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Faux where are you getting the 40 new schools by 2011? All I can find is 21 (16 candidate and 5 pre-candidate) that aren't fully accredited yet and not all will become accredited by 2011. This comes from the ACPE dated June 2010. That 4,000 graduates number you keep throwing out doesn't match up with any data I find. If you set 2010 as the baseline, by 2014 there might be another 2,000 students graduating. And that's not 2,000 each year, it's a process of growth (based on fall 2009 enrollments). There is some truth to what you're saying; about half of that growth comes from newer schools, but I think you've exaggerated a bit too much.

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Ex: atm, it is VERY difficult to get an intern job even with a killer resume and interviewing skills.. So what happens to that large chunk of pharmacy students that can't get one for whatever reason, or dont have a good enough resume to get the few that are available.. Are they just doomed?? (no i do not think so, but making statements like , "just be at the top of your class and get the great intern experience etc, and if you dont you're screwed" can come off as being a little mean.

False.
 
Faux where are you getting the 40 new schools by 2011? All I can find is 21 (16 candidate and 5 pre-candidate) that aren't fully accredited yet and not all will become accredited by 2011. This comes from the ACPE dated June 2010. That 4,000 graduates number you keep throwing out doesn't match up with any data I find. If you set 2010 as the baseline, by 2014 there might be another 2,000 students graduating. And that's not 2,000 each year, it's a process of growth (based on fall 2009 enrollments). There is some truth to what you're saying; about half of that growth comes from newer schools, but I think you've exaggerated a bit too much.

Oh my gosh, the first intelligent reply I have received. I was getting my schools from a different website. http://ezinearticles.com/?New-Pharm...tation-Status-For-2009,-2010,-2011&id=2663195. You posted the best response yet. I may have exaggerated, but the fact still remains that those graduating in 6-8 years are going to be up against a wall of other pharmacists. The problem exists with schools continuing to open. Twenty one schools is still quite the increase. I'm worried about the future of the profession. There needs to be some type of regulation for pharmacy school, like med school. Thank you for using a good resource and generating a post that involved a thought.
 
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Oh my gosh, the first intelligent reply I have received. I was getting my schools from a different website. http://ezinearticles.com/?New-Pharm...tation-Status-For-2009,-2010,-2011&id=2663195. You posted the best response yet. I may have exaggerated, but the fact still remains that those graduating in 6-8 years are going to be up against a wall of other pharmacists. The problem exists with schools continuing to open. Twenty one schools is still quite the increase. I'm worried about the future of the profession. There needs to be some type of regulation for pharmacy school, like med school. Thank you for using a good resource and generating a post that involved a thought.

what do med schools do to prevent saturation?
 
what do med schools do to prevent saturation?

much more strict requirements for opening a new school/accreditation. also, since physicians are required to complete a residency to practice in the US this process acts as a bottleneck to eliminate poorly qualified applicants.
 
much more strict requirements for opening a new school/accreditation. also, since physicians are required to complete a residency to practice in the US this process acts as a bottleneck to eliminate poorly qualified applicants.

This is true. I know someone who went carribbean who barely passed pre reqs at a CC (they didn't even make him get a bachelors) and he can't practice in the US because he can't get into a residency here. He's on his 3rd cycle applying for one.
 
much more strict requirements for opening a new school/accreditation. also, since physicians are required to complete a residency to practice in the US this process acts as a bottleneck to eliminate poorly qualified applicants.

maybe we'll see pharm schools tighten up admission requirements in the future, I think it couldn't hurt
 
maybe we'll see pharm schools tighten up admission requirements in the future, I think it couldn't hurt


If you can find out how to get that started share the info. I talked to a guy from the board of pharmacy from my state. He said nothing was being done on shunting the flow of schools opening. My buddy emailed the ACPE, the people in charge of accreditation.
This is the exchange

To Whom it may concern-


I was just curious as to your insight on whether or not there are currently enforcements on how many pharmacy schools can be established? If not, is that something that will be seen in the near future with the dramatic increase in pharmacy schools in recent years? This can pose a big threat to pharmacy careers in the near future. I would appreciate any insight you have.

