How long should the lock down last?

[Torsion]

People, especially educated and intelligent people, should have no difficulty distinguishing the peaceful protests in support of criminal justice reform from the opportunistic rioters and looters. Saying "they're all the same" is not even attempting to analyze the situation objectively. Looting is a frequent occurrence whenever there is a natural disaster, civil unrest, or even a blackout. If anyone didn't expect this to occur they must have lived off-grid under a rock their entire lives.

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[Birdstrike]

People, especially educated and intelligent people, should have no difficulty distinguishing the peaceful protests in support of criminal justice reform from the opportunistic rioters and looters. Saying "they're all the same" is not even attempting to analyze the situation objectively. Looting is a frequent occurrence whenever there is a natural disaster, civil unrest, or even a blackout. If anyone didn't expect this to occur they must have lived off-grid under a rock their entire lives.

Since we're all anonymous here, doctor, please let us know a little bit about the times you, friends or family looted in response to natural disasters, power outages and moments of civil unrest.

 

[Torsion]

Since we're all anonymous here, doctor, please let us know a little bit about the times you, friends or family looted in response to natural disasters, power outages and moments of civil unrest.

I don't condone the looting nor have I ever taken part. I have no idea how you gathered that from my post. The bolded remains true. Looting or any opportunistic endeavor is far more likely when the proper authorities are unable to respond or otherwise preoccupied, such as for example during a hurricane or during episodes of civil unrest such as the one we're experiencing now.

I think the occurrence of looting and vandalism were likely inevitable given the circumstances and should obviously be condemned and prevented. That doesn't mean the message behind the largely peaceful protests during daylight hours should be lost. One can empathize with the small business owners who have lost everything and empathize with minorities who live in fear of the police. They are not exclusive.

 

[Birdstrike]

I don't condone the looting nor have I ever taken part.

Why not?

 

[Torsion]

Why not?

Looting is theft and destruction of property. I'm not sure what strawman argument you are attempting to set up. Do you or do you not believe that you can both condemn looting and empathize with the peaceful protestors?

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I actually agree with the curfews for large groups for this problem (whereas as a curfew was nonsensical for a virus). We know that the vast majority of crimes begin under the cover of dark. In problem cities, they can just put in an after dark curfew for downtown gatherings of large groups. During the day they can protest peacefully and protect the 1st Amendment at the same time.

I’m curious what you think about trump threatening to use federal troops in the states under the Insurrection Act of 1807.

It seems much closer to your apocalyptic dictatorship scenario than anything Hawaii did. He’s threatening to activate a military police force. I’m pretty sure bush or Obama would have gotten impeached for even saying that.

Agree that the curfews are reasonable, and that the violence is intolerable. I don’t think this is the correct response though.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

No one ever said 50,000 deaths from anything, were good. It's not good. Everyone agrees with that and that's not in debate.

The debate is about what we can do about it at this point. Other than treating COVID-19 patients one at a time, wearing PPE when appropriate and frequent hand washing as life goes on, I'm not sure what else we can do at this point. Continue lock-downs without a progression to reopening is a tiny fringe minority opinion at this point, that no one important is currently taking seriously. That does involve some risk which makes some people very anxious. I've made peace with it as something I have little if any control over.

There isn’t really anything in here that I disagreed with. The initial shut down made sense when we had no idea what we were dealing with. A gradual reopening is inevitable and appropriate now.

 

[Birdstrike]

Looting is theft and destruction of property.

Yes, that's what looting is. And it's not "inevitable" nor is it a necessary or helpful response to a "natural disaster, civil unrest or blackout." If was either, you would have done it. Give your fellow human being a little more credit than assuming they're passive victims destined and "inevitable" to loot and destroy property.

Do you or do you not believe that you can both condemn looting and empathize with the peaceful protestors?

One can both condemn looting and empathize with peaceful protestors. But one cannot be a peaceful protestor, while knowingly allowing rioters to use them as cover from which to launch violent attacks, of which many of the victims are minorities, by the way. This movement, if you can still call it that, was hijacked after about 24 hours, from the peaceful protesters. There is no such thing as a "peaceful protest" that knowingly allows rioters, looters and arsonists to "hide among them" knowingly, and for many days on end. Sadly, that opportunity has been lost.

You can try to wrestle it back from the rioters, but it's futile. Every day you do so, you approach 0% support. Much like if you made "peaceful suggestions" to improve your hospital would no longer be peaceful, if you continued to do so after being joined by people throwing Molotov cocktails into your hospital CEOs office.

