Interesting perspective: prosection vs. dissection

[TexasTriathlete]

This guy that works out at my gym is a neurosurgeon, and he has been giving me a lot of guidance through this process. He is an old-school MD who went to UT-Southwestern, which, as many of you I'm sure are aware, is one of the very elite schools in the country.

I was telling him about my interview at LECOM-B next week, and I asked him what he thought of prosection vs. dissection. He didn't know what prosection was, so I explained it to him. His response...

"We wasted so much f****** time in anatomy lab. I think it sounds like a great idea."

For those of you who don't already know, prosection is where the profs dissect the cadaver for you, prior to class, so that you don't have to cut through a bunch of fat, fascia, and whatnot, trying to get to the structures you're trying to study.

Just something to think about.

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[Meatwad]

Let's get a list going of schools with prosection.👍

 

[Jpc984]

If my memory serves me correctly, MSU uses prosection.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

LECOM-B does

I've heard that ATSU-SOMA and LMU-DCOM do, but cannot confirm.

 

[DiverDoc]

please O please somebody who can say for sure list KCUMB ?????

Im the only one who dissects our cat in CVA, removes fascia, fat etc.... After awhile I go numb doing it, I only anticipate itll be worse on a human.

 

[spicedmanna]

please O please somebody who can say for sure list KCUMB ?????

Sadly, we are not one of the schools that do prosection. You will have to spend some very long hours a week dissecting, starting with MSK. Luckily, the dissection is divided across two lab groups, so there won't be as much cutting and weeding through fascia. Also, you'll be one member of four, or so, per tank. Still, there will be hacking...I mean, er, dissecting...

 

[sexyman]

I am looking forward to disection. Even if it is a waste of time- the cutting is fun.

 

[MystA RavE]

I am looking forward to disection. Even if it is a waste of time- the cutting is fun.

For the first 10 minutes...

 

[DC DOC]

LECOM-B does

I've heard that ATSU-SOMA and LMU-DCOM do, but cannot confirm.

I was told while visiting ATSU-SOMA that everything in the lab is prosected before hand. No Dissection.

 

[Darktide]

Yeah- I've worked at a Plastination lab for the last EVER- and let me tell you, cutting is fun.... but you BARELY EVER DO IT... it's always cleaning cleaning cleaning- fascia, fat, gunk, it all gets in the way, gets all over everywhere.. It's quite horrible to actually dissect--- for more than a week Hell- you can do a whole body with just a blunt probe and a pair of scissors =) Thats why they pay people $30/hr to do it =)


I confirm that MSUCOM does use "Pro"sected bodies... It was a welcome nugget of knowledge =)

 

[spicedmanna]

...it's always cleaning cleaning cleaning- fascia, fat, gunk, it all gets in the way, gets all over everywhere.. It's quite horrible to actually dissect...

Yes, exactly! It's not that fun.

Also, you'll find yourself saying this quite a lot:

"Oh, wait is that a nerve? No, that's just fascia."

 

[scpod]

Personally, I think dissection is way overated, yet it's practically been a med school rite-of-passage since med schools began. We have a great picture in our "History of Osteopathci Medicine" display at school that shows everyone outside posing with their cadavers that have been dressed up and placed in all kinds of silly positions. The history of gross anatomy is interesting too when you read tales of people finding their own cadavers and sneaking them out of town and back to the school and stuff.

But...we aren't going to be anatomists, we are going to be doctors. That said, anatomy is an incredibly important part of your education. Fortunately, you will have a lot of time to practice your anatomy in OMM. As DOs you'll never stop learning it. But my time is a lot better spent studying other things than spending hours cutting through fat and fascia. One good note, though: If you REALLY want to do some cutting, you can do it in your second year at Bradenton. I don't know if other schools that use prosection give you that chance.

 

[Bacchus]

I went into the PCOM cadaver lab on a tour (bodies not exposed, law enforcement) and obviously students do the dissection. I still don't know what to think of this. The reason I got away from forensics was "dead people" I cannot help. If I have to dissect, I will. However, I think I'll have an all new respect for the dead. Death is a thing I get skittish over sometimes.