Thank you for your time.



Their response:
Thank you for your email expressing your concern about the growing number of pharmacy schools. Please note that ACPE's role is limited to ensuring the quality of pharmacy programs; issues of quantity are not with our scope of responsibility. In fact, were ACPE to prevent the opening of new schools based on the number of programs, we would be in violation of established antitrust laws. Any college or school of pharmacy that meets the established Standards for Professional Degree Program Accreditation is eligible for accreditation. Please let us know if you have any further questions or concerns. Thank you.


.Lindsay M. Antikainen, MS.
.Accreditation Facilitator, Professional Degree Program Accreditation.
.Accreditation Council for Pharmacy Education.
.20 N. Clark Street, Suite 2500.
.Chicago, IL 60602.
.312-664-3575
.
This is a problem that needs to be addressed for the sake of the profession.
.

.
 
maybe we'll see pharm schools tighten up admission requirements in the future, I think it couldn't hurt

unfortunately that is not likely in the current climate. not only are there many new pharmacy schools at sites have very week connections with local hospitals and poor faculty but in general there were less applicants last cycle than in previous cycles (we will see if this trend continues). what does this mean? schools who are struggling to fill their seats will be forced to select worse applicants into a system with poorer faculty, rotation sites, and preceptors --> less qualified pharmacists. this leads to people being accepted to pharmacy school who would not have likely been admitted in previous years (ie: a "loosening" of admission standards) while these schools continue to prey on unsuspecting/naive/underqualified applicants so that they can still bring in the tuition money.

even if we require residencies for hospital practice will there be a subsequent increase in jobs for these residents? what will all the others do who cannot get a residency or find a job in retail or the few other minor niches pharmacists occupy. even last year 10% of grads of St. Louis COP were unable to find jobs and that was before the tipping point of supply vs demand (there is an article floating around here where this statistic was taken from). with all the current evidence the future looks pretty grim, especially for the naive students who will be attending the newer schools with poor faculty/rotation sites... also, schools will be literally fighting over rotation sites/intern sites, and the intern situation is pretty bad right now, especially in the retail sector (ala Walgreens hiring freeze over summer, not hiring interns... only techs).
 

I disagree... this is highly dependent on region and implemented hiring freezes/hospital willingness to take on inexperience pharmacy students... it's no secret that hospitals are hurting pretty bad right now and I can say for sure (at least in my region) that they are not taking interns like they used to.
 
I disagree... this is highly dependent on region and implemented hiring freezes/hospital willingness to take on inexperience pharmacy students... it's no secret that hospitals are hurting pretty bad right now and I can say for sure (at least in my region) that they are not taking interns like they used to.

OK the language is subjective (and I respect your opinion) but the comment reads "VERY difficult". That is just not true.

What percent of your class has had an internship? It cannot be THAT hard.
 
OK the language is subjective (and I respect your opinion) but the comment reads "VERY difficult". That is just not true.

What percent of your class has had an internship? It cannot be THAT hard.

dude, at my location one is considered EXTREMELY lucky to get an internship. students here have started volunteering at the main hospital pharmacy here in hopes of getting an internship but they simply don't have any available. me and other students have applied all over the region for retail internships and they are either full or not hiring (ie: i applied to every single walgreens in a 50 mile radius and not a single one is hiring). its all about being at the right place at the right time at this point. i'm just thankful I was able to get a research position as those are even becoming hard to come by and more competitive. I will admit that this area is saturated for a reason (too many qualified students with not enough positions available) and things are probably a little better over in your neck of the woods.
 
I see a strong correlation between the number of Pharmacy schools opening, and the number of pharm tech training courses becoming available (all those awful daytime medical career tv commercials!).

The issue is that there are way more techs being hired than pharmacists, b/c they can perform many of the same responsibilities as a pharmacists for $8/hr. I'm sure this correlates with the economy: there's just not alot of money to be made.

