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How much debt is too much?
Started by Bereno
Anything over 250k makes me want to throw up regardless of how standard it is.
I'm judging this on very little but I think I'd set my limit at 325k. I mean the tuitions at the most expensive schools, (UPenn, NYU, BU, UoP, Columbia, out-of-state anywhere, etc.) seem to max out at around 225k which leaves another 100k for living expenses for all 4 years. To me that seems like a reasonable amount. I'm sure most of us can live on 25k a year so long as we don't splurge on anything. For those of us fortunate enough to have giving parents, this should make staying within the 25k that much easier.
Any amount of debt is too much debt. 😎
Whether or not having a level of debt beyond 0.00 USD has any larger implications with regards to an individual's future success, financial stability, or personal happiness is another discussion. And one that is ultimately case by case and riddled with far too many mitigating factors to generalize upon.
I'm not entirely sure what you expect to glean from that poll as it seems all of those fiscal delineations are arbitrary in nature. For example: 200k might be an acceptable value, but 250k is not? Maybe. Maybe not. It would just depend.
If you are limiting this discusion to the average dental student who is a financial independent, single, without children, entering with no residual debt, and faced with financing the entirety of the cost of education - then I think the underlying advise would be to choose whichever school you can gain acceptance at that has the cheapest cost of education.
Alas, the dental student body is highly diverse. And there will always be students with great support - i.e. parents willing to pay any dental tuition - in which case, maybe there is no ceiling to education cost. And there are those that may takeover a parent's private practice upon graduation and earn top dollar from day one. There are certainly millions of other possibilities that could affect the impact of education cost.
Again, it's all a matter of personal scenarios - but like anything else, if the same product is being offered everywhere (DDS/DMD), why pay more for something if you have other, cheaper options?
Whether or not having a level of debt beyond 0.00 USD has any larger implications with regards to an individual's future success, financial stability, or personal happiness is another discussion. And one that is ultimately case by case and riddled with far too many mitigating factors to generalize upon.
I'm not entirely sure what you expect to glean from that poll as it seems all of those fiscal delineations are arbitrary in nature. For example: 200k might be an acceptable value, but 250k is not? Maybe. Maybe not. It would just depend.
If you are limiting this discusion to the average dental student who is a financial independent, single, without children, entering with no residual debt, and faced with financing the entirety of the cost of education - then I think the underlying advise would be to choose whichever school you can gain acceptance at that has the cheapest cost of education.
Alas, the dental student body is highly diverse. And there will always be students with great support - i.e. parents willing to pay any dental tuition - in which case, maybe there is no ceiling to education cost. And there are those that may takeover a parent's private practice upon graduation and earn top dollar from day one. There are certainly millions of other possibilities that could affect the impact of education cost.
Again, it's all a matter of personal scenarios - but like anything else, if the same product is being offered everywhere (DDS/DMD), why pay more for something if you have other, cheaper options?
cuz life is not always measured by money. at least in my book its not
You are absolutely correct. And you are serving to highlight my larger point which is that this entire conversation is personal and unique to the individual at hand. Everyone has a different philosophy and set of priorities. If your primary goal is not to keep costs low, you will have a different viewpoint.
But this is a discusion about cost of education - and the scope of that topic is inherently tied to money and a measurement of costs.
But this is a discusion about cost of education - and the scope of that topic is inherently tied to money and a measurement of costs.
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This poll is purely exploratory. I am curious where other people's marginal benefit runs out 👍
I
iralex801
I feel like in order to progress in American Society to reach the top, you initially have to accumulate debt unless you have a wealthy background. So for me there is no ceiling for dental school or the practice I'm going to buy. For example, if the only school I got into was USC, I'm going to attend without a second thought. What I will try to do to keep my debt down is the house, cars, etc I buy. However, there is no ceiling for me in order to advance my career.
Debt is the greatest thing about the US. The ability to get loans allows the low to middle class to have a chance to rise to the top. Most other countries, the rich keeps their money and the poor stay poor.
Debt is the greatest thing about the US. The ability to get loans allows the low to middle class to have a chance to rise to the top. Most other countries, the rich keeps their money and the poor stay poor.
