How much does PA school miss out on medical school

[YoungDoc25]

However you want to twist the definition, we are doing both. Different states may define it differently, however, many of the tasks that they perform that are traditionally in the realm of medicine are now within the realm of advance practice nursing.

Medscape: Medscape Access

Are you an electrician too if you change a light bulb? Maybe you can add that to your white coat too.

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[FNP_Blix]

Could it possibly confuse a patient into thinking you know more than you do? Might they think you are a physician? If you can say 100% no, then there is no problem. But your introduction should be on a level of understanding for the lowest of IQ patients. There is no need for the “Dr. Ihaveaninferioritycomplex” introduction. It adds nothing to the care of your patient but possible confusion. I respect your doctorate outside of the hospital, but clinically it is completely irrelevant that you took an extra 20 hours of nursing theory.

You wouldn't be confusing anyone if you state the phrase I quoted above. It respects the credentials the clinician earned all while explicitly stating that he/she is the nurse practitioner providing the care.

 

[YoungDoc25]

You wouldn't be confusing anyone if you state the phrase I quoted above. It respects the credentials the clinician earned all while explicitly stating that he/she is the nurse practitioner providing the care.

If you think that is clear, then I understand why none of this makes sense to you. I know for a fact >50% of the patients I’ve seen would wonder if you were a nurse or a physician because you used the word “doctor”. Hence the reason the PhD’s at my medical school go out of their way to not confuse patients with their title. But then again, none of this is about the patient. It’s about a male nurse needing his ego stroked.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Are you an electrician too if you change a light bulb? Maybe you can add that to your white coat too.

Very funny but that's just not the same thing. Nurse practitioners are prepared to provide primary care and have been doing so safely for over 5 decades now.

 

[FNP_Blix]

If you think that is clear, then I understand why none of this makes sense to you. I know for a fact >50% of the patients I’ve seen would wonder if you were a nurse or a physician because you used the word “doctor”. Hence the reason the PhD’s at my medical school go out of their way to not confuse patients with their title. But then again, none of this is about the patient. It’s about a male nurse needing his ego stroked.

You're making assumptions. Nursing is a female dominant field. I don't think the gender of the nurse is the guiding light for this argument.

 

[thinkchangeflow]

Im pretty heavily focused on doing some sort of primary care as it is at a DO school.
For me when I observe other specialties I see
1) Too Difficult to get/ do : Neurosurgery, Orthopedics, Dermatology
2) Very repetitive : General Surgery
3) I dont like kids = no pediatrics

Which brings me mainly to family medicine and internal medicine or psych (dont like psych much either)
What exactly differentiates a PA from a medical student besides the degree and schooling in the career. My three experiences with a PA were A) in a interventional cardiology clinic, she pretty much did all patient consults B) Emergency room she saved me from severe dehydration C) A low cost family clinic
In all three cases I saw the PA work independently, so what is it that allows them to perform almost the same job as family doctors and some hospitalists with only 2 years of education?

Best thing you can do is shadow different PAs in different settings.....I did that and it became very clear that PA knowledge is more superficial than a physician.....it was clear to me that I did not desire to care for the ill with only two years of superficial knowledge as opposed to the other option (md/do) which offers seven years of well developed knowledge that is acquired through medical school and residency.

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[YoungDoc25]

Very funny but that's just not the same thing. Nurse practitioners are prepared to provide urgent care and have been doing so safely for over 5 decades now.

Fixed that for you.

You're making assumptions. Nursing is a female dominant field. I don't think the gender of the nurse is the guiding light for this argument.

What other explanation can be had for your dying need to flex your degree at a patient that is needing their diabetes medication refilled?

Totally anecdotal, but the only militant/inferiority complex nurse practitioners I’ve met are males. Coincidental? Probably. But if the shoe fits..

 

[FNP_Blix]

Fixed that for you.


What other explanation can be had for your dying need to flex your degree at a patient that is needing their diabetes medication refilled?

Totally anecdotal, but the only militant/inferiority complex nurse practitioners I’ve met are males. Coincidental? Probably. But if the shoe fits..

You didn't fix anything. Nurse practitioners do in fact provide primary care. They do it independently in 22 states and in D.C. And again, you're making assumptions about nurses and their intentions based on gender. This argument is not a new one, and the crusade for independent nursing practice, respect in the work place, etc. has largely been fought by female nurses (and successfully I should add). It is not about ego, but about stomping out elitist future physicians like yourself and doing right by our patients.

