How was Hegseth’s speech received on the AD side?

[armytrainingsir]

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My squared away NG and reserve buddies, retired and veteran friends were all pretty much in 100% agreement of what he outlined.

Overall, I am happy there is a planned pivot away from a jobs/social program to a lethal warrior mentality.

Join the military.
Travel to far away, exotic places,
Meet interesting people.
Kill them.
😉

 

[DrMetal]

He really didn't say anything wrong. It's true.Many of us are out of shape and undisciplined. We've let ourselves go too long, both physically and mentally.

Now it's a question of enforcement. Are we really going to enforce this? Are we really gonna separate people If they fail to comply?

 

[militaryPHYS]

Ultimately we have to execute the orders passed down to us so I expect there to be some shifting back to a more Marine Corps approach to the military at large. My prior devil dog self sees this as essential given our likely future wars that we will face.

 

[DrMetal]

Ultimately we have to execute the orders passed down to us so I expect there to be some shifting back to a more Marine Corps approach to the military at large. My prior devil dog self sees this as essential given our likely future wars that we will face.

Future wars? with who, China? Not happening. We have no stomach for a peer to peer conflict. China can invade Taiwan tomorrow and set the island on fire. We'll do nothing but sanctions and rhetoric. POTUS knows this.

I'm all for such a shift, philosophically. We're essentially going back to pre-COVID years.

But policy has never been our problem . . . enforcement is.

In my 24 years in the Navy, I have never seen someone disciplined (much less admin separated) for PFB or no-shave violations.

I've seen 2 cases of admin sep (or force retire) for BCA/PRT failures, and this was done during a time (circa 2015) when this was allowed, and I had a XO on the warpath.

I'll believe it all when I see it enforced.

 

[Mace1370]

I PCS'd back to Walter Reed a few years ago and was pretty stunned to see the difference from when I was there as a resident. Nearly every active duty enlisted had a beard. Many were overweight. I'll keep my political opinions to myself, but I think a slight shift towards "more discipline" and "stricter standards" for active duty is reasonable.

 

[Apollyon]

Ultimately we have to execute the orders passed down to us so I expect there to be some shifting back to a more Marine Corps approach to the military at large. My prior devil dog self sees this as essential given our likely future wars that we will face.

Dude, I did not know you were prior USMC. Putting it all together, you've had a charmed life in the military! There is a guy that was a year ahead of me in military college that did 7 years as a SEAL - 4 enlisted and 3 commissioned. Now he, too, is an orthopod - but civilian now. His son is an enlisted Marine with the same skills and drive as him.

Bravo Zulu, man!!

 

[militaryPHYS]

Future wars? with who, China? Not happening. We have no stomach for a peer to peer conflict. China can invade Taiwan tomorrow and set the island on fire. We'll do nothing but sanctions and rhetoric. POTUS knows this.

I'm all for such a shift, philosophically. We're essentially going back to pre-COVID years.

But policy has never been our problem . . . enforcement is.

In my 24 years in the Navy, I have never seen someone disciplined (much less admin separated) for PFB or no-shave violations.

I've seen 2 cases of admin sep (or force retire) for BCA/PRT failures, and this was done during a time (circa 2015) when this was allowed, and I had a XO on the warpath.

I'll believe it all when I see it enforced.

Maybe because you’re talking about the Navy…and the medical corps. SecWar doesn’t care about us as long as we are ready to deliver wartime medicine (whole other issue). He’s talking about the lethal side of the military. No excuses, be ready to fight and kill and don’t let any BS get in the way of it.

 

[Apollyon]

Maybe because you’re talking about the Navy…and the medical corps. SecWar doesn’t care about us as long as we are ready to deliver wartime medicine (whole other issue). He’s talking about the lethal side of the military. No excuses, be ready to fight and kill and don’t let any BS get in the way of it.

Attending I had in residency was Army Reserve. He told us, "Staff pukes exist to keep the war machine rolling. Period."

 

[pawprint]

Enforcing the no beards in the military even if you have PFB is straight up a racist mindset.

