How is it fair....

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PurpleLove said:
I did this, but they are not helpful for the most part. I always attend office hours. There hasn't been one professor in which I did not. 🙁
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Talk to who is in charge of the premedical committee or your advisor. If you tell them you have gone to office hours and exhausted all other options, maybe they can give you better advice.
 
cjcarter said:
Talk to who is in charge of the premedical committee or your advisor. If you tell them you have gone to office hours and exhausted all other options, maybe they can give you better advice.
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My premed adviser pulled the post-bacc lists out and my adviser pulled the, "many people are struggling card...". But I agree, I need to find help.
 
BamaNicole said:
That is subjective and if left open to interpretation can you honestly pit grade 1 against grade 2?

I don't think so.
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No. An A is an A to admissions, but what it took to earn that A is not the same, always.
 
PurpleLove said:
My premed adviser pulled the post-bacc lists out and my adviser pulled the, "many people are struggling card...". But I agree, I need to find help.
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You aren't going to find much help from professors or the administration. If your college offers study counseling, that is the first place I would go. But, as I said in my last post, I think the best way to learn to improve your study habits is from other students.
 
Euxox said:
You aren't going to find much help from the administration. If your college offers study counseling, that is the first place I would go. But, as I said in my last post, I think the best way to learn to improve your study habits is from other students.
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Very true, will do so. How do you find the top students? People don't really talk about grades here.
 
PurpleLove said:
My premed adviser pulled the post-bacc lists out and my adviser pulled the, "many people are struggling card...". But I agree, I need to find help.
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There's really nothing wrong with doing a post-bacc. It's a great way to boost your application and you get a masters degree. Win win.
 
BamaNicole said:
Is there a system in place that pits an A from state u against an A from a top 20? I leaning towards no. No matter where you are you still have to learn the same material.
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You ignore the realities of grading among institutions. At some top schools there exists the potential for downward curves and depending on the institution, there can be variations in the rigor of the exams and the way the material is taught. I'm not going to cause the thread to erupt into a debate that will further the self-loathing seen in this thread, but my thoughts are pretty much contained here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-premed-students.1054207/page-3#post-14883576

Also, with regards to a formal "system" there isn't some magic algorithm, but that is not the same as saying there is no effect at all.
 
cjcarter said:
There's really nothing wrong with doing a post-bacc. It's a great way to boost your application and you get a masters degree. Win win.
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Probably will do one, I just want to improve my grades here. If I can't make it here, medical school would be a nightmare.
 
PurpleLove said:
No. An A is an A to admissions, but what it took to earn that A is not the same, always.
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I agree that some schools are harder than others. That said, I think you are making it out to be a bigger gap than there really is. I think the most you may be granted compared to another applicant would be .3 or so if they went to a much less known school. At least that's the feeling I get from talking to adcoms. Its hard to hate on people from lesser known schools that get 4.0s either way though. What else can you ask of them?
 
Willy38 said:
I agree that some schools are harder than others. That said, I think you are making it out to be a bigger gap than there really is. I think the most you may be granted compared to another applicant would be .3 or so if they went to a much less known school. At least that's the feeling I get from talking to adcoms. Its hard to hate on people from lesser known schools that get 4.0s either way though. What else can you ask of them?
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There is a big gap between some schools. Probably not DePaul and UC, but UC and the Chicago Community Colleges, yes.
 
PurpleLove said:
Very true, will do so. How do you find the top students? People don't really talk about grades here.
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Same at my college, but I dunno, it always seemed kind of obvious who was doing well and who wasn't. I guess you can tell in the days before the exam who seems prepared.
 
knv2u said:
You ignore the realities of grading among institutions. At some top schools there exists the potential for downward curves and depending on the institution, there can be variations in the rigor of the exams and the way the material is taught. I'm not going to cause the thread to erupt into a debate that will further the self-loathing seen in this thread, but my thoughts are pretty much contained here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-premed-students.1054207/page-3#post-14883576

Also, with regards to a formal "system" there isn't some magic algorithm, but that is not the same as saying there is no effect at all.
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Whatever effect there is....its miniscule. I wish there was more weight given to what insitution the grades come from but its not enough to make a difference. An A in organic chemistry is an A in organic chemistry.
 