 

[YoungDoc25]

You didn't fix anything. Nurse practitioners do in fact provide primary care. They do it independently in 22 states and in D.C. And again, you're making assumptions about male nurses based on gender. This argument is not new, and the crusade independent nursing practice, respect in the work place, etc. has largely been fought by female nurses. It is not about ego, but about stomping out elitist future physicians like yourself and doing right by our patients.

So what is your motive in your DNP program? Is it providing care for rural America that is so underserved by us mean ole, rich doctors (real doctors, not the online, nursing type)? Or is it providing the same kind of care that a physician does, but more hollistically since you’re a dr nurse? Or is it to protect patients from those medicine pushing physicians that are just looking for a paycheck? What about those APRNs? You DNPs are beyond them, yet they’re the equivalent of a physician too. So that makes you guys.. what? The all knowing “noctor”?

I just ask because I can’t keep straight what your degree is actually for and which propaganda you guys actually want to push.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow83]

The real problem is physicians keep hiring these midlevels; otherwise, there wouldn't be a threat.

Financially if I were to take a small loan of a million dollars and start my own business/hospital I would also be gun hoe on nurse practitioners, PA's, etc.
My reasoning is family doctors really dont do that much work in clinic as far as complexity goes. Who is the average patient? Someone has the flu, another person might be pregnant, someone needs a referral to a specialist, someone broke their toe. Sure there are some complex scenarios but for the most part its the usual drama. Why pay more to a family doctor when a PA can do the same job?

My assumption on why the reason NP's and PA's salary is as it is, is because they generate a considerable amount of income for the business and are getting a percentage of it.

Hell im sure if you were an octopus nurse with 8 arms and could be in 4 different Operating rooms at once your salary would also be 4X.

 

[FNP_Blix]

So what is your motive in your DNP program? Is it providing care for rural America that is so underserved by us mean ole, rich doctors (real doctors, not the online, nursing type)? Or is it providing the same kind of care that a physician does, but more hollistically since you’re a dr nurse? Or is it to protect patients from those medicine pushing physicians that are just looking for a paycheck? What about those APRNs? You DNPs are beyond them, yet they’re the equivalent of a physician too. So that makes you guys.. what? The all knowing “noctor”?

I just ask because I can’t keep straight what your degree is actually for and which propaganda you guys actually want to push.

Nursing is currently in dire need of doctorally prepared clinicians, researchers, and professors. The objective of the DNP is to have more qualified nursing professors, investigators, and stronger clinicians. There is debate in the nursing world as well if the DNP actually creates a stronger clinician. However, a DNP will be able address broader issues in healthcare and nursing as equal members at the table. Nurses should always be able to guide their own fates, govern their own profession, and have an equal say in how healthcare is delivered in this country. A DNP will promote that.

And their is no propaganda that we are trying to push. We are addressing a real shortage to medical services in both rural and urban areas, across multiple specialties. With an additional 20 million people now insured through the ACA, the nurse practitioner has a relevant role delivering healthcare services. Physicians cannot do this alone.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow83]

And just to be perfectly clear, I don't condone denigrating midlevels, but if you don't recognize that they are increasingly threatening the role and compensation of physicians, then you aren't paying attention: How much money is a nurse practitioner worth?

Its just a fact of life and a capitalist economy.
Its the same scenario with why we would get rid of engineers educated in the states and hire someone who got a 12 month online degree in India to code. Because frankly the engineer (and I Speak from experience) spent 1.5/4 years in humanities, another 1 year learning high level physics and math, and another .5 /4 years writing his senior thesis when the reality is all he needs to do is tell a program what to do which is very damn simple.
Or us using china and Indian factories as opposed to American. Why? Because a 5 year old child in a sweat shop is perfectly capable of attaching the collar or button onto shirts or gluing pieces of plastic together on that new made in china product you made and doesnt need 18 years of education
Its the same thing with NP/PA. They do have limits, you probably wont see a PA performing a heart transplant but to tell someone they have strep throat, or perform a physical exam, etc they are perfectly capable and cheaper. And frankly there is a lot of wasted time in medical school .

Morally the opportunistic way may not be right, but if it brings in $$$, then thats the way the business will go.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Nursing is currently in dire need of doctorally prepared clinicians, researchers, and professors. The objective of the DNP is to have more qualified nursing professors, investigators, and stronger clinicians. There is debate in the nursing world as well if the DNP actually creates a stronger clinician. However, a DNP will be able address broader issues in healthcare and nursing as equal members at the table. Nurses should always be able to guide their own fates and govern their own profession. A DNP will promote that.

