I absolutely will not...
Started by Doula-2-OB
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stella81 said:So, Doula does that mean you are uncurcumcised if you are a male and if you are a female does that mean your boyfriend's thing is uncurcumcised. Have you seen an uncurcumsed p... before? If you have, i think you would change your mind
I'm a female, and I am uncircumcised. My husband is circumcised. My children are not. I have seen plenty of little boys who are intact, and far fewer who have been cut. If I could go back in time and tell my DH's mother to leave him intact, I absolutely would.
Psycho Doctor said:
I've never actually SEEN a penis, I always let my husband do that dirty thing with my hoo hoo when we're in the dark and my eyes are closed. Then I pray for forgiveness and cleansing afterwards, like all sinful women should. LOL!!
Does it bother you that I know more about your junk than you do? *lol*
Rafa said:
Come, on you never ask a woman how many peckers she's seen!
Doula-2-OB said:
I assume your husband laments the day his parents circumsized him as do all circumsized men.
It is a well documented fact that no circumsized man will ever achieve true happiness.
In fact, I'm pretty sure my being circumsized is the reason I'm on so many waitlists without an acceptance. Med Schools aparently prefer un-cut men.
Curse you, Mother!
Curse you, Father!
Curse you, Anonymous Doctor for doing their dirty work!
I wish someone had shoved their opinion in my pants (or daiper as it were). Then lil Depakote might be whole... and I might be in Med School right now.
I totally agree with the OP. The reasons listed in the "pro" column for circumsision are all things that an ADULT male can think about and make an INFORMED decision about later (I would have no problem cutting an adults foreskin off, an adult can consent). There is NO reason to remove foreskin on an infant, who will not be having sexual partners for a while.
There's always restoration. Don't worry, all isn't lost. 😉
Depakote said:
I guess you were a late bloomer?!?!Flopotomist said:
LifetimeDoc said:No, he should be concerned about HIV more than HPV. This is the danger of saying that circumcision offers some "protection". Some studies show a statistical advantage between circ and non-circ with regards to HPV/HIV/STDs, some don't. If you tell patients that it offers protection, they will think that it protects against everything. You'd be better off telling him to use a condom rather than offering circumcision, or tell him to clean his penis once in awhile!
Wow, what a lot of blather over a simple observation that HPV can affect males as well as females.
Doula-2-OB said:
Males on average achieve orgasm more rapidly than females. Maintenance of the foreskin supposedly increases sensitivity, and thereby would tend to hasten a male's orgasm even further. This average decrease in sexual duration should outweigh any supposed contact pleasure for women, one would think. As such I'm surprised more women aren't up in arms against any decrease in circumcision rates.
Aight, how about this one...
Penile Cancer
J Am Acad Dermatol. 54(3):369-91. 2006.
"Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well."
Treatment = the dreaded penectomy.
Penile Cancer
J Am Acad Dermatol. 54(3):369-91. 2006.
"Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well."
Treatment = the dreaded penectomy.
Yes - and the incidence of breast cancer is dramatically reduced in women who have had their breasts surgically removed - yet we don't advocate for this preventative measure in all women (even though breast cancer is MUCH more common than penile cancer).Havarti666 said:
Also - what is the incidence of penile cancer among boys under the age of 18? Is there any MEDICAL reason why a physician can't wait until somebody is old enough to consent to such a procedure?
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Without circumcision, the penis has no face, no personality!
But with that said, I know some people like the covered wagon look, so I'll pioneer the Un-circumcision correction surgery in about 12 years.
But with that said, I know some people like the covered wagon look, so I'll pioneer the Un-circumcision correction surgery in about 12 years.
i actually don't feel you do know more about it than I do....you just pretend to. 😛Doula-2-OB said:
Havarti666 said:Aight, how about this one...
Penile Cancer
J Am Acad Dermatol. 54(3):369-91. 2006.
"Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well."
Treatment = the dreaded penectomy.
many pages ago I brought up penile cancer; few seemed to care... 😱
with that line of reasoning I guess we should wait until fetuses can make the decision whether or not be killed.Flopotomist said:
Psycho Doctor said:
-- Doh! I hit send when I meant to hit cancel! 😉
well since i'm a heterosexual male I don't exactly go around examining other guys' penises, but guys talk. Do you make a habit of examining them?Doula-2-OB said:
edit: ah you changed your message as i was responding; i was sure i had captured the original message...oh well 👎
Psycho Doctor said:
Women talk, too. So if a woman is sleeping with a guy with a bent willy, her girlfriends just might know about it.
