I absolutely will not...

[Sol Rosenberg]

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Aight, how about this one...

Penile Cancer
J Am Acad Dermatol. 54(3):369-91. 2006.

"Penile cancer, while relatively rare in the western world, remains a disease with severe morbidity and mortality, not to mention significant psychological ramifications. Furthermore, the disease is observed with dramatically increased incidence in other parts of the world. A review of the literature has shown that the overwhelming majority of penile cancers are in situ or invasive squamous cell carcinomas, including a well-differentiated variant, verrucous carcinoma. Important predisposing factors are lack of circumcision, human papillomavirus infections, and penile lichen sclerosus, although other factors have occasionally been reported as well."

Treatment = the dreaded penectomy.

While I don't have time right now to find and read the entire study, the words that I bolded would lead me to believe that this is a meta-study. As you may well know, meta-studies are the most unreliable studies that somehow manage to be published.

 

[Firebird]

4. Terms like "increased risk" and "increasing incidence" are meaningless without numeric definitions -- even when the quote is from Robbins fercrissake. These are qualitative judgments that don't help you put the subject in context. How MUCH increased risk? How many babies would need to be circumcised in order to prevent one case of penile cancer? I can tell you that the risk of "routine" complications from a circ (bleeding, infection, poor cosmesis) is definitely higher than the risk of developing penile cancer

Where's your numeric definitions?

I advise my patients against circs but if they want one I'll do it. I use local anesthetic and oral sucrose to make it less barbaric but it's still not a nice thing to do to a brand new baby.

You insult an entire culture by saying it's barbaric. You know very well that Judaism requires circumcision (as does Islam, I believe) and it's just insulting to call their religious practices barbaric.

 

[trustwomen]

You insult an entire culture by saying it's barbaric. You know very well that Judaism requires circumcision (as does Islam, I believe) and it's just insulting to call their religious practices barbaric.

Y'know, I'm neither here nor there when it comes to male circumcision, but there are definitely religious practices that ARE barbaric and we should have the right to be able to say so. I respect diversity and all that, but c'mon now, the human race is pretty barbaric to start with, and a thin veneer of civilization doesn't represent a sea change in our natures. If we are trying to eliminate all "barbaric" practices, certainly some of them will be religiously motivated. Why does that somehow make them better (or more acceptable) in a civilized society?

 

[Firebird]

As for those people who *truly* believe that a fetus is a living human being, well either you are against abortion at any and all cost (if the mother was raped, if the fetus is severely malformed and will die before it is a year old, if the mother is twelve and was raped by her father, yes, even if the mother will die delivering the fetus) or your beliefs imply that some lives are more worthy of protection than others. I see no way around this. But if someone takes that stance, then I have to respect it. Of course, I don't have that problem, seeing as I'm an atheist and don't believe in any of that soul business.

This is absolutely not true.

Oh, and by the way, a term infant is no more capable of surviving on its own without the mother (or father) than a 24 week old fetus.

Would you abort a fetus after 25 weeks?


There's one other thing I want to say, that I meant to say earlier but didn't. There's a good chance that each one of us is friends with or is aquainted with someone who was the result of rape or incest. It is a terrible tragedy, one of the worst things that humankind can do to another person. But if every baby that was conceived due to rape was aborted, then there would be, no doubt, a few less friends, relatives, etc. in our lives. So next time you suggest aborting people because they're conceived through rape, realize that these individuals have a face, they are real people, not some hypothetical idea.

 

[MossPoh]

You can't leave us hanging with an intro like that...do tell!

Ohhhhhhhh more ass slapping than I'd care to think about..not like light ass slapping I am talking 15 feet running start jumping in the air hurt everyone else's ears ass slapping that'd leave welts, pissing on other guys while in the shower, um...ejaculating on other guys stuff, swim team..shave downs (i did that alone by myself) but others yea......something odd about guys shaving each other and where they do it. (One guy cut a chunk of his nipple off..which sounded pretty funny later on)...then basic disgusting stuff like not washing gear for an entire football season, or slapping someone in the nuts randomly.... I was the guy that just to get the hell out of the locker room as fast as possible.

 

[trustwomen]

This is absolutely not true.