 

[Concubine]

I think dissection has some advantages to prosection. Although tedious and long, it adds an extra dimension to your understanding of anatomy. It's easy to go up to a cadaver that has already been dissected and view/study the part of interest, but their is a deeper understanding to be gained by actually finding it from scratch.

I think a wonderful addition to medical schools would be "live dissection". This would simulate on an even greater level interaction with actual patients. Although it would be of more value to certian specialties, even an optional elective would be awsome.

 

[Meatwad]

Personally, I think dissection is way overated, yet it's practically been a med school rite-of-passage since med schools began. We have a great picture in our "History of Osteopathci Medicine" display at school that shows everyone outside posing with their cadavers that have been dressed up and placed in all kinds of silly positions. The history of gross anatomy is interesting too when you read tales of people finding their own cadavers and sneaking them out of town and back to the school and stuff.

But...we aren't going to be anatomists, we are going to be doctors. That said, anatomy is an incredibly important part of your education. Fortunately, you will have a lot of time to practice your anatomy in OMM. As DOs you'll never stop learning it. But my time is a lot better spent studying other things than spending hours cutting through fat and fascia. One good note, though: If you REALLY want to do some cutting, you can do it in your second year at Bradenton. I don't know if other schools that use prosection give you that chance.

I guess this is before the days when dead people were treated with respect and honor? If I gave my body up to science, I'd expect to be poked, prodded, and torn apart, but not treated like the guy from "Weekend at Bernie's" That's pretty disgraceful, I wouldn't keep pictures like that at my museum.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

No kidding. I can't imagine that people actually did that.

 

[scpod]

....That's pretty disgraceful, I wouldn't keep pictures like that at my museum.

You really can't look at historical things from today's perspective. Today, we have services to commemorate the people and families of those who gave their bodies to science. Back then, bodies were sometimes bought from a morgue worker when enough couldn't be found in legitimate ways. It's doubtful that the picture in question was intended to be disrespectful in any way. They may have even thought that dressing them up and posing them made them more "human". Who's to say what was going through their minds 100 years ago, but the study of history is important nevertheless. There are some chilling photos on display at the holocaust museum. Should we study them or hide them from display and deny their existence?

 

[Sarikate]

We dissect once a week at my school and also have prosected cadavers to peruse. I think the amount of dissection you "get" to do and the number of students "per cadaver" is tremendously overrated in pre-meds' minds. It was neat for the first two weeks (when you're thinking things like, "What IS fascia, anyway?" and "Oh my goodness, arteries are way cool!" and you were wondering, somewhat excitedly, if anyone was going to have a vasovagal episode in the midst of all of it). Eight weeks into it and I almost had a vasovagal episode out of gratitude that one of my lab partners offered to clean up the inferior epigastric artery. It was so nice to just...watch.

 

[spicedmanna]

I think dissection has some advantages to prosection. Although tedious and long, it adds an extra dimension to your understanding of anatomy. It's easy to go up to a cadaver that has already been dissected and view/study the part of interest, but their is a deeper understanding to be gained by actually finding it from scratch.

I think in theory it is a good idea, but in reality, without adequate instruction and practice it just ends up being a lot of busy work and your dissection results in a mess.

One of my anatomy instructors came by our tank once and blunt-dissected the antibrachium in about 2 minutes (we were running a bit behind so she helped us more than usual). Whereas, if we were left to our own devices, the dissection would probably have taken us close to 3 hrs and it would have probably just been a hackjob.

 

[Bacchus]

I think in theory it is a good idea, but in reality, without adequate instruction and practice it just ends up being a lot of busy work and your dissection results in a mess.

One of my anatomy instructors came by our tank once and blunt-dissected the antibrachium in about 2 minutes (we were running a bit behind so she helped us more than usual). Whereas, if we were left to our own devices, the dissection would probably have taken us close to 3 hrs and it would have probably just been a hackjob.

That's what concerns me. I will do it if I must. However, I don't find it at all enlightenening that I'm hacking apart someone's body. Don't they teach dissection before you do it? This isn't a fetal pig, cat, or rabbit. Its a human body and there should be some amount of respect.

 

[Jpc984]

In my opinion, prosection vs. dissection should not be a primary criteria for selecting a school.