I examine the one I'm with, for sure. And having sons, I had to make a decision about circumcision, so during that research process I saw plenty of photos of various things, whole, cut, damaged, etc.
Are you implying something, Psycho Doc? Should I be... offended? 😉
Medic_9 said:
There's a restoration process but I am unfamiliar with the details of it.
That would seem to be a purely cosmetic process.Doula-2-OB said:
i'm not implying anything but i think you have a strange fixation on not circumsizing when you're not even a male.Doula-2-OB said:
if you believe a baby should not be circumsized without his permission, why do you feel it's ok for women to kill their babies without their permission? which is worse?
Psycho Doctor said:
Do you have kids, Psycho Doc? A wife? If you are married with children then you must realize that as a *parent* it is my responsibility to make choices for my children. Making them solely based on cultural mores is irresponsible. I do my best to enter into a decision with an open mind, learn all I can, and make a choice I can live with. That's what parents do, but if you are one, you already know that. In caring for my newborn sons I had to decide the fate of their foreskins. I took that issue as seriously as the decision about whether to homeschool or public school, to breastfeed or formula feed or both, etc. It's something you can't take back- even restoration can't restore all of the anatomy that is removed in a circumcision. I'm not obsessed with penises, this is probably the longest conversation I've ever had about them, honestly.
Abortion - whole other debate. Do you really want to go there? This thread will probably triple in length. LOL
Are baby boys their daddy's concern? Mommy should be left out of the circ decision because she doesn't have a penis? I'm not sure how having a penis qualifies anyone to determine the fate of someone elses. Having a labia doesn't qualify me to decide what happens to your newborn daughter, yk?
Doula-2-OB said:
i would also make an educated and informed decision that murder of my child is wrong; i can't imagine anyone thinking murdering their child is the right way to go and there's no way removal of foreskins can nearly compare.
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BrettBatchelor said:
Brett I think you might be right about that, I'm not really sure. I believe that some of the original functionality is restored but I'm not sure how much.
Psycho Doctor said:
You are absolutely right. They're not comparable at all.
exactly, that was my point when obviously removing a little foreskin from a baby can not compare to killing a babybbas said:
Psycho Doctor said:
You're absolutely right, but she's not using reason, and she whole-heartedly admits that. She's not trying to be consistent, she only is worried about not having to perform a procedure that she personally deems unacceptable. Just for some reason, she has a hang-up regarding this issue. She still refuses to accept the fact that uncircumcized males have higher incidences of cancer.
Until I read this thread, I had no idea that this was such a hotly debated topic. 😕
I have no problems with circumcisions, knee surgery or abortions, but I would absolutely refuse to do an autopsy on an exhumed body--an embalmed body can be preserved for up to 40 years, but this is rarely the case and I don't think I could handle this. I've seen bodies that had been left out in the summer heat for 3 days, and I've seen bodies that have been found floating in water, but I just imagine an exhumed body would be so much worse
Firebird said:
Thanks Firebird, I feel like you heard me. 🙂 I never denied the info on cancer but I feel like this is like prophylactic mastectomy. We don't submit our infant daughters to it to protect them from breast cancer. Why do it to our sons? It's a choice they can make as adults. Are teen boys the ones suffering from penile cancer? It seems that their geriatric counterparts are the at risk demographic. I admit I am not clear on the HPV link, I need to 'bone up' on that. *ba-dum-dum* LOL
I promise it's not a hang up, I don't spend hours a day wondering if the man walking past my house has an intact penis or not. LOL Ya'll are just getting to know me through this thread so it just seems like I'm hung up. I swear, I'm not. 🙂 Get me talking about birth in this country and you'll see 'hung up'!
Psycho Doctor said:exactly, that was my point when obviously removing a little foreskin from a baby can not compare to killing a baby
You're right, it can't. But both issues are more complex than jsut holding them up side by side. I can't be black and white about them like you can. I held my sister's hand while she had her abortion and it was terrible. She was treated with compassion and respect but at the end of the day her baby died and she is suffering because of her choice. I can't know what that was like, having never been faced with that decision nor having any inclination to make the one she did.
