How to not get into med school with a 40 MCAT

[Fastrada]

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Doesn't that severely drain (financially) those who are applying DO only?

Medical schools are a monopoly- they protect their self-interests first

 

[Spinach Dip]

FWIW, I think quotas are stupid.

I just want schools to consider my application without needing me to shell out a couple grand (that I dont have).

 

[Affiche]

Quotas are an awful idea because then you end up letting in people who shouldn't be let in just to fulfill a quota. A disadvantaged applicant isn't any more helpful to a disadvantaged community if that applicant doesn't have the credentials to make it through medical school anyway.

This idea that medical schools can somehow resolve the education system's issue of selection against the poor is a naive one; it's a multifaceted issue that needs to be dealt with in early education through high school.

 

[Spinach Dip]

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/746086_4
Unfortunately, one group that did not benefit from this expansion was students of lower socioeconomic status (SES). In 1971, 27% of students came from families in the lowest two quintiles (lowest 40%) of household incomes nationally.[6] By 1987, this important segment of medical school enrollees had dropped to 15%, and, by 2004, it was only 10%.[34] Similarly, in 1974, 66% of students came from the top two quintiles (top 40%) of household incomes, but these percentages increased to 70% in 1987 and to 75% by 2004.[7,34]

I am quoting this post because it deserves to be quoted. 👍

 

[GrapesofRath]

Having physicians from low SES backgrounds is incredibly important but not because they connect better with patients. I think it's important because these physicians are more likely to work in disadvantaged communities which are largely underserved.

I mean there have been studies found for this to be the case with URMs more likely to serve in primary care and in positions where they serve lots of URMs but I haven't seen any studies that have looked at whether lower SES doctors are more likely to target service towards disadvantaged communities. It's easy to think that, but it's another to actually have it documented; that's what research really is. If there is a study that shows it, I'd love to see it and be the first to say I was wrong then.

The thing with the URMs is many of them a) go to schools like HBMC's that specifically are made to target service towards the less fortunate b) a fair share got in with lower stats than most MD matriculants and hence are probably more likely to have lower board scores, the type that wouldn't lend them to going into the most competitive specialties even if that was their primary choice. If you have lower SES MD students who got in with stats along the lines of a median MD matriculant and not clearly below that like of many of URMs, well they are probably more likely to have higher board scores and more opportunities to specialize in other areas. That opportunity to specialize and go in more competitive fields can be pretty damn tempting to many no matter how much we might think otherwise. Likewise, many don't go to schools like HBMC's where a big part of the mission is explicitly to serve the less fortunate which can obviously bias them and shape their goals in medicine.

 

[Affiche]

1) applying for financial aid is so hard and difficult. My parents never qualified so I never had to care, but I saw the reams of paper. I don't think I would have done it/ Mayhaps we could simplify the code

2) Counting parents who are not in their kids life for financial aid. I mean, my parents have been pretty awesome and involved. But Spinach's dad per example has run off. it doesn't make sense he should still have to put his dad on his medical school apps. Some parents are abusive, and are not living with the kid. There most be some way to ascertain if a parent is actually supporting his kid


3) More pipeline programs that don't end after one summer, but actually continue throughout four years with mentorship, support and advice.

4) Having free apps for 5 or so schools, more student host programs. I mean apps are so expensive!

5) having a quota etc-20% of our spots must be filled by people from lower SES classes.

1. FAFSA is really, really easy to fill out. If you aren't willing to figure out how to fill out basic paperwork to advocate for yourself then you don't deserve the assistance.
2. There is already a protocol in place to account for estranged parents.
3. Requires money and I'm not super convinced that pipeline programs actually work or are worth the resources they eat up.
4. Free applications hardly solves anything. We already have FAP to support the poorest applicants, and adding free applications for everyone will likely just increase the number of applications people throw at schools they have no business applying to. The real solution would be to convince AAMC to not be so stingy with FAP, but then you have FAP running out early because it's covering lower-middle class instead of just lower-class.
5. quotas are terrible for reasons already stated in this thread.

 

[mehc012]

For a lower SES doctor and lower SES patient, how is the patient to know the doctor is lower SES? And more importantly does the doctor being lower SES matter to that patient?

