How much savings?

[theunraveler]

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I am wondering just how much savings (in AUD) ideally one should have before starting medical school. This is assuming I get PR and pay domestic fees (not sure which one)

 

[redshifteffect]

This depends on which city you will be studying in.

Just in case you missed it, there is already a thread on this topic:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=624379

 

[theunraveler]

This depends on which city you will be studying in.

Just in case you missed it, there is already a thread on this topic:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=624379

I'm thinking of an average sum of money.

I read that thread and I feel its slightly different to the questions I'm asking since I'm already in Australia and may intend to work abit and get PR so I wanna know as a PR where do I fall under the fee bracket?

 

[shan564]

The answer to that is more complicated than you might think. At some schools, the top few domestic students get Commonwealth Supported Places (~$8k/year), and the rest get full fee-paying places (~$40k/year). That's a huge difference.

Also, do you plan on getting loans or do you want to pay it all off from savings? If you want to get loans, you can get started with no savings at all. Of course, you'll save money on loan interest if you have some savings, but there's no "magic number" that you need to have... the more money you have saved up, the more money you'll save in loan interest.

 

[theunraveler]

The answer to that is more complicated than you might think. At some schools, the top few domestic students get Commonwealth Supported Places (~$8k/year), and the rest get full fee-paying places (~$40k/year). That's a huge difference.

Also, do you plan on getting loans or do you want to pay it all off from savings? If you want to get loans, you can get started with no savings at all. Of course, you'll save money on loan interest if you have some savings, but there's no "magic number" that you need to have... the more money you have saved up, the more money you'll save in loan interest.

Woah 😱That is a huge difference, why is that so? I thought all Aussie students pay the same fees and do you know which uni medical school has the CSP ?

 

[redshifteffect]

Woah 😱That is a huge difference, why is that so? I thought all Aussie students pay the same fees and do you know which uni medical school has the CSP ?

All medical schools have CSP.

 

[shan564]

When I said "at some schools", I meant that some schools have the option of full fee-paying places. At the other schools, all domestic students get CSP.

 

[theunraveler]

The answer to that is more complicated than you might think. At some schools, the top few domestic students get Commonwealth Supported Places (~$8k/year), and the rest get full fee-paying places (~$40k/year). That's a huge difference.

Also, do you plan on getting loans or do you want to pay it all off from savings? If you want to get loans, you can get started with no savings at all. Of course, you'll save money on loan interest if you have some savings, but there's no "magic number" that you need to have... the more money you have saved up, the more money you'll save in loan interest.

For the first part, do you know like which uni has that scheme?

As a PR can I use loan for financing medical school? What are some of the terms of a loan? Is CSP open to PR?

Ideally I am planning to work to a few years and have about $40K savings, would that be sufficient?

 

[redshifteffect]

For the first part, do you know like which uni has that scheme?

As a PR can I use loan for financing medical school? What are some of the terms of a loan? Is CSP open to PR?

Ideally I am planning to work to a few years and have about $40K savings, would that be sufficient?

All schools have CSP - you can search for both undergraduate and graduate medical schools. It's just a matter of where you get it. However you will have to write the GAMSAT for graduate schools and the UMAT for undergraduate schools.

As a PR you can get a loan - there are private loans available from banks, and if you have citizenship or PR in another country you can probably get a loan from them as well. The terms depend on which bank you use. Yes CSP is open to PR/Citizens.

There is another scheme where the government pays your HECS and if you pay them back once you start working, at a rate indexed to inflation (but no interest on top of the principle), if you make above a certain threshold. I think you have to wait 2 years after you get your PR to be eligible for that though. However you get can CSP right away when you get your PR.

40K savings is probably enough to pay your tuition (say 8k X 5 years), but not enough for living expenses. You might have to look at Youth Allowance, New start or any of the other welfare programs the government has, but again you will have to wait 2 years after your PR to be eligible for those.

 

[shan564]

The Australian government gives small loans, but I think the best loans (in terms of size and interest rate) are the ones that come from the American government. Most of the Canadians in my program have a lot of difficulty getting loans, and the Asians usually come from wealthy families.

 

[theunraveler]

All schools have CSP - you can search for both undergraduate and graduate medical schools. It's just a matter of where you get it. However you will have to write the GAMSAT for graduate schools and the UMAT for undergraduate schools.

As a PR you can get a loan - there are private loans available from banks, and if you have citizenship or PR in another country you can probably get a loan from them as well. The terms depend on which bank you use. Yes CSP is open to PR/Citizens.

There is another scheme where the government pays your HECS and if you pay them back once you start working, at a rate indexed to inflation (but no interest on top of the principle), if you make above a certain threshold. I think you have to wait 2 years after you get your PR to be eligible for that though. However you get can CSP right away when you get your PR.

