In 2011 and 2012, St. George's University placed more doctors into 1st Year

[ManaPool]

"In 2011 and 2012, St. George's University placed more doctors into first-year US residency positions than any medical school in the world."

http://www.sgu.edu/alumni/student-profile-alumni-residency-appointments.html#residency?&NS_cid=965

Thoughts?

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[Stellar Clouds]

2 things pop into my head:

1. What percentage of their students match? Who cares about the absolute number if it is a small percentage overall.
2. Placing into first year doesn't mean there is a second year (i.e. matching a prelim year isn't very useful if you don't have the rest of residency training)

 

[ManaPool]

1) There is about 500-700 people starting for the two starting terms of a year, so combine that and divide the list total by the total number. (also, from what someone told me >20% of that number are non-US citizens from Trinidad and other countries)

2) It lists PGY 1-8

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Is this a place you are considering? Is that why you have asked?

 

[IslandStyle808]

1) There is about 500-700 people starting for the two starting terms of a year, so combine that and divide the list total by the total number. (also, from what someone told me >20% of that number are non-US citizens from Trinidad and other countries)

2) It lists PGY 1-8

Sorry but I want to chime in on this. This does not really explain how many graduate and how many match really.
1) You don't know how many dropped out (various reasons family, bad scores, etc.)
2) You don't know how many people did not match (hence the need for a percentage)
3) I have no idea how the PGY 3-8 works? (so these are students who graduated from SGU 3-8 years ago and finally matched!?)

The only competitive residency matching I see is radiology and that is about it. People may still think it is a good option now but when those new MD/DO schools open up 2013-2014 it won't be (the pain will be felt around 2020 for IMGs).

 

[Law2Doc]

2 things pop into my head:

1. What percentage of their students match? Who cares about the absolute number if it is a small percentage overall.
2. Placing into first year doesn't mean there is a second year (i.e. matching a prelim year isn't very useful if you don't have the rest of residency training)

Agree. (1) If I have a combined senior class (winter and spring starts) of 700 (ignoring the hundreds of others who don't make it that far) and only 300 match into first year positions, while the largest US school has, say, 250 people and 245 match, is having the most first year matches really good or really crappy? (2) and what if 50 of those first year spots are dead end prelim surgery spots? (3) and why would you ignore the attrition rate in getting to that senior class figure?

Truth of the matter is that statements like the one the OP lists highlight the games these places play. They do a Volume business, take a lot of money from people who never really had a chance, and then point to certain numbers in a vacuum as evidence of success. You have to be a very critical reader of promotional materials, there is a lot of puffery out there.

 

[tallman24]

Thats very true. I go to st georges and we all kind of got a laugh out of this. We do start off with a lot of kids (500-700) 600 in my class, but we also lose a lot. I know from our first and second term we have lost about 140 kids roughly (im a ms2 now). We all worry about the match

 

[tallman24]

But the figure i heard is a little over 3/4 match their first year. Not a great number but the people that do make it through the school overall have a very good chance.

 

[Law2Doc]

But the figure i heard is a little over 3/4 match their first year. Not a great number but the people that do make it through the school overall have a very good chance.

Well even if it's 75% of the 60% of the individuals who make it to fourth year, that's only a 45% rate. Thats a bad number. It really is a hail Mary pass we are talking about. That's a far cry from the above 90% rate you get at US schools. And you have to look on the matches themselves too -- eg a dead end surgery prelim isn't equivalent to a categorical match, probably shouldn't be counted at all since those same people are going to be back in the match again next year. And bear in mind that we are talking about one of the most successful of the offshore schools -- most don't even provide odds this good.

 

[tallman24]

Agreed it i a hail marry. And it is known as a hail marry.

 

[Stat]

How about some data to make this thread real? Yes, I am a proud grad of SGU and am also an advisor to students there and also an Associate Dean of Students. I am an emergency physician in Delaware.

SGUSOM is not "one of those schools." I and 10,000 others are physicians because we attended SGU when, to be honest, US schools wouldn't have us.

2011: eligible grads (passed Steps) 91% got a residency. That # increased to 97% in 2012. Why didn't they get it the first year out? A # of reasons- might have "stretched" for a specialty beyond their reach, poor application process or ranking, maybe passed CK or CS late in interviewing season & was unable to secure enough interview spots due to a poor Step1, etc. but were still eligible by our definition.

2012: 91% again of those eligible, got a residency.

In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms. We advise students who are struggling to withdraw before spending more $$ and years of their lives if it appears they won't make it. One of the most difficult things I do is speak with students with low GPA's and a failure on Step 1, and sometimes a 2nd Step 1 failure, and tell them they won't make it. We discuss other healthcare professional options.