Oh, and by the way, a term infant is no more capable of surviving on its own without the mother (or father) than a 24 week old fetus.

Would you abort a fetus after 25 weeks?


There's one other thing I want to say, that I meant to say earlier but didn't. There's a good chance that each one of us is friends with or is aquainted with someone who was the result of rape or incest. It is a terrible tragedy, one of the worst things that humankind can do to another person. But if every baby that was conceived due to rape was aborted, then there would be, no doubt, a few less friends, relatives, etc. in our lives. So next time you suggest aborting people because they're conceived through rape, realize that these individuals have a face, they are real people, not some hypothetical idea.

Y'know, there are some perfectly serviceable abortion threads out there, go look at Topics in Healthcare. Or OB/GYN. I'm sure that what I've written in them will make your head explode. Geez.

 

[lilmissfickle]

"we'd be forcibly using a mother's body as a fetus incubator without her consent" 😱 😕 what????? Did the gov't make her have sex? her boyfriend???? If she wants sex she needs to deal with the consequences. Now I will admit rape is a different story.

But now you're just proving my point. If you believe that a fetus is a separate human being with legal rights, than you can't say 'rape is a different story'. How would it be right for the mother to have her 'baby' killed because she was raped? You'd be justifying murder!

Your comment implies that a woman should be forced to carry her pregnancy to term as punishment for having sex with her boyfriend....um, what about the many many many older married couples who use birth control that occasionally fails, and decide to have an abortion? My mother would be one of those! Should she have to 'live with the consequences' of having sex with my dad?

 

[mamadoc]

Where's your numeric definitions?

Feel free to look this up and report back to the group. It won't be hard to find data on risks of circumcision.

You insult an entire culture by saying it's barbaric. You know very well that Judaism requires circumcision (as does Islam, I believe) and it's just insulting to call their religious practices barbaric.

I was not discussing the religious practice of circumcision and darn few of the other posts in this thread have addressed it either. As a physician I'm not likely to be asked to perform a religious circumcision. So I have no quarrel with ritual circumcision. We're discussing elective "prophylactic" circumcision here.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

But now you're just proving my point. If you believe that a fetus is a separate human being with legal rights, than you can't say 'rape is a different story'. How would it be right for the mother to have her 'baby' killed because she was raped? You'd be justifying murder!

Your comment implies that a woman should be forced to carry her pregnancy to term as punishment for having sex with her boyfriend....um, what about the many many many older married couples who use birth control that occasionally fails, and decide to have an abortion? My mother would be one of those! Should she have to 'live with the consequences' of having sex with my dad?

i did not say i approve of abortion for rape; i just said it was a different situation. 🙄

I also did not say carrying a preganancy was punishment for sex, but it is a responsibility.

So were you the result of your mother's failed contraception? I'm confused. How would you feel if she aborted you?

 

[Firebird]

But now you're just proving my point. If you believe that a fetus is a separate human being with legal rights, than you can't say 'rape is a different story'. How would it be right for the mother to have her 'baby' killed because she was raped? You'd be justifying murder!

Your comment implies that a woman should be forced to carry her pregnancy to term as punishment for having sex with her boyfriend....um, what about the many many many older married couples who use birth control that occasionally fails, and decide to have an abortion? My mother would be one of those! Should she have to 'live with the consequences' of having sex with my dad?

It's not punishment. It's simply being responsible for your actions and not killing a perfectly viable human. I think that any time a person has sex they need to realize there is a chance of the woman getting pregnant. If that is not acceptable, don't do it.

That's enough about abortion. Trustwomen is right--there are other topics for that, so this is my last post here that is related to abortion only. And to some degree, I think it's insensitive to say things like, "well my relative had an abortion," etc., because to those who can not conceive and want to, it is absolutely crushing to hear about another person aborting a child.

"That's all I have to say about that."
-Forrest Gump

 

[lilmissfickle]

This is absolutely not true.

Oh, and by the way, a term infant is no more capable of surviving on its own without the mother (or father) than a 24 week old fetus.

Um...what? Of course it is. A term infant can be cared for by hospital staff and then by adoptive parents. A 20 week fetus will die outside the mother's body, no matter who's taking care of it. Hence, it is not really an 'individual'.