And their is no propaganda that we are trying to push. We are addressing a real shortage to medical services in both rural and urban areas, across multiple specialties. With an additional 20 million people now insured through the ACA, the nurse practitioner has a relevant role delivering healthcare services. Physicians cannot do this alone.

Part 1 translation = we made it up to call ourselves doctors to give us and legislators a false sense of educational equivalence to physicians/PhDs. If you want stronger instructors/investigators/etc, go get a real doctorate in something. Your profession simply making up degrees does nothing to fix that. But that’s much quicker than pursuing a PhD plus you get the Dr. title, so of course it’s worth it to you. In the name of what’s best for your patients though of course.

The second part is a lot of the normal BS you all spout. If your goal is to help rural Americans, your intro definitely needs work. Do you know what they say they’re going to do when they’re sick? You should since your profession is so much more in tune with patients. “I’m going to the DOCTOR”. The doctor they speak of, I assure you, is not a nurse practitioner. They’ll take what they can get, but that gives you no right to mislead them into believing you’re anymore than a nurse with extra schooling to provide basic medical needs. They do not have the educational background to distinguish between a dr nurse and an actual physician. You’re simply preying on the uninformed while preaching about looking out for the patients. Heck, you all don’t even know what a DNP is obviously, so don’t expect the rest of society to distinguish you from the other 45 acronyms your profession uses.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

and stronger clinicians

Lol, yeah those 800 hours of essentially clinical shadowing really help make excellent clinicians. Stop passing around the kool-aid, no one is drinking it. In addition I have personally seen the material in some of these DNP pathology courses and they go as deep as my undergrad patho class. The DNP is a joke that was created to help push an agenda and further confuse patients as to who is actually qualified to see them and address their medical concerns.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Sorry you guys feel that way. Nurse practitioners are not claiming to have equivalent knowledge as physicians though, so why are you so threatened? Nursing has every right to advance it's profession and knowledge base as any other profession has. Know one is complaining about the pharmD, or doctorally prepared physical therapist. Nursing is doing right by their patients for promoting more education. And until more physicians are created to meet the needs of our overwhelming population in this country, which will take decades, nurse practitioners are not going anywhere. We will continue to expand and fight for independent practice authority each year. If you really want to make an impact, then go fund a physician and quit gripping on SDN about the evil nurses.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Nurse practitioners are not claiming to have equivalent knowledge as physicians

We will continue to expand and fight for independent practice authority each year.

Don't kid yourself, that is exactly what you are doing.

 

[857770]

You didn't fix anything. Nurse practitioners do in fact provide primary care. They do it independently in 22 states and in D.C. And again, you're making assumptions about nurses and their intentions based on gender. This argument is not a new one, and the crusade for independent nursing practice, respect in the work place, etc. has largely been fought by female nurses (and successfully I should add). It is not about ego, but about stomping out elitist future physicians like yourself and doing right by our patients.

Doing right by our patients isn't letting less qualified people do the job. If you want to be called a doctor, go to medical school. Then you will have a scientific background and understand why something is happening and not just know what you would do when you see something. This is why there are PAs and NPs that go to medical school.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Sorry you guys feel that way. Nurse practitioners are not claiming to have equivalent knowledge as physicians though, so why are you so threatened? Nursing has every right to advance it's profession and knowledge base as any other profession has. Know one is complaining about the pharmD, or doctorally prepared physical therapist. Nursing is doing right by their patients for promoting more education. And until more physicians are created to meet the needs of our overwhelming population in this country, which will take decades, nurse practitioners are not going anywhere. We will continue to expand and fight for independent practice authority each year. If you really want to make an impact, then go fund a physician and quit gripping on SDN about the evil nurses.

I give you a 1/10 for the troll job. Only because you’re a doctor.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Doing right by our patients isn't letting less qualified people do the job. If you want to be called a doctor, go to medical school. Then you will have a scientific background and understand why something is happening and not just what you would do when you see something.

So every one in healthcare that holds a doctorate (e.g., physical therapist, pharmacists, etc.) are basically posers in your eyes and should go to medical school. Sorry, but you guys are not the only experts out there. There are other professionals in healthcare, including nursing, that can broaden their education and become experts in their own right. This is an elitist thing, and has nothing to do with patient safety or genuine concern on your part.

 

[FNP_Blix]

I give you a 1/10 for the troll job. Only because you’re a doctor.

Actually, I am not a DNP. I have an MSN. And no, I'm not trolling. I'm arguing my point of view.