I can't talk about why I feel what I feel about abortion without getting into my spirituality and nothing takes a good discussion into the toilet like bringing your spirituality into it, so really, that's all I can offer you. It's not the great self righteous justification you might have been hoping for, but I'm not trying to impress anyone, just being me, all confusing, grey-area, figuring-it-out-as-I go, ME.
I attend women in birth in a very different way from any OB. I am with them from the time they think they might be in labor until hours after the birth. These experiences have left me a respect that I can not articulate for women and what the levity of our reproduction means. Again - I won't get spiritual on you but I just want to offer that this absolutely 100% factors into my opinions on abortion AND circumcision.
I can't give you an answer that you'll like, or that you'll agree with.
Firebird said:
It's rather nasty, but it doesn't bother me
i got this pearl of wisdom from a pediatric nurse - if you don't circumsize your son, he will, at some point in his life be called ant-eater. this is why his first word should be "meat-gazer." take advantage of every straight male's built-in homophobia.
oneaat said:
heh. I am an almost 22 yearold Male that has been a part of so many sports teams it is ridiculous which equals lots of locker room time (and some weird stuff happens in those places some times...Some of the stuff that guys did during football season still weirds me out) and I have NEVER heard "ant-eater".lol Perhaps it is a regional thing? 😛
Hi, I'm female, anti-circumcision, and pro-choice.
I would never circumcise a boy with a healthy foreskin for the same reason people don't remove the breasts of girls who have a high incidence of breast cancer in their family, or the same reason people don't remove an appendix at birth. There's no medical reason why a healthy foreskin should be removed at birth, if at all. If an adult wants to remove his foreskin, I'll give him my full blessing, but penile cancer and STIs aren't a consideration before the age a boy reaches sexual maturity. Additionally, circumsion *does* carry risks, including amputation, skin bridges, infection, reduction of sensation, (and for those in it for vanity reasons...the risk of a frankly weird looking penis).
As for the possible prevention of STI's...first of all vaccines preventing against most cancer-causing strains of HPV should be available soon, so that's a moot point. As for HIV...wear a freaking condom. That'll also prevent abortions! And reduce the risk of transmitting HPV and herpes!
Also, I don't understand why the men on this board aren't more concerned about the decrease in sensation following circumcision...? If someone suggested a procedure that could potentially decrease the sensitivity of my clitoris, they'd get a fist in the jaw!
And for those people concerned about uncircumcised guys not lasting long enough...has no one here heard of foreplay? geez.
And now...for abortion. A fetus is not a living human individual. It is human. And it has the potential for developing into a living human individual, but until it is separate from the mother it's not an individual human being. That being said, I see no ethical problem with aborting a fetus until such time that it has a reasonable chance of survival with a reasonable quality of life outside the mother's body (currently this is around 25 wks but depends on the particular fetus). Otherwise, we'd be forcibly using a mother's body as a fetus incubator without her consent. And I'm simply not okay with that.
As for those people who *truly* believe that a fetus is a living human being, well either you are against abortion at any and all cost (if the mother was raped, if the fetus is severely malformed and will die before it is a year old, if the mother is twelve and was raped by her father, yes, even if the mother will die delivering the fetus) or your beliefs imply that some lives are more worthy of protection than others. I see no way around this. But if someone takes that stance, then I have to respect it. Of course, I don't have that problem, seeing as I'm an atheist and don't believe in any of that soul business.
I would never circumcise a boy with a healthy foreskin for the same reason people don't remove the breasts of girls who have a high incidence of breast cancer in their family, or the same reason people don't remove an appendix at birth. There's no medical reason why a healthy foreskin should be removed at birth, if at all. If an adult wants to remove his foreskin, I'll give him my full blessing, but penile cancer and STIs aren't a consideration before the age a boy reaches sexual maturity. Additionally, circumsion *does* carry risks, including amputation, skin bridges, infection, reduction of sensation, (and for those in it for vanity reasons...the risk of a frankly weird looking penis).
As for the possible prevention of STI's...first of all vaccines preventing against most cancer-causing strains of HPV should be available soon, so that's a moot point. As for HIV...wear a freaking condom. That'll also prevent abortions! And reduce the risk of transmitting HPV and herpes!
Also, I don't understand why the men on this board aren't more concerned about the decrease in sensation following circumcision...? If someone suggested a procedure that could potentially decrease the sensitivity of my clitoris, they'd get a fist in the jaw!
And for those people concerned about uncircumcised guys not lasting long enough...has no one here heard of foreplay? geez.