Meh, you could also argue that's why we're in the mess that we're in right now.
I
iralex801
It is precisely the reason why we are in the this mess lol. The problem gets compounded when dental students decide to use their school loans to buy beer and bmws. That being said, I rather have it this way. Some people would not have the privilege of attaining an education without loans.
I agree with this post. There are certainly lots of intangibles. If a person with the right connections/associateship slides right into a bustling practice, they could easily pay off debt.
I am personally praying for the military scholarship!
I really hope you are kidding with this post.
The ability to get BUSINESS loans is a great thing. Sometimes. Student loans in America are awful. Not subsidized anymore, not a great interest rate, and they follow you to the grave no matter how many times you declare bankruptcy. Debt however is never a good thing. In fact I think 90% of Americans would put it in the top 5 problems facing the country.
One thing that was striking to me was that the medical school at LECOM is about 30k/yr while the dental school is about 50k/yr. 120 seems so much more palatable than 200k !
I think my (preferred) max would be 200k. Though, if it came down to going to UoP @ 300k or not going at all I would take the opportunity and run with it. Which is most likely why these schools can charge what ever they want.
I see what IREX is saying about dentistry at a high cost. For many of us dentistry can be a transitional career for our families. The income potential seems worth the risk if you believe in your abilities yet do not have the kind of opportunties that other well connected people may have and want a shot at a upper-middle-class life.
I think my (preferred) max would be 200k. Though, if it came down to going to UoP @ 300k or not going at all I would take the opportunity and run with it. Which is most likely why these schools can charge what ever they want.
I see what IREX is saying about dentistry at a high cost. For many of us dentistry can be a transitional career for our families. The income potential seems worth the risk if you believe in your abilities yet do not have the kind of opportunties that other well connected people may have and want a shot at a upper-middle-class life.
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Great rebuttal. 👍
He makes a good point though. Without the ability to borrow money, chances of getting a professional education would be limited to those who can afford it. Rich stays rich. Poor stays poor.
Debt is a wonderful buffer for the functioning of the proverbial economic engine. You are correct about the rich staying rich, and the poor staying poor if you don't have debt, so I believe debt is not inherently bad. The misuse of it is. Its like saying alcohol is evil, when in fact it it not - the misuse of it is.
One thing that I have always thought was interesting was the use of the Gini coefficient and its correlations to how strong an economy is. Quite interesting actually. I don't know how many of you have ever had to do any rigorous market analysis for emerging markets... but if you ever have, you have probably used the Gini index a few times. It measures the discrepancy or distribution of wealth in a country. You guys should read up on it.
Dude, I'm sure you're the only one in here who has done any rigorous market analysis for emerging markets lol.
I
iralex801
No, I am not kidding, but let me elaborate on what I mean. Debt is not a good thing, but it is necessary if your not from a wealthy background. Everything I say below is assuming you don't have rich parents.
Bereno's post is basically what I'm trying to say. The concept of a loan is a great idea. Think about it. Under our current system with tuition rates high, Would you be able to attend D-school or college without a loan? Where would you find money to start your own business without a loan? Without loans, these privileges would be only available to the rich.
Like Bereno said, the misuse of loans is the reason why it s such a big problem right now. You guys don't know anyone who took out extra money so they could buy a nicer car or party more? Could the loan system be revised and improved (change interest rates, bankruptcy, etc)? Yes, I believe so. I'm just saying loans should never be abolished. Loans make the American Dream possible.
Good post with more insight than most. Its true that loans give the ability to pursue a better life for yourself and your family. Just use them wisely (thinking of recent thread about student possibly buying new car with school loans😱)!
Thanks for elaborating, and I definitely agree now that you did. I know that if it hadn't been for loans I would be stuck working in a factory/service industry job like my parents.
we can't forget about the interest that our debt is going to be collecting while we are in dental school and afterwards. Good chance that you are going to throw in an additional $100k on top of your original $250k - $300k debt...
It is so much money, but just remember that we will all be able to pay it off. It all depends on how we manage our money during and after dental school.