Trust me, you can tell when someone has never even considered the ramifications of actually being poor, with no backup, in their entire life. You can tell when someone is silently judging you for your life and choices even as they help you, as if they might not make similar ones if they were in your shoes. And it makes a huge difference when your doctor anticipates some of the difficulties you will have and tries to take that into consideration, without condescending or treating you like dirt in the process.

Some of the **** I used to hear from the PAs and even some docs where I worked, judging the crap outta their patients, was downright disturbing. Yeah, I'm sure they were more professional in the room, but you can't be that vitriolic and not have some of it come across on some level. Probably 9/10 times people are simply neutral, but I wouldn't underestimate the effect having someone who actually *gets it* can have, especially if there are also some who are worse than neutral, like where I worked.

 

[Mad Jack]

But you too probably have a setup others have only ever dreamed about too, right?

then , according to your quote, Does that mean no one should ever complain?
I have family in another country who would kill to get to America, so should no Americans ever complain about anything?

Should you complain and not try to improve your situation? : No

but within reason yeah, I have some sympathy for Spinach, I guess.

I totally feel bad for SD. I'm not saying we shouldn't. The big reason I asked my prior question was to get a feel for what his resources were for the rest of the application process, so that we could optimally use the resources he hoped to have available later right now so that he might be able to gain a few interviews, and then we could plan for how he might approach the interview trail later.

 

[Affiche]

I mean there have been studies found for this to be the case with URMs more likely to serve in primary care and in positions where they serve lots of URMs but I haven't seen any studies that have looked at whether lower SES doctors are more likely to target service towards disadvantaged communities. It's easy to think that, but it's another to actually have it documented; that's what research really is. If there is a study that shows it, I'd love to see it and be the first to say I was wrong then.

Dude, I work full-time in research lol you don't need to tell me what research is.
Rabinowitz and Paynter identified four predictors of physicians providing care for the underserved: being a member of an ethnic or minority group, participating in NHSC, having a strong interest in serving the underserved before medical school and growing up in an underserved area.

Edit: but I do agree that growing up with a low SES does make it easier to relate to low SES patients, and I have seen those that have always been privileged really struggle to relate to their low SES patients.

 

[Spinach Dip]

Trust me, you can tell when someone has never even considered the ramifications of actually being poor, with no backup, in their entire life. You can tell when someone is silently judging you for your life and choices even as they help you, as if they might not make similar ones if they were in your shoes. And it makes a huge difference when your doctor anticipates some of the difficulties you will have and tries to take that into consideration, without condescending or treating you like dirt in the process.

Some of the **** I used to hear from the PAs and even some docs where I worked, judging the crap outta their patients, was downright disturbing. Yeah, I'm sure they were more professional in the room, but you can't be that vitriolic and not have some of it come across on some level. Probably 9/10 times people are simply neutral, but I wouldn't underestimate the effect having someone who actually *gets it* can have, especially if there are also some who are worse than neutral, like where I worked.

I theory I have heard (tossed around casually) is that LOW-SES students are focused primarily on becoming a doctor and practicing, while those from HIGH-SES backgrounds are more interested in the prestige of the position.

This theory further states that the reason there is a surplus of students who want to be a dermatologist in New York (and a corresponding shortage of those who want to be obstetricians in Idaho) is because the gatekeepers (med schools) have for decades been selecting for factors which are more common in the HIGH-SES population.

It is an interesting theory, and one I would like to see explored in greater depth.

 

[Affiche]

This theory further states that the reason there is a surplus of students who want to be a dermatologist in New York (and a corresponding shortage of those who want to be obstetricians in Idaho) is because the gatekeepers (med schools) have for decades been selecting for factors which are more common in the HIGH-SES population.

It is an interesting theory, and one I would like to see explored in greater depth.

Don't mission-based medical schools do just the opposite though?
And with the distribution issue of physicians, it seems like if anything medical schools are selecting for those who want to practice in primary care now.