Approximately 60% of black men suffer from PFB. Are we really willing to say that we would rather exclude 60% of black men on the sole basis that they have a skin condition that’s a product of their race? Or force them to get laser hair removal if they want to serve their country?

Totally understand needing to shave if it impedes the ability to wear a seal on an oxygen mask. But we have proven that that actually isn’t the case for most of our oxygen/gas masks that we use in the military. You can even look at other countries and they don’t do this because it’s not a safety issue.

Are there white people who have no-shave chits that don’t need them? I’m sure there are. But a policy like this doesn’t just punish them, it ends up excluding a chunk of people solely based on a condition that’s a product of their race.

The Navy only starting enforcing no beards in the 1980’s. This isn’t a “this is the way it’s always been” policy. It’s not a safety policy. It’s a racist policy, plain and simple.

 

[pgg]

The only facial hair infractions that ought to be punished harshly are those free-candy-van-down-by-the-river mustaches that pop up during the annual mustache growing contests ...

PFB is a real thing. Did plenty of no-shave chits when I was a Marine GMO. I don't understand the problem they're trying to solve by getting stricter about shaving.


I don't really disagree with a renewed emphasis on weight standards, but there will be unintended consequences that I suspect will make our military less capable. The truth is that the pointy end of the spear is a small, small fraction of the active duty population. Full credit and honor to the people slinging rifles, but we win wars because of logistics and technology. The people supporting the trigger pullers can be fat and still competent when it comes to fixing planes, driving fuel trucks, processing pay paperwork, making meals, setting up network hardware, etc.

 

[narcusprince]

How the Secwar or Secdef will be judged is are we more or less mission ready. If the policies he creates results in a contraction of armed service personnel then he is a failure at his job. I feel like his ideal military looks like the 1940s and 30s servicemen. Our country is different and those who can fight Gen Y value different things. He is just not in touch. FAFO….

 

[DrMetal]

How the Secwar or Secdef will be judged is are we more or less mission ready. If the policies he creates results in a contraction of armed service personnel then he is a failure at his job. I feel like his ideal military looks like the 1940s and 30s servicemen. Our country is different and those who can fight Gen Y value different things. He is just not in touch. FAFO….

I get it that people don't like him, b/c he's young and cocky. But if you just look at the transcript of his speech, there's nothing shocking in there. You're going to stay fit, stay within standards, dish out and follow lawful orders.

The problem with all of this is enforcement. I wish he had spent 5 minutes of his speech talking about the "or else". What happens if you don't follow our rules. Maybe this will come next. If we don't actually enforce it, none of this matters.

 

[DocSurgeon]

I get it that people don't like him, b/c he's young and cocky. But if you just look at the transcript of his speech, there's nothing shocking in there. You're going to stay fit, stay within standards, dish out and follow lawful orders.

The problem with all of this is enforcement. I wish he had spent 5 minutes of his speech talking about the "or else". What happens if you don't follow our rules. Maybe this will come next. If we don't actually enforce it, none of this matters.

I don’t like him because he is egregiously unqualified and compromised OPSEC via text message after someone invited a journalist into the group chat on a system that our adversaries are known to be able to hack into. The emoji use alone in that thread should be grounds for dismissal.

 

[armytrainingsir]

How the Secwar or Secdef will be judged is are we more or less mission ready. If the policies he creates results in a contraction of armed service personnel then he is a failure at his job. I feel like his ideal military looks like the 1940s and 30s servicemen. Our country is different and those who can fight Gen Y value different things. He is just not in touch. FAFO….

Hmmmmmm

Army hits recruiting goal for 2025 at earliest point in a decade

The Army has met its active duty recruiting goal for 2025, marking the earliest the service has reached its annual enlistment target in more than a decade, service officials said.

www.stripes.com

 

[narcusprince]

I get it that people don't like him, b/c he's young and cocky. But if you just look at the transcript of his speech, there's nothing shocking in there. You're going to stay fit, stay within standards, dish out and follow lawful orders.

The problem with all of this is enforcement. I wish he had spent 5 minutes of his speech talking about the "or else". What happens if you don't follow our rules. Maybe this will come next. If we don't actually enforce it, none of this matters.