40K savings is probably enough to pay your tuition (say 8k X 5 years), but not enough for living expenses. You might have to look at Youth Allowance, New start or any of the other welfare programs the government has, but again you will have to wait 2 years after your PR to be eligible for those.

I am abit unsure about the CSP and HECS, how do they work and how does it differ from each other? Also some Aussies pay like 32K AUD for medical school fees, why is it so?

 

[Excanuk]

They couldn't get into CSP supported places and still wanted to do medicine so they got a full fee paying spot.

If you want more info on HECS start here:
http://www.goingtouni.gov.au/Main/FeesLoansAndScholarships/Undergraduate/Default.htm

 

[theunraveler]

I was under the impression that PR dont get any form of help at all except that they pay the same fees as the Aussie students

 

[redshifteffect]

I was under the impression that PR dont get any form of help at all except that they pay the same fees as the Aussie students

You are still eligible for CSP places though. Also it depends on how long you've had your PR, but I'm no expert.

 

[jaketheory]

just to clear up what i think are some inaccuracies in this thread:

Local full fee places were abolished in public uni's by the gov't. Bond and Notre Dame Sydney still have local full fee places. However, Notre Dame offers a mix of both full fee and CSP's.

Permanent residents are eligible for CSP's.

Permanent residents may be eligible for social security payments after 2 years in Aus. These include Austudy and rental assistance among others and your eligibility is dependent on your particular circumstances.

Permanent resident are not eligible for HECS-HELP. This is now open only to Aus citizens. HECS-HELP is a gov't loan scheme which it used to pay off your CSP student contribition. It will not cover living expenses.

And to the OP, your question really was not different from the thread I started as I have PR and will be seeking a CSP as well. I just happen not to be in Aus at the moment, which really makes no difference as I'm saving up here rather than there.

 

[theunraveler]

just to clear up what i think are some inaccuracies in this thread:

Local full fee places were abolished in public uni's by the gov't. Bond and Notre Dame Sydney still have local full fee places. However, Notre Dame offers a mix of both full fee and CSP's.

Permanent residents are eligible for CSP's.

Permanent residents may be eligible for social security payments after 2 years in Aus. These include Austudy and rental assistance among others and your eligibility is dependent on your particular circumstances.

Permanent resident are not eligible for HECS-HELP. This is now open only to Aus citizens. HECS-HELP is a gov't loan scheme which it used to pay off your CSP student contribition. It will not cover living expenses.

And to the OP, your question really was not different from the thread I started as I have PR and will be seeking a CSP as well. I just happen not to be in Aus at the moment, which really makes no difference as I'm saving up here rather than there.

So if I get PR is there any way I can do medicine without paying upfront first? Can Austudy be used to pay the tuition fees?

Also you mentioned you have PR but you are not in Australia, how is that possible? I am under the impression that if you have PR you must stay in Australia for a certain amount of time from the time you get your PR?

 

[jaketheory]

So if I get PR is there any way I can do medicine without paying upfront first? Can Austudy be used to pay the tuition fees?

Also you mentioned you have PR but you are not in Australia, how is that possible? I am under the impression that if you have PR you must stay in Australia for a certain amount of time from the time you get your PR?

Basically no. the only way would be to become an Australian citizen which would require you to live in Australia 4 years after gaining PR and then go through the citizenship application process which takes on average 6 plus or minus three months.

Austudy is a form of social security benefiit, the puropse of which is to pay for living expenses. If you look at the payment schedule on the centrelink website you will see they will not pay you enough to even cover living expenses 100%, much less living expesnses plus your CSP student contribution. How much you get will be dependent on your income stream so if you already have enough money to live off in the bank while in med school for 4-6 years, your centrelink will be markedly reduced. in fact if you have 72k AUD in the bank (18k AUD for living expenses/year) you would likely not be eligible for any centrelink payment at all.

I have a permanent resident VISA. You must have a visa to enter Australia. There are different types of permanent resident visas, some of which you can apply for from outside of Australia, so called "offshore" visas. Once you are granted a permanent resident visa, you are a permanent resident. If you are not in Australia when this is granted you must enter Australia on the visa to validate it. Once granted the visa you must enter Australia to validate it to apply to uni but you do not have to remain in Australia. When you apply to universities they will ask for your date of first entry. a permanent resident visa is valid for 5 years. if 5 years lapses and you are still not in Australia you will have to apply for another visa to enter Australia. If however you are in Australia after that 5 year period, you can remain indefinitely as it is a permanent visa. But you will not be able to leave and then return without another visa. If this is not clear visit the deparment of immigration website.