 

[Spinach Dip]

4. Free applications hardly solves anything. We already have FAP to support the poorest applicants, and adding free applications for everyone will likely just increase the number of applications people throw at schools they have no business applying to. The real solution would be to convince AAMC to not be so stingy with FAP, but then you have FAP running out early because it's covering lower-middle class instead of just lower-class.

Disagree.

The worst thing that can possibly happen after allowing applicants a number of free applications (say, 10) is that the number of students applying to some schools will increase...WHICH IS EXACTLY THE GOAL OF SUCH A PROGRAM.

So schools might need to hire an extra intern or 2 to screen the applications and remove those which stand no chance of entry. How horrible.

 

[Affiche]

Disagree.

The worst thing that can possibly happen after allowing applicants a number of free applications (say, 10) is that the number of students applying to some schools will increase...WHICH IS EXACTLY THE GOAL OF SUCH A PROGRAM.

So schools might need to hire an extra intern or 2 to screen the applications and remove those which stand no chance of entry. How horrible.

The goal of the program is to make applying to medical school more affordable for those who can't afford it, not to increase the total number of applications to each school. The issue with giving everybody free applications is that you run the risk of the non-disadvantaged applicants increasing the number of applications they send out, especially to schools beyond their reach, because why the hell not? It would create more unnecessary work for schools, costing them more money (possibly raising app fees for applications past the 10th) and delaying the entire process. A better solution, imho, would be to make fee assistance more accessible to the lower-middle class. I'm sorry that you're having a hard time affording applications but I don't believe the solution is to make this process a free-for-all.

 

[LizzyM]

Doesn't that severely drain (financially) those who are applying DO only?

Pay the non-refundable deposit on the first school that makes you an offer (thus rewarding the schools that are earliest in making offers) or gamble that you'll get a better offer later and don't want to take the "bird in hand". If you matriculate at the first school that makes an offer and pay no other deposits, its all good. If you want to have choices among the DO schools that make you offers, it is going to cost you thousands in non-refundable deposits. It doesn't have to be financially draining but it can be.

 

[Silence in ER]

Having physicians from low SES backgrounds is incredibly important but not because they connect better with patients. I think it's important because these physicians are more likely to work in disadvantaged communities which are largely underserved.

I agree and also pointed that out. Also, low ses will catch a lot of diverse people students too.

 

[Silence in ER]

Quotas are an awful idea because then you end up letting in people who shouldn't be let in just to fulfill a quota. A disadvantaged applicant isn't any more helpful to a disadvantaged community if that applicant doesn't have the credentials to make it through medical school anyway.

This idea that medical schools can somehow resolve the education system's issue of selection against the poor is a naive one; it's a multifaceted issue that needs to be dealt with in early education through high school.

I think we should also provide resources to help students from lower SES background successfully finish medical school More tutors, earlier start times, heavier mentoring, see some of the hbcu's like Xavier.

Why can't we both help disadvantaged applicants and fix our education system?

 

[Silence in ER]

I totally feel bad for SD. I'm not saying we shouldn't. The big reason I asked my prior question was to get a feel for what his resources were for the rest of the application process, so that we could optimally use the resources he hoped to have available later right now so that he might be able to gain a few interviews, and then we could plan for how he might approach the interview trail later.

Oh, Mad Jack, that was a response to Affiche, not you. I don't think you've said anything I've vehemently disagreed with in this entire thread.

 

[Mad Jack]

Pay the non-refundable deposit on the first school that makes you an offer (thus rewarding the schools that are earliest in making offers) or gamble that you'll get a better offer later and don't want to take the "bird in hand". If you matriculate at the first school that makes an offer and pay no other deposits, its all good. If you want to have choices among the DO schools that make you offers, it is going to cost you thousands in non-refundable deposits. It doesn't have to be financially draining but it can be.

I ended up in that boat. Lost $3,500 to non-refundable deposits because I didn't have enough faith in myself.

 

[Affiche]

I think we should also provide resources to help students from lower SES background successfully finish medical school More tutors, earlier start times, heavier mentoring, see some of the hbcu's like Xavier.

Why can't we both help disadvantaged applicants and fix our education system?

