How to "read" a school's match list?

[AAAmeds]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Hey everyone,

I've heard people saying that the match rate at most if not all USMD schools are quite high, and instead of worrying about match rate, I should look at the schools' match list to see if they can match into "competitive residencies". How would you classify a residency as "competitive"? What should i be looking for specifically in a school's match list? Any way to quantify this for a school in order to compare between schools?

Thanks a bunch

 

[libertyyne]

From what I have gained , looking at match lists is a fool's errand. We don't know the quality of the programs that people match into nor do we know if those programs were after thoughts or if they were first choice. The only value would be if you see a specific residency program you want to match in, even then the value of the match list is limited. What are you trying to do?

 

[RogueBanana]

Lots of matches into Ortho/Rads/Anesthesiology/Dermatology would mean a lot of that school's students get high board scores and are given the appropriate guidance to end up in a competitive residency.

At the end of the day match lists don't mean too much, but if you're interested in say, diagnostic rads (like me) then seeing a school has 20 out of 100 students go into diag rads would motivate me to choose that school over another school that places 1/100 students

 

[libertyyne]

Lots of matches into Ortho/Rads/Anesthesiology/Dermatology would mean a lot of that school's students get high board scores and are given the appropriate guidance to end up in a competitive residency.

At the end of the day match lists don't mean too much, but if you're interested in say, diagnostic rads (like me) then seeing a school has 20 out of 100 students go into diag rads would motivate me to choose that school over another school that places 1/100 students

The problem with this approach is that classes differ in interests and where and what they want to match in. but I agree with you!

 

[RogueBanana]

The problem with this approach is that classes differ in interests and where and what they want to match in.

which is why it's low quality data, but a school with a lot of people in your preferred specialty must be doing something right.

 

[efle]

To get super rough idea: Average step scores matching to each specialty can give you an idea which specialties in general are competitive. Doximity reputation ranks can tell you who is regarded very highly within each specialty. Much like US News this is not the best approach, but better than nothing.

 

[gyngyn]

The best Match list we ever had was our worst Match.

 

[efle]

The best Match list we ever had was our worst Match list.

Did people walk across the stage to the sound of one hand clapping instead of regular applause?

 

[libertyyne]

The best Match list we ever had was our worst Match list.

Did everyone just stay on for their residency at your school?

 

[gyngyn]

Did people walk across the stage to the sound of one hand clapping instead of regular applause?

They were still the happiest bunch you ever saw!
That's what you can't read in a Match list.

 

[gyngyn]

Did everyone just stay on for their residency at your school?

As much as I'd like to keep them all here, there comes a time to let them go!

 

[CyrilFiggis]

As @libertyyne said, looking at match lists is a fool's errand. Is "match success" an indication of the educational environment of the school or of the students they accepted? Also, the AAMC has data on 1st year residents, their Step 1 and 2 CK scores and their distribution by speciality. While a small number, there are plenty of students nationally who have 250+ scores who go into less competitive specialties.

https://www.aamc.org/data/448480/b2table.html

 

[Goro]

Here is a very simple way off doing this, and just as effective:

In reality, it's fool's errand. You can see how many people went, into, say, Derm vs , Ob/Gyn vs Rads, but they tell you nothing about the quality of the programs, nor whether they were first, second or tenth choice.

For DO students, I only find them useful to gauge the overall % of grads going into specialties vs Primary Care.

Hey everyone,

I've heard people saying that the match rate at most if not all USMD schools are quite high, and instead of worrying about match rate, I should look at the schools' match list to see if they can match into "competitive residencies". How would you classify a residency as "competitive"? What should i be looking for specifically in a school's match list? Any way to quantify this for a school in order to compare between schools?

Thanks a bunch

 

[efle]

Goro couldn't you find something a little bigger? I don't like having to squint to read images

 

[libertyyne]

@Goro at least for considering orthopedic residency, depending on Scapulimancy to assist would be a much more appropriate way. That or darts

Everyone knows Ortho chances are =(step1+bench press )/5+ bro-quotient

 

[Goro]

The I-ching or tarot cards might just be as effective.

@Goro at least for considering orthopedic residency, depending on Scapulimancy to assist would be a much more appropriate way. That or darts

 

[mimelim]

Lots of matches into Ortho/Rads/Anesthesiology/Dermatology would mean a lot of that school's students get high board scores and are given the appropriate guidance to end up in a competitive residency.