2011 SGU Step 1 pass rate first time takers was 95% (US / Canadian med school student pass rate was 94%). We are finishing the data collection on 2012 Step 1 pass rate & will post as soon as available- waiting on a few December score verifications- but an early snoop shows it is higher still.

I hope this data helps this important conversation. Not all schools are the same by any means. It is not easy getting a US residency- but our grads have been successful in doing so. See what real data any other schools you are considering applying to are willing to share.
All the best-

 

[eject]

How about some data to make this thread real? Yes, I am a proud grad of SGU and am also an advisor to students there and also an Associate Dean of Students. I am an emergency physician in Delaware.

SGUSOM is not "one of those schools." I and 10,000 others are physicians because we attended SGU when, to be honest, US schools wouldn't have us.

2011: eligible grads (passed Steps) 91% got a residency. That # increased to 97% in 2012. Why didn't they get it the first year out? A # of reasons- might have "stretched" for a specialty beyond their reach, poor application process or ranking, maybe passed CK or CS late in interviewing season & was unable to secure enough interview spots due to a poor Step1, etc. but were still eligible by our definition.

2012: 91% again of those eligible, got a residency.

In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms. We advise students who are struggling to withdraw before spending more $$ and years of their lives if it appears they won't make it. One of the most difficult things I do is speak with students with low GPA's and a failure on Step 1, and sometimes a 2nd Step 1 failure, and tell them they won't make it. We discuss other healthcare professional options.

2011 SGU Step 1 pass rate first time takers was 95% (US / Canadian med school student pass rate was 94%). We are finishing the data collection on 2012 Step 1 pass rate & will post as soon as available- waiting on a few December score verifications- but an early snoop shows it is higher still.

I hope this data helps this important conversation. Not all schools are the same by any means. It is not easy getting a US residency- but our grads have been successful in doing so. See what real data any other schools you are considering applying to are willing to share.
All the best-

You rightly highlight the word "eligible." What percentage of graduating students from SGU are eligible? What percentage of matriculating students end up "eligible" after 4 years?

 

[Stellar Clouds]

Not to mention skipping over matching prelim vs categorical.

 

[link2swim06]

How about some data to make this thread real? Yes, I am a proud grad of SGU and am also an advisor to students there and also an Associate Dean of Students. I am an emergency physician in Delaware.

SGUSOM is not "one of those schools." I and 10,000 others are physicians because we attended SGU when, to be honest, US schools wouldn't have us.

2011: eligible grads (passed Steps) 91% got a residency. That # increased to 97% in 2012. Why didn't they get it the first year out? A # of reasons- might have "stretched" for a specialty beyond their reach, poor application process or ranking, maybe passed CK or CS late in interviewing season & was unable to secure enough interview spots due to a poor Step1, etc. but were still eligible by our definition.

2012: 91% again of those eligible, got a residency.

In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms. We advise students who are struggling to withdraw before spending more $$ and years of their lives if it appears they won't make it. One of the most difficult things I do is speak with students with low GPA's and a failure on Step 1, and sometimes a 2nd Step 1 failure, and tell them they won't make it. We discuss other healthcare professional options.

2011 SGU Step 1 pass rate first time takers was 95% (US / Canadian med school student pass rate was 94%). We are finishing the data collection on 2012 Step 1 pass rate & will post as soon as available- waiting on a few December score verifications- but an early snoop shows it is higher still.

I hope this data helps this important conversation. Not all schools are the same by any means. It is not easy getting a US residency- but our grads have been successful in doing so. See what real data any other schools you are considering applying to are willing to share.
All the best-

And in 2017-2018 when the number of residencies approx. equals the number of US grads what do you think you match rate wil be?

It is going to be TERRIBLE.

You will be lucky to match 20% of your grads. The days of the Caribbean schools being viable was in the 1990s and 2000s. Those days are coming to a end very quickly.

 

[Blad3 Runner]

Interestingly, they matched someone to radiology at the University of Toronto. That's probably the most prestigious school in the entire country if you're Canadian. A lot of people would sell a kidney just to have a shot at interviewing there.

 

[VisionaryTics]

Agreed it i a hail marry. And it is known as a hail marry.

No, it isn't.

 

[kindasorta]

No, it isn't.

Agreed. It's heil mairy.

 

[link2swim06]

Interestingly, they matched someone to radiology at the University of Toronto. That's probably the most prestigious school in the entire country if you're Canadian. A lot of people would sell a kidney just to have a shot at interviewing there.