 

[Torsion]

Yes, that's what looting is. And it's not "inevitable" nor is it a necessary or helpful response to a "natural disaster, civil unrest or blackout." If was either, you would have done it. Give your fellow human being a little more credit than assuming they're passive victims destined and "inevitable" to loot and destroy property.

Looting is neither helpful nor necessary, but it occurs frequently enough that it approaches inevitable. I will treat people as people. Not everyone is a boy scout. There are enough opportunists out there that any time you have an event of this size in which our security apparatus is stretched thin, the risk of looting is high. It's happening now. It's happened during the aftermath of major hurricanes. Hell, it happened in Philly when the Eagles won the Superbowl. Stating that looting is inevitable isn't me being misanthropic, its me being realistic. Whenever there is a public disturbance of magnitude, it would be prudent for any government to prepare for looting.

One can both condemn looting and empathize with peaceful protestors. But one cannot be a peaceful protestor, while knowingly allowing rioters to use them as cover from which to launch violent attacks, of which many of the victims are minorities, by the way. This movement, if you can still call it that, was hijacked after about 24 hours, from the peaceful protesters. There is no such thing as a "peaceful protest" that knowingly allows rioters, looters and arsonists to "hide among them" knowingly, and for many days on end. Sadly, that opportunity has been lost.

You can try to wrestle it back from the rioters, but it's futile. Every day you do so, you approach 0% support. Much like if you made "peaceful suggestions" to improve your hospital would no longer be peaceful, if you continued to do so after being joined by people throwing Molotov cocktails into your hospital CEOs office.

So what do you suggest the protestors do? Pack up and go home? Anyway, it has not been my ancedotal observation that the protestors are losing support. In contrast, it seems that solidarity with the "movement" seems to be growing and most people seem to be able to separate the peaceful protestors from the looters.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Can someone explain to me why hundreds/thousands of people closely packed together can protest but my kids still can't play on the playground?

 

[Birdstrike]

Whenever there is a public disturbance of magnitude, it would be prudent for any government to prepare for looting.

You're trying to convince me that "peaceful protests" equal public distrubance that inevitably lead to looting. Hmm...

They wouldn't be "peaceful" at that point, then, would they? Thank you for proving my point.

So what do you suggest the protestors do? Pack up and go home?

Let's just say gathered a bunch of physicians upset about conditions at work, to attend a medical staff meeting to push for change. All of a sudden, at the meeting a couple of them start screaming, yelling and throwing Molotov cocktails at the Board members. You bet your as$ I'm gonna pack up and go home. To do otherwise would either be stupidity or complicity. And that's what anyone attempting to hold "peaceful protests" at the same time and place as rioters, is at this point: Either stupid or complicit.

Regardless, we agree that George Floyd shouldn't have been murdered and that police brutality is wrong. That's what's important. You think it's smart to try to hold peaceful protests day after day knowing criminals will hide among you and riot, loot and commit arson. I think it's dumb. But I'm happy to agree on the first and disagree on the latter, without changing your mind. It's clear that I won't.

 

[bravotwozero]

Can someone explain to me why hundreds/thousands of people closely packed together can protest but my kids still can't play on the playground?

For what it's worth, I really don't think they should be protesting (even peacefully). Yes, the constitution allows it, and people may have legitimate grievances, but for God's sake man, everybody's forgotten that we're in the middle of a freakin pandemic! You're going to go out and pack the streets, then get Covid and pass it on to everyone else? How does that help anything? People are going to hate you, and the issue of police brutality will be on the back burner if the hospitals get slammed. But who likes to think about what they are doing.

 

[Rekt]

For what it's worth, I really don't think they should be protesting (even peacefully). Yes, the constitution allows it, and people may have legitimate grievances, but for God's sake man, everybody's forgotten that we're in the middle of a freakin pandemic! You're going to go out and pack the streets, then get Covid and pass it on to everyone else? How does that help anything? People are going to hate you, and the issue of police brutality will be on the back burner if the hospitals get slammed. But who likes to thing about what they are doing.

I actually doubt there is going to be any significant increase in covid cases because of the riots. Most days it seems like Covid has completely vanished all the sudden from my hospital and my area has been nearly fullly open for some time now. Is there any real nonanecdotal evidence showing an increase in meaningful numbers like percent of positives a day, etc?