At the end of the day match lists don't mean too much, but if you're interested in say, diagnostic rads (like me) then seeing a school has 20 out of 100 students go into diag rads would motivate me to choose that school over another school that places 1/100 students

I agree with the conclusion, but think that you you're thought process is wrong. 20/100 people going into diagnostic radiology to me means that the school is doing a good job of exposing students to radiology and making it attractive to them. It might mean early exposure, it might mean great faculty/rotations, etc. But, trying to use 1/100 vs. 20/100 to determine anything about the school overall is silly. Any patterns you might find will be as misleading as they are helpful.

To get super rough idea: Average step scores matching to each specialty can give you an idea which specialties in general are competitive. Doximity reputation ranks can tell you who is regarded very highly within each specialty. Much like US News this is not the best approach, but better than nothing.

I know that you have an affinity for numbers and collecting data. But, this, like some things out there can get you into trouble trying to analyze. And it CAN be harmful, you can be worse off by making decisions influenced by bad data. There are so many obvious, confounding variables, never mind the huge human component to match lists that makes analysis like that woefully misleading. So in short, it is not better than nothing.

 

[efle]

it is not better than nothing

Let's say I use my approach to identify Derm and ENT as competitive specialties, and within them UCSF and Penn / Hopkins and Michigan are examples of very reputable residencies respectively. Where have I gone wrong? Teach me with examples!

 

[mimelim]

Let's say I use my approach to identify Derm and ENT as competitive specialties, and within them UCSF and Penn / Hopkins and Michigan are examples of very reputable residencies respectively. Where have I gone wrong? Teach me with examples!

Identifying competitive specialties, sure, you can look at the charting the outcomes data and get a pretty good idea.

Identifying the strengths of individual residencies, no way. Doximity? Ya right, might as well be facebook for doctors. There isn't a ranking list of residencies because as you will realize when you are in residency, the concept of 'rankings' for a training program is silly. There are certainly more desirable programs, but trying to figure that out while not being in the field is next to impossible (and notoriously difficult for even people within the field).

Overall match list quality? If you have a feel for lists and a few specialties, sure, you can maybe glean some big picture things, but it would be marginal and the chances of misinterpreting are way too high.

 

[efle]

Identifying competitive specialties, sure, you can look at the charting the outcomes data and get a pretty good idea.

Identifying the strengths of individual residencies, no way. Doximity? Ya right, might as well be facebook for doctors. There isn't a ranking list of residencies because as you will realize when you are in residency, the concept of 'rankings' for a training program is silly. There are certainly more desirable programs, but trying to figure that out while not being in the field is next to impossible (and notoriously difficult for even people within the field).

Overall match list quality? If you have a feel for lists and a few specialties, sure, you can maybe glean some big picture things, but it would be marginal and the chances of misinterpreting are way too high.

How marginal are we talking? Do you think if you blindly provided me the match lists of three top tens and three unranked schools, I as a layperson would be unable to correctly assign them using doximity and charting data?

 

[libertyyne]

How marginal are we talking? Do you think if you blindly provided me the match lists of three top tens and three unranked schools, I as a layperson would be unable to correctly assign them using doximity and charting data?

The problem is in assessing residency quality. Maybe you have too much hand holding or zero hand holding, maybe you get good cases , maybe you don't get the good ones. Maybe you work 100+ hours every week maybe you don't. Maybe they have didactic sessions maybe they don't. Maybe they network to land you great jobs maybe they don't. Maybe the attendings are inappropriate and chew you out unfairly. People looking from the outside have no idea how good a program is or how bad a program is regardless of the name . You need eyes and ears in the program to actually give feedback on this, plus those eyes and ears usually don't know the difference between good and bad considering for most it is their only residency program. Doximity is based on the perception of other PDs . Which is not a very good way to evaluate any of this.

 

[mimelim]

How marginal are we talking? Do you think if you blindly provided me the match lists of three top tens and three unranked schools, I as a layperson would be unable to correctly assign them using doximity and charting data?

#1 You can't blind someone on a match list because it will be obvious which school is which based on program choices.

#2 What is the point in stratifying match lists based on rankings? Of what use is it to an applicant? Higher ranked schools are more desirable, okay. Why do you need a rank list to confirm that?