BamaNicole said:
Whatever effect there is....its miniscule. I wish there was more weight given to what insitution the grades come from but its not enough to make a difference. An A in organic chemistry is an A in organic chemistry.
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Then why do people who got As in community colleges (Orgo) before taking it here have to work harder and get worse grades?
 
PurpleLove said:
There is a big gap between some schools. Probably not DePaul and UC, but UC and the Chicago Community Colleges, yes.
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Agreed but community college is obviously different than a 4 year institution. As has been stated earlier, taking courses at community college should be a last resort except for financial reasons etc. (particularly pre reqs)
 
Willy38 said:
Agreed but community college is obviously different than a 4 year institution. As has been stated earlier, taking courses at community college should be a last resort except for financial reasons etc. (particularly pre reqs)
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Ahhh okay, I'm gonna stop bitching now haha.
 
PurpleLove said:
Very true, will do so. How do you find the top students? People don't really talk about grades here.
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Typically at the front of the class asking questions they already know the answers to. If you have labs, look for the people who look like they know what they're doing yet still finish the lab relatively quickly (some will finish the labs quickly but not give a care as to what they put down)
 
Boolean said:
Typically at the front of the class asking questions they already know the answers to. If you have labs, look for the people who look like they know what they're doing yet still finish the lab relatively quickly (some will finish the labs quickly but not give a care as to what they put down)
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A few people come to mind. 😀
 
BamaNicole said:
poor studying.

Here's a question.....Why would they take orgo twice if they got an A?
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Well they took it at CC's to do well here. My school won't take the credit and they want the A from U of Chicago on their transcript.
 
PurpleLove said:
A few people come to mind. 😀
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Try asking them next time how they're doing in the class, and if it is better than you are, ask them what their study habits are, or perhaps see if they have/want to join a study group
 
BamaNicole said:
poor studying.

Here's a question.....Why would they take orgo twice if they got an A?
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Some medical schools won't accept community college credits at all, and some will accept them but state that the courses are looked down upon.
 
I will! 😀
Boolean said:
Try asking them next time how they're doing in the class, and if it is better than you are, ask them what their study habits are, or perhaps see if they have/want to join a study group
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Willy38 said:
Agreed but community college is obviously different than a 4 year institution. As has been stated earlier, taking courses at community college should be a last resort except for financial reasons etc. (particularly pre reqs)
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I'll catch crap for this, but some 4 year schools are glorified/extended community colleges.
 
JT3 said:
you should check out the underdog thread, plenty of people with low numbers can swing an MD spot
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Very cool, but doing a SMP is actually pretty appealing to me now. 😀
I'll see where I stand next year.
 
knv2u said:
You ignore the realities of grading among institutions. At some top schools there exists the potential for downward curves and depending on the institution, there can be variations in the rigor of the exams and the way the material is taught. I'm not going to cause the thread to erupt into a debate that will further the self-loathing seen in this thread, but my thoughts are pretty much contained here:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-premed-students.1054207/page-3#post-14883576

Also, with regards to a formal "system" there isn't some magic algorithm, but that is not the same as saying there is no effect at all.
Click to expand...

I forgot to mention this in that other thread @knv2u , but at one of my interviews (Geisel), one of the people in admissions told us that, indeed, some schools do use algorithms like the one you're suggesting doesn't exist to calculate likelihood of success in medical school. :uhno: (Not at Geisel, though). This surprises me, honestly. I'm surprised it's not more of a rule of thumb about which schools are grade deflating and, primarily, basing things on MCAT differences.

Also, I was wondering what you make of situations in which the opposite of expectation occurs (Expected = a low-ish GPA but high MCAT at a prestigious school, and Unexpected = a high GPA but low MCAT at this same grade-deflating school.) For example, I know someone at Hopkins who pulled some ridiculous GPA (3.9+) but then couldn't get 29+ on the MCAT. I am forced to believe that this situation is much less likely than a student who gets a 3.6 at Hopkins and a 35, but I still find it disturbing when considering the model you've proposed for judging GPA relative to the talent pool (as judged by SAT scores) at one's undergraduate institution. I think I mentioned this example in the other thread, as well, but it just doesn't make sense to me how someone could murder it like that a grade-deflating institution like Hopkins [this suggests that the person is a good standardized test taker (i.e., they must have performed well on the SAT)] taking all pre-requisites (Orgo, Physics, Bio, etc.) and then forgetting how to study for the MCAT.