And now...for abortion. A fetus is not a living human individual. It is human. And it has the potential for developing into a living human individual, but until it is separate from the mother it's not an individual human being. That being said, I see no ethical problem with aborting a fetus until such time that it has a reasonable chance of survival with a reasonable quality of life outside the mother's body (currently this is around 25 wks but depends on the particular fetus). Otherwise, we'd be forcibly using a mother's body as a fetus incubator without her consent. And I'm simply not okay with that.
As for those people who *truly* believe that a fetus is a living human being, well either you are against abortion at any and all cost (if the mother was raped, if the fetus is severely malformed and will die before it is a year old, if the mother is twelve and was raped by her father, yes, even if the mother will die delivering the fetus) or your beliefs imply that some lives are more worthy of protection than others. I see no way around this. But if someone takes that stance, then I have to respect it. Of course, I don't have that problem, seeing as I'm an atheist and don't believe in any of that soul business.
hahaha neither did i; in fact i though uncircumsized males in this country were embarrassed of their condition...i actually know somwe that are and I know woman who have insulted them for it.Firebird said:
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Most teenage boys are going to be so embarrassed of finding out they are different...(with their penises) they are not going to seek surgery or even mention it to anyone. Instead they'll develop psychological problems and hang-ups. Teenage kids are cruel to one and other and can you see the jokes in the locker room. Nope, it either has to be done as a baby or the kid just has to learn how to deal with the jokes...maybe we'll send them all to you.Doula-2-OB said:
You still did not address why it's ok to kill a baby without their permission...why don't you wait until they're 18 to ask if they want to be killed?
Doula-2-OB said:
considering you have seen the miracle of birth and witnessed the trauma of a voluntary death of a baby; you've also seen the exhilirating joy associated with bringing a new life into the world and the absolute depression of ending a new life; I can't believe you feel as you do. 😱 I can't imagine any sense of "spirituality" that puts more importance on a piece of skin at the end of a penis than the precious gift of a newborn child. 😕 It just doesn't fit.
You women who are anti-circumcision, and pro-abortion are just plain...well weird. A fetus is a living human that is growing, just as a baby grows into a toddler, then a child, then a teen and finally an adult.lilmissfickle said:Hi, I'm female, anti-circumcision, and pro-choice.
I would never circumcise a boy with a healthy foreskin for the same reason people don't remove the breasts of girls who have a high incidence of breast cancer in their family, or the same reason people don't remove an appendix at birth. There's no medical reason why a healthy foreskin should be removed at birth, if at all. If an adult wants to remove his foreskin, I'll give him my full blessing, but penile cancer and STIs aren't a consideration before the age a boy reaches sexual maturity. Additionally, circumsion *does* carry risks, including amputation, skin bridges, infection, reduction of sensation, (and for those in it for vanity reasons...the risk of a frankly weird looking penis).
As for the possible prevention of STI's...first of all vaccines preventing against most cancer-causing strains of HPV should be available soon, so that's a moot point. As for HIV...wear a freaking condom. That'll also prevent abortions! And reduce the risk of transmitting HPV and herpes!
Also, I don't understand why the men on this board aren't more concerned about the decrease in sensation following circumcision...? If someone suggested a procedure that could potentially decrease the sensitivity of my clitoris, they'd get a fist in the jaw!
And for those people concerned about uncircumcised guys not lasting long enough...has no one here heard of foreplay? geez.
And now...for abortion. A fetus is not a living human individual. It is human. And it has the potential for developing into a living human individual, but until it is separate from the mother it's not an individual human being. That being said, I see no ethical problem with aborting a fetus until such time that it has a reasonable chance of survival with a reasonable quality of life outside the mother's body (currently this is around 25 wks but depends on the particular fetus). Otherwise, we'd be forcibly using a mother's body as a fetus incubator without her consent. And I'm simply not okay with that.
As for those people who *truly* believe that a fetus is a living human being, well either you are against abortion at any and all cost (if the mother was raped, if the fetus is severely malformed and will die before it is a year old, if the mother is twelve and was raped by her father, yes, even if the mother will die delivering the fetus) or your beliefs imply that some lives are more worthy of protection than others. I see no way around this. But if someone takes that stance, then I have to respect it. Of course, I don't have that problem, seeing as I'm an atheist and don't believe in any of that soul business.
