experience that number is less than 15%
In 2013 it was 20.9% having published articles. 81.7% partook in research while in school, doesn't say how many submitted.
It's in the NIH database, just going off what I read.
Taking part in research and knowing how to do research are not the same. Apparently your reading comprehension needs work. Residency programs aren't looking for someone who has done data extraction or who has sat in a lab plating specimens or washing dishes. They need students/residents who can lead a research team that will result in publication. If that knowledge was gained on some random project, so be it, but medical students aren't on projects studying the mating habits of crickets in Africa. The fact is that most (all?) ACGME programs require their residents to be involved in research. You can try and tell the program directors you didn't get involved in research because it didn't interest you, but I doubt that attitude will go over well no matter what field you are trying to get into.
His reading comprehension doesn't need work. You said an open-ended statement of "knowing how to do research." Knowing how to do research is such a vague statement on its own. It can be interpreted in many ways, and NickMT responded based on the way he interpreted it. No need to bash others on here.
My reading comprehension is fine. Thanks doc.
I'll take my 6 years of ICU/ER RN experience over random research any day. I'd rather spend my free time with my wife and baby. That is all, I mean no disrespect by saying that...
Didn't mean to complicate/hijack this thread OP.
And how many medical students actually meet these criteria that you are stating? The medical students I knew just basically "jumped on" a project and did some work which resulted in a pub (they did no proposal, and no IRB, and probably didn't even see the project to completion). Only a freshly minted PhD in nearly 100% of cases would actually meet that criteria because it was a requirement for them, but for a medical student research is at the level of an elective...
- Thread Starter
- #21
Well wasn't expecting this to derail a little. Anywhoo, Im more interested in leadership experiences rather than research. I have ~4 years of research in undergrad and post-graduation. Im just not a big fan of basic bench work.
Nope. Not at all.
I agree with Dr. Death. Knowing the process of coming up with a research plan, implementing that plan, and then knowing how to write the manuscript is far more important to residencies than what your research was actually on.
Just because I did a bunch of projects where I injected mice doesn't mean that I understand the process of doing research.
Bench work sucks, lucky for us most medical school research is not bench research. Research is essentially becoming a pseudo-requirement for many residencies these days. Our home programs are now placing a much higher emphasis on applicants with research experience because the ACGME has stringent research requirements and the programs need people who know how to get things done.
- Thread Starter
- #24
So I have ~2 years of research in undergrad and half-year working as a lab tech, but that was a while ago. Would that still be relevant or would I need to brush up on my research? Would taking a bioinformatics approach be considered research?
It's still relevant but from talking to people in places of knowledge it gets less weight than research done in medical school. And absolutely to the bolded, I personally know someone with multiple impressive pubs using a bioststistics/informatics approach. Not all relevant research is bench research (honestly I would argue that bench research is extremely ineffective because so much of it is completely irrelevant to clinical practice)
It was fairly clear that was Dr. Death's point.
- May 10, 2013
- 7,693
- 6,983
- Status
- Medical Student
Just as an FYI, the "publications" shown within ERAS data regarding research sometimes includes published abstracts within sponsoring organization journals. I am only aware of 2 class mates who have been first authors on full manuscripts. The amount of work that takes is enormous within the 4 years of medical school unless one has already had their data collected and is tying lose ends or goes to a school in which an entire year can be dedicated to research.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
So how is it done then? We had a Derm program director mention that it's not that hard to do 2-4 publications during 3rd and 4th year. Just find a case you think is unique, ask for permission to do a write-up on it, and you're good. Is that true? Can anyone share their experience with this? I'm an OMS-1, but I did a masters so I've had gross anatomy and pretty much everything involved with first year. I feel like now would be a great time to do research, but it's like pulling teeth trying to find a mentor who's going to actually publish something.
sorry, I'm going to have to disagree with your thoughts on research - although I agree I'd rather be hanging out with my wife and kids over research and that most research has no clinical bearing; as well work experience is probably more important when all is said and done.My reading comprehension is fine. Thanks doc.
I'll take my 6 years of ICU/ER RN experience over random research any day. I'd rather spend my free time with my wife and baby. That is all, I mean no disrespect by saying that...