 

[bravotwozero]

Well, the protests just started like a few days ago, and this thing can have a prolonged incubation period. We'll see what happens in two weeks.

 

[Birdstrike]

No @Torsion, your “peaceful protests” that continue to knowingly allow looters among them, are not going well:

“Retired police captain shot dead by looters“

...found dead on the sidewalk...following unrest that followed a ‘peaceful protest’...

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I actually doubt there is going to be any significant increase in covid cases because of the riots. Most days it seems like Covid has completely vanished all the sudden from my hospital and my area has been nearly fullly open for some time now. Is there any real nonanecdotal evidence showing an increase in meaningful numbers like percent of positives a day, etc?

Yes, but its hard to say if its a true increase or a result of increased testing. Here in SC over the weekend we had the highest number of positive results to date. The last week also had the highest number of total tests by a large margin. Given that hospitalizations in my area haven't gone up noticeably, I'm inclined to think its the increased testing.

I'll tell you what I'm afraid of. Let's say there is a spike as a result of the protests. My fear is that will lead to another temporary shelter-in-place/close all non-essential businesses order. I can just see it now:

"Look, we opened up business and then, completely unrelated to these huge protests, COVID cases spiked again. That's proof that we tried to reopen too soon!"

 

[Lawpy]

Everyone should agree that the lockdown was a horrible choice in hindsight as they essentially amplified these protests.. 40 million people out work, colleges shutdown with college kids having nothing to do, and lack of entertainment at home and outside to keep the masses amused? These liberals are digging this country's grave deeper and deeper smh.

lockdowns have been total garbage. i've been pushing for test-trace-isolate nonstop for months because lockdowns tank the economy for little gain. it also doesn't help when health experts initially absurdly argued against wearing masks in public during the early stages of the pandemic. and democrat states forcing nursing homes to take in covid patients.

 

[Birdstrike]

I think people were pretty much done with lockdowns before the riots came along. Now that they’ve seen the same people that spread the COVID panic-porn cast it aside like used fish wrap once a more self-serving narrative came along, it would make it next to impossible to reverse course and resume the panic porn and expect the same result.

Like I said at the very beginning of this, the media routinely lies and exaggerates to maximize profits. If you expected it then, you’re not surprised now.

 

[Lawpy]

I think people were pretty much done with lockdowns before the riots came along. Now that they’ve seen the same people that spread the COVID panic cast it aside like used fish wrap for a more self-serving narrative, would make it next to impossible if they tried to reverse course and resume the panic porn.

i'm just amazed people threw social distancing out the window in the middle of the pandemic. only a matter of time until second covid wave and even more lockdowns hit, leading to further economic collapse and frustration. then something else reignites more protests that'd lead to a third covid wave. and so on.

 

[Birdstrike]

i'm just amazed people threw social distancing out the window in the middle of the pandemic. only a matter of time until second covid wave and even more lockdowns hit, leading to further economic collapse and frustration. then something else reignites more protests that'd lead to a third covid wave. and so on.

Something I also said at the beginning of this: Panic leads to apathy. It’s taken longer than I thought it would, but the pattern has borne out.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Something I also said at the beginning of this: Panic leads to apathy. It’s taken longer than I thought it would, but the pattern has borne out.

We are already in apathy. Just look at the news. People are done, done, done with the lockdowns. I simply can't see a majority of states, especially the red ones reinstating the lockdowns. People are at pool parties, bars and restaurants not social distancing. I fully support the apathy and hope it continues!

The sooner we all get back to work/normal, the less incentive there will be riot and cause social unrest.

 

[Birdstrike]

We are already in apathy. Just look at the news. People are done, done, done with the lockdowns. I simply can't see a majority of states, especially the red ones reinstating the lockdowns. People are at pool parties, bars and restaurants not social distancing. I fully support the apathy and hope it continues!

I agree. My life is back to normal and it feels great. When I encounter a rare business still in "voluntary lockdown mode" I almost have to snap out of it and remember it was ever a thing.

 

[allantois]

Assuming that people are rioting because they lost their jobs is quite an assumption

 

[Birdstrike]

Assuming that people rioting lost their jobs is quite an assumption

The people who’s places of work were burned down certainly did. So did David Dorn. Does his “life matter”?

 

[AMEHigh]

What action steps have you all taken in regards to racism and police brutality both at home and at work?
Have your work places/leaders made any statements? Any plans for improvements?
Are you all talking to residents and students? Improvements in curriculum and education?
What supports are in place for Black students and residents?