 

[theunraveler]

thanks jaketheory

I'm thinking if the tuition fee for medicine is around 9k per year, so I will need 36k for 4 years and plus living expenses which should be around another 40k. So ideally I need around 70-80k for medicine?

What about working part time when in medical school? Is it possible to work part time in med sch? Personally for you, how much do you think you will need for med sch?

 

[jaketheory]

thanks jaketheory

I'm thinking if the tuition fee for medicine is around 9k per year, so I will need 36k for 4 years and plus living expenses which should be around another 40k. So ideally I need around 70-80k for medicine?

where is it that you think 10k per year is sufficent for living expenses? i think this is pretty unrealistic. i'm thinking for the Sydney area I'd need 24k per year for living expenses. Granted Sydney is the most expensive Australian city, but I don't think there are other cities with grad entry med schools that have a cost of living 60% less. also, don't forget you will need to buy books and supplies. it is estimated that uni books will run you ~1200/year.

What about working part time when in medical school? Is it possible to work part time in med sch? Personally for you, how much do you think you will need for med sch?

it is certainly possible. from my experience talking with people at different schools it seems that the intensity of first year varies with the schools. I hear 1st year at Monash is pretty intense and that you'd want to only work if absolutely necessary. they only do one year of preclinical there. But in short, it is definitely possible to work part time in school.

i'm not real certain about the cost which is why i started the thread. but it is looking like 9k CSP student contribution + 1200 books/supplies + 24k living expenses = ~34k/year. I am pretty sure this would be sufficient. four years = 136k. I certainly can't save that much so will be hoping to get into one of the 3 schools that provide US loans. if i am not competitive i'll have to deal with private loans. i'm currently working on saving money and can only hope i'll have ~30k or more in savings by the time school starts.

 

[theunraveler]

where is it that you think 10k per year is sufficent for living expenses? i think this is pretty unrealistic. i'm thinking for the Sydney area I'd need 24k per year for living expenses. Granted Sydney is the most expensive Australian city, but I don't think there are other cities with grad entry med schools that have a cost of living 60% less. also, don't forget you will need to buy books and supplies. it is estimated that uni books will run you ~1200/year.

I live in Brisbane atm studying vet science, it is definitely possible to live on 10k budget per year if you keep things simple (no clubbing, no fine dining, cook everyday, no life basically). 10k is all I'm getting every year from my Mom's Scholarship 😀. I know a few Japanese classmates who survive on less than 10k per year but of course they do work (once a week) to support themselves.

I would like to go to UQ medical school if possible.

it is certainly possible. from my experience talking with people at different schools it seems that the intensity of first year varies with the schools. I hear 1st year at Monash is pretty intense and that you'd want to only work if absolutely necessary. they only do one year of preclinical there. But in short, it is definitely possible to work part time in school.

i'm not real certain about the cost which is why i started the thread. but it is looking like 9k CSP student contribution + 1200 books/supplies + 24k living expenses = ~34k/year. I am pretty sure this would be sufficient. four years = 136k. I certainly can't save that much so will be hoping to get into one of the 3 schools that provide US loans. if i am not competitive i'll have to deal with private loans. i'm currently working on saving money and can only hope i'll have ~30k or more in savings by the time school starts.

Thanks for the knowledge. Sydney seems very expensive, have you considered elsewhere?

 

[jaketheory]

I live in Brisbane atm studying vet science, it is definitely possible to live on 10k budget per year if you keep things simple (no clubbing, no fine dining, cook everyday, no life basically). 10k is all I'm getting every year from my Mom's Scholarship 😀. I know a few Japanese classmates who survive on less than 10k per year but of course they do work (once a week) to support themselves.

do you receive 10k per academic year or per calendar year? because 10k per academic year is ~13.3k/calendar year (which i acknowledge is not that much more). how do you live off so little? even at 13.3k/calendar year, that is less than $260 per week. how much do you pay in rent per week? I know I could live off less than 24k/year in Sydney but I'm trying to overestimate to ensure I don' end up in a situation where've i've run out of money. i'm will also be at least 32 years old by the time I start studying medicine and won't be interested in share houses with 5+ flat mates. I probably won't even consider living with more than 2 flate mates and will try to live alone if i can find a way to afford it. while i know Brisbane is cheaper than Sydney, its is not a drastic difference.

i live in Boston which i acknowledge is a bit expensive, but i have gone to great lengths to reduce my expenditures to help me save for school. i eat rice and beans nearly everyday, often twice a day. and i'm not talking canned beans; i cook my own because dried beans cost a third or less than that of cooked canned beans. i still find it hard to regularly spend only $65/week not including my rent, phone, and utility bills which add up to another $185/week on average. that is a total of $250/week, but i can't always actually spend that little. granted boston is more expensive, but it is my hope that i dont have to be quite so frugal when i start studying; i probably wont have time for so much cooking or the shopping around i do to save money.