I agree stay fit and stay in standards. But allowing drill instructors to “smoke” the recruits is barbaric and does not instill trust in the command. Also commands need to take some accountability with fitness. Make fitness a normal part of the daily schedule. Start OR cases at 9am versus 700 starts. If you want a fit service show dedication and sacrifice. When I was AD smaller commands were definitely better at allowing time for PT on the clock.

 

[pawprint]

Hmmmmmm

Army hits recruiting goal for 2025 at earliest point in a decade

The Army has met its active duty recruiting goal for 2025, marking the earliest the service has reached its annual enlistment target in more than a decade, service officials said.

www.stripes.com

I would argue that many of those “new recruits” have not yet been subject to any of the policies that the new secdef has instituted.

Focusing on superficial things like physical fitness have nothing to do with force lethality in the 2020’s. I’d rather have a 250 pound obese intelligence analyst that can tell me more than everything I need to know than have a guy who can do record push ups but only does the bare minimum at his intelligence job.

It’s about priorities. I’ve met plenty of great physicians who don’t meet their fitness goals. We have to decide what qualities matter to win wars in today’s age and focus on those things.

I don’t think muscle mass or endurance running matters nearly as much as it used to. We have subgroups of people where that matters…but blanket policies across the force don’t lead to more effective mission accomplishment.

As someone who has worked with special forces, you’d be surprised by the qualities that matter in that arena. Push up numbers certainly don’t. People watch too much TV and don’t understand what actually happens to our folks on the front lines.

 

[DrMetal]

I’d rather have a 250 pound obese intelligence analyst that can tell me more than everything I need to know

You do have that, they're called civilian analysts.

Also commands need to take some accountability with fitness. Make fitness a normal part of the daily schedule. Start OR cases at 9am versus 700 starts.

Exactly. Enforcement. This is where it could all go horribly wrong.

 

[pawprint]

You do have that, they're called civilian analysts.

No. Our civilians analysts don’t do the same thing as our active duty analysts. Never took a civilian analyst on deployment with me before. And our military analysts weren’t running into a fist fight in deployment. They were doing their job, being analysts.

 

[pgg]

A triple boarded, clinically outstanding, anesthesiologist intensivist at my last command was run out of the Navy a few years short of retirement because he was out of weight standards. They never promoted him past O3 because of it.

The Navy lost a terrific doctor who wanted to serve, who could've deployed anywhere and done great work.

A drone "pilot" doesn't need to be able to run a 6 minute mile.

I'll say it again, we win wars because of logistics and technology. Fitness matters to a small, small proportion of warfighters. The people who are obsessed over PFA metrics and the "look" of people who haven't touched a weapon since basic training are this era's classic example of a recurring theme in history: training to fight the last war, not the next war.

If enforced, this policy will make our military less capable and less lethal.

Make fitness a normal part of the daily schedule. Start OR cases at 9am versus 700 starts.

ell oh ell

As if Navy medicine needs more bull**** getting in the way of doing medicine!

 

[DrMetal]

No. Our civilians analysts don’t do the same thing as our active duty analysts. Never took a civilian analyst on deployment with me before.

Well, good point. Then (if they're active duty), they should be fit and within standards.

A triple boarded, clinically outstanding, anesthesiologist intensivist at my last command was run out of the Navy a few years short of retirement because he was out of weight standards. They never promoted him past O3 because of it.

They administratively separated him? solely because he couldn't make weight? Or was he also a 'squeaky wheel', and busy moonlighting?

Look, I'm no PT Ninja. On any given day, I probably skirt the line of the weight standards, and I go sometimes weeks without a good workout (unless you count golf).

But about 2 months before each cycle, I get it into high gear, fast, lose weight, workout more, and pass the frickin thing with plenty of wiggle room (not a max score, no where near it . . .but also no where near failing).

It's not that hard.

 

[pgg]

They administratively separated him? solely because he couldn't make weight? Or was he also a 'squeaky wheel', and busy moonlighting?

Never squeaked, never complained. Just worked.