 

[YoungDoc25]

So every one in healthcare that holds a doctorate (e.g., physical therapist, pharmacists, etc.) are basically posers in your eyes and should go to medical school. Sorry, but you guys are not the only experts out there. There are other professionals in healthcare, including nursing, that can broaden their education and become experts in their own right. This is an elitist thing, and has nothing to do with patient safety or genuine concern on your part.

Are they attempting to practice a dumbed down version of medicine and claiming they do our job as well as us?

 

[FNP_Blix]

Don't kid yourself, that is exactly what you are doing.

No, we don't claim to have equivalent knowledge. Advance practice nurses (i.e., CRNAs, NP, CNM) do however have the ability to practice just as safely and efficaciously as physicians in many specialties generating similar outcomes.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Actually, I am not a DNP. I have an MSN. And no, I'm not trolling. I'm arguing my point of view.

So why were you introducing yourself as a doctor...?

 

[FNP_Blix]

So why were you introducing yourself as a doctor...?

I didn't.

 

[57A]

Very funny but that's just not the same thing. Nurse practitioners are prepared to provide primary care and have been doing so safely for over 5 decades now.

How are your skills in research? As a former NP, I know the research is poor. You can't make statements like that without sounding ridiculous.

 

[YoungDoc25]

I didn't.

0/10 troll job then

No, we don't claim to have equivalent knowledge. Advance practice nurses (i.e., CRNAs, NP, CNM) do however have the ability to practice just as safely and efficaciously as physicians in many specialties generating similar outcomes.

Lololol. Please enlighten me as to which specialties don’t need physician oversight.

 

[FNP_Blix]

How are your skills in research? As a former NP, I know the research is poor. You can't make statements like that without sounding ridiculous.

Why don't you look to your own medical leaders for some of the questions you demand answers to. Some of the research put out there that make comparison with physicians and NPs are actually by medical organizations. In 2000, the American Medical Association published a randomized trial called, Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians that helps substantiate my statement. The NEJM recently published an article (written by a physician, Dr. Bodenheimer) that is called Rethinking the Primary Care Workforce - An Expanded Role for Nurses. You see, the part you don't get is that mature physicians and nurses actually work together very well. Many physicians out there will agree that nurse practicing to improve access, unimpeded, is a good thing overall.

 

[Mad Jack]

Why not? She received a doctorate, didn't she? This just shows that this physician is confident in his/her own abilities and credentials. He/she realizes that she is the physician (a title no one can have but a MD or DO) and so she probably is like, "so what?". This DNP brings a different skill set to the table. She is not a physician but a highly educated nurse capable of practicing both medicine and nursing. IMO, this is a very strong degree to have, especially if the DNP has solid RN experience.

Gross

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Sorry, but you guys are not the only experts out there.

Actually, when it comes to medicine we are the experts.

So every one in healthcare that holds a doctorate (e.g., physical therapist, pharmacists, etc.) are basically posers in your eyes and should go to medical school

If they want to walk into a patient room and say the words, "hi I am Dr. X" then yes they should go to medical school. However those people don't do that. They are great in their field, but they are not doctors of medicine and have no right to introduce themselves as doctors to patients.

No, we don't claim to have equivalent knowledge. Advance practice nurses (i.e., CRNAs, NP, CNM) do however have the ability to practice just as safely and efficaciously as physicians in many specialties generating similar outcomes.

One, yes you absolutely do claim that so quit saying you don't. It's all your leaders ever talk about. Two, the studies that show "similar outcomes" are absolute bull**** and can be picked apart by even the most amateur researchers or statistics students. It Takes a matter of seconds to look at those studies and see the absolutely gaping holes in the methodology and data analysis.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Why don't you look to your own medical leaders for some of the questions you demand answers to. Some of the research put out there that make comparison with physicians and NPs are actually by medical organizations. In 2000, the American Medical Association published a randomized trial called, Primary Care Outcomes in Patients Treated by Nurse Practitioners or Physicians that helps substantiate my statement. The NEJM recently published an article (written by a physician, Dr. Bodenheimer) that is called Rethinking the Primary Care Workforce - An Expanded Role for Nurses. You see, the part you don't get is that mature physicians and nurses actually work together very well. Many physicians out there will agree that nurse practicing to improve access, unimpeded, is a good thing overall.

Qualities used to determine the better provider:
“Patient satisfaction after initial appointment (based on 15-item questionnaire); health status (Medical Outcomes Study Short-Form 36), satisfaction, and physiologic test results 6 months later; and service utilization (obtained from computer records) for 1 year after initial appointment, compared by type of provider.”