Connections, connections, connections.

They are plenty of people that are where they are only because of who they know/knew. I.E. paris hilton, george w. bush, etc.

 

[Textbookversion]

I have a hard time believing SGU beat that big DO school LECOM or w/e. They have a lot of students.

 

[IlDestriero]

How about some data to make this thread real?

In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms.

I think this is a pretty shocking statistic.
Look right and left at orientation, only one of you will be here to try to pass the USMLE let alone match.
Wow.
Am I reading that right? >2/3 drop out/failure rate before step 1?
What's the drop out rate in the us? 1-2%? We lost one in my class to cheating, another quit, one repeated 1st year (graduated), and one left after 3rd year to pursue a business opportunity. Nobody failed out.
Wow. And that's at the best school in the Caribbean.
Hail Mary is right. It's a couple hundred thousand dollar bet with the odds strongly favoring the house.

 

[FutureInternist]

Two students that rotated w/ me while I was a student were from Caribbean & they told me that they are not even allowed to take the Step unless they do really well on the practice USMLE that everyone takes
So the ones taking the exam are already at the top of their class & hence they have stellar Board pass rates

 

[113]

Agreed. It's heil mairy.

Pretty sure it's Hull Murry.
46% of the time, I'm always right.

 

[rocketbooster]

How about some data to make this thread real? Yes, I am a proud grad of SGU and am also an advisor to students there and also an Associate Dean of Students. I am an emergency physician in Delaware.

SGUSOM is not "one of those schools." I and 10,000 others are physicians because we attended SGU when, to be honest, US schools wouldn't have us.

2011: eligible grads (passed Steps) 91% got a residency. That # increased to 97% in 2012. Why didn't they get it the first year out? A # of reasons- might have "stretched" for a specialty beyond their reach, poor application process or ranking, maybe passed CK or CS late in interviewing season & was unable to secure enough interview spots due to a poor Step1, etc. but were still eligible by our definition.

2012: 91% again of those eligible, got a residency.

In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms. We advise students who are struggling to withdraw before spending more $$ and years of their lives if it appears they won't make it. One of the most difficult things I do is speak with students with low GPA's and a failure on Step 1, and sometimes a 2nd Step 1 failure, and tell them they won't make it. We discuss other healthcare professional options.

2011 SGU Step 1 pass rate first time takers was 95% (US / Canadian med school student pass rate was 94%). We are finishing the data collection on 2012 Step 1 pass rate & will post as soon as available- waiting on a few December score verifications- but an early snoop shows it is higher still.

I hope this data helps this important conversation. Not all schools are the same by any means. It is not easy getting a US residency- but our grads have been successful in doing so. See what real data any other schools you are considering applying to are willing to share.
All the best-

As ppl already pointed out, you're not defining "eligible." You can only compare your pass rate to ours if you were to include only current M2s who didnt repeat a year. I know for a fact that SGU students are not allowed to take Step 1 until they get a certain score on the practice test.

My friend goes to SGU now and he didn't take Step 1 until half way through his 3rd year because he said SGU didn't prepare him well enough to take it at the end of 2nd year like all US med students do.

Your "eligible" student group is comprised of many students from different years of med school. I'm sure it ranges from ppl who have been there 2 to 4 years. And I'm sure many of them longer than 2 years. 95%+ of US med students take Step 1 after 2 years of med school. The remaining 5% are probably ppl who repeated a year or were not rdy to pass. That number for SGU is probably 50%.

Nice attempt trying to twist the numbers like all Carribean schools do. Carib schools are known to have a 50% attrition rate. US MD is about 5% and DO 10%.

 

[CodeBlu]

Two students that rotated w/ me while I was a student were from Caribbean & they told me that they are not even allowed to take the Step unless they do really well on the practice USMLE that everyone takes
So the ones taking the exam are already at the top of their class & hence they have stellar Board pass rates

This. It skews their statistics. I have a few friends that started their schooling in January. So that gave them something like 6 months to study and crush Step 1. Most US MD students get 2 months at most for dedicated study time to Step 1. And we still manage to rock it...

Not hating on Carib grads. To be honest, some of the attitudes towards Carib grads that I've encountered in med school from my colleagues is annoying.

"Well, if they couldn't hack it here... they should have never gone to med school."

That kinda stuff irritates me.

 

[Law2Doc]

...

