I'm Getting Dismissed From School. Please read.

[bollocks1234]

Hi - long (obviously), but if you have any kind of experience or know somebody who knows somebody that has experience with this kind of stuff, please take a few minutes to read what I've written below.

I go to a DO school. Last year, I started school w/ class of 2019. I started feeling sick at the end of block 1, and had huge problems w/ getting up to go to class and would often ask for extensions on assignments, bc of inability to complete them - turns out, I had mono. I went on medical leave at middle of block 2, but wasn't diagnosed until April of 2016, since the mono was caused by CMV and all my docs were looking at epstein-barr, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. I requested testing for CMV (PCR & serum) and both came back positive. When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck, since I didn't know what was wrong with me but just felt overall horrible.

Flash forward to now: I was allowed to start back to school w/ the class of 2020, but only after signing a contract saying that I wouldn't be tardy to anything, miss anything, and that required me to be in counseling throughout the year (since the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave). I was also put on academic probation from 2015, and wasn't allowed to get off of it despite starting out a new year. Basically, I had to sign a "learning agreement" because my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior. I signed it, because I wanted to be back in school and didn't challenge any of the points in the contract.

I did really well in Block 1 of this year, but had to remediate a class in Block 2 & 3, which per the handbook, is totally allowed and I passed each class and was ready to tackle block 4.

Block 4 started out rough, because stuff happens, I had gotten a vicious stomach bug, stayed in the ER overnight for suspected appendicitis, and was diagnosed with a paralytic ileus. It put me out, and it was no fun, obviously. Basically I missed a week of school because of it and it put me REALLY far behind, farther behind than what I realized until the second test of cardiopulm physiology.

Here's the rub: when I realized I was behind and having trouble catching up, I emailed our academic success department about scheduling a meeting so that I could nail down a study plan and get caught up. I also emailed our medical education department several times about discussing grades and additional more boring subjects, to which I received no response. I actually had to go into the med ed office to see if they were even receiving my emails, to which they said yes, but they receive so many, that basically the one I sent got sent down to the bottom of their list to reply to. :O
I reached out for help from classmates, brought my grades up from the mid sixties to upper nineties, adjusted my study habits, etc. etc. but in the end, it wasn't enough to bring 3 of my grades up from the mid sixties, and 2 from the high sixties. Regarding how I brought my grades up, in my appeal, I had two fellow students write me letters of support, one from my tutor and one from the class president.

The school wants to dismiss me, based on what they said were academic reasons (understandable), but they also cited the absences from LAST year from when I was sick w/ mono as a reason for dismissal, along with my MCAT score and undergrad science GPA. In the letter that outlines why I am being dismissed, it clearly states that "you are being dismissed purely for academic reasons." I am unsure of how my MCAT score, absences from being sick, are even worth adding in to the letter if it's purely because of my academic performance *while* in medical school. Also, the school let me in with my MCAT score and undergrad GPA, and now they're holding it against me? I get they are trying to build a case that I am academically incompetent, but they ARE the ones that let me in...

In the dismissal letter, they also stated that I failed a course that I didn't fail (I brought this to their attention, and they rescinded it and said they were misinformed). This makes me raise an eyebrow - they had written my dismissal letter based on faulty information - how the heck were they misinformed about me failing a class? The class they said I failed, I actually did really, really well in.

They also didn't bother addressing the information that I provided about how I continuously reached out to the administration put in place to help students and how they flat out just didn't respond. I seriously believe the school is holding a grudge from me getting sick last year and how I was a pretty crappy student when I was sick - I know it sounds crazy, but the fact that I had to broadcast on social media to my peers that I needed a tutor this past block (bc the school wasn't helping), seems a bit absurd, too. I have gotten the feeling that administration is annoyed by me from the moment I got back from medical leave.

I know that I am capable of succeeding as a student and that getting mono last year was super inconvenient for everyone, but I also know that starting out this past block getting behind and scoring poorly - but taking responsibility for it and bringing my grades up from, in one class, a 43 to a 95 (!), shows that I am driven and will do whatever it takes to make sure that I am able to learn the material. I laid out a study and remediation plan in my appeal letter and let them know what I did differently to bring my grade up from absolutely atrocious to the mid-nineties.

I guess I just wanna know what you guys think, because I take issue with a) being dismissed in part because of absences that I earned (which, by the way, were in the allotted amount allowed to be missed) when I wasn't able to really even get out of bed - and have documentation from four doctors that I had mono - these were all given to the school b) dismissed, in part, when I was obviously an "at risk" student, but even in light of asking for help from appropriate people, I didn't even receive a response. I get that my grades at the beginning of this past block were horrible, and if that were the sole reason, it would be a bit more understandable, but since there seems to be more to it than that, I just want insight.

TL;DR: I know this sucks, and yes, I know that medical school is ONLY FOR THE TOUGH AND THE TOUGH ONLY (a bit of sarcasm; I do know that it takes tough-minded and strong willed peeps), but I know that I have shown the school that I am dedicated to the profession AND am capable of bringing my grades up, even when getting behind (I also revamped my study techniques and have now obviously determined what I need to look out for in regards to getting behind in the first place) - and even when the resources in place don't respond to emails inquiring about meeting for help. What would you guys do? I have appealed to the dean, but his response genuinely leads me to believe that he, at most, skimmed my appeal.

Has anyone ever won an appeal based on similar information? Do you have any words of wisdom? One of my friends has told me to "lawyer up" since, to them, it seems as if the school admin just flat out doesn't like me. You guys, I have read similar threads and know that most of the time the info isn't as convoluted as what I provided, so hopefully you all have some insight into the nuance of what I'm saying.

THANKS!

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[hopefulERdoc251]

Hi - long (obviously), but if you have any kind of experience or know somebody who knows somebody that has experience with this kind of stuff, please take a few minutes to read what I've written below.

I go to a DO school. Last year, I started school w/ class of 2019. I started feeling sick at the end of block 1, and had huge problems w/ getting up to go to class and would often ask for extensions on assignments, bc of inability to complete them - turns out, I had mono. I went on medical leave at middle of block 2, but wasn't diagnosed until April of 2016, since the mono was caused by CMV and all my docs were looking at epstein-barr, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. I requested testing for CMV (PCR & serum) and both came back positive. When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck, since I didn't know what was wrong with me but just felt overall horrible.

Flash forward to now: I was allowed to start back to school w/ the class of 2020, but only after signing a contract saying that I wouldn't be tardy to anything, miss anything, and that required me to be in counseling throughout the year (since the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave). I was also put on academic probation from 2015, and wasn't allowed to get off of it despite starting out a new year. Basically, I had to sign a "learning agreement" because my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior. I signed it, because I wanted to be back in school and didn't challenge any of the points in the contract.

I did really well in Block 1 of this year, but had to remediate a class in Block 2 & 3, which per the handbook, is totally allowed and I passed each class and was ready to tackle block 4.

Block 4 started out rough, because stuff happens, I had gotten a vicious stomach bug, stayed in the ER overnight for suspected appendicitis, and was diagnosed with a paralytic ileus. It put me out, and it was no fun, obviously. Basically I missed a week of school because of it and it put me REALLY far behind, farther behind than what I realized until the second test of cardiopulm physiology.

Here's the rub: when I realized I was behind and having trouble catching up, I emailed our academic success department about scheduling a meeting so that I could nail down a study plan and get caught up. I also emailed our medical education department several times about discussing grades and additional more boring subjects, to which I received no response. I actually had to go into the med ed office to see if they were even receiving my emails, to which they said yes, but they receive so many, that basically the one I sent got sent down to the bottom of their list to reply to. :O
I reached out for help from classmates, brought my grades up from the mid sixties to upper nineties, adjusted my study habits, etc. etc. but in the end, it wasn't enough to bring 3 of my grades up from the mid sixties, and 2 from the high sixties. Regarding how I brought my grades up, in my appeal, I had two fellow students write me letters of support, one from my tutor and one from the class president.