I feel like the number of residencies is also very limited. Yesterday i looked for a pharmacy residency, and while i found MANY community residencies available, very few clinical-type residencies existed. This may not be the case 4-5 yrs from now though
 
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dude, at my location one is considered EXTREMELY lucky to get an internship. students here have started volunteering at the main hospital pharmacy here in hopes of getting an internship but they simply don't have any available. me and other students have applied all over the region for retail internships and they are either full or not hiring (ie: i applied to every single walgreens in a 50 mile radius and not a single one is hiring). its all about being at the right place at the right time at this point. i'm just thankful I was able to get a research position as those are even becoming hard to come by and more competitive. I will admit that this area is saturated for a reason (too many qualified students with not enough positions available) and things are probably a little better over in your neck of the woods.

I am sorry things are so bad in your area. Over 2/3rds of my class worked over the summer (we just had a poll about this in class). What a difference between our areas. I still think the statement "VERY difficult" is not true for most students, sorry that it applies to you.

Just a thought about applying to every Walgreens within a 50 mile radius. Does that mean applying online and selecting "50 mile radius"? That isn't that much work, imo. Applying to every pharmacy in a 50 mile radius however...

Just applying online is also hardly any work. Now if one is using cold calls, applying in person and following up and still gets nothing, ok I will concede that it is VERY difficult.
 
I am sorry things are so bad in your area. Over 2/3rds of my class worked over the summer (we just had a poll about this in class). What a difference between our areas. I still think the statement "VERY difficult" is not true for most students, sorry that it applies to you.

Just a thought about applying to every Walgreens within a 50 mile radius. Does that mean applying online and selecting "50 mile radius"? That isn't that much work, imo. Applying to every pharmacy in a 50 mile radius however...

Just applying online is also hardly any work. Now if one is using cold calls, applying in person and following up and still gets nothing, ok I will concede that it is VERY difficult.

there are two chains in my metro area. both of them are on hiring freezes. either that or managers have been lying to me, which, who knows what kind of people are in charge of these places. It's DIFFICULT, its not impossible , to get an intern job with a great resume and interviewing skills. but not everyone has those.. this leaves hospitals. now with maybe .. 30 hospital internships going around the metro area for 1200 students. This means not everyone is going to have a job. I mean. Ive taken a bit of time off of "serious" job searching , and I expect I'll eventually find one with my extensive hospital and nuke compounding experiences. But, if I have to work that hard to find one, what does it mean for the 50% of the class who doesnt have pharmacy intern experience, the ~25% of the class without tech experience, or the x or y % of the class who is only able to take specific part time hours due to commitments, etc. Im just saying. Not NEARLY everyone out there is like us on the forums here (all, top dog, top motivation, top experiences) and cant just "ride it out and be fine by being on top". Sometimes I forget what kind of specific community we have here.. It's not representative of the pharmacy school community as a whole, necessarily.
 
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there are two chains in my metro area. both of them are on hiring freezes. either that or managers have been lying to me, which, who knows what kind of people are in charge of these places. It's DIFFICULT, its not impossible , to get an intern job with a great resume and interviewing skills. but not everyone has those.. this leaves hospitals. now with maybe .. 30 hospital internships going around the metro area for 1200 students. This means not everyone is going to have a job.

That is terrible b, just terrible. 1200 students in your metro area? :eek: Not to be glib, but their's your problem.

Yeah I will allow for "very difficult" in that situation. :laugh:
 
but the fact still remains that those graduating in 6-8 years are going to be up against a wall of other pharmacists. The problem exists with schools continuing to open.

And just for fun here's a pretty daunting graph that supports a fair amount of what you're saying.
trends.jpg
 
That is terrible b, just terrible. 1200 students in your metro area? :eek: Not to be glib, but their's your problem.