Nice attempt trying to twist the numbers like all Carribean schools do. Carib schools are known to have a 50% attrition rate. US MD is about 5% and DO 10%.

well, you previously said 2/3 people were victims of attrition after 10% "left". Sounds like over 70% attrition rate. That makes the 97% match figure pretty dubious because it's really 97% of the 30ish percent that are still there. And again the folks who end up in dead end one year prelim jobs who will need to apply for the match again probably shouldn't be counted. Again, for the very small handful who make it through and into residencies, kudos. But let's not pretend this is a high yield path. It's a very low yield gamble for people otherwise out of options who think they can turn things around and be one of this 30ish percent. A lottery ticket mentality.

 

[tallman24]

Ok sorry, I meant to elaborate on this but I was heading the grocery store to get some food. YES to some it is a hail marry. It is their last shot at becoming a doctor. That being said... we do have a lot of people that come that just cannot make it. I don't know if they think it will be easy or what but, yes, we do lose a lot of each class either via dropping out or staying back a term. It sucks but some people just shouldn't even be here. However, I do know that the people who work hard, study every day and take it all seriously do well here. They do well on their step ones and the majority of them match. The first two years are still a weeding process hence why there are such large class sizes.
Law2doc said it best, it is not a high yield path to becoming a doctor, but it is a path nonetheless.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Grammar Nazi here: (can't help myself)

It's not "hail marry".

It's "Hail Mary" from the Catholic prayer asking for assistance from the Virgin Mary. It is also referenced in football as a long pass which has little chance of succeeding.

 

[tallman24]

My bad

 

[CodeBlu]

Grammar Nazi here: (can't help myself)

It's not "hail marry".

It's "Hail Mary" from the Catholic prayer asking for assistance from the Virgin Mary. It is also referenced in football as a long pass which has little chance of succeeding.

END THE FASCIST REGIME!!!!!!!

Hahaha. I bet you're like me and you cringe when someone says something like this...

"Yeah, I went over their and you're girlfriend wasn't they're..."

 

[LoveMyRam]

Ok sorry, I meant to elaborate on this but I was heading the grocery store to get some food. YES to some it is a hail marry. It is their last shot at becoming a doctor. That being said... we do have a lot of people that come that just cannot make it. I don't know if they think it will be easy or what but, yes, we do lose a lot of each class either via dropping out or staying back a term. It sucks but some people just shouldn't even be here. However, I do know that the people who work hard, study every day and take it all seriously do well here. They do well on their step ones and the majority of them match. The first two years are still a weeding process hence why there are such large class sizes.
Law2doc said it best, it is not a high yield path to becoming a doctor, but it is a path nonetheless.

Bro, Im sorry your getting bashed by all the US students and grads here, as is typical since we all think we know everything (and it is great to see that thru it all u have are optimistic and have a great attitude about ur education). While most of the stats here are true (some of them were just pulled straight out of their ass), and the odds are stacked against you- you already seemed to have come to terms with it. I urge you to keep working hard, like you sound you have been. You have much more experience and understanding of IMG's and matching than most of us here, so take what is said with a grain of salt.
I must say most people here sound bitter just because of the existence of students working their butt off over seas and simply aiming for any type of residency they can get into and are thankful for it.
I'm sure if you keep working hard, like you sound you've been doing, you will be very successful in the end. I'm at a US school and I work hard, but I love seeing people like you who are confident and know that by the same hard work, they will reap their benefits as well. Best of luck!

 

[Stat]

Yes, you are misunderstanding the numbers I posted, so maybe I could be clearer. I stated "In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms." So about 10% of the starting class will "leave" before third year- Of those 10%, some transfer into US schools, 2/3rd of the 10% are dismissed or withdraw on their own. We do not lose 2/3rds of our students- that would not be a school anyone would want to go to! In addition, some students decide to "decelerate" by taking fewer classes in a term and doing it over 2 terms instead of 1 if they are having difficulty, say in Pathology. That would also move a student from one class to the class behind.

As to the "eligible" point- SGUSOM is an international university training physicians, veterinarians, Public Health and other professionals for careers throughout the world. In the medical school, a significant number of students do not plan on training in the US, so they do not take the USMLE exams as they are not needed in their home country and It would be unfair to count them in the denominator for those that attain a US residency as they didn't even apply, yet they are a graduate. Therefore they are "ineligible" for US residency. Others may graduate and want a US residency, but either took a USMLE exam late so could not be in the NRMP (the match) or they failed the CS or CK exam and so are ineligible for the match. For those who are US med students, keep in mind that foreign med students are at a distinct disadvantage in that they have to have passed the CK and CS BEFORE the ROL certification deadline (late February). US medical school students do not- they can take the Step 2 exams AFTER the match, though many will take it before to improve their chances of getting their residency.