The school wants to dismiss me, based on what they said were academic reasons (understandable), but they also cited the absences from LAST year from when I was sick w/ mono as a reason for dismissal, along with my MCAT score and undergrad science GPA. In the letter that outlines why I am being dismissed, it clearly states that "you are being dismissed purely for academic reasons." I am unsure of how my MCAT score, absences from being sick, are even worth adding in to the letter if it's purely because of my academic performance *while* in medical school. Also, the school let me in with my MCAT score and undergrad GPA, and now they're holding it against me? I get they are trying to build a case that I am academically incompetent, but they ARE the ones that let me in...

In the dismissal letter, they also stated that I failed a course that I didn't fail (I brought this to their attention, and they rescinded it and said they were misinformed). This makes me raise an eyebrow - they had written my dismissal letter based on faulty information - how the heck were they misinformed about me failing a class? The class they said I failed, I actually did really, really well in.

They also didn't bother addressing the information that I provided about how I continuously reached out to the administration put in place to help students and how they flat out just didn't respond. I seriously believe the school is holding a grudge from me getting sick last year and how I was a pretty crappy student when I was sick - I know it sounds crazy, but the fact that I had to broadcast on social media to my peers that I needed a tutor this past block (bc the school wasn't helping), seems a bit absurd, too. I have gotten the feeling that administration is annoyed by me from the moment I got back from medical leave.

I know that I am capable of succeeding as a student and that getting mono last year was super inconvenient for everyone, but I also know that starting out this past block getting behind and scoring poorly - but taking responsibility for it and bringing my grades up from, in one class, a 43 to a 95 (!), shows that I am driven and will do whatever it takes to make sure that I am able to learn the material. I laid out a study and remediation plan in my appeal letter and let them know what I did differently to bring my grade up from absolutely atrocious to the mid-nineties.

I guess I just wanna know what you guys think, because I take issue with a) being dismissed in part because of absences that I earned (which, by the way, were in the allotted amount allowed to be missed) when I wasn't able to really even get out of bed - and have documentation from four doctors that I had mono - these were all given to the school b) dismissed, in part, when I was obviously an "at risk" student, but even in light of asking for help from appropriate people, I didn't even receive a response. I get that my grades at the beginning of this past block were horrible, and if that were the sole reason, it would be a bit more understandable, but since there seems to be more to it than that, I just want insight.

TL;DR: I know this sucks, and yes, I know that medical school is ONLY FOR THE TOUGH AND THE TOUGH ONLY (a bit of sarcasm; I do know that it takes tough-minded and strong willed peeps), but I know that I have shown the school that I am dedicated to the profession AND am capable of bringing my grades up, even when getting behind (I also revamped my study techniques and have now obviously determined what I need to look out for in regards to getting behind in the first place) - and even when the resources in place don't respond to emails inquiring about meeting for help. What would you guys do? I have appealed to the dean, but his response genuinely leads me to believe that he, at most, skimmed my appeal.

Has anyone ever won an appeal based on similar information? Do you have any words of wisdom? One of my friends has told me to "lawyer up" since, to them, it seems as if the school admin just flat out doesn't like me. You guys, I have read similar threads and know that most of the time the info isn't as convoluted as what I provided, so hopefully you all have some insight into the nuance of what I'm saying.

THANKS!

I hate when people say the whole "lawyer up" stuff, but since you signed a contract and the school might not have everything straight, I would think that's a decent strategy. If you made multiple attempts to contact the appropriate people, save that documentation (paper trail is always useful). Hope all works out well for you, OP!

 

[DocWinter]

The school wants to dismiss me, based on what they said were academic reasons (understandable), but they also cited the absences from LAST year from when I was sick w/ mono as a reason for dismissal, along with my MCAT score and undergrad science GPA

It sounds like you know why you're getting dismissed and agree that it is justifiable. The academic reasons alone seem to be grounds enough, and the GPA/MCAT issues might just be reinforcement that you're not the kind of student that can bounce back or academically raise your level. The context in which it is being provided seems to confirm your "at risk" status. You established yourself as a poor student and gave administration every reason to see you as that. While you have climbed out of holes, your track record of failing classes after a remediation and warning with signed agreements does not bode well for you.

I doubt you succeed unless you have friends in high places

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Back up every e-mail you have with the school immediately. If a school is shown to not accommodate to a student with obvious health problems, this could be grounds of a lawsuit.

 

[zero0]

Situations like this are usually a losing battle. If a school wants you gone, they'll just get rid of you and come up with reasons sort of after the fact, as you may have noticed. Some of these DO schools are real crapholes with too many students and not enough infrastructure to support them. That said, if you get dismissed, it's unlikely you'll ever be a physician. If you're ok with that, then the answer is easy. If not, then you're looking at legal recourse with virtually no chance of success.

You mentioned all the ways your academic history didn't violate school policy. What part DID you violate? If you did something that clearly went against school policy then you don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[bollocks1234]

You mentioned all the ways your academic history didn't violate school policy. What part DID you violate? If you did something that clearly went against school policy then you don't have a dog in this fight.

I did poorly in more than two classes this block. The reason I'm appealing the decision is because I reached out to the academic success department & medical education department for assistance, and they flat out just didn't respond. Now they are using data from last year when I had mono to back up their case about why I should be dismissed.

Hope that clarifies.

 

[bollocks1234]

Back up every e-mail you have with the school immediately. If a school is shown to not accommodate to a student with obvious health problems, this could be grounds of a lawsuit.

I definitely have every email I've sent, and even included them in the appeal letter. The Dean's response back to me didn't even address the screenshots I showed him. :/

I definitely feel like I am being punished for getting sick last year. Like I said, I know it sounds paranoid, but I genuinely get the gut feeling that they don't like me and want me gone.

 

[bollocks1234]

It sounds like you know why you're getting dismissed and agree that it is justifiable. The academic reasons alone seem to be grounds enough, and the GPA/MCAT issues might just be reinforcement that you're not the kind of student that can bounce back or academically raise your level. The context I which it is being provided seems to confirm your "at risk"status. You established yourself as a poor student and gave administration every reason to see you as that. While you have climbed out off holes, your track record of failing classes after a remediation and warning with signed agreements does not bode well for you.

I doubt you succeed unless you have friends in high places

Thanks, I agree that the academic reasons are certainly grounds for dismissal; however, our handbook says (paraphrasing): students who are shown to be unable to progress academically may be recommended for dismissal. Given the context of reaching out to the appropriate resources and them not responding, and the fact that I brought my grades up significantly in the middle of the block after getting a tutor/changing study styles, makes me feel as if a) I was never given the resources the school claims to make available to help students succeed b) I have shown that I can progress academically c) in my dismissal letter, the dean stated that I had failed a class that, in fact, I did quite well in. I had to point out this mistake, to which he responded, that he was misinformed. All of those points leave me a bit disconcerted, especially where the dean was misinformed about one of my grades.

And, I agree with you about the chances of success in my endeavor. But, such is reality.

 

[bollocks1234]

I hate when people say the whole "lawyer up" stuff, but since you signed a contract and the school might not have everything straight, I would think that's a decent strategy. If you made multiple attempts to contact the appropriate people, save that documentation (paper trail is always useful). Hope all works out well for you, OP!

Thanks, friend! I hope it does, too. I really have worked so hard to get here (as we all have), and am confident in myself...it's just a matter of convincing the appropriate people to be confident in me, too...I am also, naturally, wondering why the administration seemed unwilling/unable to provide adequate help, even when a student is asking for it.

Paper trail is saved and thank you!

 

[bollocks1234]

Situations like this are usually a losing battle. If a school wants you gone, they'll just get rid of you and come up with reasons sort of after the fact, as you may have noticed. Some of these DO schools are real crapholes with too many students and not enough infrastructure to support them. That said, if you get dismissed, it's unlikely you'll ever be a physician. If you're ok with that, then the answer is easy. If not, then you're looking at legal recourse with virtually no chance of success.

You mentioned all the ways your academic history didn't violate school policy. What part DID you violate? If you did something that clearly went against school policy then you don't have a dog in this fight.

Also, wanted to mention - I agree with the DO infrastructure part. I feel like there is absolutely no-one to hold administration accountable and they can just make up rules as they go.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

There was another guy here who got sick and got dismissed. He got back in after like 3-4 years after losing the appeal. Who is he again?

