Illegal interview question?
- Thread starter twistedroses
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Yes, you've said this, and it's bogus. You can pose interesting and challenging questions without stepping into EO issues. Interviewers do it all the time. You won't find out that much anyway; b/c smart people, as many pre-meds are, will see through it and just play the game along with you.
There are so many difficult situational scenarios you can put forth without stepping into the EO minefield. Sly folks will answer and get through and then report you/school later. May go somewhere, or it may not. Just be more creative w/o going directly into EO boundaries.
Why one would have such a boner about doing this with EO issues is intriguing to me.
At any rate, we will have to agree to disagree. The Ferris Wheel has gone around enough on this.
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We are definitely allowed to ask "so how will you be able to relate to your classmates given that you're "older/younger than their median age?"
We're obviously not going to discriminate on age, but we can on immaturity or not being a team player.
We're obviously not going to discriminate on age, but we can on immaturity or not being a team player.
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I think he's confused on the legalities here. For one, illegal questions aren't actually "illegal", lol. Two, employment is not the same thing as an educational institution.
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What the OP thought was irrelevant; the question had a completely different thrust, and the OP was wrong on top of that!
Even answering "no and no" to the interviewer's questions weren't likely to be lethal. Very few interview questions are outright lethal. But I'll bet OP's attitude in the interview room was.
Even answering "no and no" to the interviewer's questions weren't likely to be lethal. Very few interview questions are outright lethal. But I'll bet OP's attitude in the interview room was.
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Do you expect everyone to have the exact same application? If my interviewer asks me why I turned down a T14 law school to pursue medicine, does he/she have to ask every other interviewee that question, too? If I'm asked why I took 3 gap years, is the interviewer supposed to ask traditional students why they didn't?
It doesn't make sense to ask applicants who don't deviate from the norm the same questions as those who do.
Edit: I'm not implying that this pertains to questions relating to gender.
B/c EO discrimination can extend into student application/acceptance (and I have posted a link about that as well), it is very MUCH relevant and related. You have to look at what can be construed as violations of the EEOC laws and the guidelines that go with them.
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But you're misconstruing the question in attempt to classify it as discrimination. Again, this is grasping for straws to identify discrimination where there is none (and trust me, I've been discriminated against because of my gender).
That's not the litmus test. Singling out people with questions that impinge upon EO is problematic at the least. What can be construed as disparate? It's getting down into the weeds and isn't necessary. So, again. Why have a boner about it? What is the point? That's what is intriguing me here. Are people really so hungry to play that superficial game in interviewing others. I find it creepy.
The best you can do along these lines is to get someone to talk about themselves, and if they bring it up--if they open the door, then you are pretty much off the hook--even then, certain things depending.
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I have different ones for the younger one, but they're designed to ferret out the same negative traits.
We don't have to abide by this "you have to be able to ask that question of anyone" mentality. For example, I have questions I only ask of children of doctors. I also have specific questions I only ask of nurses. Ditto ones for EMTs. And there are definitely ones I can ask of females, but not males, or gays and not straights. No, they're not discriminatory, and no, I'm not sharing.
We don't have to abide by this "you have to be able to ask that question of anyone" mentality. For example, I have questions I only ask of children of doctors. I also have specific questions I only ask of nurses. Ditto ones for EMTs. And there are definitely ones I can ask of females, but not males, or gays and not straights. No, they're not discriminatory, and no, I'm not sharing.
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I'm offended. As a female, I believe discussing male genitalia with me is inappropriate and can be construed as sexual harassment.
See what I did there?
It can be viewed as disparate. Why would a student or interviewee be so hot to go down this road? Why? How is it truly relevant to their commitment to medicine?
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Because it's a perfectly acceptable way to identify a candidate's level of introspection.
We can go around and around but the fact of the matter is that it's perfectly allowed regardless of your opinion on the matter (or mine).
^These are not the problem ones.
^These potentially are.
Do you not see the imbalance? And how are the questions re: females relevant? How are questions re: gays relevant?
Just b/c you haven't been burned yet; doesn't not mean you can't in the future. Not everyone is going to look the other way b/c they want to get into medical school. Just like not every whistleblower is not going to shut up and look the other way b/c they might lose their job.
How so? There are literally endless ways of doing this without going down the EO path. Endless. I mean just by asking about what they like to read, beyond science and medicine, wow, that could give you tons of insight.
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There isn't an imbalance. All are unique factors that might change perspective. How do you not realize these are topics that can be spoken about without violating anybody?
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I'll let the school's lawyer's deal with it then. I can justify each question in my bank too. No med school has ever been successfully sued as long as it was demonstrated that their actions weren't arbitrary or capricious.
B/c there are no lawyers or judges in the room during the time of the interview, hey. You can pretty much say anything is "allowed."