Feel free to go to the SGU website where the residency programs for the last 5 years of graduates are listed. Many competitive programs are listed.

Hope this clarifies it!

 

[rocketbooster]

well, you previously said 2/3 people were victims of attrition after 10% "left". Sounds like over 70% attrition rate. That makes the 97% match figure pretty dubious because it's really 97% of the 30ish percent that are still there. And again the folks who end up in dead end one year prelim jobs who will need to apply for the match again probably shouldn't be counted. Again, for the very small handful who make it through and into residencies, kudos. But let's not pretend this is a high yield path. It's a very low yield gamble for people otherwise out of options who think they can turn things around and be one of this 30ish percent. A lottery ticket mentality.

The 50-70% attrition rate or whatever the exact number is still leaves 30-50% success rate. Those are actually not bad odds if you are honest with yourself on why you ended up at the Caribbean. If it were me, I knew it was because I jacked around in college and didn't study for classes and the MCAT. If I actually put effort in, I could easily be in that 30-50% success rate.

Although to be honest, I would just keep trying to get into a US MD school because a lot of your best options are basically cut out by going to a Caribbean school. You basically have zero chance at any competitive residency. If I were just interested in primary care without a doubt, though, then I probably wouldn't hesitate and go straight to the Caribbean or DO school without wasting more time trying to get into a US MD one. I personally don't get why they chose Caribbean over DO, but whatever. DO basically has the same lack of admission standards but a much higher student success rate. You can argue the best DO schools have higher admission standards than Caribbean, but you can definitely find many DO schools with zero standards as well. I guess those students really just want that MD over DO title.

 

[rocketbooster]

Yes, you are misunderstanding the numbers I posted, so maybe I could be clearer. I stated "In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms." So about 10% of the starting class will "leave" before third year- Of those 10%, some transfer into US schools, 2/3rd of the 10% are dismissed or withdraw on their own. We do not lose 2/3rds of our students- that would not be a school anyone would want to go to! In addition, some students decide to "decelerate" by taking fewer classes in a term and doing it over 2 terms instead of 1 if they are having difficulty, say in Pathology. That would also move a student from one class to the class behind.

As to the "eligible" point- SGUSOM is an international university training physicians, veterinarians, Public Health and other professionals for careers throughout the world. In the medical school, a significant number of students do not plan on training in the US, so they do not take the USMLE exams as they are not needed in their home country and It would be unfair to count them in the denominator for those that attain a US residency as they didn't even apply, yet they are a graduate. Therefore they are "ineligible" for US residency. Others may graduate and want a US residency, but either took a USMLE exam late so could not be in the NRMP (the match) or they failed the CS or CK exam and so are ineligible for the match. For those who are US med students, keep in mind that foreign med students are at a distinct disadvantage in that they have to have passed the CK and CS BEFORE the ROL certification deadline (late February). US medical school students do not- they can take the Step 2 exams AFTER the match, though many will take it before to improve their chances of getting their residency.

Feel free to go to the SGU website where the residency programs for the last 5 years of graduates are listed. Many competitive programs are listed.

Hope this clarifies it!

There's no way SGU has a legitimate 90% of its students who match on time. You need to be more specific still.

What percentage of students in a class actually finish med school in 4 years AND start residency right after they graduate?

What percentage match to a categorical year and not a bs prelim year that just buys them time to apply for the match again the next year? And you cannot readd the ones who eventually match back to their former class success rate.

What percentage of students are actually international students who have no interest in practicing in the US?

It's very obvious that many students are cut out of your stats, which obviously inflates them. You just need to be more specific.

Also, a general statement like yours that I bolded above is a classic example of false advertising. I've seen the SGU match list and there's basically 0 competitive fields on there. Almost all the spots are some form of primary care. General surgery is realistically the most competitive field SGU students can match into. And yes I'm sure you can find one radiology spot out of hundreds and try to say "our students match into radiology as well." That's not the reality that most SGU students face. It's almost impossible to match into a competitive field from SGU or any IMG for that matter. It sucks but that's how it is. That's one of the realities you have to face when you decide to attend a Caribbean school.

 

[link2swim06]

The 50-70% attrition rate or whatever the exact number is still leaves 30-50% success rate. Those are actually not bad odds if you are honest with yourself on why you ended up at the Caribbean. If it were me, I knew it was because I jacked around in college and didn't study for classes and the MCAT. If I actually put effort in, I could easily be in that 30-50% success rate.