I think he was at 15 years as an O3. Prior enlisted service, then HPSP. They held up his O4 promotion a few years because of the PFA failures. They don't do HYT for officers but there's some mechanism for adseping people who fail to promote a bunch of times.

I'm not saying it wasn't his fault. I'm saying the Navy lost a deployable subspecialist physician in a war-critical specialty because of exactly what Hegseth was talking about.

They could've kept holding up his O4 promotion and made him do remedial PT 3x/week. But they got rid of him, and that was dumb. It reduced our deployable capabilities.

Look, I'm no PT Ninja. On any given day, I probably skirt the line of the weight standards, and I go sometimes weeks without a good workout (unless you count golf).

But about 2 months before each cycle, I get it into high gear, fast, lose weight, workout more, and pass the frickin thing with plenty of wiggle room (not a max score, no where near it . . .but also no where near failing).

It's not that hard.

Oh I don't disagree on the 'hardness' of it all. My BMI is about 20 and I never had any trouble with the PFA.

My goal the last 5 or 6 years was to do the bicycle, because it was easy and indoors and I could watch TV while doing it. I'd pedal just enough bike-calories to pass, but not so much that I'd sweat and have to take a shower before going back to the OR. That tightrope was the only struggle I ever had.

 

[militaryPHYS]

We will still need a fit and lethal fighting force even with tech and innovation. You can be an expert clinician and also healthy at the same time.

When you lower standards your entire organization drifts. He is stopping that drift. How far we drift the other way remains to be seen but we have to let natural balance play itself out.

Regarding racial discrimination, there will always be waivers and avenues for true medically indicated chits, etc. When you have active duty clinics blocking off clinical FTEs just to manage the current burden of shave chits then the issuing of them has probably drifted too far and a rebalancing is necessary. The increased number of shave chits doesn’t correlate with any changes in racial diversity the last 10 years. Whites are less represented, African Americans and Asians are stable while Hispanic/Latino have increased.

 

[militaryPHYS]

My goal the last 5 or 6 years was to do the bicycle, because it was easy and indoors and I could watch TV while doing it. I'd pedal just enough bike-calories to pass, but not so much that I'd sweat and have to take a shower before going back to the OR. That tightrope was the only struggle I ever had.

Contrast this with someone of same rank and clinical expertise who continues to try to max out their fitness test twice a year. Same person, different priorities. SecWar prefers one over the other.

 

[pgg]

Contrast this with someone of same rank and clinical expertise who continues to try to max out their fitness test twice a year. Same person, different priorities. SecWar prefers one over the other.

Sure, in the fantasy world in which we're overstaffed and have people competing to stay on active duty, take the "equivalent" physician who maxes the PFA. Sure.

In the real world of GWOT with high op tempo and frequent deployments and an understaffed specialty, adsep'ing a doctor in a war critical specialty because he's fat harmed the mission and burdened the people who remained with additional duties and deployments.

But yeah I guess the department group photo looked better?

 

[militaryPHYS]

Sure, in the fantasy world in which we're overstaffed and have people competing to stay on active duty, take the "equivalent" physician who maxes the PFA. Sure.

In the real world of GWOT with high op tempo and frequent deployments and an understaffed specialty, adsep'ing a doctor in a war critical specialty because he's fat harmed the mission and burdened the people who remained with additional duties and deployments.

But yeah I guess the department group photo looked better?

Again, Hegseth is establishing new standard for combat units but the shift in priorities will trickle down to support staff.

Sorry your colleague couldn’t stay but ultimately he got to choose to follow the rules or not. We can debate the effect on medicine but the beauty of the military is that rules are rules and people can choose to serve and follow or not. As soon as you make an exception for one rule, it spreads like wildfire

 

[pgg]

Again, Hegseth is establishing new standard for combat units but the shift in priorities will trickle down to support staff.

Sorry your colleague couldn’t stay but ultimately he got to choose to follow the rules or not. We can debate the effect on medicine but the beauty of the military is that rules are rules and people can choose to serve and follow or not. As soon as you make an exception for one rule, it spreads like wildfire

Missing the forest for the trees

I'll try again

Physical fitness is largely irrelevant for 95%+ of the modern active and reserve military force.