 

[bollocks1234]

There was another guy here who got sick and got dismissed. He got back in after like 3-4 years after losing the appeal. Who is he again?

Oh yeah, I think that I read about him in doing my research. He's an ER doc now, I think. I will try and see what I can find, thanks for reminding me about that.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I definitely have every email I've sent, and even included them in the appeal letter. The Dean's response back to me didn't even address the screenshots I showed him. :/

I definitely feel like I am being punished for getting sick last year. Like I said, I know it sounds paranoid, but I genuinely get the gut feeling that they don't like me and want me gone.

Of course, accommodations for you is time they don't want to spend. It's horrifying that a medical school is punishing someone due to illness under the excuse of academics.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

I read your post twice. You signed a contract and, per the terms that YOU agreed to with admins, you broke it. My school has a very similar dismissal policy, which is absolutely zero tolerance for failure (below 70%) for students that are repeating the year for academic reasons. We had a student who was repeating the year but failed the Pulm module by 4 questions (out of 120) and was dismissed. It looks like they accommodated you for your stomach bug this year, which negates the previous posters claim of noncompliance with federal protections for accommodations. I know it sounds harsh but that's the policy. Honestly, you should probably be happy that they didn't include behavior/attitude/social barriers in your dismissal letter which could negatively impact future admission to graduate school.

 

[bollocks1234]

I read your post twice. You signed a contract and, per the terms that YOU agreed to with admins, you broke it. My school has a very similar dismissal policy, which is absolutely zero tolerance for failure (below 70%) for students that are repeating the year for academic reasons. We had a student who was repeating the year but failed the Pulm module by 4 questions (out of 120) and was dismissed. It looks like they accommodated you for your stomach bug this year, which negates the previous posters claim of noncompliance with federal protections for accommodations. I know it sounds harsh but that's the policy. Honestly, you should probably be happy that they didn't include behavior/attitude/social barriers in your dismissal letter which could negatively impact future admission to graduate school.

I am curious as to how the school accommodated me with the stomach bug this year. Also, curious about what kind of behavior/attitude/social barriers I have that would even be applicable in a dismissal letter.

They did absolutely nothing to accommodate me and didn't even bother emailing me back...seriously, I am asking respectfully...

I also am not repeating the year for academic reasons - I went on medical leave bc I had mono, which was a major bummer.

Also, edited bc I wanted to add...the contract they made me sign - I didn't fail to comply with it...stayed within the allotted allowed absence days...showed up to everything, unless I had a documented reason why I needed to miss...I took responsibility for my grades, but also demonstrated that I tried to reach out to folks in the academic success department, which are considered important to at risk students' success...no reply

Last edit: thanks for your honest take on the situation!

 

[hallowmann]

I am curious as to how the school accommodated me with the stomach bug this year. Also, curious about what kind of behavior/attitude/social barriers I have that would even be applicable in a dismissal letter.

They did absolutely nothing to accommodate me and didn't even bother emailing me back...seriously, I am asking respectfully...

I also am not repeating the year for academic reasons - I went on medical leave bc I had mono, which was a major bummer.

Also, edited bc I wanted to add...the contract they made me sign - I didn't fail to comply with it...stayed within the allotted allowed absence days...showed up to everything, unless I had a documented reason why I needed to miss...I took responsibility for my grades, but also demonstrated that I tried to reach out to folks in the academic success department, which are considered important to at risk students' success...no reply

Last edit: thanks for your honest take on the situation!

I want to be clear with this, that I do not mean to give you a hard time with this reply, nor do I mean to judge your overall ability, I simply want to explain what I understand from your posts and the viewpoint that I suspect your school had in this process.

I read your first post, and while I agree that its unfortunate that you're in this situation, you really have no strong argument against them. Yes, they didn't give you help when you asked for it in an email, but you already had a pretty extensive record of not doing well academically (even if we ignore the poor performance when you were sick - which we should) and I'm honestly wondering how much time you had from that request for help to fix your grades given that even with a classmate tutor getting you to the high-90s, you still ended up failing what sounds like 5? courses (3 in the mid-sixties and 2 in the high sixties) in the block. You also said that you had to remediate classes in 2 blocks this year already. These are all signs of pretty extensive academic performance issues.

For most medical students, missing a week, while detrimental to grades, including even failing a class in a block, should not result in failing what sounds like the majority (all?) of the classes in a block.

I really don't think they were holding a grudge against you for getting sick, and them using your history as a poor test taker (MCAT) or poor academic performer (GPA) is more as DocWinter said part of them making a case that you are not capable of recovering enough to complete medical school or attain a residency position (without which a medical degree is practically useless).

You also described how you handled your situation yourself with "When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck...", they required you to be in counseling because "the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave", and "my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior". Even if you're sick, you're an adult, and you are still responsible for your actions. Its sucks, but pretty much everyone who takes medical leave is sick, and it sounds like even in that process, you did not behave in a manner expected of even a sick medical student requesting medical leave. Its unfortunate that you got sick in the beginning of medical school, but sometimes things like this happen, and we have to adjust in some situations and recognize our limitations in the moment.

To be clear, I don't mean to pile on you. I just want you to take a step back and look at this from an outside perspective. It may not seem like it now, but they may be doing you a favor. Its better this happens now than at the end of MS2 when you have almost twice as much debt. I'm not sure if you can succeed in medical school. Maybe you can, but in your current state, I don't believe that's possible.

It is their policy, as you said, that "students who are shown to be unable to progress academically may be recommended for dismissal". You showed this to them. Asking for help was the right decision to make on your part, and it probably gave you the best chance at not being dismissed, but it in and of itself isn't enough to prove to the school that you should not be dismissed.

I understand your frustration, and I'm sorry this happened to you, but outside of going through the normal appeal process and maybe requesting that they make this a withdrawal instead of a dismissal in their record, I think it will be best if you simply take a step back and evaluate whether now is the right time for med school or whether med school is right at all.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I want to be clear with this, that I do not mean to give you a hard time with this reply, nor do I mean to judge your overall ability, I simply want to explain what I understand from your posts and the viewpoint that I suspect your school had in this process.

I read your first post, and while I agree that its unfortunate that you're in this situation, you really have no strong argument against them. Yes, they didn't give you help when you asked for it in an email, but you already had a pretty extensive record of not doing well academically (even if we ignore the poor performance when you were sick - which we should) and I'm honestly wondering how much time you had from that request for help to fix your grades given that even with a classmate tutor getting you to the high-90s, you still ended up failing what sounds like 5? courses (3 in the mid-sixties and 2 in the high sixties) in the block. You also said that you had to remediate classes in 2 blocks this year already. These are all signs of pretty extensive academic performance issues.

For most medical students, missing a week, while detrimental to grades, including even failing a class in a block, should not result in failing what sounds like the majority (all?) of the classes in a block.

I really don't think they were holding a grudge against you for getting sick, and them using your history as a poor test taker (MCAT) or poor academic performer (GPA) is more as DocWinter said part of them making a case that you are not capable of recovering enough to complete medical school or attain a residency position (without which a medical degree is practically useless).

You also described how you handled your situation yourself with "When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck...", they required you to be in counseling because "the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave", and "my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior". Even if you're sick, you're an adult, and you are still responsible for your actions. Its sucks, but pretty much everyone who takes medical leave is sick, and it sounds like even in that process, you did not behave in a manner expected of even a sick medical student requesting medical leave. Its unfortunate that you got sick in the beginning of medical school, but sometimes things like this happen, and we have to adjust in some situations and recognize our limitations in the moment.

To be clear, I don't mean to pile on you. I just want you to take a step back and look at this from an outside perspective. It may not seem like it now, but they may be doing you a favor. Its better this happens now than at the end of MS2 when you have almost twice as much debt. I'm not sure if you can succeed in medical school. Maybe you can, but in your current state, I don't believe that's possible.