It is so much money, but just remember that we will all be able to pay it off. It all depends on how we manage our money during and after dental school.
That's the average debt for DS?
the debt isn't too scary (even if we are talking 400k+)...
Its the interest rate that tears you up. When your talking 6.8 - 7.9%, thats approx 30k a year of interest 😱😱😱😱
That means you have to pay ALOT more than 30k a year to make a dent on that 400k investment... something many of us will struggle with especially since first few years out of DS, we'd be lucky to gross 100-150k
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Are there any options other than federal loans and wealthy relatives that might get a better interest rate?
There are some large-scale dental practice network companies that offer incentives to new graduates.
Aspen Dental comes to mind immediately.
They offer loan repayment up to $150,000 over the course of 5 years without contractual obligations. And this repayment is in addition to regular pay.
http://www.aspendentaljobs.com/dentists-new-grads.htm?_ab_sessid=4334be84c934fc694d0abf1f8c46e8e2
Now, this wouldn't account for the debt accrued at a school like USC or NYU - but it is something to consider...
Aspen Dental comes to mind immediately.
They offer loan repayment up to $150,000 over the course of 5 years without contractual obligations. And this repayment is in addition to regular pay.
http://www.aspendentaljobs.com/dentists-new-grads.htm?_ab_sessid=4334be84c934fc694d0abf1f8c46e8e2
Now, this wouldn't account for the debt accrued at a school like USC or NYU - but it is something to consider...
300 or more = super scary. Its not about the loans, its about the jobs. If we can all find jobs that are paying at least 100K that would make it easier, but there are no guarantees. It would be awesome if all d schools were comparatively priced. It sucks that we have to have such fluctations.
Sorry, I should have clarified. No, this is not the average for dental school, but the average of the poll results at that time. I am not sure what the dental school average is. I wonder how we could find that out.
To have $250K in loans is crazy...Thats a house mortgage. Plus after interest...
What one thinks is "too much" varies on what part of the country you're coming from.
250K before interest for an education that has the potential for six figures is hardly anything if you're coming from california or areas where housing is expensive.
But if you're from where 250K will net you a large home on a nice size lot. 300k+ and you could soon be looking at multiple homes it'll obviously look like an mountain that is too high to climb.
250K before interest for an education that has the potential for six figures is hardly anything if you're coming from california or areas where housing is expensive.
But if you're from where 250K will net you a large home on a nice size lot. 300k+ and you could soon be looking at multiple homes it'll obviously look like an mountain that is too high to climb.
Last Friday a dental consultant rep came in and told us how their company can help us set up a successful practice. To make a long story short, during the q & a part I asked, "So what would you say is the maximum amount of debt that you can work with when setting up a practice for a client?" Her response was 300k. 350k if you have really good solid credit. 600k if you have rich parents to co-sign the loan. When I told her the school's tuition her eyes got really big and she said, "Well you'll definately have to whittle that down to the 300k range." So there you have it. If you get in deeper than 300k plan on paying that down as an associate which might take quite a while.
This is the key! Thanks for posting this up.
As an associate, your income is pretty much limited. Sky becomes your limit when you open your own practice based on your interpersonal, clinical and business skills.
But what if you can't borrow money to open/buy a practice?? you are stuck at association jobs till u lower than a huge chunk of loan.
I think that I will re-rank my schools.
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You guys want a real financial breakdown: Here it is! Someone posted this a while back and I found it! Coming form a business background I can tell you this is pretty darn accurate!
Here is the link: http://www.dentaldaddiary.com/2011/11/im-gonna-be-rich-or-not-dental-school.html
P.S. Don't forget: Interest gets paid first over principal! this way the banks get more money out of you!