Didn't mean to complicate/hijack this thread OP.
HOWEVER, currently research/publications are the hottest commodity among DO residencies as the ACGME merger begins. 95% of the latest rejections for ACGME accreditation sited inadequate "scholarly activity" as an area to resolve (source: discussed with our ACGME auditor and multiple PDs since my program is going through the process). AOA residencies are scrambling to build research framework (source: again we are working with multiple PDs and midwestern OPTI to do the same, and see one of my publications I worked on "Osteopathic graduate medical education: new research standards needed" The Journal of the American Osteopathic Association, May 2014, Vol. 114, 336-339).
ACGME residencies have always emphasized research.
So how important is research. Very important, even if it's crickets in the congo because you can cite it as an experience during your interview process that taught design of research projects, statistical analysis, manuscript writing, etc etc.
Research can help PDs overlook a lower board score or other deficits in your application (i've been involved in resident selection for the last 4 years, I've seen research make a difference).
That being said, research can't cover up laziness, poor patient interaction skills, bad attitudes, etc -
So in the end - be the complete package which includes doing some research. Its actually easy to find projects in your field of interest (if you don't know what specialty you are interested in, who cares, do a project that seems interesting . I had 3 pediatric publications that helped me in the end match ortho). Residents are always interested in finding students to help. Also the majority of AOAO annual specialty conferences accept nearly every submitted poster. A lot of the students who rotate through our program end up publishing posters with us... which obviously is a huge boon for their acceptance into our residency.
Disclaimer - my own opinion
I plan on doing research between 1st and 2nd year if possible. I'm lucky to have done some already, just in nursing related stuff. Not sure if that counts now... anyways, I wasn't trying to be a butthead, I just want to pass the first semester before i start worrying about nailing down a summer research gig. I get that research is important and needed, I just want the research that i'm involved in to be interesting and fun if possible.
Your post should be stickied. It isn't just your opinion either, it is what is being said at all of our home programs here.
So on residency apps, go ahead and list research experience that didn't result in publication? I did a ton in my masters and it's looking like the PI isn't going to get it published. I also did some in my post-bacc. I'm trying to be proactive and get some relevant surgical research in during M1&2, but it would be comforting to know I can claim that previous work and that it might move the needle a bit.
- May 10, 2013
- 7,693
- 6,983
- Status
- Medical Student
You can do that but you have to put the date. Med school research carries much more weight than undergrad or even research. What carries the most weight is if your abstracts get accepted to national conferences, if you get invited or the first author of the work you helped on requires them to do an oral presentation at such conferences, or you get a manuscript accepted to a peer reviewed journal. No one is expect NEJM, JAMA, or the Lancet. I've seen a lot of PLoS One journal pubs as well as specialty specific pubs not usually the highest impact ones however.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
I would choose Congo guy with more confidenceBut if that student studied the mating habits of African Crickets in the Congo, I would choose the other guy/girl...
Like you said. MANY variables.
Yeah, I'd take random research project over turning patients for 6 yearsMy reading comprehension is fine. Thanks doc.
I'll take my 6 years of ICU/ER RN experience over random research any day. I'd rather spend my free time with my wife and baby. That is all, I mean no disrespect by saying that...
Didn't mean to complicate/hijack this thread OP.
And I'm sure your premed patient contact is SOOO much better...
You can delete your post in a few years when a nurse saves your medical license
Its just the way the game is played.
When you get into medical school, the one experience that helps the most is having clinical experience (i.e. such as being a scribe). It make sense since these dudes have it easier when doing their SOAP notes (of course they have to get rid of old habits, but at least the experience isn't completely alien to them). So these guys can study that extra hour or two on biochem while the non-clinical experience people have to put that time into hone their SOAP note skills.
However, when apply for residency, have research is huge because research is a requirement. It will mean having more time to focus on clinical skills and less time trying to figure out how to do citations for your research...