#3 The question posed here as well as many threads before here is whether there is utility as a pre-med looking at a match list and how to do so. The answer is no, there is no utility. It gleans you no information about the school that should be used for making decisions. Given the propensity of people to read into things, "OMG THEY HAD 5 DERM MATCHES LAST YEAR!!!" it can be harmful to try to divine patterns or some sort of additional information about the school.

#4 Does the school you go to impact where you go to for residency? Yes. You are more likely to stay there for residency or in the general geographic area. But, does it impact the actual recruitment process? Outside of the super competitive programs (ie ~1%), no it doesn't. Trying to map how previous classes did into what will happen to you is just silly.

 

[Doctor Strange]

Don't. Match lists are not helpful.

 

[efle]

The problem is in assessing residency quality. Maybe you have too much hand holding or zero hand holding, maybe you get good cases , maybe you don't get the good ones. Maybe you work 100+ hours every week maybe you don't. Maybe they have didactic sessions maybe they don't. Maybe they network to land you great jobs maybe they don't. Maybe the attendings are inappropriate and chew you out unfairly. People looking from the outside have no idea how good a program is or how bad a program is regardless of the name . You need eyes and ears in the program to actually give feedback on this, plus those eyes and ears usually don't know the difference between good and bad considering for most it is their only residency program. Doximity is based on the perception of other PDs . Which is not a very good way to evaluate any of this.

That sounds like a great way to evaluate - who tends to take the type of superstars we really want vs not? Etc.

Anyways you could say the same argument for so many things. We can't really assess educational quality. Maybe your professors are just there to do research and don't care about teaching, maybe they play favorites, maybe the student body is cutthroat and overworked, maybe it's a party scene, maybe grading is unfair, etc. Yet nobody is going to claim "education quality" is so nebulous that we can't figure out who comes out from Harvard vs UMass-Boston on top

 

[efle]

#1 You can't blind someone on a match list because it will be obvious which school is which based on program choices.

#2 What is the point in stratifying match lists based on rankings? Of what use is it to an applicant? Higher ranked schools are more desirable, okay. Why do you need a rank list to confirm that?

#3 The question posed here as well as many threads before here is whether there is utility as a pre-med looking at a match list and how to do so. The answer is no, there is no utility. It gleans you no information about the school that should be used for making decisions. Given the propensity of people to read into things, "OMG THEY HAD 5 DERM MATCHES LAST YEAR!!!" it can be harmful to try to divine patterns or some sort of additional information about the school.

#4 Does the school you go to impact where you go to for residency? Yes. You are more likely to stay there for residency or in the general geographic area. But, does it impact the actual recruitment process? Outside of the super competitive programs (ie ~1%), no it doesn't. Trying to map how previous classes did into what will happen to you is just silly.

If you gave me 100 random matches from schools in similar areas I'd be pretty damn blind. I think this could be done blind.

Ask OP about the rest. I just gave the only way I've ever stumbled upon to attempt it. Bit of a goalpost move to change from "you can't do it" to "why would you want to"

 

[libertyyne]

That sounds like a great way to evaluate - who tends to take the type of superstars we really want vs not? Etc.

Anyways you could say the same argument for so many things. We can't really assess educational quality. Maybe your professors are just there to do research and don't care about teaching, maybe they play favorites, maybe the student body is cutthroat and overworked, maybe it's a party scene, maybe grading is unfair, etc. Yet nobody is going to claim "education quality" is so nebulous that we can't figure out who comes out from Harvard vs UMass-Boston on top

I think the difference is outcomes. For undergrad there are things like life time earning going into professional schools Etc to be evaluated. It's a little harder with medical school and it's even worse with residency programs.

 

[efle]

I think the difference is outcomes. For undergrad there are things like life time earning going into professional schools Etc to be evaluated. It's a little harder with medical school and it's even worse with residency programs.

So do people choose the residencies they apply to out of a hat or something? All based on location? If I'm Mr. Amazing best medical student you've ever seen am I really left clueless as to what places would be the most full of peeps like me for the thing I want to go into?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

So do people choose the residencies they apply to out of a hat or something? All based on location? If I'm Mr. Amazing best medical student you've ever seen am I really left clueless as to what places would be the most full of peeps like me for the thing I want to go into?