There already is tutoring in medical schools and so much mentoring that it bugs me. There are also programs like MSU's ABLE to help disadvantaged students prepare for medical school. Honestly it seems like you just aren't familiar with all the resources already offered and you're blaming the system for reasons that you're struggling to support. Besides, getting through medical school isn't the issue, it's getting into it. Look at graduation rates for med schools. Once you're in they do pretty much everything possible to get you through. We aren't talking about undergrad here.

The education system does need to be fixed but again, it's not the responsibility of medical schools to fix it. The education system is a hugely complex issue and I'm not sure that you fully grasp that, no offense.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Dude, I work full-time in research lol you don't need to tell me what research is.
Rabinowitz and Paynter identified four predictors of physicians providing care for the underserved: being a member of an ethnic or minority group, participating in NHSC, having a strong interest in serving the underserved before medical school and growing up in an underserved area.

Edit: but I do agree that growing up with a low SES does make it easier to relate to low SES patients, and I have seen those that have always been privileged really struggle to relate to their low SES patients.

Yeah I'm from PA so I've heard about the PSAP program which the paper you're talking about focuses on. The thing is this is a specific program that is trying to actively recruit people up front to practice family medicine. This isn't like most med schools or medical education programs. So while a program that specifically really tries to actively recruit a small sample size of people to do family medicine and provides tons of incentives in their program to help almost "persuade" and guide the people in the program into family medicine, what about the vast majority of medical educations that don't do this? Most med schools even that have a mission statement for primary care, aren't going to actively go out of there way to provide these many opportunities for family care exposure and family care exposure only.

Also on top of that, here's the other key thing; this paper is talking mostly about people from rural backgrounds. That's different from low SES. The are many people in rural backgrounds who are rich and very well off. I don't know if those are the type who are going to be more likely to practice rural primary care. I was more talking about applicants from low SES backgrounds and low family incomes.

Still, its an interesting paper(I'm assuming we are talking about the same one lol) its just that paper focuses alot on people from rural backgrounds(not the low SES status) and for a very select few types of programs. It's just kind of a select sample.

 

[Affiche]

Yeah I'm from PA so I've heard about the PSAP program which the paper you're talking about focuses on. The thing is this is a specific program that is trying to actively recruit people up front to practice family medicine. This isn't like most med schools or medical education programs. So while a program that specifically really tries to actively recruit a small sample size of people to do family medicine and provides tons of incentives in their program to help almost "persuade" and guide the people in the program into family medicine, what about the vast majority of medical educations that don't do this? Most med schools even that have a mission statement for primary care, aren't going to actively go out of there way to provide these many opportunities for family care exposure and family care exposure only.

Also on top of that, here's the other key thing; this paper is talking mostly about people from rural backgrounds. That's different from low SES. The are many people in rural backgrounds who are rich and very well off. I don't know if those are the type who are going to be more likely to practice rural primary care. I was more talking about applicants from low SES backgrounds and low family incomes.

Still, its an interesting paper(I'm assuming we are talking about the same one lol) its just that paper focuses alot on people from rural backgrounds(not the low SES status) and for a very select few types of programs. It's just kind of a select sample.

I'm not sure we're talking about the same paper lol. I'm on my phone so I can't pull up what I'm referencing, but those four indicators have been cited a number of times in other studies as well as being established and reliable markers. I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have though haha so please PM the paper you're referencing. This topic is super interesting to me.

 

[Pusheen]

I have known some very spoiled kids. Those who receive cars on their birthday and get to go on mission trips to Nicaragua, Namibia, and the Philippines (all in 1 summer) because they asked daddy for a check. The same kids who can afford private tutors and have 4.0's and do volunteer work at homeless shelters and hate every minute of it. The kids who complain about getting a B+ on a test and can afford to go through 15 mock interviews so they come off as completely normal and well-adjusted individuals.

I know this shouldn't bug me so much, but it does
I feel like half the pre-meds are straight up buying their EC's and stats with daddy's money. Muti-thousand dollar MCAT prep course? check. Tons of support from parents so they don't have to work and can use that time to volunteer instead? check. Academic/Professional support and advising from parents in medicine and academia? check. International vacations and new cars as gifts for 'working so hard'? check.