It is their policy, as you said, that "students who are shown to be unable to progress academically may be recommended for dismissal". You showed this to them. Asking for help was the right decision to make on your part, and it probably gave you the best chance at not being dismissed, but it in and of itself isn't enough to prove to the school that you should not be dismissed.

I understand your frustration, and I'm sorry this happened to you, but outside of going through the normal appeal process and maybe requesting that they make this a withdrawal instead of a dismissal in their record, I think it will be best if you simply take a step back and evaluate whether now is the right time for med school or whether med school is right at all.

Don't agree. He played by the rules of the game. Remediated classes as the school allows. Asked for help and never received any from the school. They didn't accommodate his illness. Improvement on grades gets no consideration The school then dismisses with incorrect information. These are all signs that the school is a disaster and doesn't want to support sick students because it's inconvenient.

 

[Mad Jack]

Here's the thing- you used multiple relatively minor illnesses as your reason for poor performance. They don't even write notes for a day off for a high school kid that gets mono at most offices, let alone provide am excuse for failing an entire block and then some of medical school. I know plenty of people that have tested with the flu or any other number of bugs- life doesn't stop just because you're sick. You've got to keep on moving forward. In residency, you're expected to function well regardless of your personal life and health, an expectation that you must hold yourself to as a physician. Your patients can't have a physician that can't perform because they've got a case of the flu or some diarrhea. That's what this dismissal comes down to. It's not like you had cancer, an HIV diagnosis, or some other crippling health event.

 

[deleted480308]

Here's the thing- you used multiple relatively minor illnesses as your reason for poor performance. They don't even write notes for a day off for a high school kid that gets mono at most offices, let alone provide am excuse for failing an entire block and then some of medical school. I know plenty of people that have tested with the flu or any other number of bugs- life doesn't stop just because you're sick. You've got to keep on moving forward. In residency, you're expected to function well regardless of your personal life and health, an expectation that you must hold yourself to as a physician. Your patients can't have a physician that can't perform because they've got a case of the flu or some diarrhea. That's what this dismissal comes down to. It's not like you had cancer, an HIV diagnosis, or some other crippling health event.

For better or worse, the put out or get out nature of this process doesn't stop on the wards either

 

[Goro]

I am very sorry to hear of your troubles.

Start by appealing to your Dean, and then work up the chain of command to University Provost/President/CEO and/or Chancellor.

I am worried about the fact that you were an academically weak student. Apparently, your health problems didn't start until you were OMSII, correct? And you were in trouble before the CMV mono? In general, academically weak students are held to a higher standard because they're at much greater risk.

I think that they are citing your UG GPA and MCAT as a means of showing that these put you more at risk for failure, despite the fact that they admitted you. I surmise that if these stats were low, that the school gambled on you, but for a number of reasons couldn't rise to the occasion.

I can't understand why they would cite your illness as a reason for dismissal, unless you're omitting something (which unfortunately tends to happen in posts like these).

I've had students who were hospitalized for a week with severe infections but yet they still managed to bounce back. If you were failing or borderline at that time, a lost week would indeed be catastrophic for your hopes of passing.

Hi - long (obviously), but if you have any kind of experience or know somebody who knows somebody that has experience with this kind of stuff, please take a few minutes to read what I've written below.

I go to a DO school. Last year, I started school w/ class of 2019. I started feeling sick at the end of block 1, and had huge problems w/ getting up to go to class and would often ask for extensions on assignments, bc of inability to complete them - turns out, I had mono. I went on medical leave at middle of block 2, but wasn't diagnosed until April of 2016, since the mono was caused by CMV and all my docs were looking at epstein-barr, lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. I requested testing for CMV (PCR & serum) and both came back positive. When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck, since I didn't know what was wrong with me but just felt overall horrible.

Flash forward to now: I was allowed to start back to school w/ the class of 2020, but only after signing a contract saying that I wouldn't be tardy to anything, miss anything, and that required me to be in counseling throughout the year (since the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave). I was also put on academic probation from 2015, and wasn't allowed to get off of it despite starting out a new year. Basically, I had to sign a "learning agreement" because my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior. I signed it, because I wanted to be back in school and didn't challenge any of the points in the contract.

I did really well in Block 1 of this year, but had to remediate a class in Block 2 & 3, which per the handbook, is totally allowed and I passed each class and was ready to tackle block 4.

Block 4 started out rough, because stuff happens, I had gotten a vicious stomach bug, stayed in the ER overnight for suspected appendicitis, and was diagnosed with a paralytic ileus. It put me out, and it was no fun, obviously. Basically I missed a week of school because of it and it put me REALLY far behind, farther behind than what I realized until the second test of cardiopulm physiology.

Here's the rub: when I realized I was behind and having trouble catching up, I emailed our academic success department about scheduling a meeting so that I could nail down a study plan and get caught up. I also emailed our medical education department several times about discussing grades and additional more boring subjects, to which I received no response. I actually had to go into the med ed office to see if they were even receiving my emails, to which they said yes, but they receive so many, that basically the one I sent got sent down to the bottom of their list to reply to. :O
I reached out for help from classmates, brought my grades up from the mid sixties to upper nineties, adjusted my study habits, etc. etc. but in the end, it wasn't enough to bring 3 of my grades up from the mid sixties, and 2 from the high sixties. Regarding how I brought my grades up, in my appeal, I had two fellow students write me letters of support, one from my tutor and one from the class president.



THANKS!

 

[thehatroom]

Here's the thing- you used multiple relatively minor illnesses as your reason for poor performance. They don't even write notes for a day off for a high school kid that gets mono at most offices, let alone provide am excuse for failing an entire block and then some of medical school. I know plenty of people that have tested with the flu or any other number of bugs- life doesn't stop just because you're sick. You've got to keep on moving forward. In residency, you're expected to function well regardless of your personal life and health, an expectation that you must hold yourself to as a physician. Your patients can't have a physician that can't perform because they've got a case of the flu or some diarrhea. That's what this dismissal comes down to. It's not like you had cancer, an HIV diagnosis, or some other crippling health event.

For someone going through such a hard time right now, pleading for any hope they can continue on the course that you (I assume?) and I have the privilege of being on, I don't think your approach to the situation is appropriate. Undermining someone's health issues without being in their shoes is a lofty stance. It's one thing to be honest, but being rude about it is just unnecessary. Have some compassion.

 

[bollocks1234]

I read your post twice. You signed a contract and, per the terms that YOU agreed to with admins, you broke it. My school has a very similar dismissal policy, which is absolutely zero tolerance for failure (below 70%) for students that are repeating the year for academic reasons. We had a student who was repeating the year but failed the Pulm module by 4 questions (out of 120) and was dismissed. It looks like they accommodated you for your stomach bug this year, which negates the previous posters claim of noncompliance with federal protections for accommodations. I know it sounds harsh but that's the policy. Honestly, you should probably be happy that they didn't include behavior/attitude/social barriers in your dismissal letter which could negatively impact future admission to graduate school.

I am very sorry to hear of your troubles.

Start by appealing to your Dean, and then work up the chain of command to University Provost/President/CEO and/or Chancellor.
Goro, good advice - and I have done that. Am in the process of figuring out what "new" and substantive information to provide in my appeal to the Provost.

I am worried about the fact that you were an academically weak student. Apparently, your health problems didn't start until you were OMSII, correct? And you were in trouble before the CMV mono? In general, academically weak students are held to a higher standard because they're at much greater risk.
Actually, I got mono in OMS I, and ended up going on medical leave. I was doing okay before going on medical leave, despite trouble w/ one class...I left in the middle of block 2. I came back from medical leave to start OMS I over, made it through a-ok and hit a road-block in block 4, by missing a week of classes.

I think that they are citing your UG GPA and MCAT as a means of showing that these put you more at risk for failure, despite the fact that they admitted you. I surmise that if these stats were low, that the school gambled on you, but for a number of reasons couldn't rise to the occasion.
True.

I can't understand why they would cite your illness as a reason for dismissal, unless you're omitting something (which unfortunately tends to happen in posts like these).
I agree, students do tend to selectively edit details. In my dismissal letter, they cited the number of absences I had gotten in 2015 - where I quote from the dean's letter "your poor attendance record prior to leaving curriculum during block 2 on medical leave (necessitating a behavior contract for your re-entry in 2016)." The poor attendance record was a) within the school's allotted allowed absentee days, and b) when I was in the crappy position of having the mono.