Wait, isn't it that the residency picks you and you won't pick the residency, just rank and hope for the best?

 

[libertyyne]

So do people choose the residencies they apply to out of a hat or something? All based on location? If I'm Mr. Amazing best medical student you've ever seen am I really left clueless as to what places would be the most full of peeps like me for the thing I want to go into?

I have no idea. I assume it goes something like this.
You walk your studly self into the advising office , the dean makes a few phone calls and sets you up with a few sub Is. You pick your favourite and submit your app after completing them. You go for an interview where you basically just laugh at all the plebians who couldn't sub I there and you go home. You open the envelope on match day but this is just a formality , you kiss your super model wife and tell her not to wait up for the next 7 years.

 

[libertyyne]

Wait, isn't it that the residency picks you and you won't pick the residency, just rank and hope for the best?

The Algo gives preference to applicants.

 

[efle]

Wait, isn't it that the residency picks you and you won't pick the residency, just rank and hope for the best?

The first steps are apply to a list, get interviews at some of them. Then you rank the places that you interviewed at by order of preference, and the residencies rank you/applicants. And then some mathematical magic occurs that matches you as well as possible.

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

So you guys are telling me that there is no way to discern a difference between these two match lists.

School 1:
Child Neurology: University of Kentucky
Dermatology: Southern Illinois University
Emergency: Indiana University
ENT: University of Kentucky
Neurology: University of Kentucky
Neurosurgery: University of Kentucky
Ob/Gyn: Good Samaritan Hospital Cincinnati
Ophthalmology: Indiana University


School 2:
Emergency Medicine: Alameda Health System, Oakland, CA
General Surgery: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT
Internal Medicine: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Neurology: Brigham & Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA
Pathology: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Pathology: UCSF, San Francisco, CA
Psychiatry: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Psychiatry: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT

 

[mimelim]

So you guys are telling me that there is no way to discern a difference between these two match lists.

School 1:
Child Neurology: University of Kentucky
Dermatology: Southern Illinois University
Emergency: Indiana University
ENT: University of Kentucky
Neurology: University of Kentucky
Neurosurgery: University of Kentucky
Ob/Gyn: Good Samaritan Hospital Cincinnati
Ophthalmology: Indiana University


School 2:
Emergency Medicine: Alameda Health System, Oakland, CA
General Surgery: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT
Internal Medicine: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Neurology: Brigham & Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA
Pathology: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Pathology: UCSF, San Francisco, CA
Psychiatry: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Psychiatry: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT

What useful information do you glean from this that you didn't already know about those two schools?

 

[Goro]

Just as an example, how do you know that the Psych program at JHU is a good one? Only a psychiatrist can tell you. Don't be starry eyed by the name of the parent institution.

Here's another way of looking at it. Do you think that the PhD Anatomy program at Keck is better than that at SUNY Stony Brook? Only an anatomist can tell you that.

So you guys are telling me that there is no way to discern a difference between these two match lists.

School 1:
Child Neurology: University of Kentucky
Dermatology: Southern Illinois University
Emergency: Indiana University
ENT: University of Kentucky
Neurology: University of Kentucky
Neurosurgery: University of Kentucky
Ob/Gyn: Good Samaritan Hospital Cincinnati
Ophthalmology: Indiana University


School 2:
Emergency Medicine: Alameda Health System, Oakland, CA
General Surgery: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT
Internal Medicine: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Neurology: Brigham & Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA
Pathology: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Pathology: UCSF, San Francisco, CA
Psychiatry: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Psychiatry: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT

 

[libertyyne]

So you guys are telling me that there is no way to discern a difference between these two match lists.

School 1:
Child Neurology: University of Kentucky
Dermatology: Southern Illinois University
Emergency: Indiana University
ENT: University of Kentucky
Neurology: University of Kentucky
Neurosurgery: University of Kentucky
Ob/Gyn: Good Samaritan Hospital Cincinnati
Ophthalmology: Indiana University


School 2:
Emergency Medicine: Alameda Health System, Oakland, CA
General Surgery: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT
Internal Medicine: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Neurology: Brigham & Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA
Pathology: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Pathology: UCSF, San Francisco, CA
Psychiatry: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Psychiatry: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT

That derm match seems baller.

Does it matter tho? What is the difference in the outcome? Will the EM doc from School 2 know some magical trick to revive someone that the EM doc from IU wont? Will the NSG from UK get paid less then the NSG from MGH?