 

[GeneralVeers]

What action steps have you all taken in regards to racism and police brutality both at home and at work?
Have your work places/leaders made any statements? Any plans for improvements?
Are you all talking to residents and students? Improvements in curriculum and education?
What supports are in place for Black students and residents?

None of the above.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I’ve taken the step of continuing to treat all people as valuable regardless of color or creed.

So much THIS. Racial grievance theory and White Guilt have no place in my work place, or any real educational institution. If we give over to forces of evil which AMEHigh supports, then we have lost our civilization.

 

[AMEHigh]

I’ve taken the step of continuing to treat all people as valuable regardless of color or creed.

That's great.
Have you taken time to reflect on these values and how they were reflected during your med school, residency and being an attending?
Have you ever witnessed any instances of bias or racism? What was your response during those times?
Do you believe people when they discuss being treated poorly for example by being called the N word by a patient or being told by a classmate they must've only gotten in to school because of their race?
If you have never witnessed any instances of bias or racism so far have you thought of how you might respond or teach others how to have anti-racist values?

Hopefully others who may read and not respond will reflect on some of these issues and discussions and not automatically dismiss them.

 

[AMEHigh]

It sounds like you lifted all of that out of the discussion section of an eighth grade textbook, but then maybe your aim was to be condescending. See, here's the thing. When I come to work, my goal is to do the best job I can for ALL of my patients, residents, and students. I don't tolerate people being unkind to anyone else whether it's about their race, religion, speech impediment, physical disability, or anything else.

But see, I also think it's actually quite racist to imply that my minority residents and students need me to be their great white hope. "Oh what would we do without the great white Mr. Hat to coddle us and protect us and to make sure our voice is heard?" And that seems to be the attitude that you, I hope accidentally, portray. I know all too many white people who carry the extremely racist attitude that those with a different hue of skin are dependent upon them to guide them and protect them and heal them. And see, I just don't think that way. I think that I, as a human being, should treat other human beings with kindness, and I think that I should stand up for any human being who is being treated unfairly for any reason. But I also think that my racial minority students, residents, and colleagues are strong and capable and amazing people who can think for and take care of themselves, and don't need me to treat them differently than I would treat anyone else. And in fact, my hope would be to leave each shift not having even thought about the skin color of the people I worked with because they are just people, same as me.

I’m sorry that the color of people’s skin seems to be such an obsession for you, and I hope you can get past that someday. And as someone very wise once taught us, to be able to judge people by the content of their character and not by the color of their skin.

It certainly not an obsession. Being Black is who I am.
The trauma of seeing police brutality and killings disproportionately affect us is real.
The trauma of being harassed by the police while walking home is real.
The trauma of your Black boyfriend not being treated well be a physician in the ED until you speak up and have to tell them you're also a physician is real.
The theory of people should be "color-blind" is harmful. I recommend people read up on why that ideology should not be used.
I am opening up a dialogue and did not aim to be condescending.

I'm sure as a physician who has gone through the education process you understand the hierarchical nature of training. As a student feeling scrutinized every day while trying to learning and being "pimped." Trying to be perfect so that you get honors on your rotation and get the residency interviews of your dreams, etc.

So yes when a patient has called me the N word it would've been nice to know I had the support of the white and asian attendings, instead of having to "fend" for myself while being fearful that I'll respond incorrectly and it'll affect my medical training. These are challenges that we face that are specific to medical education and that is just one example. So no it's not being racist of me to hope for my white colleagues to understand the unique challenges that Black students and residents in particular go through during training. White attendings have said racists things about patients in my presence, and again as a student it was very difficult to navigate those situations, so knowing I had the support of other white and asian students and residents would've gone a long way. They were typically very very silent.

So it's great if your institution is doing these things well and have well-intentioned ways to be on the lookout for such issues, but from personal experience as a Black person and the experience of my Black friends and colleagues medical institutions from med school to residency and hospitals most of them aren't doing such a great job. So if you and your institution are doing things well then I challenge you to share best practices with your colleagues at other institutions in regards to an anti-racism lens. This includes sharing why being "color-blind" is harmful for example.

I did not copy those questions from a text book, those are just my thoughts and some of the things my colleagues and I have discussed as we've moved through our careers and toward more leadership positions. With time often comes maturity and leadership. How I respond to a patient calling me the N word now is different than how I responded while I was a student or how I respond to a colleague making a racist comment about a patient, but the facts don't change that it still happens (and other forms of discrimination and bias). I continue to hope that white colleagues are evaluating how they respond to mitigate racism and bias and how the respond when it happens personally and within their institutions.