Thanks for the knowledge. Sydney seems very expensive, have you considered elsewhere?

i have. i'll probably end up preferencing UQ first only because i think i'll have the best chance of getting an unencumbered CSP there. i honestly do not like the idea of studying in a class with 550 students though so i am considering preferencing elsewhere and risking getting a BMP or not getting a place at all just because of this massive class size.

 

[theunraveler]

do you receive 10k per academic year or per calendar year? because 10k per academic year is ~13.3k/calendar year (which i acknowledge is not that much more). how do you live off so little? even at 13.3k/calendar year, that is less than $260 per week. how much do you pay in rent per week? I know I could live off less than 24k/year in Sydney but I'm trying to overestimate to ensure I don' end up in a situation where've i've run out of money. i'm will also be at least 32 years old by the time I start studying medicine and won't be interested in share houses with 5+ flat mates. I probably won't even consider living with more than 2 flate mates and will try to live alone if i can find a way to afford it. while i know Brisbane is cheaper than Sydney, its is not a drastic difference.

I get 10k per year which covers from Jan to Dec every year. My rent is 140per week includes internet, utilities etc. I dont spend a single cent on transport because I live so close to UQ I'm practically in UQ campus itself lol. Every nite I see the security guards in their patrol van around where I stay 😀. I cook everyday and my grocery per week is about 50 bucks and that is considering if I buy tidbits, usually I get essentials like meat, bread, eggs, fruits etc.

I live in a house with 5 other people, the house is abit shabby and run down but I can manage with it as long as I get internet and hot showers. All are students and very quiet, I think I'm the only loud one here when I play computer games....

i live in Boston which i acknowledge is a bit expensive, but i have gone to great lengths to reduce my expenditures to help me save for school. i eat rice and beans nearly everyday, often twice a day. and i'm not talking canned beans; i cook my own because dried beans cost a third or less than that of cooked canned beans. i still find it hard to regularly spend only $65/week not including my rent, phone, and utility bills which add up to another $185/week on average. that is a total of $250/week, but i can't always actually spend that little. granted boston is more expensive, but it is my hope that i dont have to be quite so frugal when i start studying; i probably wont have time for so much cooking or the shopping around i do to save money.

i have. i'll probably end up preferencing UQ first only because i think i'll have the best chance of getting an unencumbered CSP there. i honestly do not like the idea of studying in a class with 550 students though so i am considering preferencing elsewhere and risking getting a BMP or not getting a place at all just because of this massive class size.

I guess it all boils down to individual preferences, you like to stay alone for me I dont mind staying alone or with others. I only care about the cost and which ever is cheaper will be the one for me.

I prefer UQ because I kinda know the standard here and some of the lecturers for vet also teaches med students as well. I think UQ is ok as a university, not the best but also not at the bottom of the barrel. I have heard about the large class size of the medical school but I dont think it matters since all my friends in medical school say that its pretty much self directed learning.

Whats an unencumbered CSP?

 

[jaketheory]

Whats an unencumbered CSP?

a non-bonded CSP place. just in case you aren't aware, I'll briefly explain types of CSP's.

1. Medical rural bonded scholarship (MRBS). you are given a scholarship of ~23k/year tax free. You must work in a rural area for 6 years after you fully qualifying as a specialist/GP.

2. CSP (unencumberd: no strings attached).

3. Bonded medical place. no scholarship and you must work in an area of need 4 for years after you complete internship (RMO and specialist trainee work undertaken an area of need count towards the 4 years).

There are generally only about 5 or less MRBS available at each school and are offered to the highest ranking applicants that have expressed an interest in accepting it. They are incredibly competitive.

The majority of places are unencumbered. About 25% of CSP's are required to be BMP's. They will be offered first to those ranked highest that have expressed an interest in accepting it. However, i don't really imagine anyone would volunteer to take such a place before being considered for an unencumbered CSP. The remaining places are then allocated to those admitted and rank last. So if you are admitted and are ranked in the bottom 25% you will have to either agree to serve the 4 years in an area of need or reapply the following year in hope that you then receive an unencumbered place.

Last year the cut-off for an unencumbered CSP was a gamsat score of 63. numerous people were admitted that scored 63 and some of them got CSP's and others got BMP's. they'd use your gpa as a tie-breaker.

 

[redshifteffect]

theunraaveler:
I thought UQ was at or near the bottom of the barrel in terms of medical schools? Just curious which school have you heard is lower?

jaketheory:
Also with BMP don't you get a 20k living allowance?
10K can be done, but it will be much more difficult in Sydney. I was surviving off 6k in Hobart for quite a while.