Even in WWII the tooth-to-tail ratio was about 1:4.

The ratio is far, far, far higher now.

In a era when wars are won with logistics and technology supporting smaller and smaller numbers of infantry troops carrying rifles and rucks, insisting that the entire force of drone pilots, network techs, cooks, mechanics, pay clerks, radar operators, truck drivers, etc be held to the standard necessary for a Marine infantry battalion will exclude significant fraction of the available and willing talent.

The majority of the US population is obese. Half is female. Recruitment is fine NOW because there's no war going on and because the economy (for young people) is shakier than the media would have you believe. 5 or 10 years from now? Who knows.

If indeed this new directive only holds combat units (defined how exactly?) to this "highest male standard" then it's possibly a good thing. Though I do wonder how many of the 40+ yo men in enlisted/officer leadership positions there (ie the only ones left who have significant combat experience from GWOT) are going to stick around if held to the 18 yo male PFA standards.

I'm no longer on active duty. I couldn't give two ****s what the people serving look like, or how much facial hair they have. I want the military to be supremely capable of killing people and breaking things. Ideally that's a bunch of infantry that are fit, mostly male, young, unmarried, and slightly pissed off. Supported by 20x as many people who are good at their jobs and who don't get fired because they're fat.

 

[militaryPHYS]

Disagreeing with you isn’t missing anything…it is just disagreement.

Still age adjusted. Weight standards are not normed though. Who knows, in 5 or 10 years when people get to boot camp you might get your glp-1 in the buttock just like you get your penicillin.

You can also review the memos here:

What troops need to know about Hegseth’s new memos for the force

Hegseth ordered more strict grooming and fitness standards and less training on subjects like the Privacy Act, cybersecurity and controlled information.

www.militarytimes.com

 

[Apollyon]

Think of this: what if one flag officer or senior enlisted had COVID? This meeting, which everyone on Earth knew was occurring, and where, could have been a decapitating strike on the military.

 

[DrMetal]

Think of this: what if one flag officer or senior enlisted had COVID? This meeting, which everyone on Earth knew was occurring, and where, could have been a decapitating strike on the military.

Influenza is more concerning.

It was definitely a power play bringing them all together. He did deliver a good speech (SECWAR . . .POTUS not so much). It was well-written and well-prepared (though you may not agree with it's contents).

I wish he spent some time talking about the "or else". What happens to you if you don't abide by standards. If there's no enforcement or consequences, this will all be for not.

 

[narcusprince]

I feel like they won’t ultimately kick valuable people out of the military. It all comes down to the needs of the service.

 

[Chonal Atresia]

Hmmmmmm

Army hits recruiting goal for 2025 at earliest point in a decade

The Army has met its active duty recruiting goal for 2025, marking the earliest the service has reached its annual enlistment target in more than a decade, service officials said.

www.stripes.com

The reason why the Army met its' recruiting goals the past two years is solely because the DoD REDUCED said recruitment goals during the last several years when they couldn't beg people to join. 10 years ago we had close to 500,000 troops on active duty in the army....now that number is 450,000. A simple google search will give you those numbers. 50,000 less people (10% cut) that you need to either recruit/retain makes it a lot easier to meet a quota.

DoD will never be able to recruit the numbers they had 10 years ago, especially with Hegseth's recent diatribe/directives. If the economy picks up speed, the services will be in deep trouble.

 

[militaryPHYS]

The reason why the Army met its' recruiting goals the past two years is solely because the DoD REDUCED said recruitment goals during the last several years when they couldn't beg people to join. 10 years ago we had close to 500,000 troops on active duty in the army....now that number is 450,000. A simple google search will give you those numbers. 50,000 less people (10% cut) that you need to either recruit/retain makes it a lot easier to meet a quota.

DoD will never be able to recruit the numbers they had 10 years ago, especially with Hegseth's recent diatribe/directives. If the economy picks up speed, the services will be in deep trouble.

We have things better than google now. Only one who has slightly dipped is army but now back to previous levels and comparable to 10 years ago too. Otherwise recruitment goals increasing