More generally, I am interested to see if you think that examples like this one have forced (some or many) medical school admissions committees into positions that - more or less - the prestige and/or grade-deflating reputation of undergraduate school is irrelevant and that a 3.7 at random state school is the same as a 3.7 at Hopkins/Chicago/Princeton.

Also, do you think that the MCAT is the gold standard? An example: Candidate A has 3.7 and 36 from Penn State. Candidate B has 3.7 and 34 from University of Chicago. Who is the better candidate?

knv2u said:
I'll catch crap for this, but some 4 year schools are glorified/extended community colleges.
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I go to an lol-random state school, and I agree with this. I think the language used (the 'glorified/extended' descriptor comes to mind...) is a little distracting, but you're right in that a 3.5 at Rutgers simply doesn't mean the same thing as a 3.5 at Princeton. Everything comes back to the MCAT, right?

As always, thanks for your thoughts.

Editted to add the second quote and consolidate what would have been two posts that address the same issue.
 
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Ace-Co-A said:
I forgot to mention this in that other thread @knv2u , but at one of my interviews (Geisel), one of the people in admissions told us that, indeed, some schools do use algorithms like the one you're suggesting doesn't exist to calculate likelihood of success in medical school. :uhno: (Not at Geisel, though). This surprises me, honestly. I'm surprised it's not more of a rule of thumb about which schools are grade deflating and, primarily, basing things on MCAT differences.

Also, I was wondering what you make of situations in which the opposite of expectation occurs (Expected = a low-ish GPA but high MCAT at a prestigious school, and Unexpected = a high GPA but low MCAT at this same grade-deflating school.) For example, I know someone at Hopkins who pulled some ridiculous GPA (3.9+) but then couldn't get 29+ on the MCAT. I am forced to believe that this situation is much less likely than a student who gets a 3.6 at Hopkins and a 35, but I still find it disturbing when considering the model you've proposed for judging GPA relative to the talent pool (as judged by SAT scores) at one's undergraduate institution. I think I mentioned this example in the other thread, as well, but it just doesn't make sense to me how someone could murder it like that a grade-deflating institution like Hopkins [this suggests that the person is a good standardized test taker (i.e., they must have performed well on the SAT)] taking all pre-requisites (Orgo, Physics, Bio, etc.) and then forgetting how to study for the MCAT.

More generally, I am interested to see if you think that examples like this one have forced (some or many) medical school admissions committees into positions that - more or less - the prestige and/or grade-deflating reputation of undergraduate school is irrelevant and that a 3.7 at random state school is the same as a 3.7 at Hopkins/Chicago/Princeton.

Also, do you think that the MCAT is the gold standard? An example: Candidate A has 3.7 and 36 from Penn State. Candidate B has 3.7 and 34 from University of Chicago. Who is the better candidate?

As always, thanks for your thoughts.
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I think the most beautiful thing about medical school admissions is the fact that there isn't simply a gold standard. You can't just get one single thing (such as an MCAT, high GPA, what have you) and say, oh, I'm in. It encourages diversity, it creates a varied group of docs, and most importantly, it keeps people on their toes. Sure, the uncertainty of the whole situation can be unnerving, but I personally find it to be a bit refreshing.
 
PurpleLove said:
Very cool, but doing a SMP is actually pretty appealing to me now. 😀
I'll see where I stand next year.
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Its my back-up as well, a $50k backup 🙁 I like the idea of an SMP over a post bacc personally. I like the idea of having tangible evidence of your medical school performance. The alumni lists tend to be decent

http://smp.georgetown.edu/alumni
 
JT3 said:
Its my back-up as well, a $50k backup 🙁 I like the idea of an SMP over a post bacc personally. I like the idea of having tangible evidence of your medical school performance. The alumni lists tend to be decent

http://smp.georgetown.edu/alumni
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That is pretty impressive. :/
I was looking at Loyola's, somewhat cheaper, but I bet Georgetown's is more impressive to admissions?
 
knv2u said:
I'll catch crap for this, but some 4 year schools are glorified/extended community colleges.
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I'm sure there are some out there, but adcoms probably know which ones these are. My school is not very well known outside the southeast but is definitely a tougher LAC (routinely sends pre meds to Emory and Wake) and I know at our state med school we are awarded +.4 gpa (as are some other schools in the region). All that to say that some schools do account for rigor of academics during UG.
 
