How safe is the Student doctor network?

sallyjoe

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    How safe is the Student doctor network? 99% of what’s on here will not bother anybody, but when we discuss bad groups and bad AMCs is this a safe forum? Please see the article below from AVweb about a Google hosted forum where Google has decided to roll over and not fight for the rights of its users by giving up their identity when threatened by a lawsuit. The Anesthesia forum recently has had a provocative thread about Sheridan. “Is Sheridan Healthcare really Satan?” If Sheridan complains and sues, will the Student doctor network supply IP addresses of the commenter’s or fight for our 1st amendment right to free speech. Many blogs destroy the IP information every 30 to 60 days thus given how slow our legal system is you might have little to worry about if that was the policy at the SDN.

    Other that buying a new laptop every 30days and cruising around town surfing via other peoples WIFI connection, anyone have some practical advice about surfing anonymously.

    from; http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/1099-full.html#197710

    “Eclipse Seeks To Reveal Critics' Names
    A subpoena issued by a California court last week in response to a request by Eclipse Aviation seeks to obtain the names of about 28 people who have posted anonymous comments on the Eclipse Aviation Critic NG blog. The blog, hosted by Shane Price of Dublin, Ireland, is the "next generation" of the original Eclipse critic blog, which was started by Stan Blankenship in 2006 but stopped publishing earlier this year. The subpoena commands Google, which hosts the NG blog, to supply IP addresses of the commenters. "We're not trying to suppress dissension or criticism," Eclipse CEO Vern Raburn told the Albuquerque Journal. "We're just trying to find out where it's coming from." Raburn said he wants to know if any of the posters are Eclipse employees or others who are legally bound by non-disclosure agreements. In a letter posted on the NG blog, Google says it will release the identifying information to Eclipse unless the posters object in court; several of the blog contributors have said on the blog site they will pursue such an action. Price wrote online that several of the blog aliases listed in the subpoena had never posted on his blog. "It seems to be very out of date," he wrote, "and I'm actually feeling left out, as they didn't include me."
    The subpoena allows the bloggers until May 9 to respond.”
     

    coprolalia

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      Not even remotely the same issue. I have no fiduciary responsibility to Sheridan Healthcare, I'm not an employee, I have signed no agreement with them, and I owe them (and they owe me) nothing. I asked a question, and I invited opinion. That's fully protected by First Amendment rights.

      Here's another one:

      I think Coca Cola sucks. No one should buy it.

      You think Coke's gonna come after me for saying that? :laugh:

      -copro
       
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      coprolalia

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        On further thought, I think Google should withold the IP addresses and the ACLU should take that case. If no corporate secrets or information that isn't already publicly known was divulged, then there is no reason why Google should give away the identity of those bloggers. If there was nothing libelous written, then they don't have a case to demand removal of anonymity.

        This is a case where that particular corporation is being a bunch of crybabies for not stomaching criticism, instead of perhaps working to fix that perception internally.

        What's next? We going to send the FBI to investigate something negative written on a bathroom wall? No more anonymous comments on the Op Ed page in newspapers?

        Get over it, Eclipse Aviation. You're trying to set a bad precedent. Fix your problems internally, and the criticism won't be an issue.

        -copro
         

        sallyjoe

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          Not even remotely the same issue. I have no fiduciary responsibility to Sheridan Healthcare, I'm not an employee, I have signed no agreement with them, and I owe them (and they owe me) nothing. I asked a question, and I invited opinion. That's fully protected by First Amendment rights.

          Here's another one:

          I think Coca Cola sucks. No one should buy it.

          You think Coke's gonna come after me for saying that? :laugh:

          -copro

          I am not picking on anyone just used that as a recent example. The Student doctor network is a great resource; I am just asking the question, which given Google’s recent short sighted action in response to a lawsuit to identify the contributors to what they thought was an anonymous blog. Can we count on the Student doctor network stand up for free speech, and what steps are they talking to prevent this type of issue from hurting the contributors to the Student doctor network forums.


          Eclipse Aviation, may claim that that are looking for employees that are bound by a confidentiality agreement, but their real motive is unknown, but it may be to silence any dissent, close down the forum and identify any one who has said anything critical of Eclipse Aviation for further legal action.
           

          coprolalia

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            If you were an executive at another soda firm (roughly analagous to being an anesthesiologist for another group), they might...