Yeah I will allow for "very difficult" in that situation. :laugh:

ok i was wrong cause i didnt do my research, we only have around 950 students for the metro area. however.. this is nothing compared to out east, for example. i mean in philly or chicago or nyc, theres what , thousands of pharmacy students ??? from 5+ schools?
 
ok i was wrong cause i didnt do my research, we only have around 950 students for the metro area. however.. this is nothing compared to out east, for example. i mean in philly or chicago or nyc, theres what , thousands of pharmacy students ??? from 5+ schools?

Illinois is going to have 6 pharm schools.... insane. Even my interviewer at UIC seemed worried about the 6th school opening up there.
 
So should I feel lucky for once to live in the middle of nowhere.
 
Tungsten, are you in California? Chebs was on here complaining about the same thing not that long ago. Finding a job in a place like that seems impossible, but it's not representative of all areas.

thankfully no... i'm in FL.
 
I am sorry things are so bad in your area. Over 2/3rds of my class worked over the summer (we just had a poll about this in class). What a difference between our areas. I still think the statement "VERY difficult" is not true for most students, sorry that it applies to you.

Just a thought about applying to every Walgreens within a 50 mile radius. Does that mean applying online and selecting "50 mile radius"? That isn't that much work, imo. Applying to every pharmacy in a 50 mile radius however...

Just applying online is also hardly any work. Now if one is using cold calls, applying in person and following up and still gets nothing, ok I will concede that it is VERY difficult.

no, i individually applied to four different districts and visited a few of the pharmacies. i received e-mails from each district saying they were not hiring at this time... and i applied as both a tech and an intern. i've also gone to many local retail pharmacies in a bit smaller radius and still no luck. many of my classmates are experiencing the same thing.
 
thankfully no... i'm in FL.


Where in FL?! I am also in Florida. I worked two internships over the summer. Way over half my class did as well. My school does a job fair, that's where I got one. The other required more leg work on my part. Neither one was difficult, let alone very difficult.

EDIT: I meant way over half my class worked, not worked two jobs. I should have been more clear.
 
The companies that came to our school toward the beginning of the semester said they were not hiring interns, either. They asked students to fill out the interest sheets anyway in case "something opens up". Some of us drive up to our neighboring (larger) city to work on weekends. A 2 hour drive isn't great but it is worth it to have a job/internship.

I agree with previous posters- it depends on your region. It is very difficult for many students to find something right now. In the summer, there will be even more students competing for spots. I don't doubt the veracity of your claim, owlegrad, but the economy isn't exactly robust in my neck of the woods (same for many others).
 
The companies that came to our school toward the beginning of the semester said they were not hiring interns, either. They asked students to fill out the interest sheets anyway in case "something opens up". Some of us drive up to our neighboring (larger) city to work on weekends. A 2 hour drive isn't great but it is worth it to have a job/internship.

I agree with previous posters- it depends on your region. It is very difficult for many students to find something right now. In the summer, there will be even more students competing for spots. I don't doubt the veracity of your claim, owlegrad, but the economy isn't exactly robust in my neck of the woods (same for many others).

I guess I never knew how lucky I had it. I mean I always knew I was lucky, but I didn't realize how lucky.

Thanks for the insight tung, lea, b.
 
And people always called me a troll when I started telling them how bad/saturated job market was..:thumbdown:....Ha! Look who's laughing now?
 
Should I skip pharmacy school and stay at my 25K a year job. In 10 years i can be making 30K like my coworkers and in 20 years I can be making 32K with 4 weeks vacation... tough choice for me
 
I guess I never knew how lucky I had it. I mean I always knew I was lucky, but I didn't realize how lucky.

Thanks for the insight tung, lea, b.

I didn't say much. I will add this, though: We had several companies come through and provide us lunch while talking about their summer internship programs. They all had openings, though not as many as the year before.

It's worth pointing out that most people flee the area where my pharmacy school is located during breaks (like the summer), so we don't have anywhere near the competition that some of you do in larger metropolitan areas.

People fleeing South Texas? Nooo way. :smuggrin:
 
Wait... so does that mean he is NOT a troll with NO job?

