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Again, get off your high horse dude. Everyone is dishonest. Everyone. Even you.
Are you telling everyone in this thread that you've never been dishonest? lol
I exaggerated my EC's on AMCAS and I got called on it.
- Thread starter METTA WORLD PEACE
- Start date
Again, get off your high horse dude. Everyone is dishonest. Everyone. Even you.
Are you telling everyone in this thread that you've never been dishonest? lol
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And let's remember, the hours is the exaggeration that the OP got caught for. Not the only one they made (as admitted earlier).
Do you honestly not see a difference in a lie and an omission? You don't walk into a company for an interview and say "I'm here because I want money!", because that's a given... Obviously you need a job, you're there applying. They want other, more personal things.
Personal statements and secondaries aren't a place to make shallow self commentary. It's about selling yourself honestly. Saying "I've published 3 papers" when you have 2 is a lie. If you have no papers you don't tell the school "I have zero papers." You don't talk about it, you mention other good qualities you do have. It's not an evil omission, you just highlight your strengths... Actual strengths, not fabricated ones.
Again, if you can't see why what you did is wrong, I imagine you will be an absolute gem of an employee someday... Peer pressure exists everywhere, at some point you have to use your spine and not rationalize a wrong by assuming "everyone" is doing it.
Do you honestly not see a difference in a lie and an omission? You don't walk into a company for an interview and say "I'm here because I want money!", because that's a given... Obviously you need a job, you're there applying. They want other, more personal things.
Personal statements and secondaries aren't a place to make shallow self commentary. It's about selling yourself honestly. Saying "I've published 3 papers" when you have 2 is a lie. If you have no papers you don't tell the school "I have zero papers." You don't talk about it, you mention other good qualities you do have. It's not an evil omission, you just highlight your strengths... Actual strengths, not fabricated ones.
Again, if you can't see why what you did is wrong, I imagine you will be an absolute gem of an employee someday... Peer pressure exists everywhere, at some point you have to use your spine and not rationalize a wrong by assuming "everyone" is doing it.
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I fundamentally disagree.
The ethics of lying is based around depriving others of vital information. That is, fundamentally, why lying is unethical. If you deprive someone of the spirit of the truth, even without explicitly lying, you are committing an act as fundamentally unethical as lying itself. You can argue someone has no right to certain information, but in this process the issue of right is irrelevant; you have no right whatsoever to be disingenuous to a medical school.
Lets say someone disengenuously and maliciously "spins the truth" in a way that leads to a patients death. Or, more practically, write an HPI in a way that spins a patient as a blatant drug-seeker because he was rude and combative without proof. On the other hand, what about a white lie where someone says "you look good in those pants" when the person really doesn't. I think its generally agreeable that the first sin is greater than the second. In other words, it is not the explicit act of lying that is wrong, but the deprivation of of knowledge and information. The degree of wrongness is measured not in "how much of a lie is this?" but in "how crucial is the information being deprived".
Now, lets say OP says he has 250 hours v. 100 hours. That probably isn't a huge difference; it won't keep him out of medical school. However, answering the "Why DO" question with perfect truth of "I'm not competitive at MD" would. In other words, the information in the latter lie is more valued by the ADCOMs. The second lie/"spin" knowingly and intentionally deprives the ADCOM more fundamental/crucial information; the second is make or break information, OP's lie is not.
I hope I conveyed my ethical considerations satisfactorily for you.
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That's what I would do to keep things kosher. Just draw lines of delineation on where things changed. Truthfully too, a number of people have obtained jobs out of volunteering experiences--especially if they took the volunteering seriously and proved themselves to be diligent and conscientious. I am not saying that should necessarily be one's motive for volunteering; but it does happen, and it is can be a good thing.
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Also, the earlier stated example on using a spread sheet is a good idea. Getting signed off on a regular basis is a good idea too. Beyond any of that, doing a great job and having a good attitude can go a long way to making the experiences good all the way around.
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We have a budding Dr. House here!
Honestly I think it's extremely unlikely that only a handful applicants do what the OP did. I don't think they're horrible people who don't belong in medicine, but I also don't have much sympathy for them when they're caught. It's stories like these that will make future applicants less inclined to do the same, which can't be a bad thing.
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There's honestly little reason for people to lie on here (though I know many do). People are looking for advice, why would someone tell lies when seeking advice on that situation?
Are you saying ignore the importance of principle and having integrity, b/c "everyone else does wrong" to that degree, or so you think?
See, this is the kind of thing that makes people lose trust in other people or in the case here, students. Not everyone is going to out and out lie. Not everyone is going to so embellish.
Do you really think those on committees or even those hiring folks for positions can't see through BS? Yes, some folks that are great actors and have temporary good luck will get through, but eventually people show what they are. Authenticity is key. Why is what one does or what one wants to do more important than what a person is or has become?
This why people mistakenly think that being (title) a professor or a physician or a scientist or even a president makes someone a better human being than say a person with a janitor's job. Indeed, the janitor certainly may be many times over a person of greater quality and integrity than the other "professionals."
Titles don't make people who they are.
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This is what people who lie and cheat tell themselves. It's a rationalization technique.
I'm happy to find out that the people who do this sometimes get caught.
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what did you expect us to tell you after you tell us that you cheated on your amcas app? applaud you?
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No. I'm just saying that people here shouldn't assume I'll be a horrible doc just because I fudged on my hours a bit, which a lot of people do whether they want to admit it or not
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and how exactly did I "cheat" on AMCAS mr. connery? Exaggerating does not equal lying or cheating.
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Three amazing posts! Well done OP!
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Lol let me clarify one thing for the people that talk about skirting things on the PEx:
ALL doctors do that. Let me emphasize. ALL. When on the exam, doctors don't check about mood/affect/content/thought process yet all these are usually checked off on normal for all patients. Lung sounds for a simple ankle sprain- although breath sounds aren't checked off, things like no respiratory distress and wheezes/rales/ronchi are marked negative. In terms of Skin, almost always is skin marked dry and warm with no rashes unless there's a rash complaint. The doctor isn't inspecting every aspect of the body for a rash.
Review of Systems:
Most doctors check off far more ROS markers than they ask. One doc might ask: You have fevers/chills/n/v/d, neck pain, back pain, abd pain, urinary sx. But they will negatively check off fevers, wheezes, fatigue, sore throat, sneezing, rhinorrhea, cough, constipation, bowel/bladder incontinence, skin rash.
This isn't just one doctor, this isn't just ER, this is everywhere you go. FM, ER, IM ect.
I'm not saying what OP did was correct, and I'm not accusing anybody here of doing the same, but at one point in our lives, we have all lied. I know plenty of people that have over-exaggerated their applications in the past years, got into medical school. Hell I know one man who blatantly wrote an activity he didn't, was accepted into Cornell, graduated #2 in his class, and now is doing a radiology residency at Brigham and Woman's hospital at Harvard. I know one of the docs I work with over-exaggerate the hours he worked as a Nurse prior to starting medical school by I'd say a good 1.5x hours, and he's the head of the ER where I work and probably one of the best doctors I've worked with. As House would say, "everybody lies". Is it ethical? Absolutely not. 100% not ethical. But everybody does it whether you would like to think it or not.
Prime example: At an interview at X-COM, I was talking to another app about the book DO's by Gevits, talked about how I loved reading the book yada yada yada, he said he read the book so I started mentioning specific parts of the book and he had the deer in the headlights look. He lied, I'm sure he skimmed the book. Now my interviewer had her acceptance letter to the DO school she attended along with a cute letter her nephew wrote when she was accepted into medical school in that book so she had an emotional significance attached to the book. I was able to talk about it with her extensively. I'm sure if somebody who didn't read the book interviewed that guy, he would BS it enough to talk about why that propelled him into DO. Ethical? That's debatable in this case, but it worked for him. It happens far more frequently than you think it does and it all points back to the way the system is structured.
Another ethical question to ask:
If you lied to your s/o or lied to your parents or lied to your friends about something- does that predispose you to be a ****ty doctor because you're unethical and you're a liar? If anybody comes to me and says that they have not lied to their friends, or their family, or their parents about something in the past 4 years then I am going to find it so hard pressed to believe that and I will definitely think they are so disillusioned from reality that they don't notice that they are lying.
Point is, everybody lies. That does not mean you are going to be a bad doctor or an incomplete doctor.
ALL doctors do that. Let me emphasize. ALL. When on the exam, doctors don't check about mood/affect/content/thought process yet all these are usually checked off on normal for all patients. Lung sounds for a simple ankle sprain- although breath sounds aren't checked off, things like no respiratory distress and wheezes/rales/ronchi are marked negative. In terms of Skin, almost always is skin marked dry and warm with no rashes unless there's a rash complaint. The doctor isn't inspecting every aspect of the body for a rash.
Review of Systems:
Most doctors check off far more ROS markers than they ask. One doc might ask: You have fevers/chills/n/v/d, neck pain, back pain, abd pain, urinary sx. But they will negatively check off fevers, wheezes, fatigue, sore throat, sneezing, rhinorrhea, cough, constipation, bowel/bladder incontinence, skin rash.
This isn't just one doctor, this isn't just ER, this is everywhere you go. FM, ER, IM ect.
I'm not saying what OP did was correct, and I'm not accusing anybody here of doing the same, but at one point in our lives, we have all lied. I know plenty of people that have over-exaggerated their applications in the past years, got into medical school. Hell I know one man who blatantly wrote an activity he didn't, was accepted into Cornell, graduated #2 in his class, and now is doing a radiology residency at Brigham and Woman's hospital at Harvard. I know one of the docs I work with over-exaggerate the hours he worked as a Nurse prior to starting medical school by I'd say a good 1.5x hours, and he's the head of the ER where I work and probably one of the best doctors I've worked with. As House would say, "everybody lies". Is it ethical? Absolutely not. 100% not ethical. But everybody does it whether you would like to think it or not.
Prime example: At an interview at X-COM, I was talking to another app about the book DO's by Gevits, talked about how I loved reading the book yada yada yada, he said he read the book so I started mentioning specific parts of the book and he had the deer in the headlights look. He lied, I'm sure he skimmed the book. Now my interviewer had her acceptance letter to the DO school she attended along with a cute letter her nephew wrote when she was accepted into medical school in that book so she had an emotional significance attached to the book. I was able to talk about it with her extensively. I'm sure if somebody who didn't read the book interviewed that guy, he would BS it enough to talk about why that propelled him into DO. Ethical? That's debatable in this case, but it worked for him. It happens far more frequently than you think it does and it all points back to the way the system is structured.
Another ethical question to ask:
If you lied to your s/o or lied to your parents or lied to your friends about something- does that predispose you to be a ****ty doctor because you're unethical and you're a liar? If anybody comes to me and says that they have not lied to their friends, or their family, or their parents about something in the past 4 years then I am going to find it so hard pressed to believe that and I will definitely think they are so disillusioned from reality that they don't notice that they are lying.
Point is, everybody lies. That does not mean you are going to be a bad doctor or an incomplete doctor.
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Thank you?
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So you lied, got caught, and not only do you think you didn't do anything unusual or wrong you don't even think you lied.
There are far too many decent people applying to accept someone like you.
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Your whole argument falls apart when you realize that your definition of lying is one you fabricated to justify your position (see bolded in your post) and has no bearing on what that word really means.
lie
noun
noun: lie; plural noun: lies
- 1.
an intentionally false statement.
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Don't make me sic @efle on you!
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I just love that holier than thou attitude.
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You could try being a little holier. You might get less of that attitude.
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I kinda wanna get #rekt here since i'm curious if anyone can make me second guess myself.
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Do you not understand that many of us do not lie on our apps and don't consider it appropriate? It's not holier than thou, it's the damn truth. You're the outlier here, not the people who have commented
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I think people who explicitly fabricate entries up are possibly outliers, possibly more common than that. Exaggerating hours? There's no way that's a tiny percentage. Med school applicants would have to be way, way more honest than the average person for that to be true, and I don't see any reason why that would be the case.
Wow, how is documenting by exception necessarily lying?
Now, if the patient ends up presenting w/ something that was missed b/c of such documentation, the physician could be in some trouble--such as, say an RN or RRT picked up on something that was missed on their assessment/PE. And say they documented that they made the physician aware of this, and the doc doesn't follow up on it. Certainly this might/may become a problem. It depends on what it is.
But in general, and back to the point, documentation by exception on focus exams or even general exams is not the same thing--unless something important was left out or ignored on purpose--or something was exaggerated on purpose. There's a clear distinction here. I am baffled by your example.
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People aren't judging you for one exaggeration. Personally, I'm judging you for poor understanding of what a lie vs exaggeration is, your immature method of rationalization (everyone is doing it), the fact you admit to exaggerating multiple things but only got caught for one, etc. I'm not saying you'd make a bad doctor. I do think that someone who gets somewhere by lying could displace someone who is honest in their application, and the honest person (in a perfect world) deserves the position more.
Also, it's worth looking up stories about people who fabricated credentials, had successful careers, and were later found out and fired. Doing a lot of good doesn't undo poor actions, and the lack of comprehension that what you did was wrong makes me wonder what else you would do, and how long it would take to get caught or grow up enough.
Even once you've matriculated, I'm near positive you can be dismissed if they admitted you under false pretenses. For your own sake, stop trying to rationalize why what you did was "ok", and understand that you have a lot to lose the further into this you get. Professional misconduct can end your career, flat out.
So far we only know about the doubling number of hours, so... In total, how many "exaggerations" did you make?
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I tell myself that the majority of ambitious little sociopathic premeds are weeded out in the process. I hope my optimism is warranted...
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eh, I wouldn't call 100 --->250 hours an exaggeration. 70 ---> 100 hours is an exaggeration
I would also think that people would be afraid of the repercussions. Falsifying hours is grounds for dismissal from all the jobs and volunteer gigs I've done. Is it really wise to try that on a med school app that basically determines your life?
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@METTA WORLD PEACE
You keep saying holier than thou attitude as if we're looking down on you as a person. This is not the case. You're getting a lot of backlash because you nearly tripled your volunteer hours, citing an amount that most of us would have to give up weeks of our free time, energy and (in my case) academic standing to achieve. Then you're perpetuating some rhetoric that most applicants quote on quote "embellish" (i.e. lie) on the application too, and it's not fair that you're the only one that got caught. You'd be hard pressed to convince anyone, SDN member or ADCOM, that you "rounded up" to that number, and you'd probably get the same response from AMCAS if you stuck to your guns about it. I'm not going to cite how you'll act once you're a doctor because I don't have that sort of foresight, but you absolutely deserve to get caught and the other 2015-2016 applicants this cycle have an understandable right to be upset that there are people out there claiming equal accomplishments without the necessitated sacrifice.
You keep saying holier than thou attitude as if we're looking down on you as a person. This is not the case. You're getting a lot of backlash because you nearly tripled your volunteer hours, citing an amount that most of us would have to give up weeks of our free time, energy and (in my case) academic standing to achieve. Then you're perpetuating some rhetoric that most applicants quote on quote "embellish" (i.e. lie) on the application too, and it's not fair that you're the only one that got caught. You'd be hard pressed to convince anyone, SDN member or ADCOM, that you "rounded up" to that number, and you'd probably get the same response from AMCAS if you stuck to your guns about it. I'm not going to cite how you'll act once you're a doctor because I don't have that sort of foresight, but you absolutely deserve to get caught and the other 2015-2016 applicants this cycle have an understandable right to be upset that there are people out there claiming equal accomplishments without the necessitated sacrifice.
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Lol the #1 thing they teach is to document if you actually examined. You can't examine a wheeze/rale/ronchi without actually listening to the lungs. There are doctors that will absolutely scold the residents if they mark lungs CTAB or skin normal unless they actually examined it.