I posed those questions to have a dialogue with the hopes of people thinking, reflecting and acting without getting defensive.
I'm happy to share resources and if anyone wants to PM I'm more than open to that as well because I think this is an important and vital discussion to have with physician colleagues.

 

[turkeyjerky]

That's great.
Have you taken time to reflect on these values and how they were reflected during your med school, residency and being an attending?
Have you ever witnessed any instances of bias or racism? What was your response during those times?
Do you believe people when they discuss being treated poorly for example by being called the N word by a patient or being told by a classmate they must've only gotten in to school because of their race?
If you have never witnessed any instances of bias or racism so far have you thought of how you might respond or teach others how to have anti-racist values?

Hopefully others who may read and not respond will reflect on some of these issues and discussions and not automatically dismiss them.

Posts like this are akin to medical schools banning free lunch for students in order to combat pharma influence.

 

[Birdstrike]

COVID-19 Reopening Update

-Lock-downs are ending.
-Coronavirus deaths are steadily trending down.
-Job losses from May lock-downs were 70% less than projected (Marketwatch)
-Stock market is up 30% in the last 6 weeks.

The future is looking good.

 

[AMEHigh]

Posts like this are akin to medical schools banning free lunch for students in order to combat pharma influence.

I'm not quite understanding what you mean. Could you explain further?

 

[turkeyjerky]

I'm not quite understanding what you mean. Could you explain further?

A meaningless, feel-good action that does nothing to actually improve the situation at hand and, moreover, is ultimately detrimental.

 

[AMEHigh]

A meaningless, feel-good action that does nothing to actually improve the situation at hand and, moreover, is ultimately detrimental.

Ahh ok got it.
I'd definitely love to hear actions you're taking within your institution.
I just posed those questions as thoughts/reflections/discussion (through my work I've realized some people have literally never thought about anti-racism work), but if people have specific actions for implementation definitely share! Would love to know what this looks like for your personally and at your instituation to not be "feel-good" or obviously detrimental.

I certainly am not an expert, just speaking of my own experiences as a Black person and physician and some of the things my colleagues and I have discussed (online and in-person), so would love to hear other people's steps to discuss this within their institutions and action steps.

 

[GeneralVeers]

A meaningless, feel-good action that does nothing to actually improve the situation at hand and, moreover, is ultimately detrimental.

It's called virtue-signalling, which is what many of my over-privileged, left-wing friends have been posting on IG/FB/Twitter for the past week.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Ahh ok got it.
I'd definitely love to hear actions you're taking within your institution.
I just posed those questions as thoughts/reflections/discussion (through my work I've realized some people have literally never thought about anti-racism work), but if people have specific actions for implementation definitely share! Would love to know what this looks like for your personally and at your instituation to not be "feel-good" or obviously detrimental.

I certainly am not an expert, just speaking of my own experiences as a Black person and physician and some of the things my colleagues and I have discussed (online and in-person), so would love to hear other people's steps to discuss this within their institutions and action steps.

I highly doubt that any actions I can take personally within my 'institution' are going to have a meaningful impact on the odds of another state-sanctioned, police-committed murder of a (largely) innocent person.

We don't need a drum circle of us talking about our feelings or apologizing for micro-aggressions. We need a full-scale rebuilding of our society.

It's called virtue-signalling, which is what many of my over-privileged, left-wing friends have been posting on IG/FB/Twitter for the past week.

Seriously, I'm so f'ing over it. Although I particularly hate the new trope about 'supporting the protests but property damage is NOT okay'. It's this years version of "i support the troops but not the war". wtf does that even mean.

 

[AMEHigh]

I highly doubt that any actions I can take personally within my 'institution' are going to have a meaningful impact on the odds of another state-sanctioned, police-committed murder of a (largely) innocent person.

We don't need a drum circle of us talking about our feelings or apologizing for micro-aggressions. We need a full-scale rebuilding of our society.



Seriously, I'm so f'ing over it. Although I particularly hate the new trope about 'supporting the protests but property damage is NOT okay'. It's this years version of "i support the troops but not the war". wtf does that even mean.