I've had students who were hospitalized for a week with severe infections but yet they still managed to bounce back. If you were failing or borderline at that time, a lost week would indeed be catastrophic for your hopes of passing.
When I missed a week, I was indeed borderline.

Whoops, replied to the wrong post!!

 

[deleted480308]

For someone going through such a hard time right now, pleading for any hope they can continue on the course that you (I assume?) and I have the privilege of being on, I don't think your approach to the situation is appropriate. Undermining someone's health issues without being in their shoes is a lofty stance. It's one thing to be honest, but being rude about it is just unnecessary. Have some compassion.

Cold =/= rude

Madjack was accurate, and still less cold than this process

 

[bollocks1234]

I am very sorry to hear of your troubles.

Start by appealing to your Dean, and then work up the chain of command to University Provost/President/CEO and/or Chancellor.

I am worried about the fact that you were an academically weak student. Apparently, your health problems didn't start until you were OMSII, correct? And you were in trouble before the CMV mono? In general, academically weak students are held to a higher standard because they're at much greater risk.

I think that they are citing your UG GPA and MCAT as a means of showing that these put you more at risk for failure, despite the fact that they admitted you. I surmise that if these stats were low, that the school gambled on you, but for a number of reasons couldn't rise to the occasion.

I can't understand why they would cite your illness as a reason for dismissal, unless you're omitting something (which unfortunately tends to happen in posts like these).

I've had students who were hospitalized for a week with severe infections but yet they still managed to bounce back. If you were failing or borderline at that time, a lost week would indeed be catastrophic for your hopes of passing.

Start by appealing to your Dean, and then work up the chain of command to University Provost/President/CEO and/or Chancellor.
Goro, good advice - and I have done that. Am in the process of figuring out what "new" and substantive information to provide in my appeal to the Provost.

I am worried about the fact that you were an academically weak student. Apparently, your health problems didn't start until you were OMSII, correct? And you were in trouble before the CMV mono? In general, academically weak students are held to a higher standard because they're at much greater risk.
Actually, I got mono in OMS I, and ended up going on medical leave. I was doing okay before going on medical leave, despite trouble w/ one class...I left in the middle of block 2. I came back from medical leave to start OMS I over, made it through a-ok and hit a road-block in block 4, by missing a week of classes.

I think that they are citing your UG GPA and MCAT as a means of showing that these put you more at risk for failure, despite the fact that they admitted you. I surmise that if these stats were low, that the school gambled on you, but for a number of reasons couldn't rise to the occasion.
True.

I can't understand why they would cite your illness as a reason for dismissal, unless you're omitting something (which unfortunately tends to happen in posts like these).
I agree, students do tend to selectively edit details. In my dismissal letter, they cited the number of absences I had gotten in 2015 - where I quote from the dean's letter "your poor attendance record prior to leaving curriculum during block 2 on medical leave (necessitating a behavior contract for your re-entry in 2016)." The poor attendance record was a) within the school's allotted allowed absentee days, and b) when I was in the crappy position of having the mono.

I've had students who were hospitalized for a week with severe infections but yet they still managed to bounce back. If you were failing or borderline at that time, a lost week would indeed be catastrophic for your hopes of passing.
When I missed a week, I was indeed borderline.

[/QUOTE]

 

[bollocks1234]

Here's the thing- you used multiple relatively minor illnesses as your reason for poor performance. They don't even write notes for a day off for a high school kid that gets mono at most offices, let alone provide am excuse for failing an entire block and then some of medical school. I know plenty of people that have tested with the flu or any other number of bugs- life doesn't stop just because you're sick. You've got to keep on moving forward. In residency, you're expected to function well regardless of your personal life and health, an expectation that you must hold yourself to as a physician. Your patients can't have a physician that can't perform because they've got a case of the flu or some diarrhea. That's what this dismissal comes down to. It's not like you had cancer, an HIV diagnosis, or some other crippling health event.

I honestly have to, respectfully, disagree with you about offices and whether they write a note for a day off for mono. Considering the complications that can arise from it, and considering those that "push through", it's not a matter of body vs. mind: sometimes in order to be the best whatever it is you are, you have to ensure that you are healthy.

Honestly, I think this is one of the problems with how our medical schools and residencies are setup.

There is this pervasive mentality that the provider's health (both mental & physical) ought to be consistently secondary to those of his/her patients. I'm not saying that docs shouldn't be held to a higher standard or that missing a week because of the sniffles is okay, but for there to be a surprising and disheartening number of medical students and physicians committing suicide/being dx with depression/turning to substance abuse, etc etc etc bc they feel unsupported...I dunno, I just think that those figures speak for themselves when discussing the "only the tough survive" mentality.

 

[bollocks1234]

For better or worse, the put out or get out nature of this process doesn't stop on the wards either

You're right.

 

[bollocks1234]

I want to be clear with this, that I do not mean to give you a hard time with this reply, nor do I mean to judge your overall ability, I simply want to explain what I understand from your posts and the viewpoint that I suspect your school had in this process.

I read your first post, and while I agree that its unfortunate that you're in this situation, you really have no strong argument against them. Yes, they didn't give you help when you asked for it in an email, but you already had a pretty extensive record of not doing well academically (even if we ignore the poor performance when you were sick - which we should) and I'm honestly wondering how much time you had from that request for help to fix your grades given that even with a classmate tutor getting you to the high-90s, you still ended up failing what sounds like 5? courses (3 in the mid-sixties and 2 in the high sixties) in the block. You also said that you had to remediate classes in 2 blocks this year already. These are all signs of pretty extensive academic performance issues.

For most medical students, missing a week, while detrimental to grades, including even failing a class in a block, should not result in failing what sounds like the majority (all?) of the classes in a block.

I really don't think they were holding a grudge against you for getting sick, and them using your history as a poor test taker (MCAT) or poor academic performer (GPA) is more as DocWinter said part of them making a case that you are not capable of recovering enough to complete medical school or attain a residency position (without which a medical degree is practically useless).

You also described how you handled your situation yourself with "When I was leaving school, I was obviously an emotional wreck...", they required you to be in counseling because "the administrators saw me upset, crying, and generally being a sloth in the process of going on medical leave", and "my behavior while I was sick wasn't acceptable healthy medical school student behavior". Even if you're sick, you're an adult, and you are still responsible for your actions. Its sucks, but pretty much everyone who takes medical leave is sick, and it sounds like even in that process, you did not behave in a manner expected of even a sick medical student requesting medical leave. Its unfortunate that you got sick in the beginning of medical school, but sometimes things like this happen, and we have to adjust in some situations and recognize our limitations in the moment.

To be clear, I don't mean to pile on you. I just want you to take a step back and look at this from an outside perspective. It may not seem like it now, but they may be doing you a favor. Its better this happens now than at the end of MS2 when you have almost twice as much debt. I'm not sure if you can succeed in medical school. Maybe you can, but in your current state, I don't believe that's possible.

It is their policy, as you said, that "students who are shown to be unable to progress academically may be recommended for dismissal". You showed this to them. Asking for help was the right decision to make on your part, and it probably gave you the best chance at not being dismissed, but it in and of itself isn't enough to prove to the school that you should not be dismissed.

I understand your frustration, and I'm sorry this happened to you, but outside of going through the normal appeal process and maybe requesting that they make this a withdrawal instead of a dismissal in their record, I think it will be best if you simply take a step back and evaluate whether now is the right time for med school or whether med school is right at all.

Very thoughtful reply. I genuinely appreciate your response. Does the fact that I brought my grades up from the 50's/60's to the 80's/90's have any impact on my case, do you think?

Additionally, I worry that if dismissed, I wouldn't be able to get into any professional school in the future. I plan on inquiring about withdrawing tomorrow at my meeting with the dean, if they are reticent to accept my second appeal.

 

[bollocks1234]

Okay, just wanted to give folks a bit of an update and follow up with some questions.