It's about how it can be viewed as disparate-"Although Title VII does not prohibit employers from asking applicants or employees about gender-related characteristics such as pregnancy, such questions are generally discouraged. The EEOC will consider the fact that an employer has asked such a question when evaluating a charge alleging pregnancy discrimination. Adverse decisions relating to hiring, assignments, or promotion, that are based on an employer's assumptions or stereotypes about pregnant workers' attendance, schedules, physical ability to work, or commitment to their jobs, are unlawful."
Oh and please don't go down the road of, but it's employment. It doesn't matter. The same federal, legal principles apply to application to education.
So, the school adcom thinks they are covered b/c they have so many applicants, and b/c they can find any other number of pre-text issues by which to hide discrimination--not actually saying they were or weren't; but it is how a case can be made. Upon discovery, the can of worms is opened.
Not worth it. And there is absolutely NO NEED to do it. So, why do it?
It's about how it can be viewed as disparate-"Although Title VII does not prohibit employers from asking applicants or employees about gender-related characteristics such as pregnancy, such questions are generally discouraged. The EEOC will consider the fact that an employer has asked such a question when evaluating a charge alleging pregnancy discrimination. Adverse decisions relating to hiring, assignments, or promotion, that are based on an employer's assumptions or stereotypes about pregnant workers' attendance, schedules, physical ability to work, or commitment to their jobs, are unlawful."
Oh and please don't go down the road of, but it's employment. It doesn't matter. The same federal, legal principles apply to application to education.
So, the school adcom thinks they are covered b/c they have so many applicants, and b/c they can find any other number of pre-text issues by which to hide discrimination--not actually saying they were or weren't; but it is how a case can be made. Upon discovery, the can of worms is opened.
Not worth it. And there is absolutely NO NEED to do it. So, why do it?
Yes, the burden is on the plaintiff to show pre-text. But all you need is a sympathetic jury. And does administration and the school want the bad press? I seriously doubt it.
How are these kinds of questions necessary. Again. The elephant in the room.
You can PM me as well. I do tend to prefer to deal with people in a straight-forward manner, and not use personal gibes at others. I have to squint at folks that do this. But sadly it's part of certain behaviors. So be it.
That is YOU. I am pretty sure people don't go down this road unless the interviewee proceeds down this line first.
If an interviewer asks inappropriate questions during an interview, it is important not to tell anyone at the school since this might hurt one's application.
REALITY: Committees are aware that even the most aggressive training programs for interviewers sometimes fail. If the school provides an 'end of the day' evaluation form, be honest and specific in discussing concerns. If no evaluation format is provided, appropriately share concerns with the Dean or Director of Admissions. Do not just pretend the inappropriate questions were not asked. The committee genuinely wants to get to know you and can best do this with a fair interview process.
Know Your Interview Rights and Responsibilities
Although interviewers are instructed by admissions officers and guided by federal statutes on what are unfair or discriminatory pre-admission inquiries, there may be an occasion when an interviewer asks an inappropriate question. (See examples below.)
You have the right not to answer what you sense is an inappropriate question. If such a question is asked, try to relax and provide a thoughtful and articulate response (two essential characteristics of a good physician). You may also respectfully decline to answer the question and explain that you were advised not to answer questions that you sensed were inappropriate.
You have the responsibility to report being asked an inappropriate question to help prevent further occurrences. Medical schools have the responsibility to establish procedures that enable applicants to report such incidents in a confidential manner. Medical schools should inform applicants of these procedures prior to interviews and assure them that reporting an incident will not bias the applicant's evaluation.
If a medical school did not inform you of its procedure and an incident occurs, use these guidelines. If possible, report in confidence the interviewer's name and the interview question(s) that was asked to an admissions officer during the interview day. Otherwise, e-mail this information to an admissions officer within 24 hours of the interview noting the date and time of the incident. Furthermore, you have the right to ask if another interview is deemed necessary to ensure an unbiased evaluation of your application to that medical school.
Some interviewers use the interview to assess how well you function under stress and may purposely ask challenging questions to observe how you respond under pressure. How you communicate will be a critical part of the encounter; however, this does not give an interviewer the right to ask you inappropriate questions in their attempt to challenge you during the interview.
Examples of inappropriate questions:
• What is your race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, political affiliation, marital status, opinion on abortion and/or euthanasia, income, value of your home, credit score, etc.?
• Are you planning on having children during medical school?
• Do you have any disabilities?
• Will you require special accommodations?
• Have you ever been arrested?
• Have you ever done drugs?
• How old are you?
Sample response to an inappropriate questions:
Q. What are your plans for expanding your family during medical school?
A. Can you please clarify your question? I want to make sure that I'm providing information that is most relevant to my candidacy.
Q. Have you ever done drugs?
A. I am uncomfortable discussing my medical history and possible use of prescription medications during this interview.
From jhu.edu
Finding tricky ways to get these kinds of questions over on candidates is problematic.