Ok. I understand what you're saying in not seeing the link between anything that happens at your institution and how it affects the police. I was trying to stick to the issues specific to medical education because obviously this is a large topic. However, I disagree that things that happen at institutions don't affect the larger society. There is certainly racism in medicine and 1 person can begin the dialogue that leads to change and action.

I don't have the answers, but I think specifically in regards to emergency medicine there could certainly be discusses on how interactions occur with the police departments and patients, since police are seen in the emergency department.

One specific action that I've helped with at my institution and within states at large is ending the policy of shackling women while in labor and giving birth. So obviously that action would not have prevented the killing of George Floyd (and many, many others), but it is an issue that medical institutions and physicians can take on that overlap how police treat patients which are often Black patients in disporportionate numbers. It has certainly made a difference to patients that one person decided to take this issue on within a hospital and it has turned in to overturning policy at the local and state level. That is just one example.

 

[Mushdoc]

I highly doubt that any actions I can take personally within my 'institution' are going to have a meaningful impact on the odds of another state-sanctioned, police-committed murder of a (largely) innocent person.

We don't need a drum circle of us talking about our feelings or apologizing for micro-aggressions. We need a full-scale rebuilding of our society.



Seriously, I'm so f'ing over it. Although I particularly hate the new trope about 'supporting the protests but property damage is NOT okay'. It's this years version of "i support the troops but not the war". wtf does that even mean.

It means I support peaceful, lawful protests (and maybe even non-violent "unlawful" passive resistance i.e. laying down in front of traffic, obstructing traffic etc) but I don't support violence, looting, fighting back against the police, etc. There's a pretty big difference - i.e the difference between MLK and Malcom-X for example. Or Otpor vs black hand

Supporting the troops but not the war is not equivalent, but basically meant "I don't hold it against the actual soldiers (most of whom are trying to improve their situation) that the government sent them on a stupid war." In contrast to calling them baby killers or whatever.

I do agree that a lot of the instagram/facebook stuff is just virtue signalling but ideally it still has an effect. When rich people get together for a gala and donate the proceeds its virtue signalling but hey it gets the donations. Thats why the charitable organizations participte, its gets them money. It also changes norms. Its amazing the amount of people (coworkers and patients) that will just assume that they can indulge in casual racism with me just because I am white. But at least they don't use the N word which used to be normal, because there was enough public shaming about it.

 

[Mushdoc]

The I support the troops thing came about in the first place because the right tried to smear the left by saying that disagreement with the Iraq war and the politicians taking us into it was akin to hating soldiers. It was a reaction to a BS argument

 

[WilcoWorld]

I also once thought that I "didn't see race". I found racism intellectually abhorrent - as I'm confident almost everyone on this thread does. One day, at the request of one of my residency attendings (who was doing a study) I took an implicit bias test and was surprised to find that I too had implicit biases.

So, I'd like to suggest a thought experiment:

Imagine 2 people living in the same world with very similar life experiences. One day one of them visits an exhibit on optical illusions and realizes that what he sees is not always an accurate representation of reality. The other spends the day seeing a movie.

The next day both of them are talking to someone who tells them that they have often been tricked by illusions, and that they could be fooled again. The first replies "well, I was tricked yesterday by optical illusions in a museum, I guess it's possible it could happen here too." The second replies "I've never been tricked in my life, that's impossible!"

Who is more likely to recognize when they're being tricked in the future?

 

[Rekt]

Ok. I understand what you're saying in not seeing the link between anything that happens at your institution and how it affects the police. I was trying to stick to the issues specific to medical education because obviously this is a large topic. However, I disagree that things that happen at institutions don't affect the larger society. There is certainly racism in medicine and 1 person can begin the dialogue that leads to change and action.

I don't have the answers, but I think specifically in regards to emergency medicine there could certainly be discusses on how interactions occur with the police departments and patients, since police are seen in the emergency department.

One specific action that I've helped with at my institution and within states at large is ending the policy of shackling women while in labor and giving birth. So obviously that action would not have prevented the killing of George Floyd (and many, many others), but it is an issue that medical institutions and physicians can take on that overlap how police treat patients which are often Black patients in disporportionate numbers. It has certainly made a difference to patients that one person decided to take this issue on within a hospital and it has turned in to overturning policy at the local and state level. That is just one example.

Physicians, unless they hold an actual political office, should have no say in non-medical policy reform.

 

[AMEHigh]

Physicians, unless they hold an actual political office, should have no say in non-medical policy reform.