Seems like a great basis of solving who’s the better provider, noctor vs doctor lol keep pushing that BS propaganda

 

[FNP_Blix]

Actually, when it comes to medicine we are the experts.



If they want to walk into a patient room and say the words, "hi I am Dr. X" then yes they should go to medical school. However those people don't do that. They are great in their field, but they are not doctors of medicine and have no right to introduce themselves as doctors to patients.



One, yes you absolutely do claim that so quit saying you don't. It's all your leaders ever talk about. Two, the studies that show "similar outcomes" are absolute bull**** and can be picked apart by even the most amateur researchers or statistics students. It Takes a matter of seconds to look at those studies and see the absolutely gaping holes in the methodology and data analysis.

It's not just nursing organizations that publish these studies. There are medical organizations like the NEJM, AMA, and IOM for example that argue similar points that I'm making and call for expanded roles by nurses and nurse practitioners. The standards that you ask for in a study, and all the outcomes of measure that you want, are nearly impossible to capture in one study. However, there is tons of data that points to the efficacy and safety of NPs, CRNAs, and CNMs.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Qualities used to determine the better provider:
“Patient satisfaction after initial appointment (based on 15-item questionnaire); health status (Medical Outcomes Study Short-Form 36), satisfaction, and physiologic test results 6 months later; and service utilization (obtained from computer records) for 1 year after initial appointment, compared by type of provider.”

Seems like a great basis of solving who’s the better provider, noctor vs doctor lol keep pushing that BS propaganda

It would be propaganda if it was one sided. But medical organizations are publishing these articles as well. You're going to have to learn to accept that we aren't going anywhere and many mature physicians are accepting this as well.

 

[YoungDoc25]

It would be propaganda if it was one sided. But medical organizations are publishing these articles as well. You're going to have to learn to accept that we aren't going anywhere and many mature physicians are accepting this as well.

The only MDs pushing it are the ones getting fat paychecks from using you all up. Same with medical organizations using your independence to make $. Notice all of the new independence but no one paying you more.. Maybe they know you’re not the answer to the healthcare issue but are exploiting you while they can. Then again, who cares as long as you get to go home and say I played doctor today. Sadly, patients will suffer before you get put back in line. The lawsuits will add up and these pitiful studies will be exposed, and then you’ll realize how much BS these places/schools fed you.

 

[FNP_Blix]

The only MDs pushing it are the ones getting fat paychecks from using you all up. Same with medical organizations using your independence to make $. Notice all of the new independence but no one paying you more.. Maybe they know you’re not the answer to the healthcare issue but are exploiting you while they can. Then again, who cares as long as you get to go home and say I played doctor today. Sadly, patients will suffer before you get put back in line. The lawsuits will add up and these pitiful studies will be exposed, and then you’ll realize how much BS these places/schools fed you.

The statements you've made are simply not true. And like you did earlier, when you drew a correlation of "militant" nursing intentions and gender, are making false assumptions.

1) There is no evidence of foul play by any of the articles I've mentioned or indication that they are getting "fat paychecks" to set up these studies.
2) Nurse practitioners have enjoyed increasing salaries for several years in a row now. Our national average salary sits just over $100,000 annually. This is great for NPs because the cost of our education is also minimal compared to medical school.
3) Lastly, there is actually independent data that shows that having NPs reduces the likely hood of malpractice suits for a practice or facility. Furthermore, NPs in general have a far better track record when it comes to being named as a primary defendant during a suit. Only about 2% of NPs have ever been named as primary defendant in a med mal suit.

So you see, your arguments just don't hold water. Please learn to work with us and project your anger to your own profession who continue to screw you on a daily basis. Fight for more residencies and better funding. Quit pointing the finger at the nursing profession. We aren't going anywhere.

 

[CaptainJackSparrow83]

The statements you've made are simply not true. And like you did earlier, when you drew a correlation of "militant" nursing intentions and gender, are making false assumptions.

1) There is no evidence of foul play by any of the articles I've mentioned or indication that they are getting "fat paychecks" to set up these studies.
2) Nurse practitioners have enjoyed increasing salaries for several years in a row now. Our national average salary sits just over $100,000 annually. This is great for NPs because the cost of our education is also minimal compared to medical school.
3) Lastly, there is actually independent data that shows that having NPs reduces the likely hood of malpractice suits for a practice or facility. Furthermore, NPs in general have a far better track record when it comes to being named as a primary defendant during a suit. Only about 2% of NPs have ever been named as primary defendant in a med mal suit.