 

[efle]

What useful information do you glean from this that you didn't already know about those two schools?

So you at least agree these are two match lists that are not only marginally different or indecipherable to a non-expert outside the specialties? You can keep arguing the why do this point after we clear up whether the can't do this part is true

 

[mimelim]

So you at least agree these are two match lists that are not only marginally different or indecipherable to a non-expert outside the specialties? You can keep arguing the why do this point after we clear up whether the can't do this part is true

Is this a joke? I can no longer tell. Can you tell HMS's match list apart from a mid-tier school? Yes. Nobody is arguing that you can't. Can you systematically rank/read into rank lists to gain further insight into what school to go to? No.

You can do whatever you want, nobody is arguing that you can't. Will it be accurate or meaningful? No. Will it be just as likely to misguide students as help them? Yes. Is that a reason to not do something? Personally, I would say yes. Medicine is full of bad data. Not incorrect data, but poor studies. That is what this is.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

So you at least agree these are two match lists that are not only marginally different or indecipherable to a non-expert outside the specialties? You can keep arguing the why do this point after we clear up whether the can't do this part is true

I think @mimelim is trying to say just because the hospital is Hopkins or Mass General it doesn't mean best residency.
Correct me if I'm wrong mimelim, but that's what I interpreted.
So I take away the fact is you can't measure the quality of a residency based on what hospital it is in.
Famous hospital doesn't mean top notch residency.
Is that right?

 

[efle]

Overall match list quality? If you have a feel for lists and a few specialties, sure, you can maybe glean some big picture things, but it would be marginal

Calm down dude I'm not telling premeds where to go to med school because of my opinion of their match lists. I've just been disagreeing with the above, it's not that much of an enigma

 

[libertyyne]

Here is the MD roster at MGH For Derm

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

So you guys are telling me that there is no way to discern a difference between these two match lists.

School 1:
Child Neurology: University of Kentucky
Dermatology: Southern Illinois University
Emergency: Indiana University
ENT: University of Kentucky
Neurology: University of Kentucky
Neurosurgery: University of Kentucky
Ob/Gyn: Good Samaritan Hospital Cincinnati
Ophthalmology: Indiana University


School 2:
Emergency Medicine: Alameda Health System, Oakland, CA
General Surgery: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT
Internal Medicine: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Neurology: Brigham & Women’s Hospital, Boston, MA
Pathology: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Pathology: UCSF, San Francisco, CA
Psychiatry: Johns Hopkins Hospital, Baltimore, MD
Psychiatry: Yale New Haven Hospital, New Haven, CT

First school gets a Derm, NSG, and ENT match and the second school gets two paths? Not an easy comparison. To me the first one looks more appealing even though the second has big-names.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Here is the MD roster at MGH For Derm
View attachment 215822

Looks very egalitarian..

 

[efle]

Looks very egalitarian..

Is it? I count 17 from schools in the top ~20-25, 5 international, and the remaining dozen come from the other ~115 MD schools in the country

Edit: ^ It's actually even worse than that because I didn't notice the top was multiple per line. So really it is like ~30 from the top, and a dozen from the 100+ other schools out there

And there are much more skewed examples, e.g. their neurosurg for whatever year this page is from is collectively from Harvard, Vandy, Duke, Stanford, UCSF, Penn, Yale, UCLA and...Ohio state (one). You can probably find a wide range of diversity depending exactly what you look at and where.

 

[efle]

First school gets a Derm, NSG, and ENT match and the second school gets two paths? Not an easy comparison. To me the first one looks more appealing even though the second has big-names.

Don't you think there's overlap in the specialty ranges tho? Like sure normally Derm >> Path but I'd guess the people going Path at Hopkins could have gone for whatever specialty they wanted but loved path!

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Is it? I count 17 from schools in the top ~20-25, 5 international, and the remaining dozen come from the other ~115 MD schools in the country

And there are much more skewed examples, e.g. their neurosurg for whatever year this page is from is collectively from Harvard, Vandy, Duke, Stanford, UCSF, Penn, Yale, UCLA and...Ohio state (one). You can probably find a wide range of diversity depending exactly what you look at and where.

Aren't students at top schools more likely to get top Step 1 scores which would mean more likely to get into top residencies?
They also have more access to research?