Disagree all you want. It's not good form. I mean there are so many healthcare and sociopolitical and other kinds of questions you can use to try to test and interviewee's response.
Instead of asking older students about how they will work with younger ones; why not ask an open questions, such as: What kinds of diverse populations of people have you worked with, and in what capacity. What kinds of concerns or conflicts did you find when working with diverse people in various roles--such as your managers, etc?
REALITY: Committees are aware that even the most aggressive training programs for interviewers sometimes fail. If the school provides an 'end of the day' evaluation form, be honest and specific in discussing concerns. If no evaluation format is provided, appropriately share concerns with the Dean or Director of Admissions. Do not just pretend the inappropriate questions were not asked. The committee genuinely wants to get to know you and can best do this with a fair interview process.
Know Your Interview Rights and Responsibilities
Although interviewers are instructed by admissions officers and guided by federal statutes on what are unfair or discriminatory pre-admission inquiries, there may be an occasion when an interviewer asks an inappropriate question. (See examples below.)
You have the right not to answer what you sense is an inappropriate question. If such a question is asked, try to relax and provide a thoughtful and articulate response (two essential characteristics of a good physician). You may also respectfully decline to answer the question and explain that you were advised not to answer questions that you sensed were inappropriate.
You have the responsibility to report being asked an inappropriate question to help prevent further occurrences. Medical schools have the responsibility to establish procedures that enable applicants to report such incidents in a confidential manner. Medical schools should inform applicants of these procedures prior to interviews and assure them that reporting an incident will not bias the applicant's evaluation.
If a medical school did not inform you of its procedure and an incident occurs, use these guidelines. If possible, report in confidence the interviewer's name and the interview question(s) that was asked to an admissions officer during the interview day. Otherwise, e-mail this information to an admissions officer within 24 hours of the interview noting the date and time of the incident. Furthermore, you have the right to ask if another interview is deemed necessary to ensure an unbiased evaluation of your application to that medical school.
Some interviewers use the interview to assess how well you function under stress and may purposely ask challenging questions to observe how you respond under pressure. How you communicate will be a critical part of the encounter; however, this does not give an interviewer the right to ask you inappropriate questions in their attempt to challenge you during the interview.
Examples of inappropriate questions:
• What is your race, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, political affiliation, marital status, opinion on abortion and/or euthanasia, income, value of your home, credit score, etc.?
• Are you planning on having children during medical school?
• Do you have any disabilities?
• Will you require special accommodations?
• Have you ever been arrested?
• Have you ever done drugs?
• How old are you?
Sample response to an inappropriate questions:
Q. What are your plans for expanding your family during medical school?
A. Can you please clarify your question? I want to make sure that I'm providing information that is most relevant to my candidacy.
Q. Have you ever done drugs?
A. I am uncomfortable discussing my medical history and possible use of prescription medications during this interview.
From jhu.edu
Finding tricky ways to get these kinds of questions over on candidates is problematic.
Disagree all you want. It's not good form. I mean there are so many healthcare and sociopolitical and other kinds of questions you can use to try to test and interviewee's response.
Instead of asking older students about how they will work with younger ones; why not ask an open questions, such as: What kinds of diverse populations of people have you worked with, and in what capacity. What kinds of concerns or conflicts did you find when working with diverse people in various roles--such as your managers, etc?
If they feel comfortable in doing so; but not everyone will, and you have to know this. Those who have in their apps have opened the door for the line of questioning. That is fine. But what if it is slipped in, somehow, for someone that is not open or is questioning? What if someone isn't cool with this, and then sense tension, and then they file a complaint.
Look, I don't see what any of it has to do with being a physician. It may have somehow affected your personal story, and thus you wanted to discuss it in your app or in interview. You opened that up. I am not going to disallow you from being my physician or nurse based on your sexual orientation, gender, religion or whatever. Yes, some patients sadly will, and there was a point made about that. I understand the adversity point; but you can ask other questions that have to do with dealing with stress and adversity without going down that road. Again, if the applicant/interviewee wants to, well, make the interviewers' day.
There was a person on here not to long ago that finally got into MS but was given a tough time about their transgender status, and I think it took a couple of cycles of the person to get accepted--and not bc of anything else in their application; although I suspect easy pre-text issues were employed to cover the schools.
It does happen. People do get discriminated against. And I for the life of me don't see why people want to pursue the EO line when it comes to applicants. Is it b/c they really believe they have the power and can; b/c enough people haven't spoken up or b/c it's been gotten away with a number of times?
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lol wondered why I had 40 notifications.
Her gender will come up in the demographic information, just like age. Sexual orientation and religion will not. Just like race and then the obvious phenotypical presentation of race--where it is obvious will come up.