            Wrong. Only if I worked for Coca-Cola and I had specifically signed a non-disclosure agreement as part of my contract of employment that forbade me from speaking negatively about the company in any way, shape, or form.

            What Eclipse Aviation is doing is going on a fishing expedition. The caselaw, to date, has been clear in backing-up the rights of individuals to post freely and anonymously on the Internet. Eclipse does NOT have the right to those IP addresses, unless a specific corporate agreement was breached in one of those posts (a company secret was divulged, etc.), and then they only maybe have the right to the IP address that posted that single post, not all of them. What Google is doing is producing the ultimate Catch-22: they'll refuse to give the IP address only if those posters show up in court to protest, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of not giving the IP addresses.

            I think the ACLU should take this case. It's one of the few things that the ACLU should actually pursue (instead of a lot of the crap that they champion).

            As an aside, I happen to know the personal identities of several posters on this forum. And, I will defend their right to come here and speak their mind freely. And, they should be allowed to, or there's no purpose in having a forum. They only cross the line, in my book, if they threaten to do harm to another individual, or say something here that intentionally breaks the law. The latter is pretty damn hard to do.

            -copro
             

            coprolalia

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              Eclipse Aviation, may claim that that are looking for employees that are bound by a confidentiality agreement, but their real motive is unknown, but it may be to silence any dissent, close down the forum and identify any one who has said anything critical of Eclipse Aviation for further legal action.

              There motive is not unknown. You got it right in your last sentence. That's precisely their intent. More bullying.

              -copro
               

              coprolalia

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                I am just asking the question, which given Google's recent short sighted action in response to a lawsuit to identify the contributors to what they thought was an anonymous blog. Can we count on the Student doctor network stand up for free speech...

                Hypothetically? I think they'd cave if presented with a subpoena. If I've learned one thing in residency so far it's that the majority of people involved in healthcare generally lack courage and, when given the chance, will gladly point the finger at someone else if it shifts blame from them.

                -copro
                 

                Surfer

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                  Didn't noyac say he refused to hire somebody because of his/her comments here on SDN? What a prick. How does he even know he had the right person? That sounds like something that could get him in big trouble--basing a hiring decision off comments allegedly made on an anonymous message board? Wow.
                   

                  coprolalia

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                    Didn't Mil say he refused to hire somebody because of his/her comments here on SDN? What a prick. How does he even know he had the right person? That sounds like something that could get him in big trouble--basing a hiring decision off comments allegedly made on an anonymous message board? Wow.

                    It was actually Noyac, and some of us know who he is in the real world. But, I defend his right to make a hiring decision on whatever information he gets. This is one area where bloggers and forum posters need to be wary. You are responsible for what you say on the Internet, and if that information is found out and is traceable back to a person then the person who posted it only has himself/herself to blame.

                    If that makes Noyac a prick... well, then most of corporate America are a bunch of pricks. You be the judge on that one. Personally, I'd do the same thing.

                    -copro
                     

                    Surfer

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                      No disrespect to Noyac. I like his comments on here and do not know him. I just think it's presumptuous to base a hire or not hire on an anonymous message board, a place where people feel free to rant and vent and let out steam in a safe environment. Anybody who takes this place too seriously needs a vacation.
                       

                      psychbender

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                        Yeah I think that's weak. Very weak. If he has concerns about those comments he should bring it up and give the person a chance to defend themselves. He should worry less about what somebody is purportedly saying on an ANONYMOUS message board, and worry more about what type of employee they will be.

                        It's one thing if somebody is posting pictures of themself topless and drunk on myspace, its quite another to say something controversial on a message board. Some people just say stuff to vent and it has no bearing on what type of employee they would be. I see that position as incredibly arrogant, and I would not want to work for that type of boss.

                        Except that what someone says on an anonymous message board does reflect on what type of employee they will be. We are, at all times, accountable for our every action. Think of it like this: you're out on the interview trail for your residency, and decide to go out with some of the other students to a nearby bar. You knock back a few, and start expressing some opinions on certain kinds of people (how much you hate CRNAs/FMGs/DOs/female doctors/etc). Well, unbeknownst to you, the program director for that residency is sitting nearby and overhears your little rant. There are several CRNAs/FMGs/DOs/female doctors/etc in or affiliated with the program, and he can see that there will likely be a problem if you have to regularly work with them. Do you think he would want to give one of his slots to such a troublemaker? You had no way of knowing you'd be overheard at that bar...you thought you were anonymous. Yet that program director was able to infer who you were, and catch you when you expressing your actual opinions. Is he to just ignore what you said, and go "nah, he was probably just venting a little; I'm sure he meant nothing of it, and is a perfectly reasonable person who would never stir up any trouble?"