There's one other thing I want to say, that I meant to say earlier but didn't. There's a good chance that each one of us is friends with or is aquainted with someone who was the result of rape or incest. It is a terrible tragedy, one of the worst things that humankind can do to another person. But if every baby that was conceived due to rape was aborted, then there would be, no doubt, a few less friends, relatives, etc. in our lives. So next time you suggest aborting people because they're conceived through rape, realize that these individuals have a face, they are real people, not some hypothetical idea.

This is the most pointless argument ever. If a fetus is aborted, it will never develop into my 'potential best friend', hence I won't be 'losing' the best friendship of my life. You can't miss a person that has never existed. The real world is not like back to the future where certain events are 'supposed' to happen and if we do things wrong, we'll 'miss out' on our destined life. Sometimes when pro-life people get sentimental like this (and I recognize that most pro-lifers have more sound reasoning than this) I can't help but think they're imagining in their heads some alternate universe filled with the souls of all the adults who were/will be aborted in the real world. The whole idea boggles my mind.

 

[Firebird]

Feel free to look this up and report back to the group. It won't be hard to find data on risks of circumcision.

I couldn't care less about the hard data on the risks. You're the one who was insisting, in the very same post, that you have to use numerical data. But then you turned right around and made a "qualitative judgement."

 

[Psycho Doctor]

It's not punishment. It's simply being responsible for your actions and not killing a perfectly viable human. I think that any time a person has sex they need to realize there is a chance of the woman getting pregnant. If that is not acceptable, don't do it.

That's enough about abortion. Trustwomen is right--there are other topics for that, so this is my last post here that is related to abortion only. And to some degree, I think it's insensitive to say things like, "well my relative had an abortion," etc., because to those who can not conceive and want to, it is absolutely crushing to hear about another person aborting a child.

"That's all I have to say about that."
-Forrest Gump

that is so absolutely right; the heartbreak that some families go thru when they can't have a child is unbelievable, and when people abort instead of giving up for adoption is unbearable. 🙁

 

[trustwomen]

So... no opinions from head-givers on the merits of circumcision? 😛

 

[lilmissfickle]

So were you the result of your mother's failed contraception? I'm confused. How would you feel if she aborted you?

No. I was very much planned. My mother had an abortion after she had my brother and I (she had very difficult pregnancies and devloped preeclampsia with both of us, and she was over 40 when she had the abortion).

And I wouldn't think or feel *anything* if my mother had aborted me, obviously, since I wouldn't exist. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp? 😕

 

[Firebird]

Um...what? Of course it is. A term infant can be cared for by hospital staff and then by adoptive parents. A 20 week fetus will die outside the mother's body, no matter who's taking care of it. Hence, it is not really an 'individual'.



This is the most pointless argument ever. If a fetus is aborted, it will never develop into my 'potential best friend', hence I won't be 'losing' the best friendship of my life. You can't miss a person that has never existed. The real world is not like back to the future where certain events are 'supposed' to happen and if we do things wrong, we'll 'miss out' on our destined life. Sometimes when pro-life people get sentimental like this (and I recognize that most pro-lifers have more sound reasoning than this) I can't help but think they're imagining in their heads some alternate universe filled with the souls of all the adults who were/will be aborted in the real world. The whole idea boggles my mind.

You completely missed both points.

The first point, was that a term infant is no more of an individual than a 24 week fetus. A term infant can not care for itself, no more than a fetus. A term infant can no more feed itself than a fetus. If you reason that a fetus is not an individual, because it can not survive on its own, then a term infant is not an individual, either.

Secondly, the point of the second post was obviously not to suggest that mankind is interfering with fate and that Marty McFly is one day going to show up with Doc Brown and everyone is going to be accountable for it...the point was that you're talking about the conceptus of rape as if it is some abstract or hypothetical person...but it's not. They are living fetuses just like every other fetus and they turn into real people. Why is the child who is a product of rape less worthy to live than any other child? Again, the point is that there are real people out there, who are a result of a rape, and 1. they are every bit as worthy for life as you and 2. it's insensitive to talk about them as if they don't deserve to live.