I'm meeting with the campus dean tomorrow to discuss the following:

1) How, in my dismissal letter, dean stated that I had failed a class that I did not fail. He stated that he was misinformed, but his decision remains the same. Obviously, it's disconcerting that there was such egregious misinformation provided to him regarding my future.
2) If it would be better for me to withdraw from school - and if I even have that option.
3) How, if students are deemed to be at risk, they should obtain help from the academic success (AS) department if the department does not reply to emails (a fellow student was actually reamed for not responding to the AS dept, and this was actually used during his meeting with the promotion board, with the implication that his grades would have been better had he responded to the dept's emails...not necessarily going to bring that up, just wanted to provide detail)
4) What kind of information qualifies as new and substantive, which is required for my appeal to the Provost. I know that having my original dismissal letter being constructed with faulty information is new...and makes me question the integrity of this entire process. Any thoughts?

You guys, I take total responsibility for my grades. Seriously. I just also realize that I brought them all up in the middle of the block, but unfortunately, the tests at the end of the block were weighted way less than the ones in the beginning...so even though I brought them up, it wasn't enough. That's something that bothers me and it may be too little, too late...but I wish that they would just address the fact that I worked so hard, without their help, to bring my grades up more than 60 points. That's kind of huge, in my mind. But, alas - I am not admin and don't make the rules.

Any more insight is so appreciated. Really, truly. Thank you for your thoughts, feedback, and critique. I take it all in hopes to learn from this...

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Okay, just wanted to give folks a bit of an update and follow up with some questions.

I'm meeting with the campus dean tomorrow to discuss the following:

1) How, in my dismissal letter, dean stated that I had failed a class that I did not fail. He stated that he was misinformed, but his decision remains the same. Obviously, it's disconcerting that there was such egregious misinformation provided to him regarding my future.
2) If it would be better for me to withdraw from school - and if I even have that option.
3) How, if students are deemed to be at risk, they should obtain help from the academic success (AS) department if the department does not reply to emails (a fellow student was actually reamed for not responding to the AS dept, and this was actually used during his meeting with the promotion board, with the implication that his grades would have been better had he responded to the dept's emails...not necessarily going to bring that up, just wanted to provide detail)
4) What kind of information qualifies as new and substantive, which is required for my appeal to the Provost. I know that having my original dismissal letter being constructed with faulty information is new...and makes me question the integrity of this entire process. Any thoughts?

You guys, I take total responsibility for my grades. Seriously. I just also realize that I brought them all up in the middle of the block, but unfortunately, the tests at the end of the block were weighted way less than the ones in the beginning...so even though I brought them up, it wasn't enough. That's something that bothers me and it may be too little, too late...but I wish that they would just address the fact that I worked so hard, without their help, to bring my grades up more than 60 points. That's kind of huge, in my mind. But, alas - I am not admin and don't make the rules.

Any more insight is so appreciated. Really, truly. Thank you for your thoughts, feedback, and critique. I take it all in hopes to learn from this...

Best of luck with your meeting tomorrow. I hope you get some constructive feedback.

 

[thehatroom]

Okay, just wanted to give folks a bit of an update and follow up with some questions.

I'm meeting with the campus dean tomorrow to discuss the following:

1) How, in my dismissal letter, dean stated that I had failed a class that I did not fail. He stated that he was misinformed, but his decision remains the same. Obviously, it's disconcerting that there was such egregious misinformation provided to him regarding my future.
2) If it would be better for me to withdraw from school - and if I even have that option.
3) How, if students are deemed to be at risk, they should obtain help from the academic success (AS) department if the department does not reply to emails (a fellow student was actually reamed for not responding to the AS dept, and this was actually used during his meeting with the promotion board, with the implication that his grades would have been better had he responded to the dept's emails...not necessarily going to bring that up, just wanted to provide detail)
4) What kind of information qualifies as new and substantive, which is required for my appeal to the Provost. I know that having my original dismissal letter being constructed with faulty information is new...and makes me question the integrity of this entire process. Any thoughts?

You guys, I take total responsibility for my grades. Seriously. I just also realize that I brought them all up in the middle of the block, but unfortunately, the tests at the end of the block were weighted way less than the ones in the beginning...so even though I brought them up, it wasn't enough. That's something that bothers me and it may be too little, too late...but I wish that they would just address the fact that I worked so hard, without their help, to bring my grades up more than 60 points. That's kind of huge, in my mind. But, alas - I am not admin and don't make the rules.

Any more insight is so appreciated. Really, truly. Thank you for your thoughts, feedback, and critique. I take it all in hopes to learn from this...

You seem very intelligent and well spoken through reading your posts/responses to posts. You sought help and accepted every piece of feedback-- that shows remarkable character. Go in there and fight like hell.

 

[thehatroom]

I honestly have to, respectfully, disagree with you about offices and whether they write a note for a day off for mono. Considering the complications that can arise from it, and considering those that "push through", it's not a matter of body vs. mind: sometimes in order to be the best whatever it is you are, you have to ensure that you are healthy.

Honestly, I think this is one of the problems with how our medical schools and residencies are setup.

There is this pervasive mentality that the provider's health (both mental & physical) ought to be consistently secondary to those of his/her patients. I'm not saying that docs shouldn't be held to a higher standard or that missing a week because of the sniffles is okay, but for there to be a surprising and disheartening number of medical students and physicians committing suicide/being dx with depression/turning to substance abuse, etc etc etc bc they feel unsupported...I dunno, I just think that those figures speak for themselves when discussing the "only the tough survive" mentality.

This could not be more accurate. Very well put!

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Good luck tomorrow. U gonna be a doc one day

 

[IsWhat]

Okay, just wanted to give folks a bit of an update and follow up with some questions.

I'm meeting with the campus dean tomorrow to discuss the following:

1) How, in my dismissal letter, dean stated that I had failed a class that I did not fail. He stated that he was misinformed, but his decision remains the same. Obviously, it's disconcerting that there was such egregious misinformation provided to him regarding my future.
2) If it would be better for me to withdraw from school - and if I even have that option.
3) How, if students are deemed to be at risk, they should obtain help from the academic success (AS) department if the department does not reply to emails (a fellow student was actually reamed for not responding to the AS dept, and this was actually used during his meeting with the promotion board, with the implication that his grades would have been better had he responded to the dept's emails...not necessarily going to bring that up, just wanted to provide detail)
4) What kind of information qualifies as new and substantive, which is required for my appeal to the Provost. I know that having my original dismissal letter being constructed with faulty information is new...and makes me question the integrity of this entire process. Any thoughts?

You guys, I take total responsibility for my grades. Seriously. I just also realize that I brought them all up in the middle of the block, but unfortunately, the tests at the end of the block were weighted way less than the ones in the beginning...so even though I brought them up, it wasn't enough. That's something that bothers me and it may be too little, too late...but I wish that they would just address the fact that I worked so hard, without their help, to bring my grades up more than 60 points. That's kind of huge, in my mind. But, alas - I am not admin and don't make the rules.

Any more insight is so appreciated. Really, truly. Thank you for your thoughts, feedback, and critique. I take it all in hopes to learn from this...

I'm sorry you are in this position OP, and I hope your meeting with the Dean gives you some options. To be honest, it sounds like every time you get sick everything falls apart on you, and your school has likely deemed this a liability moving forward in your training and into residency. Right or wrong, medical training is set up in a way that requires all hands on deck, and missing days (especially in residency) puts a massive strain on the system and your colleagues.

If you are still interested in continuing school, my advice to you is make it clear to the dean that you will not let anything get in the way of your studies from here on out. People make it through SEAL training with broken legs - you just need to find a way, no matter what.

 

[DocWinter]

Good luck tomorrow.

There are some posters on SDN who revel a bit much (IMO) in others unfortunate circumstances and can be more deflating than helpful. I however think you've been given overall good assessments here from people who won't sugar coat, and while we don't want you to fail, we still will give our most honest differential.

 

[Mad Jack]

I honestly have to, respectfully, disagree with you about offices and whether they write a note for a day off for mono. Considering the complications that can arise from it, and considering those that "push through", it's not a matter of body vs. mind: sometimes in order to be the best whatever it is you are, you have to ensure that you are healthy.