Boolean said:
I think the most beautiful thing about medical school admissions is the fact that there isn't simply a gold standard. You can't just get one single thing (such as an MCAT, high GPA, what have you) and say, oh, I'm in. It encourages diversity, it creates a varied group of docs, and most importantly, it keeps people on their toes. Sure, the uncertainty of the whole situation can be unnerving, but I personally find it to be a bit refreshing.
Click to expand...

I agree and the diversity element of the admission process is important, but I think it is clear that a combination of high MCAT and high GPA is critical. I admit that this was not the way I phrased it in the post (i.e., I said that the MCAT is the gold standard, but in truth the combination is important).
 
PurpleLove said:
That is pretty impressive. :/
I was looking at Loyola's, somewhat cheaper, but I bet Georgetown's is more impressive to admissions?
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Thats def closer for you, and it comes with
  • A guaranteed admission interview at the Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine for students who achieve a GPA in MAMS of 3.5 or higher and whose most recent MCAT score is a 30 or higher. This statement applies to all students matriculating to the MAMS program for Fall 2010 and later years.
Not bad not bad
 
JT3 said:
Thats def closer for you, and it comes with
  • A guaranteed admission interview at the Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine for students who achieve a GPA in MAMS of 3.5 or higher and whose most recent MCAT score is a 30 or higher. This statement applies to all students matriculating to the MAMS program for Fall 2010 and later years.
Not bad not bad
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Yep! But 5 more years in Chicago.... Haha.
 
Meh, a lot of you are missing the point of Admissions. Who honestly gives a cr*p who has the most "A"s, the highest MCAT, the highest ring to index finger ratio, or the nicest black suit. Frankly, those things are all beside the point. Yeah, sure, they make some impact on your Admissions decision, but the fact of the matter is that the Office of Admissions' job isn't to find the pre-meds who worked the hardest to get there or the pre-meds who are smartest or the students who take standardized exams or interview the best. IMHO, besides attracting talented students to the institution, the job of medical school Admissions is evaluative and two-fold:

1) Identify those individuals most likely to effectively meet the present and future healthcare needs of the school's state, regional, and national populations
2) Build an effective learning community that will best facilitate the achievement of goal #1

Everything else you all are squabbling about it is just minor stuff. Yeah, it seems unfair, important, whatever, but it's beside the point. As I said before, I wouldn't want an entire class of high-MCAT/high-GPA HYPS students. Yes, it's something my school could get if they really wanted to (there are more than enough floating around), but there's a reason I didn't apply to WashU...and it wasn't my MCAT score (nor my GPA or having only one first author pub along w/ a few first author presentations as an UG).

Bottom line: Your MCAT score, GPA, and academic institution matter only insofar as they directly impact your future potential as a physician. I think most people would prefer diverse experiences to a bunch of robotic, like-minded med students and physicians. I know I would.
 
PurpleLove said:
Yep! But 5 more years in Chicago.... Haha.
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I guess you gotta figure with all the med schools in Chi-town you have tons of opportunities for networking, and U of C is by far the premier UG and medical school so you'll have some prestige under your belt.

I work in DC, not a big fan. I'd take Chicago
 
JT3 said:
I guess you gotta figure with all the med schools in Chi-town you have tons of opportunities for networking, and U of C is by far the premier UG and medical school so you'll have some prestige under your belt.

I work in DC, not a big fan. I'd take Chicago
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Really? Ah I gotta see more of the US!
And yeah, I need to network more.
I'm just such a shy person in real life (hard to believe, I know).

But in the end:
we-re-all-gonna-make-it-brah-t-shirt_design.png

haha
 
music2doc said:
Bottom line: Your MCAT score, GPA, and academic institution matter only insofar as they directly impact your future potential as a physician. I think most people would prefer diverse experiences to a bunch of robotic, like-minded med students and physicians. I know I would.
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I completely agree. Your GPA and MCAT should be decent to show you can handle the academic rigors of med school......but they're not going show you're going to be a great doctor.
 
J Senpai said:
Ridiculous. I stopped paying attention to this thing on Friday. Come Monday, 1000+ replies. 😵

I hope some progress was made.
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Mostly likely not and OP will be sitting here reading 21 pages trying to find the useful comments that actually help
Karma karma karma
 
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