I don't see why someone from a lower tier M.D who gets a top step 1 score and manages to do as much research as his or her peers can't match at a prestigious institution.

The thing is when you want to go from the bottom to the top you have to be very self motivated and have to chase things harder.
It is the same thing with undergrad
Why do top schools send many of their students to top med schools?
Because those elite schools have the resources to give students the research opportunity, connections for volunteering, connections for shadowing, plus usually someone in an elite school is of the academic quality to be able to score high on standardized tests and do well in class.

Can someone from no name state in the middle of nowhere do the same?
Heck yeah
But they have to usually chase the opportunity themselves, and try harder.

I also want to see correlation of MCAT score with Step 1 score..
Hmmm..

 

[efle]

Aren't students at top schools more likely to get top Step 1 scores which would mean more likely to get into top residencies?
They also have more access to research?

I don't see why someone from a lower tier M.D who gets a top step 1 score and manages to do as much research as his or her peers can't match at a prestigious institution.

The thing is when you want to go from the bottom to the top you have to be very self motivated and have to chase things harder.
It is the same thing with undergrad
Why do top schools send many of their students to top med schools?
Because those elite schools have the resources to give students the research opportunity, connections for volunteering, connections for shadowing, plus usually someone in an elite school is of the academic quality to be able to score high on standardized tests and do well in class.

Can someone from no name state in the middle of nowhere do the same?
Heck yeah
But they have to usually chase the opportunity themselves, and try harder.

I also want to see correlation of MCAT score with Step 1 score..
Hmmm..

AAMC survey and PD survey have shown that where you come from can be important as its own factor, though where you're trying to go will determine a lot of its significance (e.g. aiming for private med school, aiming for certain specialties). And yeah there are also a bunch of other significant factors that can drown it all out.

MCAT to Step 1 score has a correlation of about ~0.6 iirc

 

[libertyyne]

Don't you think there's overlap in the specialty ranges tho? Like sure normally Derm >> Path but I'd guess the people going Path at Hopkins could have gone for whatever specialty they wanted but loved path!

I wonder this, the question is are these people with poor step scores and poor med school grades landing a path residency at home institution when they couldn't get one somewhere else?
Did they want to stay at the home institution because of spouses family and friends?
Did they not match anywhere else and their home institution picked them up ?

In all likelihood the deans at these large institutions are very well connected and probably pick up the phone and place you where you need to go. I wonder how much of the same thing goes on with non-t20 schools that have comprehensive residency programs attached to the medical school. Do they end up keeping a large chunk of their grads as well?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

AAMC survey and PD survey have shown that where you come from can be important as its own factor, though where you're trying to go will determine a lot of its significance (e.g. aiming for private med school, aiming for certain specialties). And yeah there are also a bunch of other significant factors that can drown it all out.

MCAT to Step 1 score has a correlation of about ~0.6 iirc

I reckon that has to do with reputation of clinical rotations?

Not all medical schools are attached with a top of the line academic hospital system with the latest technology

Many mid tiers are though, so going to one of them I don't think one would be disadvantaged at all.

 

[libertyyne]

AAMC survey and PD survey have shown that where you come from can be important as its own factor, though where you're trying to go will determine a lot of its significance (e.g. aiming for private med school, aiming for certain specialties). And yeah there are also a bunch of other significant factors that can drown it all out.

MCAT to Step 1 score has a correlation of about ~0.6 iirc

.39 r^2

 

[efle]

I wonder this, the question is are these people with poor step scores and poor med school grades landing a path residency at home institution when they couldn't get one somewhere else?
Did they want to stay at the home institution because of spouses family and friends?
Did they not match anywhere else and their home institution picked them up ?

In all likelihood the deans at these large institutions are very well connected and probably pick up the phone and place you where you need to go. I wonder how much of the same thing goes on with non-t20 schools that have comprehensive residency programs attached to the medical school. Do they end up keeping a large chunk of their grads as well?

I mean I think the inbreeding is often because they want their own students, not just because they have to rescue them and take them when nobody else will.

But to the first point yeah I imagine there are at least a handful of brilliant people that could do anything but happen to fall in love with something less competitive. Hell you don't even need to be that much of an outlier, the upper quartile for Path is about the same as the medians for things like Derm, RadOnc, ENT etc: