I/O Psych Information

[HawkJ2010]

Hey everyone,

I'm currently attended my senior year in UG for psychology and have currently been debating going to graduate school for I/O psychology.

I had a few questions for you pertaining to the field of I/O psych (sorry if some of these questions seem a bit repetitive I tried my best to use the search function).


From my research online I see that you can either get your Master's or Doctorate's in I/O. The main only real difference I know between the two programs is that a Master's degree will put you into a more "hands-on" career, so to speak, in that you will have more face-time with your clients where are those with Doctorate's happen to be the guys & gals who do the research portion of the work. Is there any truth to that?

Also, internet rumors have me believing that getting a Master's degree is less advantageous in that there are too many graduates to fill the limited number of positions. So, would going to school for an additional 2 years and getting a Doctorate's be the better choice? Don't get me wrong I like doing the research in psychology however I would much more appreciate the face-time and application I have heard of in the Master's field.

One other thing that I strongly want to look into when it comes to I/O psychology is... do you have a life outside the job? I am assuming that I/O psychologists work with companies during their operating hours so a fixed schedule would be the expected. 40 hours a week? Weekends/Holidays off? The only reason I ask is because I would like to have a family one day and be very involved with my wife and kids.

Another topic of concern is which graduate school to go to. I see websites have schools listed in the top 25 in the nation and so forth but how pertinent is it that I matriculate into one of these universities? I have been looking into a few in-state and local universities whom have the graduate programs (Seattle Pacific University, Portland State University). I know they are not top 25 material but how much will that affect my chances of getting a job in the future? I am really interested in Seattle Pacific because it is a faith-based university.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and hopefully answer any of the questions.

Have a great day.

Hawk

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[ala2246]

In order to know which path is right for you, you really need to flesh out what it is you want to do. Are you interested in working for an organization as an in-house expert or do you want to consult independently? Do you want to work with domestic organizations or international organizations? Do you want to work with non-profits or for profits? Do you want to do clinical work or non-clinical work? Are you interested in doing research? Do you want to teach at any point? Once you've answered those questions, you'll have a better understanding of which direction to go in.

You're best bet may be to schedule a face to face visit with a professional in the field. You can ask questions about the field and help flesh out what direction it is you want to go in. Also, answering the questions mentioned above will help you decide which schools to look at. If you want to practice, but never teach, your options will be different than if you want to teach at the post secondary level.

I would also suggest finding a mentor. Someone who can help you figure out what your strengths are and how you can turn those into profitable skills.

Good luck!

 

[HawkJ2010]

In order to know which path is right for you, you really need to flesh out what it is you want to do. Are you interested in working for an organization as an in-house expert or do you want to consult independently?

If possible I would like to work within an organization and gain experience. If the desire arises I may then branch off into my own private consultation practice.

Do you want to work with domestic organizations or international organizations?

To be 100% honest I do not know the pro's and con's of each but at the moment I would assume domestic organizations.

Do you want to work with non-profits or for profits?

Profits.

Do you want to do clinical work or non-clinical work?
Are you interested in doing research?

By clinical I assume you mean interacting with the administrative staff of a company? If so, then yes. I do not particularly want to be in the research field. Which is what I heard the Doctorate's folks are stuck... the downside of the Master's I hear is the ability for promotions as well as being hired due to too many applicants.

Do you want to teach at any point?

Again I don't entirely know if this is possible, however, I would actually like to consult in the I/O field for some time and then turn around and share my experiences and knowledge through teaching at a college/university.

Once you've answered those questions, you'll have a better understanding of which direction to go in.

You're best bet may be to schedule a face to face visit with a professional in the field. You can ask questions about the field and help flesh out what direction it is you want to go in. Also, answering the questions mentioned above will help you decide which schools to look at. If you want to practice, but never teach, your options will be different than if you want to teach at the post secondary level.

I would also suggest finding a mentor. Someone who can help you figure out what your strengths are and how you can turn those into profitable skills.

Good luck![/QUOTE]

Thanks for the advice on finding a mentor... the only problem I have is that my school does not have any true I/O psychologists. I may be able to contact a few in a graduate program that is across the river.

Thanks again!

 

[ala2246]

"By clinical I assume you mean interacting with the administrative staff of a company? If so, then yes. I do not particularly want to be in the research field. Which is what I heard the Doctorate's folks are stuck... the downside of the Master's I hear is the ability for promotions as well as being hired due to too many applicants."

By clinical I mean, do you want to assess/diagnose and treat mental disorders?
As far as having a hard time getting hired or promoted due to only having a Masters, my experience has been that while education is important, your experience in the field is just as, if not more, valuable. Just having the degree isn't going to get you the job or promotion.

Having a doctorate does not confine you to the field research, but you mentioned that you may want to teach at the college/university level after you've built up your experience, and most colleges/universities don't employ full time core faculty with a Masters degree. However, some professional schools do, so you would have to consider where it is you intend to share your knowledge.

If you haven't considered it already, check out APA division 14 which is the division devoted to industrial and organizational psychology. You can find it here: http://www.siop.org/. You can find a lot of answers to your questions and if you join as a student you can pay reduced fees. This membership will give you the opportunity to network with others in the field. You can ask questions of leaders in the field as well as talk with other students who may have asked the same questions you have and be able to lead you in the right direction.

 

[HawkJ2010]

"By clinical I assume you mean interacting with the administrative staff of a company? If so, then yes. I do not particularly want to be in the research field. Which is what I heard the Doctorate's folks are stuck... the downside of the Master's I hear is the ability for promotions as well as being hired due to too many applicants."

By clinical I mean, do you want to assess/diagnose and treat mental disorders?
As far as having a hard time getting hired or promoted due to only having a Masters, my experience has been that while education is important, your experience in the field is just as, if not more, valuable. Just having the degree isn't going to get you the job or promotion.

Having a doctorate does not confine you to the field research, but you mentioned that you may want to teach at the college/university level after you've built up your experience, and most colleges/universities don't employ full time core faculty with a Masters degree. However, some professional schools do, so you would have to consider where it is you intend to share your knowledge.

If you haven't considered it already, check out APA division 14 which is the division devoted to industrial and organizational psychology. You can find it here: http://www.siop.org/. You can find a lot of answers to your questions and if you join as a student you can pay reduced fees. This membership will give you the opportunity to network with others in the field. You can ask questions of leaders in the field as well as talk with other students who may have asked the same questions you have and be able to lead you in the right direction.

Okay. The only real reason I am asking about the Master's degree and Doctorate's was to see if there the Master's program has any real advantage over the Doctorates. I have been leaning more towards the PhD for multiple reasons (i.e. I am young and the extra education could only be beneficial, PhD programs seem to provide more extensive field experience, PhD's tend to open up more opportunities to individuals, and the reason that I someday would like to teach).

I have heard that PhD's confine you to strictly research and I have also heard that you can bounce between research and application of the science. I think a balanced share between the two would be in my best interest, however, if I had to choose from the two I would go with application in the work field.

So do you believe there are biases depending on which graduate programs you enter? I know my top choices are not ranked among the best in the nation and am curious if that would be extremely detrimental to my career success? In addition I will most likely apply to just about everywhere I believe I have a shot of being accepted (which I will determine post-GRE) so I guess I'll let fate take me to whichever school!

Thanks for the site as well.

 

[aequitasveritas]

If you go I/O u should only accept funded programs that leave you with zero debt. Do not even think about professional schools for I/O, fringe schools, or bottom tier schools.

A masters can be useful, but good luck getting it funded.

My stance is that I/O psych is incredibly boring. I started a doctoral program in I/O and moved to Clinical after 1 semester.

If you want to be in business...go for a top notch MBA

if you want to have something to do with the directing, research and "life coach" type stuff....go for a fully funded I/O psych program.

 

[HawkJ2010]

If you go I/O u should only accept funded programs that leave you with zero debt. Do not even think about professional schools for I/O, fringe schools, or bottom tier schools.

How do find out if the school is considered fully-funded? I have done a little bit of research and the only thing I can find about this topic is assistantships where the school pays you a certain amount each year. But that does not sound like a "scholarship and stipend" kind of deal that you seem to be talking about.


A masters can be useful, but good luck getting it funded.

My stance is that I/O psych is incredibly boring. I started a doctoral program in I/O and moved to Clinical after 1 semester.

What did you find that was so boring about it? I have been thinking about clinical psych as well.

If you want to be in business...go for a top notch MBA

if you want to have something to do with the directing, research and "life coach" type stuff....go for a fully funded I/O psych program.

^This is what I really want to do... now to find some fully funded programs!

Thanks for the info!

 

[Oca]

My stance is that I/O psych is incredibly boring. I started a doctoral program in I/O and moved to Clinical after 1 semester.

Aequitasveritas, I am interested that you switched to the clinical department. I am in my first semester of an I/O doctoral program and am quickly learning the same thing: that it is boring. I have been seriously considering changing my focus to clinical, but I am not sure how this would work. I am fully funded by the I/O department, so I don't think a quick transfer would be possible unless I reapplied completely to the clinical program next year. Needless to say, this would probably create a lot of awkward tension within the department. Can you tell me a little about your experience switching over to clinical? Thanks in advance!

 

[aequitasveritas]

Aequitasveritas, I am interested that you switched to the clinical department. I am in my first semester of an I/O doctoral program and am quickly learning the same thing: that it is boring. I have been seriously considering changing my focus to clinical, but I am not sure how this would work. I am fully funded by the I/O department, so I don't think a quick transfer would be possible unless I reapplied completely to the clinical program next year. Needless to say, this would probably create a lot of awkward tension within the department. Can you tell me a little about your experience switching over to clinical? Thanks in advance!

You have a unique situation. You're transferring from a financially no-risk position: a fully funded program.

I was at a professional school where there was no funding for I/O, and the intellectual pedigree was shall we say...wanting. So there was the financial gamble of student loans on top of the mundane subjects of Org. Beh., Conflict Management, Frickin Diversity training etc. It just felt like much ado about nothing.

I had to take some clinical classes at the graduate level as part of my program req., and I found the experience to be a reminder of my undergrad aspirations to be a clinician. Then I had a clinical professor tell me i was wasting my time in I/O; that I should gravitate toward the type of work that reflects the way my mind works.

It was seamless, as I had some ins at the clinical department, and it was a pro-school.

I think the truth comes to this: if you want to be a consultant or researcher in any field of psych you can do this with a clinical degree. But, if you want to see clients & have a private practice there is only one degree that will get you there.

For me, it was an easy decision. I just found the new-speak to be tiresome and boring in I/O. Most importantly, I felt that I was learning in a legitimate field in clinical. I/O made me feel like a fraud...rather than a Freud.

If this is something you truly wish to do, eff your department; go for it. This is your life we're talking about. If it's an issue you're not sure of, get some consultation from trusted sources in both sides and then take some time to mull it over.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Great post by Aequitasveritas. I'll just add my stuff to their post. My disclaimer is that I formerly worked in the Corp Consulting world, though my focus was more on the O than the I...so YMMV.

If you go I/O u should only accept funded programs that leave you with zero debt. Do not even think about professional schools for I/O, fringe schools, or bottom tier schools.

The Corp World is even pickier about where people were trained, so you should only attend a well-regarded Psychology I/O program. Some universities (residential and online) will throw together an I/O program for revenue generation, so it will be really important to find out where graduates have gone on to work. You will want to talk to these graduates and see how easy/hard it was for them to secure employment. You'll want to know what kind of debt they acrued, and you'll also want to talk to them about what they do in their job.

A masters can be useful, but good luck getting it funded.

Most MS programs at most universities subsidize the Ph.D. programs, so it will be difficult to find a university that will actually fund an I/O degree at the MS level. You may have some luck at a university that does not offer a Ph.D. in it.

My stance is that I/O psych is incredibly boring. I started a doctoral program in I/O and moved to Clinical after 1 semester.

While there can be some variance in I/O programs, the good programs are not "counseling for business", but instead "Research & Stats applied to Business." Some program will lean more to one side than the other (Industrial v. Organizational), so it will be important to figure out what you want to study.

The best I/O programs out there (at least at the Ph.D. level) will require 3-4+ stats courses. "Face time" with your client is much more about information gathering, not touchy feely stuff. If you see a lot of required touchy-feely classes, you most likely are not looking at the right type of program.

If you want to be in business...go for a top notch MBA
Absolutely. If you go this route, it better be at a Top 5-10 program (maybe Top 20 if you aren't going to work in a major city and/or at a major firm). Like I said, the Corp World is all about who you know and where you trained. The Corp. World is all about street cred., and the only way you get it is by doing it. Too many people think that an MBA will get them a 6-figure job, while the reality is that it may get your foot in the door to earn half of that for 2-3x the amount of work of another job.

There are THOUSANDS of newly minted MBAs each year, so unless you have a great niche and/or connections, it will be a fight for a job. Most places that hire newly minted MBAs will hire a bunch and let them fight it out. The last man/woman standing getting the promotion/position, and that is after working 70-80+ hr weeks for far less money that you expected.

if you want to have something to do with the directing, research and "life coach" type stuff....go for a fully funded I/O psych program.
This I disagree with, quite a bit...at least the life coach part. Life Coaching is mostly a sham in term and in practice. People who fancy themselves "corporate life coaches" or "C-level/Executive Coaches" are either very successful business people who decided to leave the Rat Race to mentor others (and get paid $$$ to do it), or someone trying to be that person. It sounds harsh, but the vast majority of people who try to do this have no business doing it. Most of the successful people that I know that do this (one of my former business mentors), only came to that position after having a successful business career. It is a very hard sell to any C-level person that you have anything to offer them if you haven't walked in their shoes and made your own successful path.

 

[aequitasveritas]

if you want to have something to do with the directing, research and "life coach" type stuff....go for a fully funded I/O psych program.
This I disagree with, quite a bit...at least the life coach part. Life Coaching is mostly a sham in term and in practice. People who fancy themselves "corporate life coaches" or "C-level/Executive Coaches" are either very successful business people who decided to leave the Rat Race to mentor others (and get paid $$$ to do it), or someone trying to be that person. It sounds harsh, but the vast majority of people who try to do this have no business doing it. Most of the successful people that I know that do this (one of my former business mentors), only came to that position after having a successful business career. It is a very hard sell to any C-level person that you have anything to offer them if you haven't walked in their shoes and made your own successful path.

I agree with your critique. What I meant, but did not state, was that those aspirations are conquerable with a funded degree (in other words, you don't need a fringe degree that "specializes" in "consulting"), which also has no risk of finance.

 

[tkuhug]

I recently took a class on Organizational Psychology. My professor completed his PhD in Social Psychology but said he hated the research aspect of graduate school. Luckily though, his research gained him some contacts with business consultants and he became interested in IO that way. He vouches that although helpful, you don't need a PhD in IO to become a consultant and stressed that for this particular field you really just learn by doing!

 

[PHinisheD]

I recently took a class on Organizational Psychology. My professor completed his PhD in Social Psychology but said he hated the research aspect of graduate school. Luckily though, his research gained him some contacts with business consultants and he became interested in IO that way. He vouches that although helpful, you don't need a PhD in IO to become a consultant and stressed that for this particular field you really just learn by doing!

I'm a clinical psychologist who has been trying for the past 2 years to transition into organizational consulting/coaching. It has been a challenge, to say the least. I've found PT work on the side, but I've had no FT job offers.

I think it's true that you don't need a PhD in I/O to get those jobs. But, from what I have seen, the vast majority of people in those positions have Master's degrees in I/O psych, HR, Org Development, or Business Admin (MBA's), and they have experience working in large organizations. I had thought that prospective employers would see my 6 years in a clinical PhD program as "equivalent" to work experience, but it doesn't work like that. In addition to psychological competencies (assessment, research, etc), they want you to have "business acumen". Clinical work does not easily translate.

If you don't know which field to go into, take some time and work in those fields, in a position where you can get to know people who do those jobs. Changing careers sucks.

 

[IOPsych]

I think therapist4change has done a very good job of describing I/O. I am ABD in I/O and I took 6 strict statistics and methodology courses as well as 2 industrial psychology courses that included a lot of statistics/methodology (criterion validation, etc.) and I have heard from a number of new professors (to our program) that our methods and statistics is rather weak compared to their programs.

I knew I wanted to go applied from the beginning of my program and because I worked for a consulting firm that only hired PhDs as consultants I was under the impression that was usually the case. As I advanced through my program I realized this was not necessarily the case and most firms don't care if you have a master's or PhD. However, if you are competing against a PhD applicant as an MS grad you are also, more often than not, competing against someone with a much broader range of skills and knowledge (This is assuming experience is similar).

I am glad I went with a PhD because I am very interested in the statistics and methodology side which you often do not get in a master's program. But, I do know people from our masters program that have jobs @ IBM, Deloitte, etc.

Also, PhDs can be hands on too. There are many PhDs in my org. that are delivery consultants. However, there are very few individuals with an MS that serve an R&D function or a solution development function.

 

[PsychBA]

Interesting stuff.

With my useless BA degree under my belt, I'm looking at options and I really can't see myself doing a PhD. Especially given all these negative things I am hearing about clinical psych. So a masters in I/O is another possibility I am examining. But three things:

One, people complaining it's "boring" and I want to be stimulated, challenged. For instance, my previous thread was about "drive" and I am very interesting in understanding why some people are so driven. That is far from boring to me, to say the least.

Two, I'm not a fan of the "touchy feely" stuff in clinical psych--I can't handle it and get easily overwhelmed. But I'm no cold-hearted business person either, not even close. I'm an INFP (look up MBTI). I'm an idealist who likes harmony, cooperation, and people getting along. Finding the right subfield in social sciences has been a challenge, and I wonder if I/O psych is worth considering.

Third, I don't like public speaking. If it's occasional and everything else about the work is great, I suppose I could learn to live with it. Also, I don't like doing the firm handshake, suits and ties all day long, the overconfident front, bull****ting people and all that superficial stuff. So MBA is so the wrong choice for me.

I wonder if I/O is sort of happy medium for me. That I can find a niche, a subfield in there, where I don't get bombarded with people's personal issues, where I can do something challenging, valuable and satisfying, so I can hopefully pay back the loans and be able to move out.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Third, I don't like public speaking. If it's occasional and everything else about the work is great, I suppose I could learn to live with it. Also, I don't like doing the firm handshake, suits and ties all day long, the overconfident front, bull****ting people and all that superficial stuff. So MBA is so the wrong choice for me.

I'm clinical rather than I/O, so those in the field feel free to correct me, but I'd imagine that the skills you list here (i.e., public speaking, confidence, "professional congeniality/networking" or "bull****ting") would be important to someone in I/O as they attempt to sell their services to a corporation. After all, as T4C has said, organizations aren't going to assume that MS/PhD = competence; they'll want you to do a good enough job of convincing them ahead of time that you know what you're doing to alleviate at least most of their doubts. Either that, or you'll need a few well-connected references whose recommendations will hold some weight, and the process of obtaining those references would require similar social skills.

I will say that the I/O psychologists I know definitely don't strike me as the "typical" businessperson, though. They are, however, rather pragmatic and conceptualize research ideas on much larger scales than many clinical psychologists. They also, again as mentioned above, are very well-versed in some of the "higher-level" stats and/or those requiring larger sample sizes (e.g., SEM and MLM), so having a strong background or interest in this area would be very important.

 

[erg923]

Third, I don't like public speaking. If it's occasional and everything else about the work is great, I suppose I could learn to live with it. Also, I don't like doing the firm handshake, suits and ties all day long, the overconfident front, bull****ting people and all that superficial stuff. So MBA is so the wrong choice for me.

Um, then I/O would not be for you.

In fact, your core job description when doing business consultation in organizational development is to meet with a variety of people, shake their hands, gather info, interview and do assessments, and then compile all that info into a presentation (and a report) that is presented to the top leaders of the organization...who's ass you will probaly have to kiss to some degree if you want to keep them as a client.

 

[IOPsych]

Interesting stuff.

With my useless BA degree under my belt, I'm looking at options and I really can't see myself doing a PhD. Especially given all these negative things I am hearing about clinical psych. So a masters in I/O is another possibility I am examining. But three things:

One, people complaining it's "boring" and I want to be stimulated, challenged. For instance, my previous thread was about "drive" and I am very interesting in understanding why some people are so driven. That is far from boring to me, to say the least.

Two, I'm not a fan of the "touchy feely" stuff in clinical psych--I can't handle it and get easily overwhelmed. But I'm no cold-hearted business person either, not even close. I'm an INFP (look up MBTI). I'm an idealist who likes harmony, cooperation, and people getting along. Finding the right subfield in social sciences has been a challenge, and I wonder if I/O psych is worth considering.

Third, I don't like public speaking. If it's occasional and everything else about the work is great, I suppose I could learn to live with it. Also, I don't like doing the firm handshake, suits and ties all day long, the overconfident front, bull****ting people and all that superficial stuff. So MBA is so the wrong choice for me.

I wonder if I/O is sort of happy medium for me. That I can find a niche, a subfield in there, where I don't get bombarded with people's personal issues, where I can do something challenging, valuable and satisfying, so I can hopefully pay back the loans and be able to move out.

It depends on what you find boring and what you find stimulating. I enjoy working with complex data sets and teasing out information. I enjoy doing job analyses in order to develop a set of competencies for a test that will demonstrate criterion-related validity. I enjoy working in a collaborative environment where individuals bounce ideas off of them to come up with the best solution for the client. I enjoy advancing the application of science (which is often lost in academia) using real organizations. If those things sound boring to you, then perhaps this is not the right area for you.


Point 3; You will inevitably be doing a lot of public speaking. You will after all be the subject matter expert, wherever you are. This will involve a good amount of presentations, workshops, etc. When I started grad school I was embarrassed to talk in front of 10 people. This past spring semester I was instructor of record for a social psychology class of 400 students. You get over that fear very quickly.

And finally, I think everybody here knows what the MBTI is we just choose not to acknowledge its existence

Um, then I/O would not be for you.

In fact, your core job description when doing business consultation in organizational development is to meet with a variety of people, shake their hands, gather info, interview and do assessments, and then compile all that info into a presentation (and a report) that is presented to the top leaders of the organization...who's ass you will probaly have to kiss to some degree if you want to keep them as a client.

I think it really depends. The typical applied I/O you think about is in a consulting role, where they are responsible for implementation, project management and client relations which often coincides with a little schmoozing, meeting people, etc. However, there are other roles, especially within the govt. which involve a lot more R&D. In those cases you are often on project teams and you would not necessarily have to take a lead role every time.

 

[aequitasveritas]

Don't be like Toby.

 

[PsychBA]

Thank you for the replies. Discouraging, but I appreciate them. Maybe I should go into pure research. I don't have the enterprising "attitude" necessary for business world of I/O nor the thick skin needed to withstand vicarious traumatization that is the world of clinical psych.

Don't be like Toby.

Toby from The Office? But that's who I will be! Actually, I'm not quite as miserable as he is. Maybe personality wise, I am more like Pam.

BTW, what the heck is going on with Toby? The guy looking sick recently.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Interesting stuff.

With my useless BA degree under my belt, I'm looking at options and I really can't see myself doing a PhD. Especially given all these negative things I am hearing about clinical psych. So a masters in I/O is another possibility I am examining. But three things:

One, people complaining it's "boring" and I want to be stimulated, challenged. For instance, my previous thread was about "drive" and I am very interesting in understanding why some people are so driven. That is far from boring to me, to say the least.

Two, I'm not a fan of the "touchy feely" stuff in clinical psych--I can't handle it and get easily overwhelmed. But I'm no cold-hearted business person either, not even close. I'm an INFP (look up MBTI). I'm an idealist who likes harmony, cooperation, and people getting along. Finding the right subfield in social sciences has been a challenge, and I wonder if I/O psych is worth considering.

Third, I don't like public speaking. If it's occasional and everything else about the work is great, I suppose I could learn to live with it. Also, I don't like doing the firm handshake, suits and ties all day long, the overconfident front, bull****ting people and all that superficial stuff. So MBA is so the wrong choice for me.

I wonder if I/O is sort of happy medium for me. That I can find a niche, a subfield in there, where I don't get bombarded with people's personal issues, where I can do something challenging, valuable and satisfying, so I can hopefully pay back the loans and be able to move out.

If you are interested in something that will look prestigious and is quite rigorous you can get a M.S. in Organizational Psychology from the University of London (England) through their external master's degree program.

 

[PsychBA]

thanks for the suggestion