                        Note: I am not familiar with this alleged incident involving Noyac's hiring practices and SDN, just posting how your stance on the matter is weak.
                         

                        jetproppilot

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                          Except that what someone says on an anonymous message board does reflect on what type of employee they will be. We are, at all times, accountable for our every action. Think of it like this: you're out on the interview trail for your residency, and decide to go out with some of the other students to a nearby bar. You knock back a few, and start expressing some opinions on certain kinds of people (how much you hate CRNAs/FMGs/DOs/female doctors/etc). Well, unbeknownst to you, the program director for that residency is sitting nearby and overhears your little rant. There are several CRNAs/FMGs/DOs/female doctors/etc in or affiliated with the program, and he can see that there will likely be a problem if you have to regularly work with them. Do you think he would want to give one of his slots to such a troublemaker? You had no way of knowing you'd be overheard at that bar...you thought you were anonymous. Yet that program director was able to infer who you were, and catch you when you expressing your actual opinions. Is he to just ignore what you said, and go "nah, he was probably just venting a little; I'm sure he meant nothing of it, and is a perfectly reasonable person who would never stir up any trouble?"

                          Note: I am not familiar with this alleged incident involving Noyac's hiring practices and SDN, just posting how your stance on the matter is weak.

                          Yep. :thumbup:
                           
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                          Gern Blansten

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                            Except that what someone says on an anonymous message board does reflect on what type of employee they will be. We are, at all times, accountable for our every action. Think of it like this: you're out on the interview trail for your residency, and decide to go out with some of the other students to a nearby bar. You knock back a few, and start expressing some opinions on certain kinds of people (how much you hate CRNAs/FMGs/DOs/female doctors/etc). Well, unbeknownst to you, the program director for that residency is sitting nearby and overhears your little rant. There are several CRNAs/FMGs/DOs/female doctors/etc in or affiliated with the program, and he can see that there will likely be a problem if you have to regularly work with them. Do you think he would want to give one of his slots to such a troublemaker? You had no way of knowing you'd be overheard at that bar...you thought you were anonymous. Yet that program director was able to infer who you were, and catch you when you expressing your actual opinions. Is he to just ignore what you said, and go "nah, he was probably just venting a little; I'm sure he meant nothing of it, and is a perfectly reasonable person who would never stir up any trouble?"

                            Note: I am not familiar with this alleged incident involving Noyac's hiring practices and SDN, just posting how your stance on the matter is weak.

                            Great analogy. How a person acts when they think no one is watching is very telling. Noyac would not be hiring someone to be his employee. He would be hiring someone to be partner in his group. The one who will be a reflection of how his entire group will be perceived. The one who will be taking care of him or his family if they need anesthesia. Partners need to be chosen carefully just as residents do. I would have no problem deciding not to hire someone if I knew that they treated others poorly. People don't realize sometimes that it doesn't pay to be an a**hole. We had an applicant who treated the staff at the hotel we paid for like ****. Guess what. We knew those people and they called us to let us know of his antics. We don't need people like that in our group. So, if that offends someone, they should examine how they treat others and place the blame where it should really lie. During an interview, we have very few ways to evaluate people and try and guess how they will be as a coworker. Even real jerks can put on a facade for a few hours.
                             

                            Surfer

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                              those are completely different scenarios. When you are in public, you're in public. When you're on an anonymous message board you can't even guarantee it is who you think it is. What if it was his/her roommate saying those things? What if it was somebody else in the same residency? You have no way of knowing for sure unless you bring up those issues in the interview. Some people like to stir the pot on message boards because people like Noyac take them so seriously. It's a stupid message board. Don't take yourselves so seriously.

                              A bar and a hotel are different places entirely, and how you act in PUBLIC is not comparable to a pseudonym on the stupid internet.
                               