So you see, your arguments just don't hold water. Please learn to work with us and project your anger to your own profession who continue to screw you on a daily basis. Fight for more residencies and better funding. Quit pointing the finger at the nursing profession. We aren't going anywhere.

On this forum I have learned that you will come across incredibly salty people who will beat their heads into walls just to get you to agree with them.
One of the guys on this forum is notorious for that.
To be frank 7 billion people in this world. No matter how good your argument is you cannot change the minds of the *****s. Take my agreement with you as a victory and go enjoy your Saturday, its not worth your time arguing on this site. The marginal happiness will be much greater.

 

[YoungDoc25]

The statements you've made are simply not true. And like you did earlier, when you drew a correlation of "militant" nursing intentions and gender, are making false assumptions.

1) There is no evidence of foul play by any of the articles I've mentioned or indication that they are getting "fat paychecks" to set up these studies.
2) Nurse practitioners have enjoyed increasing salaries for several years in a row now. Our national average salary sits just over $100,000 annually. This is great for NPs because the cost of our education is also minimal compared to medical school.
3) Lastly, there is actually independent data that shows that having NPs reduces the likely hood of malpractice suits for a practice or facility. Furthermore, NPs in general have a far better track record when it comes to being named as a primary defendant during a suit. Only about 2% of NPs have ever been named as primary defendant in a med mal suit.

So you see, your arguments just don't hold water. Please learn to work with us and project your anger to your own profession who continue to screw you on a daily basis. Fight for more residencies and better funding. Quit pointing the finger at the nursing profession. We aren't going anywhere.

1) the studies you quote are not inaccurate in their methods, but they are completely inaccurate in what people use them to prove. None of those studies measure anything relative to a NP providing the same level of care as a physician. They measure how a patient feels post encounter and how likely they are to come back. That has nothing to do with the health of the patient. The studies are incredibly misleading when looking at who the better provider is.

2) sweet story, but they do not correlate with the level of independence you all claim now. The billing and pay would be close to equal if that were the case, yet it’s nowhere close to that. I wonder why? Maybe they use you all to offset the Medicaid/Medicare patients that reimburse little to nothing. Maybe that saves them a lot of money and they don’t actually care about the quality of healthcare being provided, but they do care about their bottom line and realize you can be exploited for it. Wow, that’s crazy to think about huh?

3) NPs aren’t/haven’t been subject to the same lawsuits as physicians because of the level of malpractice insurance. Who would you go after? Someone where you might win a few thousand dollars from or the person you could gouge 10s of thousands of dollars from. It has, again, nothing to do with you and your degree but everything to do with money. You’re not a special butterfly. You’re a way for people to make more money while the law permits it. You all lower the number of lawsuits for physicians because you can evaluate patients that do not need our time and we can focus on higher acuity cases. That is the foundation for your profession and PAs. Somewhere along the line that role in healthcare for you all has been lost. It’s not that you all are magical healers that solve problems we would never see. You simply give us more time to devote to patients who require that time. Again, you’re not a special butterfly.

I don’t need to search pubmed to understand this. My arguments aren’t ground in BS studies twisted to fit an agenda. It’s simply just an understanding of how a business chooses to work. So we can agree to disagree.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Are you referring to PA's as clowns? thats kind of harsh to be honest. The ones you connect with may be garbage but there are certainly adept ones out there.

You're right. Clowns have their own profession. They typically go to clown college and don't try to creep into another profession and then demand special rights, compensation and rename. I sincerely apologize to any clown out there.

 

[YoungDoc25]

On this forum I have learned that you will come across incredibly salty people who will beat their heads into walls just to get you to agree with them.
One of the guys on this forum is notorious for that.
To be frank 7 billion people in this world. No matter how good your argument is you cannot change the minds of the *****s. Take my agreement with you as a victory and go enjoy your Saturday, its not worth your time arguing on this site. The marginal happiness will be much greater.

Hey man you just worry about those dissecting skills. You’ll be the first to be replaced by a nurse with those stone hands

 

[FNP_Blix]

1) the studies you quote are not inaccurate in their methods, but they are completely inaccurate in what people use them to prove. None of those studies measure anything relative to a NP providing the same level of care as a physician. They measure how a patient feels post encounter and how likely they are to come back. That has nothing to do with the health of the patient. The studies are incredibly misleading when looking at who the better provider is.

2) sweet story, but they do not correlate with the level of independence you all claim now. The billing and pay would be close to equal if that were the case, yet it’s nowhere close to that. I wonder why? Maybe they use you all to offset the Medicaid/Medicare patients that reimburse little to nothing. Maybe that saves them a lot of money and they don’t actually care about the quality of healthcare being provided, but they do care about their bottom line and realize you can be exploited for it. Wow, that’s crazy to think about huh?