Can an applicant leave the gender and age (DOB) blank? Hmm? When it goes back to schooling, will not the age be revealed? Will not the strongly phenotypical Asian, AF-AM, Am-Indian, not be obvious upon interview? These things can't help but be revealed.
But applications will not put down a space for sexual orientation or religion.
Slippery slope.
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You never responded to rachie's offended post
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Age, sex, sexual orientation and religion are all listed in your source above. Nice try drawing distinctions where it suits you though. Now try to see how asking about an applicants thoughts on sexism is distinct from sexism.
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She probably didn't list her gender -- That's why she was offended!
I wasn't aware that I had to respond to ridiculous posts. It wasn't even closely relevant. But now you will continue her "war" against me. Thanks.
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A "war" would include 2 sides who actually have valid, logical arguments
I simply disagree with the EO line of questioning. It's unnecessary. You can "test" for stress and responses to adversity" in so many other ways. Again, it's unnecessary.
Can't find any good reason to go there.
Can't find any good reason to go there.
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Please tell me what neutral thing you would ask that would get at the same thing
Actually the validity and logic of many wars can be said to be dubious.
Glazed, you just want the back and forth. Consider that the EO questions just aren't necessary, so there is NO reason to pursue them.
This kind of God thing where people feel they can play with touching the line and coming back is kind of screwy. Either that or people need to come up with some fresher, deeper, better questions for their applicants.
My original response, however, was this. One day, this kind of thing is going to jump up and bite someone squarely on the behind. Steel underwear may be in order.
Geez, the Internet.
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Well can't deny that it's been entertaining.
How did you fail to read the many posts that said this question was not in fact incredibly relevant and other questions could have replaced it or the interviewer could have worded it differently? No one disagrees with you there. What everyone has been saying is that it is not as offensive as you are making it. Please note this distinction rather than repeating "the question wasn't relevant"
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LOL they are actively piecing it out during the interview in such a way as to suggest it might have an impact on her ability to function in the role--based on that PARTICULAR status, which is one protected under the EO.
Thank you. You've helped me here. It's unneeded, and as such could be construed as honing in on a factor that should not be considered or influential in granting the applicant acceptance.
I do realize you will continue on with this, perhaps b/c you are out of donuts. IDK. You want to do it when you sit on adcom, go right on ahead. Maybe you will be lucky. Maybe you will not be. Since it is neither necessary nor relevant, it should be avoided.
Personally, as many things in medicine are weighed, I don't see the benefit over the risk.
And I think others don't see the risk b/c fearful pre-meds have chosen to just get into med school, even though they know darn well it's a gaming question.
Personally, as many things in medicine are weighed, I don't see the benefit over the risk.
And I think others don't see the risk b/c fearful pre-meds have chosen to just get into med school, even though they know darn well it's a gaming question.
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It is unneeded but it is not offensive.
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It was absolutely relevant! You just chose to ignore it because it made a point that you were uncomfortable addressing. To break it down for you, the point was that anything can be misconstrued to be offensive, but that doesn't make it illegal. Your comment wasn't actually sexual harassment, and just because I may have felt that it was doesn't make it so. Fortunately, our legal system does not determine the legality of objective interview questions based on subjective feelings.
I'm not at war with you. I'm just entertained that you have such strong feelings on this subject and you're letting those feelings think for you. You're interpreting the law based on feelings rather than precedent.
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Lol was just about to say 😀
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**** even if I was asked how being female would affect my ability to be a physician, the simple answer is "it wouldn't". I personally still wouldn't consider that discrimination unless the interviewer insisted that it would.
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You have yet to give me, or anyone, a valid reason as to why asking how an individual would respond to discrimination (of any kind, sex is merely an example) is infringing on their equal opportunity. You could literally come up with multiple examples for any given individual, it's just easy to use sex because discrimination, of some kind, is still relatively prevalent. I mean, you've had numerous women in this thread tell you that they don't feel that being asked how they would address sex/gender discrimination is wrong or irrelevant, and I find it slightly odd that anyone would have such difficulty understanding the difference between asking about discrimination and actually discriminating against someone.
You do realize that the whole 'slippery slope' argument is one of the biggest fallacies in existence and is not a valid argument to any statement, right? Besides, if you want to talk about slippery slope I'm sure anyone could give you numerous examples where being overly PC has lead to significant negative results.
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How so? (bolded part)
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The ethics classes I've taken have all cited 10 central logical fallacies, slippery slope being one of them. It assumes that if A happens, then eventually B will also happen, therefore we should avoid action A at all costs. It's been the rallying point of dictators and bigots throughout history, and played a major role in impeding the progress of society on numerous occasions. In this case, simply asking a question about how someone would respond to a situation, does not inherently mean they will be discriminated against for their answer, their physical/personality trait, or at all.
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Interesting as that's used for many ethical dilemmas like stem cell to cloning
I always thought it was based on history