                              pd4emergence

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                                I try not to say anything on here that I wouldn't put my name on. I didn't find this board until about a year ago and have the benefit of finding it after residency. There were times during residency that I probably would have posted things I would not like to put my name on. I may be posting things now that later I would like to keep anonymous but I do try to remember that nothing is anonymous. People reading my posts probably could figure out who I am especially if they knew anything about me. I try to keep this in mind.
                                 

                                militarymd

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                                  Didn't noyac say he refused to hire somebody because of his/her comments here on SDN? What a prick. How does he even know he had the right person? That sounds like something that could get him in big trouble--basing a hiring decision off comments allegedly made on an anonymous message board? Wow.

                                  No disrespect to Noyac. I like his comments on here and do not know him. I just think it's presumptuous to base a hire or not hire on an anonymous message board, a place where people feel free to rant and vent and let out steam in a safe environment. Anybody who takes this place too seriously needs a vacation.


                                  :laugh: ...what do you call people that you plan on disrespecting.
                                   

                                  psychbender

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                                    those are completely different scenarios. When you are in public, you're in public. When you're on an anonymous message board you can't even guarantee it is who you think it is. What if it was his/her roommate saying those things? What if it was somebody else in the same residency? You have no way of knowing for sure unless you bring up those issues in the interview. Some people like to stir the pot on message boards because people like Noyac take them so seriously. It's a stupid message board. Don't take yourselves so seriously.

                                    A bar and a hotel are different places entirely, and how you act in PUBLIC is not comparable to a pseudonym on the stupid internet.

                                    Except that once you type something, and hit 'submit,' it becomes public. If you were sitting at home and talking to a friend, then it would be private...but you're not. We're all posting on this message board, which can be read by anyone with a computer and internet connection. This board also logs all posts by any given person, leaving a very public record of anything you have said. So, if someone is on a board such as this, and badmouths some group, or says something questionable, that remains part of the record. If said person later reveals some information about him/herself that allows reasonable identification, then those previous statements come back and rest firmly on his/her shoulders, rather than those of a pseudonym.

                                    Additionally, as illustrated earlier in this thread, you can't always change what you wrote. You went back and edited a post that you made, but not before I quoted it in my response. Since I hit the 'quote' button before you finished your edit, your initial words remain part of the public record. That's the perilous thing with blogs, emails, and message boards; there's no recalling messages once they've been sent.

                                    Here's an example of "anonymous" blogging that came back to bite a doctor in the ***.
                                    http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/05/31/blogger_unmasked_court_case_upended/
                                     

                                    bigdan

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                                      How a person acts when they think no one is watching is very telling.

                                      People don't realize sometimes that it doesn't pay to be an a**hole.

                                      Even real jerks can put on a facade for a few hours.

                                      Gern-

                                      In your short paragraph, you've covered the "Basics of Acting Like an Adult". It's worth putting this into initial medical school orientation guides, and every orientation related activity thereafter.

                                      VERY well said.

                                      dc
                                       

                                      snowman8

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                                        I agree if you are going to do an RSI or if you just decide to use sux instead of a nondepolaring agent, then push the Sux and Propofol together for optimal conditions (If you anticipate a easy mask/intubation). On the other hand I would never push a nondepolarizer without being able to mask. I would also never push Sux if I had suspicions of difficulty with masking. Obvioulsy this depends on the urgency of the case.
                                         

                                        Gern Blansten

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                                          Here's an example of "anonymous" blogging that came back to bite a doctor in the ***.
                                          http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/05/31/blogger_unmasked_court_case_upended/

                                          That is a scary case and one we should all learn from. There was a case described here about 1 year ago that I would say had a 99% chance of ending up in a lawyers lap. The case and the surgeon's and hospital's screw ups were laid out in graphic detail. It was a very rare condition and scenario and would have been easily identifiable by anyone doing an internet search(where this forum's content would most likely show up as a "hit" on google). The other piece to this was that the poster's blog name is his real name and his signature at the bottom of each post contained his medical school name, residency program, and years of graduation/participation for each of those locations.
                                          It would have taken about 2 seconds to find the case description and print it off. I advised him by PM to get the thread deleted for his own sake. The moderators were kind enough to do that.
                                          I think it is great that we have good clinical discussions on here, but it is probably best to leave out (or make ambiguous) some of the identifying details (ie, say elderly instead of exact age). It seems like we are living with Big Brother these days (GPS tracking, video surveillance, attorneys scouring the blogs). I miss the good old days.
                                           

                                          Surfer

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                                            Additionally, as illustrated earlier in this thread, you can't always change what you wrote. You went back and edited a post that you made, but not before I quoted it in my response. Since I hit the 'quote' button before you finished your edit, your initial words remain part of the public record. That's the perilous thing with blogs, emails, and message boards; there's no recalling messages once they've been sent.