Although to be honest, I would just keep trying to get into a US MD school because a lot of your best options are basically cut out by going to a Caribbean school. You basically have zero chance at any competitive residency. If I were just interested in primary care without a doubt, though, then I probably wouldn't hesitate and go straight to the Caribbean or DO school without wasting more time trying to get into a US MD one. I personally don't get why they chose Caribbean over DO, but whatever. DO basically has the same lack of admission standards but a much higher student success rate. You can argue the best DO schools have higher admission standards than Caribbean, but you can definitely find many DO schools with zero standards as well. I guess those students really just want that MD over DO title.

Historically sure.

This conversation is dangerous to ill informed pre-meds because there is no longer going to be surplus of residency spots in the coming years.

Caribbean schools and international grads typically get the remainder of spots US grads didn't fill.

However, for entering classes the US grads = residency spots.


Caribbean is not an option for anyone anymore. Sorry.


Anyone prove me wrong and I will give you a cookie. Mathematically it is impossible.

 

[DoctwoB]

So what is sounds like Stat is trying to say is that 90% eventually graduate SGU (unclear what % in 4 years vs. more), and 90% of graduates who successfully passed step1/2 end up matching. If true, that would be relatively impressive.

The key statistics remaining are thus: (1) what percentage of matches are to categorical vs. prelim programs (2) what percentage of graduates who aim to return to the US count as elligible (e.g. passed both steps prior to application), (3) What % of students repeat a year or more. (4) Is the 90% match success rate including students who failed to match in 1 year but eventually successfully matched?

I'm not asking this to condemn SGU, for many applying there, a 5-6 year MD is a heck of a lot better then the alternative of no MD at all. I'm just skeptical of any self-reported data from med schools (including US ones). Remember when applying to med school and every school had step1 scores that were a SD above the national average? It didn't quite make sense.

I also agree that even if these numbers are true now, they are likely to get less favorable as US MD spots increase. Of course, that means that many who may not have gotten into US MD schools and previously gone to SGU will have the opportunity to study in the US.

 

[projectlogic]

There's no way SGU has a legitimate 90% of its students who match on time. You need to be more specific still.

What percentage of students in a class actually finish med school in 4 years AND start residency right after they graduate?

What percentage match to a categorical year and not a bs prelim year that just buys them time to apply for the match again the next year? And you cannot readd the ones who eventually match back to their former class success rate.

What percentage of students are actually international students who have no interest in practicing in the US?

It's very obvious that many students are cut out of your stats, which obviously inflates them. You just need to be more specific.

Also, a general statement like yours that I bolded above is a classic example of false advertising. I've seen the SGU match list and there's basically 0 competitive fields on there. Almost all the spots are some form of primary care. General surgery is realistically the most competitive field SGU students can match into. And yes I'm sure you can find one radiology spot out of hundreds and try to say "our students match into radiology as well." That's not the reality that most SGU students face. It's almost impossible to match into a competitive field from SGU or any IMG for that matter. It sucks but that's how it is. That's one of the realities you have to face when you decide to attend a Caribbean school.

Looks like the on-time completion rate is 82%.

http://www.sgu.edu/school-of-medicine/sgu-medical-sciences-program.html

Scroll all the way to the bottom.

 

[Law2Doc]

Yes, you are misunderstanding the numbers I posted, so maybe I could be clearer. I stated "In past 6 years, 10% of students left. 12% transferred in to US schools. Of the remainder, 2/3rds were dismissed or withdrew within 2 terms." So about 10% of the starting class will "leave" before third year- Of those 10%, some transfer into US schools, 2/3rd of the 10% are dismissed or withdraw on their own. We do not lose 2/3rds of our students- that would not be a school anyone would want to go to! In addition, some students decide to "decelerate" by taking fewer classes in a term and doing it over 2 terms instead of 1 if they are having difficulty, say in Pathology. That would also move a student from one class to the class behind.

As to the "eligible" point- SGUSOM is an international university training physicians, veterinarians, Public Health and other professionals for careers throughout the world. In the medical school, a significant number of students do not plan on training in the US, so they do not take the USMLE exams as they are not needed in their home country and It would be unfair to count them in the denominator for those that attain a US residency as they didn't even apply, yet they are a graduate. Therefore they are "ineligible" for US residency. Others may graduate and want a US residency, but either took a USMLE exam late so could not be in the NRMP (the match) or they failed the CS or CK exam and so are ineligible for the match. For those who are US med students, keep in mind that foreign med students are at a distinct disadvantage in that they have to have passed the CK and CS BEFORE the ROL certification deadline (late February). US medical school students do not- they can take the Step 2 exams AFTER the match, though many will take it before to improve their chances of getting their residency.