 

[theunraveler]

theunraaveler:
I thought UQ was at or near the bottom of the barrel in terms of medical schools? Just curious which school have you heard is lower?

jaketheory:
Also with BMP don't you get a 20k living allowance?
10K can be done, but it will be much more difficult in Sydney. I was surviving off 6k in Hobart for quite a while.

There was this survey of top universities in the world and UQ was in the top 50s? In fact it was closer to top 30...iirc but I dont have the data at hand so could be higher or lower. Also UQ is part of the Group of 8 university which in Singapore is quite prestigious...

Is there a medical school ranking around? Come to think of it, I havent really heard of any medical school in Australia that is "bottom of the barrel"

 

[jaketheory]

theunraaveler:
I thought UQ was at or near the bottom of the barrel in terms of medical schools? Just curious which school have you heard is lower?

i'm curious as to what you meant by "bottom of the barrel". you're saying you that thought it was among the worst/lowest quality Aus med schools? why? i visited it in May and it seemed decent enough, and i've now visited 5 Aus schools. obviously my perspective is not as useful as someone that actually studied there. the royal brisbane along with the children's hospital are definitely a lot nicer than some other hospitals i saw (eg. gold coast hospital).

jaketheory:
Also with BMP don't you get a 20k living allowance?
10K can be done, but it will be much more difficult in Sydney. I was surviving off 6k in Hobart for quite a while.

no, only the MRBS gets the living allowance. that is the primary difference between the two. the BMP is not a scholarship. it is essentially a negotion between a lower ranked applicant and the government that allows the applicant to do medicine despite having a lower admissions rank.

 

[theunraveler]

Mind if I ask jaketheory, what undergrad degree do you have?

 

[jaketheory]

Mind if I ask jaketheory, what undergrad degree do you have?

BS in psychology

 

[redshifteffect]

i'm curious as to what you meant by "bottom of the barrel". you're saying you that thought it was among the worst/lowest quality Aus med schools? why? i visited it in May and it seemed decent enough, and i've now visited 5 Aus schools. obviously my perspective is not as useful as someone that actually studied there. the royal brisbane along with the children's hospital are definitely a lot nicer than some other hospitals i saw (eg. gold coast hospital).



no, only the MRBS gets the living allowance. that is the primary difference between the two. the BMP is not a scholarship. it is essentially a negotion between a lower ranked applicant and the government that allows the applicant to do medicine despite having a lower admissions rank.

Jaketheory,

As you know there's no official ranking systems in Australia and the universities are more or less the same however in terms of the quality of graduates my experience is anecdotal. In most of the places I've worked it's also a well known fact amongst the doctors (both junior and senior).

I think the main problem is the lack of clinical exposure. Even schools with much larger clinical facilities have far fewer students in a graduating class. I've talked to many graduates who got out a few years ago with class sizes of 200 students who were saying there wasn't enough clinical exposure then. So I assume it would be even tougher now.

*Edit*
There is going to be a new Gold Coast Hospital in 2012, which I've heard is going to be one of the most advanced in Queensland, and possibly Australia.

 

[jaketheory]

Jaketheory,

As you know there's no official ranking systems in Australia and the universities are more or less the same however in terms of the quality of graduates my experience is anecdotal. In most of the places I've worked it's also a well known fact amongst the doctors (both junior and senior).

I think the main problem is the lack of clinical exposure. Even schools with much larger clinical facilities have far fewer students in a graduating class. I've talked to many graduates who got out a few years ago with class sizes of 200 students who were saying there wasn't enough clinical exposure then. So I assume it would be even tougher now.

this is definitely good to know. i've been considering preferencing UQ first despite its huge size simply because i probably have the best chance of getting a non-bonded CSP there and they distribute US loans. I'm kind of thinking now of preferencing other schools ahead of UQ with the risk that i dont get in and have to reapply the following year.

There is going to be a new Gold Coast Hospital in 2012, which I've heard is going to be one of the most advanced in Queensland, and possibly Australia.

i am aware of the Gold Coast University Hospital currently under construction. It is literally on the Griffith Uni main campus. The current location of the Griffith med school is adjacent to the current Gold Coast hospital, which about 20 minutes away from the main campus. when i visited in May I walked through the current Gold Coast Hospital and my impression was that it was fairly ****ty. I've volunteered in 3 hospitals, 3 of which it really is unfair to compare to most hospitals as they are world class (brigham and women's and MGH). however, the other hospital was the largest of my hometown, a city 30% smaller than Gold coast in terms of population, yet it was still considerably larger and nicer than the current Gold Coast hospital. yes, they are building a new one, but given what i though about the current one, i could only question how much better it would really be. When at the Griffith med info session I spoke with a local Gold Coast GP that was there to obtain info for her son/daughter who was applying to med and she said that the new hospital was still going to be relatively small, with 750 beds, given the needs of Gold Coast. I dont know if that is at all accurate (whether it will have 750 or if 750 is even considered small).