Here is the link: http://www.dentaldaddiary.com/2011/11/im-gonna-be-rich-or-not-dental-school.html
P.S. Don't forget: Interest gets paid first over principal! this way the banks get more money out of you!
i voted 300k, assuming a straight payback with no grants or scholarships to speak of.
i'm in my low 30s and the opportunity cost to switch careers and pursue dentistry is well over a million dollars. at this (late?) point in my life, i am highly sensitive to how much all of this will cost and i have set personal tiers of COA that would dictate what i would do
less than 200k - full steam ahead
between 200k and 250k - a little iffy. would depend on cost of living and other factors
250k and up - military scholarship or no dentistry
i was an air force brat so i have no problem serving for a short stint just for the payback. if that were a no go i would be hard pressed to be under a $300k plus interest thumb for pretty much the rest of my working life.
i'm in my low 30s and the opportunity cost to switch careers and pursue dentistry is well over a million dollars. at this (late?) point in my life, i am highly sensitive to how much all of this will cost and i have set personal tiers of COA that would dictate what i would do
less than 200k - full steam ahead
between 200k and 250k - a little iffy. would depend on cost of living and other factors
250k and up - military scholarship or no dentistry
i was an air force brat so i have no problem serving for a short stint just for the payback. if that were a no go i would be hard pressed to be under a $300k plus interest thumb for pretty much the rest of my working life.
this guy basically copied from the post I put up in dental forum a month ago. The data has a lot of flaws actually. I revised the one in dental town but I was too lazy to update one in SDN.
it is missing health/malpractice/diability insurance and cost of CE. 120k is a kinda high salary for 1 yr out dentists according to dental town.
Man, this poll needs lower choices, even 200k is too much (I voted 250k, simply because that was around my cap for a (VA) home loan when I was considering buying a condo in Portland last year)! If I had to take out any of these I'd be working at a prison in Texas or some remote clinic in Alaska for 7 years to have it paid off for me by the feds, yuck.
High praise to you guys who can stomach that and go through paying it off without assistance; I sure hope you get some scholarships in the very least.
High praise to you guys who can stomach that and go through paying it off without assistance; I sure hope you get some scholarships in the very least.
120k is high??? My ex got out of pharmacy school making more than that at CVS. Are new grads really making so little? It would be difficult to manage payments on those loans (above the minimum) along with cost of living, practice related costs, car payments, possible mortgage, savings, retirement savings, etc.
I saw something linked earlier that said if you're making $120k and have $35000 in debt you are left with $55,000 after taxes and debt payments. If that's accurate, I don't know what people are so upset about. Most people live on about that much before taxes. And keep in mind that's the first year, you're going to make more every year as you get better. Plus, lets not ignore the fact that there will be jobs for us. I know a lot of recent graduates that are working at jobs you could get with a high school diploma.
i definitely agree. that's what i said in DT, and one of the dentist argue that 55k is a good salary for a college grad, but if a dentist, who goes through 8 yrs of school, has potential malpractice lawsuits, and has that much loan, is not worth 55k. ... idk i'm just playing a devil's advocate.
i strongly recommend to read all the replies in DT. It opened up my perspective on dentistry in a different way
i strongly recommend to read all the replies in DT. It opened up my perspective on dentistry in a different way
You guys are making the mistake and assuming the 100-120k out of dental school is constant throughout your career.
Its not... There is a good reason why GP national averages are anywhere between 160-220k, its because those are career long averages.
You can hit nice incomes (200k+) with dentistry (yes even without specializing), but IMO, you need some years of experience under your belt before venturing off into private practice.
Now if you tell me you don't ever wanna do private practice (you hate managing), and your also going to be in more than 250k debt (including undergrad), I will be the first to tell you to look into another profession. Associates ,on average, don't make alot (almost irrelevant how "bad" the economy is).
Again, IMO, private practice ownership is the way to go if $$$ is that important to you.
Its not... There is a good reason why GP national averages are anywhere between 160-220k, its because those are career long averages.
You can hit nice incomes (200k+) with dentistry (yes even without specializing), but IMO, you need some years of experience under your belt before venturing off into private practice.
Now if you tell me you don't ever wanna do private practice (you hate managing), and your also going to be in more than 250k debt (including undergrad), I will be the first to tell you to look into another profession. Associates ,on average, don't make alot (almost irrelevant how "bad" the economy is).
Again, IMO, private practice ownership is the way to go if $$$ is that important to you.
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