Honestly, I think this is one of the problems with how our medical schools and residencies are setup.

There is this pervasive mentality that the provider's health (both mental & physical) ought to be consistently secondary to those of his/her patients. I'm not saying that docs shouldn't be held to a higher standard or that missing a week because of the sniffles is okay, but for there to be a surprising and disheartening number of medical students and physicians committing suicide/being dx with depression/turning to substance abuse, etc etc etc bc they feel unsupported...I dunno, I just think that those figures speak for themselves when discussing the "only the tough survive" mentality.

You made it sound as if you missed more than a day or two. Sounds like you had more than a block of poor performance.

It isn't that the doctor's health doesn't matter, it's that you're going to be sick, and when you are, sometimes you've just kind of got to suck it up. Mono lasts for weeks, but yet you don't see people failing out of school left and right when they get it- it is largely a tiring inconvenience. I guess my point is that your mono sounds like more of an excuse than a reason. And I'm not trying to be brutal here, but that's probably how it looks to administration as well, which is why I was laying it out this way. In understanding why you're being dismissed, it helps to formulate any final appeals you might have. What can you say to convince them or myself that you were, in fact, deathly ill with mono, and furthermore ended up getting the flu so bad it was impossible for you to function? You have an established pattern of failure twice over that you do not own (you make it sound as if you are laying the blame on circumstances outside of your control until the very end) and furthermore it sound like you handled poorly on an emotional level. I'd probably give you a final chance, but I also would not be surprised when the same thing happened again, because that tends to be the way these things go. Perhaps, given what they know of you, they're just not willing to give you your third strike. Good luck, in any case. People have come back from worse.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm sorry you are in this position OP, and I hope your meeting with the Dean gives you some options. To be honest, it sounds like every time you get sick everything falls apart on you, and your school has likely deemed this a liability moving forward in your training and into residency. Right or wrong, medical training is set up in a way that requires all hands on deck, and missing days (especially in residency) puts a massive strain on the system and your colleagues.

If you are still interested in continuing school, my advice to you is make it clear to the dean that you will not let anything get in the way of your studies from here on out. People make it through SEAL training with broken legs - you just need to find a way, no matter what.

This is kind of in line with my point- if a SEAL can make it through training with a broken leg, why can't OP make it through some studying time with a case of the sniffles? Thats just kind of medicine though. Reminds me of this time I was in the OR, and and am eyelash managed to creep under my contact lens.

Me, trying my best to keep my eyes open as the eyelash scrapes between my lens and cornea, still holding retractors: "Argh..."
Surgeon: "Something wrong?"
Me: "I've got an eyelash in my eye."
Surgeon: "Mike (scrub tech), how many tours did you do in Iraq and Afghanistan?"
Tech: "Four, sir."
Surgeon: "In all that time, did a soldier ever dare complain about something as pathetic as an eyelash in their eye?"
Tech: "No sir."
Everyone: *laughs*

Scraped up my eye pretty good (looked like I had pinkeye the next day lol), but I learned minor complaints really aren't well received in medicine, so I try to keep my mouth shut unless I'm bleeding out.

 

[Dare2Dream]

This is kind of in line with my point- if a SEAL can make it through training with a broken leg, why can't OP make it through some studying time with a case of the sniffles? Thats just kind of medicine though. Reminds me of this time I was in the OR, and and am eyelash managed to creep under my contact lens.

Me, trying my best to keep my eyes open as the eyelash scrapes between my lens and cornea, still holding retractors: "Argh..."
Surgeon: "Something wrong?"
Me: "I've got an eyelash in my eye."
Surgeon: "Mike (scrub tech), how many tours did you do in Iraq and Afghanistan?"
Tech: "Four, sir."
Surgeon: "In all that time, did a soldier ever dare complain about something as pathetic as an eyelash in their eye?"
Tech: "No sir."
Everyone: *laughs*

Scraped up my eye pretty good (looked like I had pinkeye the next day lol), but I learned minor complaints really aren't well received in medicine, so I try to keep my mouth shut unless I'm bleeding out.

Your comparison is apt. Perhaps it is also not coincidental that the high stress, both the military and in medicine, correlates with significantly higher suicide rates in both fields.

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

It isn't that the doctor's health doesn't matter, it's that you're going to be sick, and when you are, sometimes you've just kind of got to suck it up. Mono lasts for weeks, but yet you don't see people failing out of school left and right when they get it- it is largely a tiring inconvenience. I guess my point is that your mono sounds like more of an excuse than a reason. And I'm not trying to be brutal here, but that's probably how it looks to administration as well, which is why I was laying it out this way. In understanding why you're being dismissed, it helps to formulate any final appeals you might have. What can you say to convince them or myself that you were, in fact, deathly ill with mono, and furthermore ended up getting the flu so bad it was impossible for you to function? You have an established pattern of failure twice over that you do not own (you make it sound as if you are laying the blame on circumstances outside of your control until the very end) and furthermore it sound like you handled poorly on an emotional level. I'd probably give you a final chance, but I also would not be surprised when the same thing happened again, because that tends to be the way these things go. Perhaps, given what they know of you, they're just not willing to give you your third strike. Good luck, in any case. People have come back from worse.

I agree with this 100%. The fact that the school allowed you to re-mediate is a form of accommodation. I don't understand how others are even encouraging an appeal when the OP signed a remediation contract with admin that ended up falling through. I don't think the school will allow for a withdrawal when the student was a re-mediate. My school has the exact same policy. It's not something that's harsh or mean. It shouldn't take 3 years to go through OMS-I. They can't just keep giving you more chances when you've shown that you are not performing at the set standards.

 

[zero0]

Also, wanted to mention - I agree with the DO infrastructure part. I feel like there is absolutely no-one to hold administration accountable and they can just make up rules as they go.

Well they do own the place, and, from what I understand, COCA's oversight when it comes to issues like this is loose at best. They'll step in if the fail rates for COMLEX or something get too high, but otherwise they mostly don't care. All things considered though, the school had valid reasons for wanting to let you go. You were given multiple chances to redeem yourself and didn't. I know you got sick a few times but that's not much of an excuse. Personally, I suffer from chronic pain issues associated with my jaw that seem to be exacerbated by stress, so it's been a fun first year. It affects my neck and ability to concentrate. Does it affect my ability to focus some nights? You betcha. I just push through though. It's something you kinda need to have inside you to get through all this that doesn't seem to get emphasized much on these forums. This is a field where a lot of the time you just kinda have to suck it up.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I agree with this 100%. The fact that the school allowed you to re-mediate is a form of accommodation. I don't understand how others are even encouraging an appeal when the OP signed a remediation contract with admin that ended up falling through. I don't think the school will allow for a withdrawal when the student was a re-mediate. My school has the exact same policy. It's not something that's harsh or mean. It shouldn't take 3 years to go through OMS-I. They can't just keep giving you more chances when you've shown that you are not performing at the set standards.

I know someone that took him 3 years to get through M1. I would trust him more with my life than some of the 270s I know. He persevered where I know many would crumble.

Some people are tested in ways that if they overcome become great physicians.

 

[NP 2 DPM]

I'm sorry to hear your situation, OP. Best of luck in your program and hope you remain in it. We definitely need more physicians !

 

[hallowmann]

Don't agree. He played by the rules of the game. Remediated classes as the school allows. Asked for help and never received any from the school. They didn't accommodate his illness. Improvement on grades gets no consideration The school then dismisses with incorrect information. These are all signs that the school is a disaster and doesn't want to support sick students because it's inconvenient.

I don't disagree that the school seems disorganized at best. I just don't know if objectively many schools would have acted differently.

Very thoughtful reply. I genuinely appreciate your response. Does the fact that I brought my grades up from the 50's/60's to the 80's/90's have any impact on my case, do you think?

Additionally, I worry that if dismissed, I wouldn't be able to get into any professional school in the future. I plan on inquiring about withdrawing tomorrow at my meeting with the dean, if they are reticent to accept my second appeal.

It might, but unfortunately how much or how little they consider it is at the whim of their promotion and graduation committee.