anyway, since visiting Griffith i've realized that since its a new school it is not approved by the medical board of california and if it gets approval in future, this approval does not necessarily apply to grads retroactively. further, they dont distribute US loans. so for multiple reasons i'm no longer considering Griffith as an option. not sure i'd want to live in gold coast either. its a pretty cool place, but i felt it was more a vacation desitination than a place to call home.

 

[redshifteffect]

this is definitely good to know. i've been considering preferencing UQ first despite its huge size simply because i probably have the best chance of getting a non-bonded CSP there and they distribute US loans. I'm kind of thinking now of preferencing other schools ahead of UQ with the risk that i dont get in and have to reapply the following year.



i am aware of the Gold Coast University Hospital currently under construction. It is literally on the Griffith Uni main campus. The current location of the Griffith med school is adjacent to the current Gold Coast hospital, which about 20 minutes away from the main campus. when i visited in May I walked through the current Gold Coast Hospital and my impression was that it was fairly ****ty. I've volunteered in 3 hospitals, 3 of which it really is unfair to compare to most hospitals as they are world class (brigham and women's and MGH). however, the other hospital was the largest of my hometown, a city 30% smaller than Gold coast in terms of population, yet it was still considerably larger and nicer than the current Gold Coast hospital. yes, they are building a new one, but given what i though about the current one, i could only question how much better it would really be. When at the Griffith med info session I spoke with a local Gold Coast GP that was there to obtain info for her son/daughter who was applying to med and she said that the new hospital was still going to be relatively small, with 750 beds, given the needs of Gold Coast. I dont know if that is at all accurate (whether it will have 750 or if 750 is even considered small).

anyway, since visiting Griffith i've realized that since its a new school it is not approved by the medical board of california and if it gets approval in future, this approval does not necessarily apply to grads retroactively. further, they dont distribute US loans. so for multiple reasons i'm no longer considering Griffith as an option. not sure i'd want to live in gold coast either. its a pretty cool place, but i felt it was more a vacation desitination than a place to call home.

I've never lived in the Gold Coast but worked with people who have. It is the vacation "destination" within Australia. I've heard both good and bad things about living there, so it really depends on your personal preferences.

I'm not sure about the old hospital but the new one is supposed to be state of the art. But even with all the top technology it might not make any difference to the atmosphere of the place...especially as a junior doctor. I'd rather work in a run down hospital where I'm treated well then something that is shiny and new where the nursing staff and senior doctors aren't very supportive. But that's a personal preference.

What I would do if I were you is check out how friendly the staff is and how much clinical experience you will get. The only way to do that is to ask other junior staff and students about their experience. I think this is much more important then anything superficial about the hospital.

750 bed is fairly large, especially for a city the size of Gold Coast. LOL as you know size isn't everything.

As for Griffith, I personally wouldn't want to go to a school where I would be amongst the first graduating class.

 

[shan564]

theunraveler: The rankings you're talking about are the Times Higher Education Supplement, which ranks the schools for biomedicine. You have to consider the distinction between the field of "biomedicine" and the field of "medicine." Biomedicine focuses on the basic sciences, while medicine focuses on the clinical application of those sciences.

So, while UQ might be great for learning the basic sciences, their medical school has been deteriorating lately for several reasons:
1. Their class size has increased, which is important for several reasons (I'll mention them below).
2. They only have two clinical schools to accommodate a class of 550 students; USyd, for comparison's sake, has 6-7 clinical schools (depending on how you define "clinical school") to accommodate half as many students. On my clinical days, I go to the wards as part of a group of 5 students per tutor. And we have several different sessions - in essence, we have 3 tutors for those 5 students. Those three tutors don't teach any other students, so you really develop a good relationship with them and, conversely, they really give you personal attention.
3. They don't have lectures anymore. Their lectures have essentially turned into online readings, probably because they don't have the resources to accommodate 550 students in a lecture hall. I think most universities still have both (I know USyd does) - you can go to the lecture, and you can also get the notes and the lecture video online.
4. Because of the large class size, it's easier to get in. That means that they accept lower-quality applicants who are more likely to turn into lower-quality doctors. In the long run, I expect this to hurt their reputation.
5. They've also eliminated the interview as a selection criterion, which means that you don't need any interpersonal skills to get in. Communication skills are an important part of the Australian medical curriculum... so if they accept people with lower base skills, they'll naturally have to lower the level at which they teach you to communicate.
6. They've been accepting an increasing number of international students, and it's very easy to get in with a mediocre MCAT score. With the new Oschner program, I think that their reputation in the US will deteriorate as they start to seem like just another offshore school. I think there's one primary reason why Australian schools are better than Caribbean schools (the other reasons offshoot from that primary reason)... in Australia, medical schools are nonprofit educational institutions whose purpose is to educate quality Australian doctors; in the Caribbean, medical schools are for-profit businesses whose purpose is to make money off of people who couldn't get into med school in the US and Canada. With the UQ-Oschner program, it's clear that their focus is shifting from the former to the latter.