                                            I love Hillary Clinton and hope she turns hillarycare into a reality for this once great country!

                                            You think because you quote somebody it means anything? This is an internet message board! You are all proving my point that people take this place WAY TOO SERIOUSLY! Wow, some of you need to get outside a little more.
                                             

                                            Bertelman

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                                              I love Hillary Clinton and hope she turns hillarycare into a reality for this once great country!

                                              :laugh:

                                              You think because you quote somebody it means anything? This is an internet message board! You are all proving my point that people take this place WAY TOO SERIOUSLY! Wow, some of you need to get outside a little more.


                                              Well-played.
                                               

                                              Surfer

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                                                Not to hijack this thread, speaking of getting outside a little more: A swimmer was attacked by a shark in San Diego this morning while training with a group of triathletes.

                                                Scary stuff. Reportedly the shark took off both his legs.
                                                 

                                                Gern Blansten

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                                                  Not to hijack this thread, speaking of getting outside a little more: A swimmer was attacked by a shark in San Diego this morning while training with a group of triathletes.

                                                  Scary stuff. Reportedly the shark took off both his legs.

                                                  Exercise in its various forms can be very dangerous. I gave it up years ago.
                                                   

                                                  psychbender

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                                                    You think because you quote somebody it means anything? This is an internet message board! You are all proving my point that people take this place WAY TOO SERIOUSLY! Wow, some of you need to get outside a little more.

                                                    Touche.

                                                    However, the point still stands.
                                                     

                                                    Winged Scapula

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                                                      RE: "Safety of SDN"

                                                      SDN has had a number of legal challenges from several sources attempting to claim that SDN has a duty to monitor all opinions and statements presented as fact on its Forums. None of these have any legal basis and SDN has never been successfully sued in the case of a poster making a statement such as "United Healthcare Sucks" (my real opinion) nor have we provided IP or other identifying information in these situations.

                                                      SDN, as a private site, can decided what content is permissible here and we try to protect user's rights to post opinion on the boards. As staff, we may be dictators or Nazi's (choose your adjective), but we have no duty to Coca Cola or Sheridan.

                                                      Where we can't protect you is if you post copywritten material on SDN. SDN has been subpoenaed in these cases and our legal counsel advises us to comply.
                                                       

                                                      supercut

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                                                        I saw a piece on the news not to long ago saying that Google keep record of all searches done indefinetly. Also emails. AOL keeps members emails for a long time. We would do well to regard nothing we do on the net as private, and if somebody wants to find out and make an issue of any particular topic, they will.
                                                         

                                                        epidural man

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                                                          How safe is the Student doctor network?


                                                          I find it a safe place to come to, to relax and enjoy atmosphere - except my ego has taken a serious beating once or twice. Your ego is definitely not safe. The senior posters can really have a go at ya once in a while. :oops:

                                                          It's all good though........:D
                                                           

                                                          coprolalia

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                                                            RE: "Safety of SDN"

                                                            SDN has had a number of legal challenges from several sources attempting to claim that SDN has a duty to monitor all opinions and statements presented as fact on its Forums. None of these have any legal basis and SDN has never been successfully sued in the case of a poster making a statement such as "United Healthcare Sucks" (my real opinion) nor have we provided IP or other identifying information in these situations.

                                                            SDN, as a private site, can decided what content is permissible here and we try to protect user's rights to post opinion on the boards. As staff, we may be dictators or Nazi's (choose your adjective), but we have no duty to Coca Cola or Sheridan.

                                                            Where we can't protect you is if you post copywritten material on SDN. SDN has been subpoenaed in these cases and our legal counsel advises us to comply.

                                                            Thank you for posting this. I take back what I said above, since you are speaking candidly and, taken at face value, in a trustworthy and believable manner.

                                                            But, I don't imagine that SDN has gotten into any real trouble yet.... yet.

                                                            :scared:

                                                            -copro
                                                             
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