Your best bet is really to appeal again if possible. If that doesn't work, getting a withdrawal would give you the best options.

I don't think that even dismissal completely kills your chances of getting into a professional school in the future, and it might not even kill your chances of getting into medical school. The American education system actually offers a good amount of second chances for those who can afford to reinvent themselves. You would likely have to put some time between this dismissal and your next application (at least a year, but maybe even 2-4). You'll need to do something that demonstrates that you understood your deficiencies while in school, took responsibility for them, and that you won't have a problem in the future, even if you do get sick.

Honestly, I'd also consider other professional programs as well, because that might be an easier/less time consuming process. If you're interested in surgery, Pod might be an option, interested in MSK, PT might be an option, etc. There's a lot of different ways that people recover from a med school dismissal and become perfectly happy. You just have to find something you like.

 

[sunealoneal]

This is kind of in line with my point- if a SEAL can make it through training with a broken leg, why can't OP make it through some studying time with a case of the sniffles? Thats just kind of medicine though. Reminds me of this time I was in the OR, and and am eyelash managed to creep under my contact lens.

Me, trying my best to keep my eyes open as the eyelash scrapes between my lens and cornea, still holding retractors: "Argh..."
Surgeon: "Something wrong?"
Me: "I've got an eyelash in my eye."
Surgeon: "Mike (scrub tech), how many tours did you do in Iraq and Afghanistan?"
Tech: "Four, sir."
Surgeon: "In all that time, did a soldier ever dare complain about something as pathetic as an eyelash in their eye?"
Tech: "No sir."
Everyone: *laughs*

Scraped up my eye pretty good (looked like I had pinkeye the next day lol), but I learned minor complaints really aren't well received in medicine, so I try to keep my mouth shut unless I'm bleeding out.

Lol I'm annoyed by everyone in that room and I don't even know them. Glad I'm not interested in surgery (or the military)! Or contacts. People always think I'm smoking marijuana when I wear contacts.

 

[Daiichi]

I hate to pile on because I can only imagine how much it sucks to come here and seek advice for something as terrible as a school dismissal and what that can mean for your future, but I can kind of see where your school is coming from.

I definitely agree that mono sucks, and it's a valid reason for doing poorly in school IMO. Some people are giving you crap for that, but I remember having mono a few years ago and I found it nearly impossible to go to work because my head was in such a fog that I couldn't concentrate and my clients would often start asking me to repeat things because I would randomly stop making total sense. It was awful and lasted for a few weeks, so I can definitely see that screwing up intensive studies.

That said, they allowed you to remediate and it sounds like you failed some classes again, which as you mentioned is allowable, but does not reflect well for you given the circumstances. You then got sick again, which I understand is beyond your control, and went on to fail five classes.

Look at it from the school's perspective:

1) You had what sounds like a mediocre GPA and MCAT, but they took a gamble on you to perform.
2) You got sick and had to repeat a year. You displayed what your school considers unstable behavior over it and required counseling and a strong academic performance for you to continue.
3) You get sick again with a stomach bug and go on to fail five classes. This is after they gave you a chance to remediate and promised to do well in the future.

Now the school has to consider all of the factors - you were a risk coming in due to your academic performance, you got sick and failed, promised to do better, and then got sick again and failed catastrophically. At some point both you and the school need to cut their losses and move on. You cannot simply keep repeating classes each time you fail until you realize you're 300k in debt and cannot pass the boards required to become a doctor. That's not fair for anyone. Your life would be in financial ruins at that point and you wouldn't recover for a long time.

I think your best bet is to make an earnest attempt at speaking with the decision makers involved and lay out a very specific plan of how you can rectify this, and plead for one last opportunity. That's all you can really do at this point.

I wish you luck because I cannot imagine how awful it must feel to have worked so hard to come this far, only to have it taken away.

 

[xffan624]

Lol I'm annoyed by everyone in that room and I don't even know them. Glad I'm not interested in surgery (or the military)! Or contacts. People always think I'm smoking marijuana when I wear contacts.

For military folks it's pretty much BS. #1 you don't wear contacts in Iraq or Afghanistan due to the dust problems. Every soldier that needs them gets issued BCG's (called birth control glasses due to how ugly they are). #2 even with that, I knew a soldier who had to evacuate to base hospital in theater when he had a corneal abrasion due to dust in contacts (he didn't follow regs).

Military folks are people too and we have medical problems just like everyone else (ok maybe a bit less due to the mandatory pt, weight control, and keeping out the previously sick folks. but it still happens). I knew multiple people who had to go back to the states during the one year deployment due to medical issues that couldn't be managed in Iraq. That said, the soldiers that milked their illnesses were definitely not looked upon kindly.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

OP, I am on the borderline about whether you would need to ask a lawyer about this (cause I don't think that will turn out well, the schools usually win, and you will definitely be done with medical school forever then). But IMO your school is giving you typical treatment with this: bungling response, glaring omissions of grade improvement, making decisions based on incomplete or even false information but then claiming that's what they would have done anyway. I think they just want to get rid of the problem student at this point and have decided you are not likely to complete anyway.

That is irritating to me, because its the height of hypocrisy from your school as I am sure they claim values like compassion, service, humanism or some other variant as 'core values', which they completely ignore at their convenience. They have no interest in trying to extend any of those values to how they are treating you at this time. Thats wrong, but it's life, and at some point you have to deal with the hand your dealt.

So in that vein you have to take some responsibility for both your health and how you act when your sick. You don't exactly exude perseverance or persistence at all when you talk about mono and the flu knocking you out for month(s?). That doesn't happen to normal people and I think its why many people are giving you trouble about this. You seem like you might have more health issues than whats at the surface, or you are doing something lifestyle wise that is making you very susceptible. This has to be addressed, no matter whether you come back to this school or not.

If I am a dean I have to know that: A. You are doing everything you can to prevent health problems (lifestyle changes etc), and B. That you know how to quickly identify and minimize their effect when they occur. This also extends to attitude, you have to deal with your emotions, whether that means watching youtube videos on stoicism, praying, meditating, whatever. You just have to find a way to keep them in check, and not let them influence you into making bad decisions.

That being said I would think that the best outcome you can hope for is probably the one you partially have. Being dismissed for health and academic issues is something that you can show improvement on (at least the academics). There are several threads of people who where dismissed from medical school and were able to get back in 2-3 years later. If it was me, I would try to get the letter to only talk about academic things (as its easier and more quantifiable to fix than health), and then I would do a post bacc or whatever to show I had shored up my weakness. Also improve the MCAT as well, take away all the evidence they used against you this time and make it into strengths. I believe that is your best hope beyond appeal, which I think you will lose right now. I hope this all works out and this can become another feel good thread for SDN in a couple years.

 

[hello1234!]

*** I haven't read this whole thread , it's kind of long ***

But I had mono in high school, and I remember not being able to function well for over 3 months. I also felt like people didn't understand how sick I was bc I looked relatively normal. It would be extremely difficult to have mono in med school.

 

[Goro]

OP, I am on the borderline about whether you would need to ask a lawyer about this (cause I don't think that will turn out well, the schools usually win, and you will definitely be done with medical school forever then). But IMO your school is giving you typical treatment with this: bungling response, glaring omissions of grade improvement, making decisions based on incomplete or even false information but then claiming that's what they would have done anyway. I think they just want to get rid of the problem student at this point and have decided you are not likely to complete anyway.

Before people start mentioning lawyers, the OP needs to determine if the school followed all protocols in the Student Handbook on "things that lead to dismissal".

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Agreed, by the time you get to lawyers, your almost always gonna lose. Well unless its title IX or sexual misconduct on the schools part, those are the only ones I see students winning a decent amount.

 

[nintendofriendo]

The school citing your undergrad GPA and MCAT just shows that admissions took a chance on you despite your poor academic performance. They must have seen something in you and believed you could succeed.

You should have been grateful for the opportunity and worked extra hard, but instead it seems you're playing the victim here and blaming your school for your failure. I know this must be very hard for you, but the school is not in the wrong here. It may be time to cut your losses and move on.


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