 

[theunraveler]

While we're at the topic of medical school rankings....what do you guys/gals personally feel is at the top and which is at the bottom? How many graduate medical school is there in Australia?

 

[theunraveler]

theunraveler: The rankings you're talking about are the Times Higher Education Supplement, which ranks the schools for biomedicine. You have to consider the distinction between the field of "biomedicine" and the field of "medicine." Biomedicine focuses on the basic sciences, while medicine focuses on the clinical application of those sciences.

Point noted.

So, while UQ might be great for learning the basic sciences, their medical school has been deteriorating lately for several reasons:
1. Their class size has increased, which is important for several reasons (I'll mention them below).
2. They only have two clinical schools to accommodate a class of 550 students; USyd, for comparison's sake, has 6-7 clinical schools (depending on how you define "clinical school") to accommodate half as many students. On my clinical days, I go to the wards as part of a group of 5 students per tutor. And we have several different sessions - in essence, we have 3 tutors for those 5 students. Those three tutors don't teach any other students, so you really develop a good relationship with them and, conversely, they really give you personal attention.
3. They don't have lectures anymore. Their lectures have essentially turned into online readings, probably because they don't have the resources to accommodate 550 students in a lecture hall. I think most universities still have both (I know USyd does) - you can go to the lecture, and you can also get the notes and the lecture video online.
4. Because of the large class size, it's easier to get in. That means that they accept lower-quality applicants who are more likely to turn into lower-quality doctors. In the long run, I expect this to hurt their reputation.
5. They've also eliminated the interview as a selection criterion, which means that you don't need any interpersonal skills to get in. Communication skills are an important part of the Australian medical curriculum... so if they accept people with lower base skills, they'll naturally have to lower the level at which they teach you to communicate.
6. They've been accepting an increasing number of international students, and it's very easy to get in with a mediocre MCAT score. With the new Oschner program, I think that their reputation in the US will deteriorate as they start to seem like just another offshore school. I think there's one primary reason why Australian schools are better than Caribbean schools (the other reasons offshoot from that primary reason)... in Australia, medical schools are nonprofit educational institutions whose purpose is to educate quality Australian doctors; in the Caribbean, medical schools are for-profit businesses whose purpose is to make money off of people who couldn't get into med school in the US and Canada. With the UQ-Oschner program, it's clear that their focus is shifting from the former to the latter.

I personally disagree with point 4, while it may be true that the medical school is easier to get into. I somehow dont think a lower quality applicant will make a poor doctor if that person really has the drive to be a doctor compare with a scholar who is just in it for the money.

 

[redshifteffect]

Point noted.

I personally disagree with point 4, while it may be true that the medical school is easier to get into. I somehow dont think a lower quality applicant will make a poor doctor if that person really has the drive to be a doctor compare with a scholar who is just in it for the money.

I agree drive is important, but even with drive how can you know what you're missing until you compare yourself to a doctor from another educational institution?

Medicine isn't just studying or reading a book (unless you become a pathologist) in the clinical years, so having exposure to patients and experienced staff go a longer way towards making you a competent doctor then just pure knowledge.

I think when you have a high student to clinical experience ratio, the students will definitely suffer.

 

[redshifteffect]

Graduate medical schools are still fairly new, and while they are making headway I think you'll find that most of the top schools (though this is anecdotal) are still undergraduate institutions.

You have to understand that most of the top students in highschool go straight into medicine, and that many people who can't get into these schools then try to get into a graduate school. I realise this isn't the case for everyone, but in general this is the case.

So most of the students with the highest marks in highschool end up going to undergraduate medical institutions.

 

[shan564]

I personally disagree with point 4, while it may be true that the medical school is easier to get into. I somehow dont think a lower quality applicant will make a poor doctor if that person really has the drive to be a doctor compare with a scholar who is just in it for the money.

Of course, it won't always be true... but the GAMSAT is essentially an IQ test (with plenty of exceptions). The more intelligent people generally score better on the GAMSAT, and the more intelligent people also generally make better doctors.