3) NPs aren’t/haven’t been subject to the same lawsuits as physicians because of the level of malpractice insurance. Who would you go after? Someone where you might win a few thousand dollars from or the person you could gouge 10s of thousands of dollars from. It has, again, nothing to do with you and your degree but everything to do with money. You’re not a special butterfly. You’re a way for people to make more money while the law permits it. You all lower the number of lawsuits for physicians because you can evaluate patients that do not need our time and we can focus on higher acuity cases. That is the foundation for your profession and PAs. Somewhere along the line that role in healthcare for you all has been lost. It’s not that you all are magical healers that solve problems we would never see. You simply give us more time to devote to patients who require that time. Again, you’re not a special butterfly.

I don’t need to search pubmed to understand this. My arguments aren’t ground in BS studies twisted to fit an agenda. It’s simply just an understanding of how a business chooses to work. So we can agree to disagree.

Let me ask you a question. Do you have any data that says that NPs are doing a bad job in primary care? Is there anything that you can reference that would support your argument that NPs are unsafe or unfit to practice independently? Cause I've been debating on SDN for over 2 months now, and have come across many people that hold your view, but not once have they been able to provide a study, or something that supports their side.

Also, if you want to talk about exploitation, lets look at residencies and the amount of hours of free labor you have to do their. If anyone is being exploited, its residents. I don't perceive myself as being exploited one bit.

And, no, NPs that practice have the same malpractice limits as any physician in the same specialty. It's because of this that NPs have experienced a very slight increase in litigations, however still minimal compared to that of their physician counterparts.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Pharmacists are the highest authority with drug knowledge in healthcare.
DPTs are the highest authority on physical therapy modalities in healthcare.
Physicians are the highest authority in medicine in making medical diagnoses and treatment plans.

DNPs are the highest authority in what? Nursing education? Nursing research? They certainly arent the highest authority in making medical diagnoses and treatment plan. So have they earned the right to use the doctor title clinically or have they earned it like phd professors? Because phd professors dont introduce themselves as doctors in the clinic.

Yes DNPs and PhD Nurses are the ultimate authority in nursing. The largest subset of healthcare professionals in healthcare today that are in charge of a vast majority of healthcare and medical service implementation.

 

[FNP_Blix]

So how is that relevant when you walk into a patient room to dx and create a tx plan?

Mentioning your doctorate in the context of treating a patient implies that you're at the peak of training in coming up with dx's and tx plans.

Dentists are doctors in their office because they're the highest educated in dentistry. Phds are doctors in their classrooms and labs because they're the highest educated in their field. They dont walk into a FM clinic or hosptial and keep going by the title of doctor. So why do NPs? If NPs want to flex their doctorates, they should do in in places they earned to do it. In nursing lecture halls and nursing labs.

Because DNPs have earned their doctorates and so therefore have the right to be called such. They are Doctors of Nursing Practice. I realize that nurses work in similar areas a physicians and often times, the lines are blurred on the tasks and services that we perform. But just because many of the tasks we do and the areas we work in are very similar, doesn't discount a DNP's education and qualification in their own field. Like a dentist, a PhD, or whatever, we have every right to be called doctor as well if that is the highest level of education we attained. I would simply announce that I am the nurse practitioner to make it more clear...assuming that I was a DNP in the first place.

 

[FNP_Blix]

also, obligatory dictionary definition:

doc·tor
ˈdäktər/
noun

1. 1.
   a qualified practitioner of medicine; a physician.
   synonyms: physician, MD, medical practitioner, clinician; More
2. 2.
   a person who holds a doctorate.
   "he was made a Doctor of Divinity"

verb

1. 1.
   change the content or appearance of (a document or picture) in order to deceive; falsify.
   "the reports could have been doctored"
   synonyms: falsify, tamper with, interfere with, alter, change; More
2. 2.
   informal
   treat (someone) medically.
   "he contemplated giving up doctoring"

Whether you like it or not, the number one use for Doctor is synonymous with Physician. Your method comes second, and it is certainly not acceptable in clinical settings.

lol okay lets pull webster dictionary here and start defining the role of doctor in multiple healthcare settings and disciplines. You're going to have to come up with a better argument than that.

 

[FNP_Blix]

But why the need to flex your degree in a highly inapporiate place? 99% of people use their titles only in the setting where they're operating and using the PhD. Pharmacists never demand to be called a doctor outside of the pharmacy. PhDs never demand to be called a doctor outside of their universities. I have yet to meet one MD or DO that demands to be called doctor outside of their work place.