When you get into medical school, the one experience that helps the most is having clinical experience (i.e. such as being a scribe). It make sense since these dudes have it easier when doing their SOAP notes (of course they have to get rid of old habits, but at least the experience isn't completely alien to them). So these guys can study that extra hour or two on biochem while the non-clinical experience people have to put that time into hone their SOAP note skills.
However, when apply for residency, have research is huge because research is a requirement. It will mean having more time to focus on clinical skills and less time trying to figure out how to do citations for your research...
The "clinical experience" you get as a pre-med isn't so that you come to medical school with any clinical skills. There's zero assumption that you're arriving with any knowledge - it's more to gauge your exposure to medicine and your commitment to the profession. Whether or not you were an EMT or Nurse or candy striper prior to matriculation doesn't really help you learn the Kreb's Cycle any better or help you understand the pathophysiology behind congestive heart failure.
You'll find soon enough that having been a nurse for 6 years doesn't give you nearly as much of a leg up in medical school as you'd think. Even when the end goal is the same (patient care), the roles and responsibilities are vastly different, and the expectations are different.
I was just slightly offended by the "patient turning" comment... It's not a very good attitude to have towards a profession that he/she will have daily contact with for the rest of their career. Especially since he/she is still a med student, based on their avatar info.
You get exposure to the field as a premed. There is no assumption that you come with skills. In fact, it's better to teach a clean slate than it is to correct someone with improper skills and etiquette.
I already have many stories of how I had to teach a nurse due to their gap in knowledge. You can go ahead and delete your post though because without us physicians you'd be like chicken running with your heads cut off.
Maybe you should try not to **** on research because evidence based medicine wouldn't exist without it. Even though my many years in basic science labs doesn't directly translate to patient care, I know my work contributed to understanding science better and these skills I can use in the future to push my field forward.
You seem very defensive of your career as a nurse. If you enjoyed the profession so much why make the switch to becoming a physician? You'd have plenty of autonomy by becoming a DNP so there must be some reason why you became disenchanted with nursing. Not bashing on you just food for thought.
I didn't enjoy my time as a nurse. I'm thankful for the experiences but it wasn't for me. Though I did not like the profession, i am very protective of my friends who work in the trenches and keep healthcare running on a daily basis. Nursing is a HARD job - no one should belittle them.
NPs and DNPs are great but they don't have complete autonomy in all states. I also like being in class, most of those programs are ~75% online. So, why go to DNP school for 3-3.5 years if MD/DO is 4?
Price is similar for the good programs, Time is similar, education is better in med school(just my opinion), and more opportunities for med school grads.
PAs are trained under the medical model. I have worked with many of them and I know the gap in knowledge that they have and resulting over-treatment, over-testing, etc. Of course, this is a generality and there are different levels of skills in both PA and MD/DO. However, a PA will likely have an easier time clinically at first, but they will have to fill those gaps. On the other hand, you are a nurse, so this is a moot point.
NPs are a joke. I know you don't like hearing it, but you're nothing more than hired help for us. Ultimately patient care falls on our hands, and that means that your mess ups we have to be responsible for.
You can call it resume padding, but that research created results nonetheless.
Can anyone speak to the need to do research in my desired specialty? I got presented with an opportunity to do anesthesiology research but I'm more interested in gen surg/ortho at this point. Is it better to hold off and try to find surgery related research?
If you know you can jump into surg/orth surgery, go for it. If anesthesia is the only one, take it because any research is valid. I'd say research for surgical fields is becoming increasingly a necessity for DOs after the merger. Many surgery programs have 1 to 2 year research injected into the residency, so having people at ease that you understand the process is always seen as a positive.
So best to hold off on doing the anesthesiology research? Was planning to shoot out some inquires about surg research tonight/tomorrow and see if I get any hits early next week before doing the anesthesia one.
- May 10, 2013
- 7,693
- 6,983
- Status
- Medical Student
Shoot to both anesthesia and gen surg. There's no guarantee you'll get a bite from either. Do whatever one says yes if it's both that's great. I think at this point of the stage you might as well dabble in different projects in different specialties. M2 won't be as forgiving so get as much as you can in the way of research. I did this with GI between M1 and M2.
Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
How are you doing in your class so far? I would hold off on any of these plans until after the 1st semester.