That doesn't mean that the less intelligent people will make poor doctors, but it's hard to argue that better applicants don't make better doctors on average. Sure, there are plenty of exceptions, but things tend to average out when you talk about 550 people in every class.

The "drive" is probably more important, but the lack of an interview means that UQ also doesn't consider drive as much for their admissions. Also, odds are that drive will be the same from school to school.

 

[jaketheory]

As for Griffith, I personally wouldn't want to go to a school where I would be amongst the first graduating class.

i've actually already ruled out Griffith. Because it is such a new school, they are not approved by the medical board of california. i may not end up going back to the US, but i dont want to limit my options. JCU and ANU are the oldest of the newer schools but neither are CA approved. JCU has now been 10 years. Also, Griffith cant distribute US loans which would make financing my studies hard. though, if i dont get in to a school that has US loans the first year i apply, i will have enough in savings to be content with going to a school that doesnt offer them.

 

[jaketheory]

While we're at the topic of medical school rankings....what do you guys/gals personally feel is at the top and which is at the bottom? How many graduate medical school is there in Australia?

there are 12 grad entry med schools. look up the ACER grad medicine admissions guide for a description of each of them.

 

[thinker]

so i don't want to overkill this conversation, but which university is the best medical school in terms of clinical exposure and quality of education? UQ sounds pretty crappy for what you guys are saying. I'm definitely not going anymore (not that i can get the money anyways lol)

 

[redshifteffect]

Thinker,

This is anecdotal, so keep that in mind. I've had excellent experiences with and heard pretty positive things about USyd and Flinders grads. The COL in Adelaide is a lot cheaper so if it were me I'd go for Flinders (all other things being equal).

 

[shan564]

I don't have any firsthand experience with the other universities, but I can say that I've been very impressed by USyd's curriculum (and I'm not one to be easily impressed). I was baffled by the efficiency with which the integrate the lectures, the PBLs, and the clinical days into a complex curriculum. Instead of sticking us in traditional classes, they give us a new theme each week and completely immerse us - you'd have to be a total idiot not to learn. In the past, I've always been a fairly independent learner, thinking that it doesn't really matter what the curriculum is... but in this program, it seems like they just inject the information into my brain whether I like it or not.

I'm sure that Flinders is just as good. Still, a big reason why I chose Sydney is because of name recognition. Wherever you go in the world, everybody will recognize the name "University of Sydney", even if they're not familiar with the university. Also, Sydney is a vibrant and cosmopolitan city... but you pay a premium for it.

 

[JanikeyDoc]

i've actually already ruled out Griffith. Because it is such a new school, they are not approved by the medical board of california. i may not end up going back to the US, but i dont want to limit my options. JCU and ANU are the oldest of the newer schools but neither are CA approved. JCU has now been 10 years. Also, Griffith cant distribute US loans which would make financing my studies hard. though, if i dont get in to a school that has US loans the first year i apply, i will have enough in savings to be content with going to a school that doesnt offer them.

Certain US states are very picky about foreign schools, go to the most established medical school to which you can get admission if you do plan to work outside of Australia.

Loans can be very tricky for new schools as well.

Personally from speaking to a lot of US PDs, in a few years it will be extremely difficult for IMGs to match into programs in the US.

 

[theunraveler]

Is it possible to study part time MBBS? I understand most graduate medical school is full time, what I mean is by not enrolling in some courses for that year. For instance my course, vet science is a full time course but there are some single moms and easily stressed out students who choose not to enrol in certain courses that year and in doing so, they are doing it part time...

For instance in UQ vet science 3rd year first semester has 3 subjects; VETS3011, VETS3012, VETS3010. I know someone who is enroled in just one subject, and another in just 2 subject

 

[Theillestill]

I've never heard of a part time MBBS course. That is unless you're talking about a carribean one.

 

[jaketheory]

according to the USyd curriculum review as published in the MJA, the final 2 years of the USydMP can be studies part time.

source: http://www.mja.com.au/public/issues/188_08_210408/gou10105_fm.html#0_i1091886

 

[theunraveler]

Actually when I meant part-time I mean like taking less subjects than most students normally would. For instance at UQ, its normally 4 subjects of 2 credits each semester, some of my peers who are single mom or have work commitments take only 2 or 3 subjects for vet science.

So I was just wondering if I could do the same for Medicine

 

[jaketheory]

Actually when I meant part-time I mean like taking less subjects than most students normally would. For instance at UQ, its normally 4 subjects of 2 credits each semester, some of my peers who are single mom or have work commitments take only 2 or 3 subjects for vet science.

So I was just wondering if I could do the same for Medicine

yeah, but a lot of the courses are structured so that you only actually enroll in one or 2 subjects per semester.