 

[Gabby]

I'm pretty much finished with the circ debate, but I do have something to add to the posters who talk about not doing "cosmetic procedures" since the word "vanity" has been thrown around several times on this thread and because it's a pet peeve of mine. Why do some doctors assume that people who want a cosmetic procedure are vain? Most of us will encounter patients who want something done for cosmetic purposes, but I don't understand your objection.

Four years ago, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and during the diagnosis process, a dermatologist had to get a skin biopsy of a rash on my face. He cut a hole in my cheek, an actual hole that he never stitched. I was so sick at that point, it never occurred to me to pay attention to what he was and wasn't doing or to think about the awful scar that would remain.

I don't consider myself a vain person, but I don't like looking different. Even though most people said they never even noticed it, *I* knew there was a hole in my face that never closed up and I hated it. Finally, this past December, I went to another doctor who sliced my cheek so he could stitch it back up in a more vertical angle. I still have a scar there, but at least it isn't a hole.

My point is, if patients feel bad about themselves, they shouldn't be labeled vain. Some people told me it was all vanity, but no matter how minor it seemed to them, until they walked in my shoes, they didn't have a right to say that. It isn't always about vanity as much as it is about looking like your old self or feeling better about yourself. Both of which I think are important distinctions.

 

[trustwomen]

No. I was very much planned. My mother had an abortion after she had my brother and I (she had very difficult pregnancies and devloped preeclampsia with both of us, and she was over 40 when she had the abortion).

And I wouldn't think or feel *anything* if my mother had aborted me, obviously, since I wouldn't exist. Why is this such a hard concept to grasp? 😕

Hey lilmiss,

I'm with you on all counts, but I wouldn't recommend getting into it here. It's sort of a thread hijack, there are other threads on abortion, and there just is no reasoning with some people anyway... you'll see what I mean when you see the sheer length of the abortion threads.

p.s. Welcome to SDN, we need more people like you. 😀

 

[Doctor Bagel]

I'm pretty much finished with the circ debate, but I do have something to add to the posters who talk about not doing "cosmetic procedures" since the word "vanity" has been thrown around several times on this thread and because it's a pet peeve of mine. Why do some doctors assume that people who want a cosmetic procedure are vain? Most of us will encounter patients who want something done for cosmetic purposes, but I don't understand your objection.

Four years ago, I was diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and during the diagnosis process, a dermatologist had to get a skin biopsy of a rash on my face. He cut a hole in my cheek, an actual hole that he never stitched. I was so sick at that point, it never occurred to me to pay attention to what he was and wasn't doing or to think about the awful scar that would remain.

I don't consider myself a vain person, but I don't like looking different. Even though most people said they never even noticed it, *I* knew there was a hole in my face that never closed up and I hated it. Finally, this past December, I went to another doctor who sliced my cheek so he could stitch it back up in a more vertical angle. I still have a scar there, but at least it isn't a hole.

My point is, if patients feel bad about themselves, they shouldn't be labeled vain. Some people told me it was all vanity, but no matter how minor it seemed to them, until they walked in my shoes, they didn't have a right to say that. It isn't always about vanity as much as it is about looking like your old self or feeling better about yourself. Both of which I think are important distinctions.

Thanks for sharing your story. I too am puzzled by all the people here who say that won't do cosmetic procedures. Sure, the patients on Dr. 90210 seem a bit ridiculous, but I imagine most of us would want plastic surgery in situations like yours.

 

[Doula-2-OB]

Most teenage boys are going to be so embarrassed of finding out they are different...(with their penises) they are not going to seek surgery or even mention it to anyone. Instead they'll develop psychological problems and hang-ups. Teenage kids are cruel to one and other and can you see the jokes in the locker room. Nope, it either has to be done as a baby or the kid just has to learn how to deal with the jokes...maybe we'll send them all to you.

In my community, the number of intact boys is increasing. As I've previously mentioned, the boys my sons ages are largely intact. Who is going to be teased? Probably both sides, in this generation. That's fine with me. In your generation, intact boys were probably mercilessly teased. I'm sorry for those boys. My boys might be teased for hundreds of things, I'm not trying to protect them from life, I'm trying to protect them from unnecessary surgery.