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Also documenting by exception if you did not actually examine the part in question is lying. If you're doing an ankle sprain and you say no respiratory distress, TM's normal, oropharynx clear, no wheezes/rales/ronchi, no skin rash, mood and affect normal, PERLLA, EOMI (though this is not as bad because it's obvious to tell from talking). Now how many doctors will check TM's, oropharynx, the skin, lungs, heart, eyes on a simple ankle sprain? Almost NONE because it is a waste of time, yet they will overdocument and overbill.
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http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/peps.12079/abstract
I've seen many studies suggesting that individuals who are good at "weeding out BS" like hiring managers and cops are actually less likely to correctly guess when an interviewee is lying. This is one example, but there have been other studies. My understanding is that the self-perception of competence in that field actually clouds judgement, whereas strangers off the street just guess and catch the lie 50/50.
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Well I meant exaggeration in general, wasn't specifically trying to defend the OP. What most people probably do is a similar extreme of exaggeration but with entries and verifiers that won't be able to prove them wrong.
I think you're right that fear keeps people honest. But fear of being the OP's position is different from an internal belief that any amount of dishonesty is wrong even if it would help you get into medical school. His mistake was stupidly exaggerating hours in a situation where he will be caught if anyone looks into it. I think a lot of people are exaggerating but doing a better job or just not getting caught. Even people who are more honest than average when put into an insanely competitive situation like this will be pushed to lie. It's not a good thing, but I don't think for a second that he is the exception.
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I would love to see if there was a study done on this too.
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My system has a little "normal" button which checks off the entire PE section and even the entire ROS. Most of the physicians just click what they found in the ROS and then use the normal button to respond negatively to every other possible option.
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same. The amount of times i've been told use the "all systems negative otherwise" on the exam and ROS is absurd.
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OP and whoever else, do what you want. Many haven't done it, and many of us will not do it. For better or worse, I'm an open book. What will be will be. I have to sleep with me--to "sleep the sleep of the just."
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Everything on my app was 100% honest. Maybe that's one of the reasons I only got two IIs.
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I think between personal morals and fear of being caught and blacklisted, there isn't a gross amount of app liars out there. But again, there's no way to determine that, so who knows
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Of course it's a joke. It's also a joke how seriously some people take it. A college kid who exaggerates hours isn't going to end up killing ICU patients (I can't believe I actually have to say that)
OP: 100 hours was just fine. Almost tripling the hours, and more importantly not giving contact info was the big mistake here. High risk, low reward.
How does this alter my point? One might certainly examine and hear nothing by normal lung sounds--or at times, some patients do not give the best inspiratory or expiratory efforts--or at the very least, their very diminished lungs sounds are a result of long-term smoking, and while not normal, are nothing new. And this is why you cluster data as well. You don't just look at one piece of examination or assessment in absolute isolation.
Again, however, this has nothing to do with my point or the irrelevant posting of yours.
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Relax.
Being a little less than honest about volunteer hours is not the same thing as faking credentials nor will it lead to doing something of that nature. Also I never said what I did was ok...just that a lot of premeds probably do it although they would never admit to it.
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welp, I've not lied on any part of my application, but being an older non-trad, I have many, many hours listed under research and volunteering, and I am now a little paranoid I'll be reported. The good news is that it's all verifiable. I guess I'd be peeved if I was reported without first having had the opportunity to provide documentation. That, and I under-estimated my hours, but I have been engaged in clinical work for 8 years now, so even rounding down by 1000s still leaves large numbers which feel inflated (until you look at the years and realize it makes sense...hopefully). Ugh. Definitely time to contact all the refs and confirm hours to make sure we are on the same page. SDN, always good for a little dose of anxiety. At least the remedy suffices...
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A lot of people who don't get into medical school would make perfectly adequate physicians.
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I understand why you would feel the pressure to do it, but it would have been in your best interest to take a moment and correct your impulse. It's not good to exaggerate/lie, and in this case, you risked a lot for little reward. 100 hours would have been plenty, and here you are in a bind. Play the cards the best you can, and learn from this and don't ever do it again.
Well, here is a proverb for you. This reality comes to fruition in due time. Give it time, and you will see it. "Even a child is known by his/her actions-- if her/his behavior is pure and upright."