Ok that's great you think that. And not everyone's involvement looks the same.
I live in this world outside of medicine much of the time, so I certainly choose to talk to my local politicians and get involved with organizations outside of medicine all the time. When I walk down the street no one knows I'm a doctor. When I see a non-health problem in my community I don't ignore it because I'm a doctor. That doesn't mean everyone should or has interest, but for others working with organizations around pollution for example (which does tie back to health outcomes) to enact policy change is not wrong even if it is not their field of their job.

 

[WilcoWorld]

Physicians, unless they hold an actual political office, should have no say in non-medical policy reform.

I disagree, and I think non-physicians should have a say in medical policy reform.

 

[Birdstrike]

There are threads on partisan politics/race in the sociopolitical forums. One of the moderators (@Dr.McNinja) already threatened to lock/move the thread due to it being hijacked. How about we circle the thread back to the original topic of "How long the COVID lockdown should last?" Otherwise, rename it "Race and Politics" and move to a sociopolitical thread.

Does anyone second this motion?

 

[GeneralVeers]

There are threads on partisan politics/race in the sociopolitical forums. One of the moderators (@Dr.McNinja) already threatened to lock/move the thread due to it being hijacked. How about we circle the thread back to the original topic of "How long the COVID lockdown should last?" Otherwise, rename it "Race and Politics" and move to a sociopolitical thread.

Does anyone second this motion?

How long should the COVID lockdown last? The Answer is geographic

NYC - 5 days they are relaxing some of the measure.....in doubt with the government-sponsored riots
LA - Until August
Boston - Indefinitely
TN, GA, NV, AZ, TX, SC, FL, AR, SD, IA, KS, TN, UT and AK are all completely open now.

 

[RustedFox]

How long should the COVID lockdown last? The Answer is geographic

NYC - 5 days they are relaxing some of the measure.....in doubt with the government-sponsored riots
LA - Until August
Boston - Indefinitely
TN, GA, NV, AZ, TX, SC, FL, AR, SD, IA, KS, TN, UT and AK are all completely open now.

FL not completely open.
Many of my favorite restaurants are either still closed or doing the silly "this table is closed for social distancing" nonsense.
I can't go to the barcade, or rent a mountain bike to shred the park (built into an old phosphate mine; who knew?)

 

[GeneralVeers]

FL not completely open.
Many of my favorite restaurants are either still closed or doing the silly "this table is closed for social distancing" nonsense.
I can't go to the barcade, or rent a mountain bike to shred the park (built into an old phosphate mine; who knew?)

Oh yeah all the states are doing that crap. Life is essentially back to normal now, except for the "socially distanced tables" and the stupid spots on the floor to stand in supermarkets and businesses. I have a feeling we are stuck with these idiotic annoyances for some time.

On the plus side, attending a Vegas Casino opening tonight at 1201 AM so that will be a sign of a return to normalcy.

 

[Rekt]

Oh yeah all the states are doing that crap. Life is essentially back to normal now, except for the "socially distanced tables" and the stupid spots on the floor to stand in supermarkets and businesses. I have a feeling we are stuck with these idiotic annoyances for some time.

On the plus side, attending a Vegas Casino opening tonight at 1201 AM so that will be a sign of a return to normalcy.

Yeah my state is doing the same. Unfortunately people don't realize places don't just have extra seating for fun. They're built to operate on max capacity/schedules/etc. Even being half open/have large "social distancing" guidelines/schedule changes, many places will probably still end up closing.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Yeah my state is doing the same. Unfortunately people don't realize places don't just have extra seating for fun. They're built to operate on max capacity/schedules/etc. Even being half open/have large "social distancing" guidelines/schedule changes, many places will probably still end up closing.

Hopefully the politicians understand this and can quickly ramp down the social distancing guidelines. Most bars/restaurants require maximum capacity seating on Friday and Saturday night just to stay afloat.

 

[Birdstrike]

Just days ago, health and media "experts" stoked panic, telling us millions would die unless we stayed home in perpetual lockdown. Suddenly and without medical or epidemiological explanation, they’ve cast their own lockdowns aside for mass gatherings during a pandemic, to make a political statement.

Are they knowingly allowing thousands to die from Coronavirus due to these public, political gatherings?

If they know that's not the case, have the medical and media communities knowingly promoted the most economically destructive con job in world history?

Suddenly, Public Health Officials Say Social Justice Matters More Than Social Distance

For months, health experts told Americans to stay home. Now, many are encouraging the public to join mass protests.

www.politico.com