You still did not address why it's ok to kill a baby without their permission...why don't you wait until they're 18 to ask if they want to be killed?

For reasons I've already mentioned, I'm purposely not engaging in an abortion debate with an obviously Christian, pro-life person. I understand what you're trying to say and time after time I relent to your point but still you insist on driving it. I am not going to defend my opinions on abortion, in parallel with circumcision.

 

[Doula-2-OB]

You women who are anti-circumcision, and pro-abortion are just plain...well weird.

I can live with that. 😀

People aren't boxes, neatly stacked and organized. We aren't puzzles, where every peice has its place in the picture. The world isnt' black and white, much as you seem to want it to be, as most people seem to want as well. I don't want black and white, I want people to be complex and surprising. Inconsistencies... so what?? You keep asking me to repeat my same point over and over because it doesn't mesh with your belief system (religious or personal or otherwise), and I keep telling you that it isn't going to make sense to you, because you are looking for order where there is none. I know you think it's weird. I'm really, really okay with that.

 

[Doula-2-OB]

I'm really surprised no one has brought up the oral sex aspect of circumcision, i.e. the "unusual" reason Dan Savage approves of it and had it done to his son - as a gift to all the people that will one day give his son head, and as a gift to his son... so that he can get more head. 😉

Eh. Whatever, that's not even a reason, that's personal preference. He's deciding what his son's future partners would prefer and not giving his son a choice. But that's his right as a father- I don't have to agree to respect it.

This totally implies that intact men don't get blowjobs. Hello??? America is I'm pretty sure the ONLY country in the world that routinely circs our sons... so no men anywhere else get a good morning BJ? It's a cultural issue, not a medical one. We don't want our sons teased, we don't want them to look different from Daddy, we are afraid of what future partners might think, we don't know how to deal with an intact penis because we haven't seen one before so we might as well make our son 'normal'.

Formula feeding used to be 'normal', too. It used to be the standard feeding method and breastfeeders were 'weirdos'. It was weird to not use medical technology when it was at our disposal, when we could argue that it was 'superior' to the natural alternative. The pendulum is swinging again, and breastmilk is back on the menu. (THANK GOD).

The circ pendulum (haha, great visual lol) is also swinging and less and less boys are being cut. Being intact is coming back into being the norm, at least where I live.

 

[lilmissfickle]

Hey lilmiss,

I'm with you on all counts, but I wouldn't recommend getting into it here. It's sort of a thread hijack, there are other threads on abortion, and there just is no reasoning with some people anyway... you'll see what I mean when you see the sheer length of the abortion threads.

p.s. Welcome to SDN, we need more people like you. 😀

Thanks for the welcome! I know I shouldn't get involved, but I was honestly surprised so many future docs (well, hopefully future docs!) were anti-abortion. LOL, I guess I live a pretty damn sheltered life up here in Canada, where being pro-choice is the norm, not the exception (or at least, among my friends/family). Either way, I'm personally very relieved that my personal ethics seem to agree with the law (at least in most cases...I'm also for legalizing pot, prostitution, and euthanasia, but I guess one thing at a time) because it always sucks to feel that your country's laws are unjust.

Other than that, I've got a boring desk job and nothing to do but pass the time on SDN...maybe I should get back to studying for the MCATs. 😀

 

[Doula-2-OB]

So... no opinions from head-givers on the merits of circumcision? 😛

If I were single and looking for a guy I'd definitely be interested to know if he was circed or not. It wouldn't be a deal breaker but just like some guys want big tits I would be more interested if he wasn't circed. 😉

 

[Doula-2-OB]

I'm pretty much finished with the circ debate, but I do have something to add to the posters who talk about not doing "cosmetic procedures" since the word "vanity" has been thrown around several times on this thread and because it's a pet peeve of mine. Why do some doctors assume that people who want a cosmetic procedure are vain? Most of us will encounter patients who want something done for cosmetic purposes, but I don't understand your objection.

I have no problem with cosmetic procedures when they are needed, as many are, like in your case. But cosmetic *simply for the purpose of being cosmetic* is another issue, and performing them on a newborn is another. They're just not the same.

 

[Gabby]

I have no problem with cosmetic procedures when they are needed, as many are, like in your case. But cosmetic *simply for the purpose of being cosmetic* is another issue, and performing them on a newborn is another. They're just not the same.