So why do DNPs demand to bring it up outside of the nursing lecture halls and research facilities?

MD/DO is a doctorate in patient care. DNP is not.

Huh? lol are you in high school still or something? Where do you think nurse's practice? We practice in the same areas as physicians. And DNPs are just as much as "doctorate's in patient care" as well.

 

[NontradCA]

Not sure why you guys are responding to this thread. We need to stop giving things like this the time of day. Like arguing with some random nurse on the internet isn't going to help anything. He obviously has inferiority issues.

It also is derailing the thread. Can we put things back on topic?

 

[NontradCA]

And remember guys, nurses are doctors too. Stop being so mean.

 

[YoungDoc25]

Let me ask you a question. Do you have any data that says that NPs are doing a bad job in primary care? Is there anything that you can reference that would support your argument that NPs are unsafe or unfit to practice independently? Cause I've been debating on SDN for over 2 months now, and have come across many people that hold your view, but not once have they been able to provide a study, or something that supports their side.

Also, if you want to talk about exploitation, lets look at residencies and the amount of hours of free labor you have to do their. If anyone is being exploited, its residents. I don't perceive myself as being exploited one bit.

And, no, NPs that practice have the same malpractice limits as any physician in the same specialty. It's because of this that NPs have experienced a very slight increase in litigations, however still minimal compared to that of their physician counterparts.

Lol. Asking for such a study shows your extremely limited understanding of ethics and statistics (or your complete disregard in order to try to prove a point). A physician (or nurse) led study will never force patients to receive a lower quality of care to prove a point that should be commonly understood. The ethical dilemma in that is undeniable. The difference is that we haven’t pulled random factors out of our butt to try to prove a point. Your profession has yet to produce a quality study evaluating relevant factors of proficient healthcare as well. The dust will settle as your independent practice rights grow, as does your lawsuit trail. Like I said previously, it’s unfortunate that it will come to that.

We have more substantial professional liability insurance coverage than NPs and PAs, making us a much more likely target if we leave a signature anywhere on your charts. Don’t be naive.

We are indeed exploited as well, yet we are well aware. Are you? It’s the price we pay to provide the highest quality of care for our future patients. What are you exploited for? Your unique skills? Lol

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Not sure why you guys are responding to this thread. We need to stop giving things like this the time of day. Like arguing with some random nurse on the internet isn't going to help anything. He obviously has inferiority issues.

It also is derailing the thread. Can we put things back on topic?

The argument has gone on too long and has been running in circles, but it's important to provide to physicians and medical students arguments for why midlevels should not be given the same scope of practice as that of MD/DOs.

 

[NontradCA]

The argument has gone on too long and has been running in circles, but it's important to provide to physicians and medical students arguments for why midlevels should not be given the same scope of practice as that of MD/DOs.

You think there's med students and physicians out there who would use this thread as a resource? Serious question.

Lol premeds. I thought this was a med student forum.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

You think there's med students and physicians out there who would use this thread as a resource? Serious question.

Well, I use SDN as a resource, so I don't see why not. I don't think all med students and physicians are taking time out of their busy lives to peruse this bloated thread, but it's certainly possible that a small number are. And the experiences shared here may be helpful, especially if the readers have begun to doubt midlevels' skills and worry about their pursuit of independence.

 

[FNP_Blix]

Lol. Asking for such a study shows your extremely limited understanding of ethics and statistics (or your complete disregard in order to try to prove a point). A physician (or nurse) led study will never force patients to receive a lower quality of care to prove a point that should be commonly understood. The ethical dilemma in that is undeniable. The difference is that we haven’t pulled random factors out of our butt to try to prove a point. Your profession has yet to produce a quality study evaluating relevant factors of proficient healthcare as well. The dust will settle as your independent practice rights grow, as does your lawsuit trail. Like I said previously, it’s unfortunate that it will come to that.

We have more substantial professional liability insurance coverage than NPs and PAs, making us a much more likely target if we leave a signature anywhere on your charts. Don’t be naive.

We are indeed exploited as well, yet we are well aware. Are you? It’s the price we pay to provide the highest quality of care for our future patients. What are you exploited for? Your unique skills? Lol

No you're wrong again. There is nothing unethical about comparing two practices head to head. There are already plenty of independent nurse led practices out there? So why don't we see physician led studies comparing them? It's because they are afraid of what the results will be and an argument made from ignorance is better than from nothing at all.