Feel free to go to the SGU website where the residency programs for the last 5 years of graduates are listed. Many competitive programs are listed.

Hope this clarifies it!

I know a number of people who graduated from SGU and they will be the first to tell you the attrition rate is much higher than 10%, and that the school really wouldn't have enough slots for third year rotations if that were the case. It's not the killing fields that some offshore schools are, but it's the minority that end up successfully matched in four years, school propaganda notwithstanding. They know the odds were stacked against them, and don't kid people by suggesting that anyone who buckles down and studies hard will be a success story. I have high respect for them precisely because it's simply not true that 90%, or even most of the people who follow the path they took get similar results.

 

[Gut Shot]

Looks like the on-time completion rate is 82%.

http://www.sgu.edu/school-of-medicine/sgu-medical-sciences-program.html

Scroll all the way to the bottom.

No, 82% of the students who finished in 2011-2012 did so on time (<4.5 years).

It says nothing of the overall completion rate.

 

[Textbookversion]

You guys realize the school can just lie right?

I wouldn't trust any numbers on their website.

Legitimate, US law schools (we're talking TOP law schools here) are very, very dishonest about their employment numbers. Some students at a lower tier law school sued the school, and the judges decision was literally, "these employment numbers are ridiculous, of course they are lying, you would be a fool to rely on them so it's your fault for believing them."

Schools can absolutely lie, and they do so.

 

[Law2Doc]

You guys realize the school can just lie right?

I wouldn't trust any numbers on their website.

Legitimate, US law schools (we're talking TOP law schools here) are very, very dishonest about their employment numbers. Some students at a lower tier law school sued the school, and the judges decision was literally, "these employment numbers are ridiculous, of course they are lying, you would be a fool to rely on them so it's your fault for believing them."

Schools can absolutely lie, and they do so.

Also bear in mind that US fraud and false advertising laws have limited jurisdiction over a school predominantly located in the Caribbean. Offshore programs are freer to exaggerate and massage the numbers than their US counterparts without risk of repercussion. I'd consider these schools websites to be more of an advertising pitch that an audited statement of fact.

 

[Textbookversion]

Also bear in mind that US fraud and false advertising laws have limited jurisdiction over a school predominantly located in the Caribbean. Offshore programs are freer to exaggerate and massage the numbers than their US counterparts without risk of repercussion. I'd consider these schools websites to be more of an advertising pitch that an audited statement of fact.

Good point about the offshore deal. They can basically act with impunity. The takeaway from the Cooley case I had was:

1) graduate schools aren't covered by consumer protection statutes
2) it isn't fraud if you should have known the school was lying ("the plaintiffs unreasonably relied on the representations of the defendant" is the actual money quote)

 

[IlDestriero]

No, 82% of the students who finished in 2011-2012 did so on time (<4.5 years).

It says nothing of the overall completion rate.

Exactly, if you believe the numbers, 82% of those still in school to graduate may finish in 4.5 years, but there's absolutely no info on the % of students starting who actually graduate at all. They don't want you to know that.

 

[projectlogic]

No, 82% of the students who finished in 2011-2012 did so on time (<4.5 years).

It says nothing of the overall completion rate.

True.

 

[rocketbooster]

FA 2012 has some info about Step 1 stats for 2010:
Allo pass rate: 90%
DO pass rate: 89%
IMG pass rate: 61%

The IMG rate is probably mostly Caribbean kids bc most from other countries don't take the Step tests. They graduate from their country's med school and directly apply for the match. At least none of the non Carib IMGs I know took them.

Even though SGU is the best Carib school, I doubt it's 30% higher than the avg IMG pass rate. Btw 61% was broken down into 70% pass for first time test takers and 33% pass for repeaters. They have those numbers for allo and DO too and the total student numbers but too mpuch to type out.

 

[Law2Doc]

FA 2012 has some info about Step 1 stats for 2010:
Allo pass rate: 90%
DO pass rate: 89%
IMG pass rate: 61%

The IMG rate is probably mostly Caribbean kids bc most from other countries don't take the Step tests. They graduate from their country's med school and directly apply for the match. At least none of the non Carib IMGs I know took them.

Even though SGU is the best Carib school, I doubt it's 30% higher than the avg IMG pass rate. Btw 61% was broken down into 70% pass for first time test takers and 33% pass for repeaters. They have those numbers for allo and DO too and the total student numbers but too mpuch to type out.