16 weeks old:
edit: i can't get the image to come up so check it out here:
http://www.envisionultrasound.com/
"we'd be forcibly using a mother's body as a fetus incubator without her consent" 😱 😕 what????? Did the gov't make her have sex? her boyfriend???? If she wants sex she needs to deal with the consequences. Now I will admit rape is a different story.
And I am not convinced about the decrease in sensation following circumcision; and the only ones who could confirm that for sure are those who was uncircumsized and then became circumsized and then had the same sexual partner in the exact same situation, so that's highly unlikely to have a very large study group. Furthermore if they want more sensation...hasn't anyone heard of foreplay???? 😛 You have a lot to learn about male sexual experiences.
I cannot believe that I am posting on pre-allo but the topic caught my eye... also can't believe I read the whole thing. Anyway, Doula-2-OB asked a legitimate question and since it would seem that very few contributors actually could answer it, I'll try (I'm a PGY-2 FP resident). Here are some things for y'all to consider:
1. There is a lot of regional variation in who does circs. In some places it's OB/Gyn because they're surgeons; in other places it's Peds because they're baby docs. I've done circs as an FP and also during my OB rotations because the convention where I went to med school was for OBs to do circs.
2. You get some choice about procedures you will or won't do. I can't imagine anyone holding a gun to your head and making you do a circ.
3. EVERY doctor who does circs starts by informing the parents that it is an elective cosmetic procedure with no proven significant health benefits, that it won't be covered by insurance, and that there are risks to the procedure ranging from excessive bleeding to infection to poor cosmetic outcome to loss of function to death.
4. Terms like "increased risk" and "increasing incidence" are meaningless without numeric definitions -- even when the quote is from Robbins fercrissake. These are qualitative judgments that don't help you put the subject in context. How MUCH increased risk? How many babies would need to be circumcised in order to prevent one case of penile cancer? I can tell you that the risk of "routine" complications from a circ (bleeding, infection, poor cosmesis) is definitely higher than the risk of developing penile cancer - and while the circ complications certainly aren't devastating the way penile cancer would be, neither are they something to simply shrug off. So be careful how you sling around these statements. The numbers don't hold up as justification for prophylactic circumcision.
I advise my patients against circs but if they want one I'll do it. I use local anesthetic and oral sucrose to make it less barbaric but it's still not a nice thing to do to a brand new baby.
1. There is a lot of regional variation in who does circs. In some places it's OB/Gyn because they're surgeons; in other places it's Peds because they're baby docs. I've done circs as an FP and also during my OB rotations because the convention where I went to med school was for OBs to do circs.
2. You get some choice about procedures you will or won't do. I can't imagine anyone holding a gun to your head and making you do a circ.
3. EVERY doctor who does circs starts by informing the parents that it is an elective cosmetic procedure with no proven significant health benefits, that it won't be covered by insurance, and that there are risks to the procedure ranging from excessive bleeding to infection to poor cosmetic outcome to loss of function to death.
4. Terms like "increased risk" and "increasing incidence" are meaningless without numeric definitions -- even when the quote is from Robbins fercrissake. These are qualitative judgments that don't help you put the subject in context. How MUCH increased risk? How many babies would need to be circumcised in order to prevent one case of penile cancer? I can tell you that the risk of "routine" complications from a circ (bleeding, infection, poor cosmesis) is definitely higher than the risk of developing penile cancer - and while the circ complications certainly aren't devastating the way penile cancer would be, neither are they something to simply shrug off. So be careful how you sling around these statements. The numbers don't hold up as justification for prophylactic circumcision.
I advise my patients against circs but if they want one I'll do it. I use local anesthetic and oral sucrose to make it less barbaric but it's still not a nice thing to do to a brand new baby.
I agree with almost all of this, noonday. (Henry's not my type but you seem to be a kindred spirit otherwise).noonday said:
Although I might do a cosmetic procedure if the person truly looks so unusual that it is likely to cause them great social and psychic troubles (even if they were born that way and there is nothing medically wrong). But not purely for "vanity", as you say. I'm also a bit torn on the fertility treatments, though leaning strongly towards opposing them. (You were probably also unsurprised at the "but there are no white newborns!" responses.)
I'm really surprised no one has brought up the oral sex aspect of circumcision, i.e. the "unusual" reason Dan Savage approves of it and had it done to his son - as a gift to all the people that will one day give his son head, and as a gift to his son... so that he can get more head. 😉