Anyway, all that to say, I feel you, I really do. Yea, I'm bitter, but I'm also damn proud of myself for doing all this on my own. Hopefully med schools understand our plight.

 

[ZedsDed]

Hopefully med schools understand our plight.

The cynic in me says they care more about stats and their USN&WR ranking.

 

[El-Rami]

I don't understand why people say FAP is too hard to get. The maximum income your family can make is 300% of the poverty line based on your family's size. If your parents work low-end jobs, you likely can qualify. Regardless, I can understand how one's financial circumstances can be complex and make it difficult to afford basic costs even if the tax returns indicate it should be otherwise. Sorry to hear this, OP.

I know plenty of people who have trouble paying for application fees and end up only applying for one or a few schools. I myself am one of them, and I even worked while in undergrad. Bills and SNAFUs eat up savings fast. :\

 

[GrapesofRath]

I'm not sure we're talking about the same paper lol. I'm on my phone so I can't pull up what I'm referencing, but those four indicators have been cited a number of times in other studies as well as being established and reliable markers. I don't want to derail this thread anymore than I already have though haha so please PM the paper you're referencing. This topic is super interesting to me.

You can PM me your thoughts if you want. I'll leave the paper out here for anybody else who wants to look at it.

The Role of the Medical School in Rural Graduate Medical Education: Pipeline or Control Valve?
Rabinowitz, Howard K.; Paynter, Nina P.

 

[flapjack3d]

Coming from a high income background, with doctors as parents, I can totally agree that the admissions system is heavily biased towards people like me. No way I would have had the free time and relative stress-free lifestyle to spend volunteering if it weren't for my parents paying for my expenses. Pretty much all my research experiences have been from parents' connections. I spent a whole month just sitting in my room doing nothing but studying for the MCAT and eating chipotle. And I'm not thinking twice about applying to 20 schools since I know it wont be any trouble to pay for the applications or interviews. It's totally unfair. I'm not sure how to fix it though.
But I do think we could pay much more attention to personal qualities and motivations for practicing medicine rather than scores and ECs. You really don't need to be that smart to be a doctor, and most premeds don't really gain much from the extracurricular experiences beyond a practiced half-truth about how its deeply affected their desire to pursue medicine on a personal level.

 

[raiderette]

Rabinowitz and Paynter identified four predictors of physicians providing care for the underserved: being a member of an ethnic or minority group, participating in NHSC, having a strong interest in serving the underserved before medical school and growing up in an underserved area.

Edit: but I do agree that growing up with a low SES does make it easier to relate to low SES patients, and I have seen those that have always been privileged really struggle to relate to their low SES patients.

I do think that schools with rural programs address the issue of low SES applicants, and that is a pressing need in our country right now. Growing up low SES, I still had a better choice of physician in the Bay Area than I did when we moved to the Midwest and lived in a town of under 1,000. If anything there could be an emphasis expanding pre-health opportunities to low SES in addition to URM programs in order to identify and support low SES candidates.
I would like to see more auto admissions to medical school similar to Texas for disadvantaged applicants, complete with mentoring. It would greatly reduce the cost of applying, identify students before college, encourage them to perform, and raise the numbers of disadvantaged applicants.

 

[Goro]

100% correct as usual, Rachiie. SDNers also should not forget the power of a compelling life story; we Americans are addicted to come-from-behind/rags-to-riches narratives. It's in our DNA.

Having physicians from low SES backgrounds is incredibly important but not because they connect better with patients. I think it's important because these physicians are more likely to work in disadvantaged communities which are largely underserved.

 

[riversidestar2]

Spinach Dip, would you be willing to take $7k to get your application done this year, and in return, 15 years from now, help 3 other kids do the same?

 

[AsianPersuasion]

-Have no savings and zero family members willing to loan you money.
-Live in the northwest (so you have only 1 state school, and 1 other within 200 miles).
-Live in an area with high unemployment so you can only find part-time work as a chemistry tutor.
-Have a mother who makes a couple dollars above the FAP cutoff line.
-And you get bonus points if your father left the family when you were half-way through undergrad and left you (and your mother) with nothing more than a $50,000 past-due balance across a dozen credit cards.

Um, are we brothers??