How do you distinguish between them though? Forget the newborn issue and talk about adults. How can you say that mine was "needed" but that someone who wants to have large mole removed from their face or their crooked nose fixed is being vain? Where's that line because I can't see it.

Thanks for sharing your story. I too am puzzled by all the people here who say that won't do cosmetic procedures. Sure, the patients on Dr. 90210 seem a bit ridiculous, but I imagine most of us would want plastic surgery in situations like yours.

Thanks!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

How do you distinguish between them though? Forget the newborn issue and talk about adults. How can you say that mine was "needed" but that someone who wants to have large mole removed from their face or their crooked nose fixed is being vain? Where's that line because I can't see it.

I have trouble with that one, too. Is having a big nose different from having a scar? How about women who get a tummy tuck after giving birth, or people who have loose skin removed post gastric bypass? If you feel bad about it, I don't see any problem with getting it fixed.

I do agree that I wouldn't have my son circumsized as an infant for purely cosmetic reasons. But it's different when adults choose to get cosmetic surgery.

 

[Doula-2-OB]

How do you distinguish between them though? Forget the newborn issue and talk about adults. How can you say that mine was "needed" but that someone who wants to have large mole removed from their face or their crooked nose fixed is being vain? Where's that line because I can't see it.

Because you're an adult who made a choice. A newborn, barring a birth defect, has no sense of vanity. He's not pulling down his diaper to show the ladies, ykwim? LOL

Yours was 'needed' because you are an adult, and you deemed it so. I haven't seen your injury so I can't tell you what *I* would deem necessary.

And *I* am not the person who talked about vanity, so I'm probably the wrong person to answer the rest of your question.

 

[Gabby]

Because you're an adult who made a choice. A newborn, barring a birth defect, has no sense of vanity. He's not pulling down his diaper to show the ladies, ykwim? LOL

Yours was 'needed' because you are an adult, and you deemed it so. I haven't seen your injury so I can't tell you what *I* would deem necessary.

And *I* am not the person who talked about vanity, so I'm probably the wrong person to answer the rest of your question.

As I said, I'm finished with the newborn debate. I'm talking about something entirely different. My comments were directed to the people who talked about not wanting to perform cosmetic surgeries. When you answered, I followed up.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

In my community, the number of intact boys is increasing. As I've previously mentioned, the boys my sons ages are largely intact. Who is going to be teased? Probably both sides, in this generation. That's fine with me. In your generation, intact boys were probably mercilessly teased. I'm sorry for those boys. My boys might be teased for hundreds of things, I'm not trying to protect them from life, I'm trying to protect them from unnecessary surgery.



For reasons I've already mentioned, I'm purposely not engaging in an abortion debate with an obviously Christian, pro-life person. I understand what you're trying to say and time after time I relent to your point but still you insist on driving it. I am not going to defend my opinions on abortion, in parallel with circumcision.

ok, fair enough

 

[VFTW]

You really do bring up an excellent point, Doula. I am completely against circumcision (in developed nations, anyway)- but since the practice is so fashionable in the United States I will undoubtedly be required to perform it if I go into Ob/Gyn or Pediatrics. So I guess that knocks those two specialties off my list...

Oddly enough, though, I have no moral qualms with clitorectomies. Go figure... (joking, by the way)

You are not required to perform any procedure that you are morally opposed to. Ethically, you should, however, freely refer patients who want these procedures to other physicians who will perform them. Additionally, not wanting to perform circumcisions will not hinder you in medical school. You don't do them in med school. For educational purposes, you should be willing to watch procedures that you are opposed to, for the learning experience of educating yourself fully (and being able to take an even more educated stand on your beliefs) but you are not required to perform or assist with these procedures.

 

[Psycho Doctor]

You are not required to perform any procedure that you are morally opposed to. Ethically, you should, however, freely refer patients who want these procedures to other physicians who will perform them. Additionally, not wanting to perform circumcisions will not hinder you in medical school. You don't do them in med school. For educational purposes, you should be willing to watch procedures that you are opposed to, for the learning experience of educating yourself fully (and being able to take an even more educated stand on your beliefs) but you are not required to perform or assist with these procedures.

there is seriously NO WAY I could watch an abortion; will I be forced to watch one??