Does that make him a normal person with a job?

true that...but the only job he can have in future is probably a BE-LOW...job..That's considered a normal job????:confused:
 
I didn't say much. I will add this, though: We had several companies come through and provide us lunch while talking about their summer internship programs. They all had openings, though not as many as the year before.

It's worth pointing out that most people flee the area where my pharmacy school is located during breaks (like the summer), so we don't have anywhere near the competition that some of you do in larger metropolitan areas.

People fleeing South Texas? Nooo way. :smuggrin:

Oh I was actually talking to type b. But you can have some thanks too I guess. :laugh:
 
There has been several threads so far that talk about the bleak future of pharmacy profession. All these threads leave pharmacy aspirants like me confused. Although I am very very passionate about pharmacy, I have to also consider financial security because I have a family to care for. Many posters present a picture of future pharmacy students as going broke and bankurupt. I would like to know the answers for these questions.

1. What would be the future of pharmacy students if all of the chain drug stores like walgreens and walmart impose a hiring freeze for several years?

2. Is it possible for several schools to get accredition? I thought accredition of pharm schools is a very tough procedure and it is not easy to get board approval. In such a case it is impossible for many schools to open pharm D program. Well in other words how many schools get accredited in a year? If it is just one or two, then I think it is nothing to worry about.

3. In case many schools open up, would Pharm D graduates have an opportunity to work as faculty in the new pharm schools?

4. In the worst case scenario of saturation what would be the living standards of new pharmacy graduates?
 
There has been several threads so far that talk about the bleak future of pharmacy profession. All these threads leave pharmacy aspirants like me confused. Although I am very very passionate about pharmacy, I have to also consider financial security because I have a family to care for. Many posters present a picture of future pharmacy students as going broke and bankurupt. I would like to know the answers for these questions.

1. What would be the future of pharmacy students if all of the chain drug stores like walgreens and walmart impose a hiring freeze for several years?

2. Is it possible for several schools to get accredition? I thought accredition of pharm schools is a very tough procedure and it is not easy to get board approval. In such a case it is impossible for many schools to open pharm D program. Well in other words how many schools get accredited in a year? If it is just one or two, then I think it is nothing to worry about.

3. In case many schools open up, would Pharm D graduates have an opportunity to work as faculty in the new pharm schools?

4. In the worst case scenario of saturation what would be the living standards of new pharmacy graduates?

1. Unemployment. The way you built the question only leaves not working at a chain or not working at all.

2. Too many new schools plus existing schools expanding enrollment. Sad. I can't say how "hard" it is, but it can't be too hard based on the number of new schools. The difficulty does not seem to be much of a limiting factor at all.

3. Sure, why not? But schools by their nature have more students than faculty so this would help only a small percent of people.

4. Worst case scenario, we will live as bums eating out of dumpsters behind our corporate masters, forced to fight in The Games for their amusement, living from game to game like animals. Soon all our humanity would be lost as we struggle just to survive in this dystopian hellscape. Also no medical or 401k.

Much more likely we will simply have to compete more for jobs.
 
If you can find out how to get that started share the info. I talked to a guy from the board of pharmacy from my state. He said nothing was being done on shunting the flow of schools opening. My buddy emailed the ACPE, the people in charge of accreditation.
This is the exchange

This is a problem that needs to be addressed for the sake of the profession.
.

.

I think pharm schools should start requiring a degree and the pcat, all of them. I see alot of schools that require the PCAT but don't take it seriously like med schools with the MCAT... Schools that let ppl rush in after only 2 years of prereqs are also contributing to the problem; you could perhaps also make the argument for the schools that let you finish in 3 years.. I also think residency should be required for all pharmd graduates, wouldn't hurt anyone... Just overall make the process more serious so only the committed enter the profession
 
So, what about 3-year programs, where there is no opportunity to do summer internships (since they'll be at school in the summer), how will they fair? Is that a major downside for 3yr programs? Or if you work part-time (say 8 hrs/wk) would that be equivalent experience?