Um, you still need to take the steps to match even from non-Caribbean countries. All the people you know would have had to take them too. How else will they ever be licensed? There is no international reciprocity.

 

[projectlogic]

FA 2012 has some info about Step 1 stats for 2010:
Allo pass rate: 90%
DO pass rate: 89%
IMG pass rate: 61%

The IMG rate is probably mostly Caribbean kids bc most from other countries don't take the Step tests. They graduate from their country's med school and directly apply for the match. At least none of the non Carib IMGs I know took them.

Even though SGU is the best Carib school, I doubt it's 30% higher than the avg IMG pass rate. Btw 61% was broken down into 70% pass for first time test takers and 33% pass for repeaters. They have those numbers for allo and DO too and the total student numbers but too mpuch to type out.

Here are updated stats from FA 2013 for 2011-2012:

U.S. pass rate: 94%
IMG pass rate: 73%


Also, anyone who wants to be licensed in the U.S. has to take the Step exams. So IMGs from all over the world take them.

 

[valkener]

Don't fool yourself, chances of matching from Carribean schools is extremely hard and nobody knows the official numbers. Let's say 50% of all students who start actually match. I find this number somewhat realistic but I suspect it might even be less. To those who are at a Carribean school I wish the best of luck, I respect their decision but would try to transfer into a US school if possible even if thet means to repeat.

Anyway, 50% is a very harsh number even for over-confident medical school students. Also, I've heard that some of these Carribean schools make you pay everything in advance. Can someone comfirm this?

 

[Bancrofti]

This. It skews their statistics. I have a few friends that started their schooling in January. So that gave them something like 6 months to study and crush Step 1. Most US MD students get 2 months at most for dedicated study time to Step 1. And we still manage to rock it...

Not hating on Carib grads. To be honest, some of the attitudes towards Carib grads that I've encountered in med school from my colleagues is annoying.

"Well, if they couldn't hack it here... they should have never gone to med school."

That kinda stuff irritates me.

Eh, people think that. Our internal stats that they take of the students say that the students who take longer to study actually do worse on Step 1. Very few people are diligent enough to do what it takes to actually utilize all that time wisely. The students who are going to be fine for the step take it soon after second year ends (within a month or 2), but the ones who take longer are typically the students who finished second year with lower GPAs and think that extra time is going to help them a lot.


Most of the info in this thread is flat out incorrect or flawed though. As the SGU kid above said, nobody here (with brains) is flaunting that statistic. Obviously when the school takes in over a thousand kids per year they are going to be flooding the country with graduates. I don't really like that they advertise that. I don't really care much for the Step 1 pass rate statistic either... though when you click the link it explains that it shows that it's only the pass rate which is 1% higher, in reality the actual score is so much more important. We're still in the same ballpark as US students, which I guess is a feat in itself, but something like that would actually be impressive if the overall scores were higher. The pass rate means nothing if everyone passes with a 192... (which obviously isn't our #, just an example).

Also, 82% (last time I checked) of all admitted students graduate on time. So this whole 2/3 things is BS. Of that 18%, some will be do the equivalent of remediating (they drop a course in fear of failing... or they just fail it in which case they would need to appeal), while yes some will fail out or drop out for whatever reason.

As far as not being able to take the step, also not true. Yes there are internal exams they use to monitor your progress. But even if you were to do poorly on both, they simply like to see that you sign up for a prep class before taking it. They don't stop you from doing so.

I like the school so far. Obviously any school has its down sides. Though I've had great experiences, I wouldn't advise any of my friends to go here just because of the unknown of what will happen in the future as far as matching due to the new schools in the US and the residency crunch. The other reason is that it will be extremely difficult to match in to anything competitive or to get even an uncompetitive residency position at a prestigious location. Though, I don't think many here are worried about that since many I have spoken to seem content and actually driven towards doing some type of primary care.

 

[notbobtrustme]

The Carib is a backdoor that's lucrative only because the US is a country that pays doctors extremely well. In any other country, these backdoors would have and have already been shutdown decades ago. In 2016 or so, the backdoor will be pretty much shut for every Carib student out there, which is a good thing. If you want to practice in the US, go through the US MD/DO system.

 

[rocketbooster]

Everyone keeps talking about the new med schools that will take all the current IMG residency spots. Just as med schools are expanding, don't you think more residency spots will open as well?

The whole point of increasing the number of US med student spots is to combat the physician shortage in this country. If you are maintaining the same number of residency spots but filling them with most US students, you're still not really increasing the number of physicians in the country. You're probably making better physicians but not necessarily more. Wouldn't it also make sense to increase the residency spots as well?