 

[Rafa]

there is seriously NO WAY I could watch an abortion; will I be forced to watch that.

Yes you will. They'll strap you down and hold your eyes open through 10,000 D/Cs.

 

[Bluntman]

Yes you will. They'll strap you down and hold your eyes open through 10,000 D/Cs.

 

[noonday]

hmmm

to whoever said "what would you think if your mom aborted you?" all i can say is "um, nothing. i wouldn't be around, and therefore i couldn't/wouldn't care"

why does nearly any thread that discusses anything anywhere near the groin in either sex end up as an abortion debate???

and the real reason for this post: to give a "what, what!" shout out to whoever posted about cut being more pleasing to, ahem, service. it's too, too true. cut your boys if you want them to get more head later in life!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

hmmm

to whoever said "what would you think if your mom aborted you?" all i can say is "um, nothing. i wouldn't be around, and therefore i couldn't/wouldn't care"

This reminds me of a stupid Sunday school class I went to in 7th grade where we were supposed to imagine what our lives would be like if we had been aborted. Mind you, this was in a catholic church -- I didn't know Catholics believed in reincarnation. 🙂

Hey, everyone likes a discussion where you can say things like "murdering babies."

 

[trustwomen]

How do you distinguish between them though? Forget the newborn issue and talk about adults. How can you say that mine was "needed" but that someone who wants to have large mole removed from their face or their crooked nose fixed is being vain? Where's that line because I can't see it.

I think I said something about, if the person truly looks so unusual that they are likely to have social repercussions from it, or has had a disease or accident that has disfigured them, I don't have a problem with performing a cosmetic procedure; it would be therapeutic. However, if it really is just to look "prettier" when the person is already average-to-pretty, I simply don't see the need. That person would probably benefit more from self-esteem counseling than plastic surgery.

Note that I believe people have the right to have elective cosmetic surgery for whatever reason they choose - it's just that I wouldn't want to perform them.

 

[trustwomen]

and the real reason for this post: to give a "what, what!" shout out to whoever posted about cut being more pleasing to, ahem, service. it's too, too true. cut your boys if you want them to get more head later in life!

Thanks noonday 🙂

No ****, eh?

 

[browniegirl86]

I agree with almost all of this, noonday. (Henry's not my type but you seem to be a kindred spirit otherwise).

Although I might do a cosmetic procedure if the person truly looks so unusual that it is likely to cause them great social and psychic troubles (even if they were born that way and there is nothing medically wrong). But not purely for "vanity", as you say. I'm also a bit torn on the fertility treatments, though leaning strongly towards opposing them. (You were probably also unsurprised at the "but there are no white newborns!" responses.)

I'm really surprised no one has brought up the oral sex aspect of circumcision, i.e. the "unusual" reason Dan Savage approves of it and had it done to his son - as a gift to all the people that will one day give his son head, and as a gift to his son... so that he can get more head. 😉

I was waiting to see if anyone would bring this up! I know plenty of girls who wouldn't let an uncut penis anywhere near their mouth. Sex and the City, episode 21.

Just saying. I still don't have an informed opinion on this issue other than the fact that at this point in my life, uncut penises gross me out. Obviously that's a personal issue and not a reason to make a decision about my future medical practices 😳

 

[noonday]

I think I said something about, if the person truly looks so unusual that they are likely to have social repercussions from it, or has had a disease or accident that has disfigured them, I don't have a problem with performing a cosmetic procedure; it would be therapeutic. However, if it really is just to look "prettier" when the person is already average-to-pretty, I simply don't see the need. That person would probably benefit more from self-esteem counseling than plastic surgery.