I think those that are really screwed are the ones going to the newest schools, if it's true that their standards are so much less stringent. A part of the reason that ivy-league schools are so successful is that their name attracts the "best" high-schoolers and what comes in, must go out. So obviously they will have a great alums that are able to donate money back etc... (there have been studies looking at students who got into ivy-leagues but decided not to go and researchers found that they were just as successful as those actually graduating from ivies)
the point is, past performance predicts future performance (obviously there are exceptions) and schools admitting a bunch of weaker candidates will produce weaker graduates (on average) and with a more competitive environment and TON of student debt on their shoulders...bad news.

these schools are selling false hope
 
Illinois is going to have 6 pharm schools.... insane. Even my interviewer at UIC seemed worried about the 6th school opening up there.

Ahh good times. The people graduating from that 6th school (Roosevelt, complete garbage) will be in for a pleasant surprise when they graduate, especially if some sort of tier system becomes more defined, which I think it will. I've already heard quite a few reports of employers in the area heavily favoring UIC students, even though Midwestern is well established. Can't even imagine how it will be for those graduating from the three new Chicago schools.

As far as internships, I was lucky to get one in a hospital and am going to try and pick up a 2nd this summer in nuclear, though I'm not holding my breath.
 
oh hey! look what i found


"Pharmacist ($103,839)
The Department of Veterans Affairs is seeking more than 2,300 pharmacists to dispense medications for returning veterans. Pharmacists must earn a specialized Pharm.D. four-year degree from an accredited college or school of pharmacy, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports."

For the full article, look here: http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-art...jobs-1458/fpusrsrc=today?WT.mc_n=hjEOI_YToday

I guess some of you have some phone calls to start making...
 
I see what you did there. Careful, Mr. Kitty. ;)

So we're in the middle of page 3 now. Has anyone learned anything from this thread?

Yes. I'm going to meet with my advisor on Monday to see if any of my pharmacy school classes will transfer to truck driver school.
 
I think the worst part for me is that I am under the impression that my schools faculty is completely unaware of the problem, or at least they are not willing to admit there is a problem. Its the giant elephant in the room. For those of you in pharmacy school I don't know if you get the pharmacy times but they had a few articles about how bad it is getting in their most recent publication that I was reading over today. I'm seriously concerned about the money I am sinking into a possibly useless degree.
 
oh hey! look what i found


"Pharmacist ($103,839)
The Department of Veterans Affairs is seeking more than 2,300 pharmacists to dispense medications for returning veterans. Pharmacists must earn a specialized Pharm.D. four-year degree from an accredited college or school of pharmacy, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reports."

For the full article, look here: http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/career-art...jobs-1458/fpusrsrc=today?WT.mc_n=hjEOI_YToday

I guess some of you have some phone calls to start making...

End of thread. GG. Nothing to see here folks. Despite fear mongering PharmDs are still pulling in 100k across the country.
 
End of thread. GG. Nothing to see here folks. Despite fear mongering PharmDs are still pulling in 100k across the country.
Apparently you didnt read the comments posted on this link from earlier so I will post it again. These are people out in the real world that are currently looking for jobs and are concerned about what to do. I know it may help you sleep at night to see a few job postings here and there but this is serious. Click on the link, read the comments, and then tell me that it is all peachy.

http://www.pharmacytimes.com/comment...kelblog-111809

I feel like the purpose of this thread was not to be a pessimist but to raise awareness and be a realist about what you are getting yourself into. In the end everyone obviously has their free will but at least now pre pharms know what they are getting themselves into. That is all.

Oh and dont bother replying until you read the comments of REAL PHARMACISTS on this link not speculating prepharms.
 
End of thread. GG. Nothing to see here folks. Despite fear mongering PharmDs are still pulling in 100k across the country.

WOW... this type of news is like a needle in the haystack. yes, let's just ignore the other evidence to the contrary.
 
I see what you did there. Careful, Mr. Kitty. ;)

So we're in the middle of page 3 now. Has anyone learned anything from this thread?

i learned that pharmacy students are a bunch of debbie downers
 
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