Note that I believe people have the right to have elective cosmetic surgery for whatever reason they choose - it's just that I wouldn't want to perform them.

i will admit to likely being the origin of the "vanity" comment, and will now elaborate. i basically agree with this above. it's the difference between fixing/reconstructing, etc and just ego. for example, fixing cleft lips is fantastic to me, as is, say, reconstructing a breast post mastectomy, fixing a really poorly healed broken nose, etc. and sure, go ahead and do whatever you want, but i just have a moral block at performing things like facelifts, breast augmentation, liposuction, etc. it's my thing, i just don't agree with it, because i think it comes from poor self image and awful evil media/cultural pressure and that we as humans are all built a little differently, and instead of trying to all look like a tv star, we should be proud of our own unique beauties.

as for things like facelifts, i think aging is also beautiful, and our culture wrongly makes it seem ugly and dirty and wrong. wrinkles are something to be proud of...laugh lines and crows feet are marks fo a joyful life well lived. grey hair is gorgeous. i don't like that people in our society fight the natural process of aging so desperately.

all that said, again, i don't think any of it should be banned. i just won't do it. and i lament the loss of good doctor-hours that could go to basic medical care for people without any to doing things like pectoral implants.

 

[MirrorTodd]

I gotta say if any teens are getting teased about being uncut in the "locker room," there's always the cock-gazing comeback. i.e. "well queer, stop looking at my penis." That will shut them up. Being uncut, I can say that I have never been teased about that. I have been teased about the color of my skin though.

 

[browniegirl86]

I gotta say if any teens are getting teased about being uncut in the "locker room," there's always the cock-gazing comeback. i.e. "well queer, stop looking at my penis." That will shut them up. Being uncut, I can say that I have never been teased about that. I have been teased about the color of my skin though.

Obviously you've never been teased about your sexual orientation either.

 

[bbas]

I gotta say if any teens are getting teased about being uncut in the "locker room," there's always the cock-gazing comeback. i.e. "well queer, stop looking at my penis." That will shut them up. Being uncut, I can say that I have never been teased about that. I have been teased about the color of my skin though.

I agree. Most schools do not require students to take showers anymore after gym class or whatever like they used to, so I don't see why this would be an issue.

 

[bbas]

But now you're just proving my point. If you believe that a fetus is a separate human being with legal rights, than you can't say 'rape is a different story'. How would it be right for the mother to have her 'baby' killed because she was raped? You'd be justifying murder!

Your comment implies that a woman should be forced to carry her pregnancy to term as punishment for having sex with her boyfriend....um, what about the many many many older married couples who use birth control that occasionally fails, and decide to have an abortion? My mother would be one of those! Should she have to 'live with the consequences' of having sex with my dad?

Birth control is not 100% effective, and couples know that there is still a chance that a pregnancy may result. So yes, you should live with the consequences. The fact that the pregnancy happened my mistake is not a good enough justification to kill the fetus.

 

[MahlerROCKS]

I was waiting to see if anyone would bring this up! I know plenty of girls who wouldn't let an uncut penis anywhere near their mouth. Sex and the City, episode 21.

Just saying. I still don't have an informed opinion on this issue other than the fact that at this point in my life, uncut penises gross me out. Obviously that's a personal issue and not a reason to make a decision about my future medical practices 😳

I'm gay, but I feel exactly the same way: the uncut men I know don't really take care of it properly, and it can smell. Plus the foreskin can fallback during penetration forcing you to takeoff the condom, pull the foreskin back, put a new condom on, and start again--its an unnecessary hassle

 

[MirrorTodd]

Obviously you've never been teased about your sexual orientation either.

I don't get this statement. Is it an insult? What is my sexual orientation? Should I have been teased about being straight? Why is it obvious? 😕

 

[MirrorTodd]

I'm gay, but I feel exactly the same way: the uncut men I know don't really take care of it properly, and it can smell. Plus the foreskin can fallback during penetration forcing you to takeoff the condom, pull the foreskin back, put a new condom on, and start again--its an unnecessary hassle

You can't really use the smell argument because everyone smells. The only time people don't smell is after a shower.

 

[MahlerROCKS]

You can't really use the smell argument because everyone smells. The only time people don't smell is after a shower.

Have YOU ever had an uncut penis in your mouth?

 

[MirrorTodd]

Have YOU ever had an uncut penis in your mouth?

No That is one of the funniest questions I've read on SDN. Contrary to popular belief, not all male pre-meds are gay.

 

[Brickhouse]

Have YOU ever had an uncut penis in your mouth?

Well I'm sure I have....oh, you weren't asking me. 😳