 

[jp104]

However, I don't find it at all enlightenening that I'm hacking apart someone's body.

You'll get over the hacking bit quick. It happens, and it happens alot if your cadaver is carrying alot of extra pounds. They teach you how to dissect, whether through handouts, a video right before lab, or via Grant's Dissector, but let's face it, most of us aren't going into surgery and get by on our mediocre dissection skills.

 

[Meatwad]

You really can't look at historical things from today's perspective. Today, we have services to commemorate the people and families of those who gave their bodies to science. Back then, bodies were sometimes bought from a morgue worker when enough couldn't be found in legitimate ways. It's doubtful that the picture in question was intended to be disrespectful in any way. They may have even thought that dressing them up and posing them made them more "human". Who's to say what was going through their minds 100 years ago, but the study of history is important nevertheless. There are some chilling photos on display at the holocaust museum. Should we study them or hide them from display and deny their existence?

That's a poor argument. Pictures of the disgusting events of the Holocaust are on display to remind people of the horrors. Is the museum at your school putting up the pictures of dressed up cadavers hanging out with students meant to be sobering? To show the barbaric and distasteful history of medicine? If so, then that is fine, but you'll have a hard time getting me to believe that is their reasoning.

People were more ignorant 100 years ago, but they were not so much so that they should be playing with dead people. I don't see how it could be justified, or even celebrated to the point of being put in a museum.

 

[EEL08]

In my opinion, prosection vs. dissection should not be a primary criteria for selecting a school.

I definitely wouldn't say that it should be primary criteria but it's definitely something to take into consideration.

 

[Jpc984]

Are the classes with dissection longer than with prosection? How does that work?

 

[bioteach]

I am looking for a school with dissection. But that is because I am currently an anatomy professor and I actually like the whole dissection thing. I know what SpicedManna means about the teacher/student abilities though. My students will spend an hour trying to separate out muscle groups that I can do in about a minute. (Its a skill...just not a terribly marketable one..)

My mother describes my job to her friends, "Oh Bioteach, she dissects cats for a living". She means well, but oh my lord, what her friends must think.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

That's funny. My mom calls me "TexasTriathlete" when she talks about me too.

 

[bioteach]

Bioteach is what I make everyone call me. She was a little offended at first, but once I explained to her about SDN she understood. Five years from now she will call me Dr. Bioteach.

 

[spicedmanna]

That's what concerns me. I will do it if I must. However, I don't find it at all enlightenening that I'm hacking apart someone's body. Don't they teach dissection before you do it? This isn't a fetal pig, cat, or rabbit. Its a human body and there should be some amount of respect.

Yes, I agree with you ahaydt. I have actually felt angry and sad upon examining the previous group's dissection on our cadaver and just the general condition of the dissections. It seems so disrespectful to just pull away and tear at muscles, etc. Also, it hampers my learning when 3 layers of muscles are torn up all at once, with little to no separation. 👎

Ultimately, my feeling is that everything in lab is rushed. I think we pretty much did the entire upper body in three weeks, excluding head and neck (MSK, nerves and vessel only, not internal organs). Also, factor in that after four hours standing in lab, it gets very tedious and there is a tendency to just do a half-assed job and leave lab so you can catch up on studying. Truthfully, good dissection takes patience and care, qualities which not everyone has or is willing to exercise. Furthermore, I didn't experience much instruction. We were just told to dissect this or that, shown what to look for in a prosected cadaver for a very brief time, and away we go. TA's and other staff go around to help, but often they are not able to spend enough time with each tank. Honestly, most of us have no idea what we are looking for. Lastly, in general, we do not receive any instruction on the art of dissection. These are not excuses for hacking away, but I think it is reality.

In my opinion, prosection vs. dissection should not be a primary criteria for selecting a school.

Agreed. However, it is one factor.

Are the classes with dissection longer than with prosection? How does that work?

No idea. I just know my labs are 4 hrs long so far and we dissect. It's laborious to be sure.

I am looking for a school with dissection. But that is because I am currently an anatomy professor and I actually like the whole dissection thing. I know what SpicedManna means about the teacher/student abilities though. My students will spend an hour trying to separate out muscle groups that I can do in about a minute. (Its a skill...just not a terribly marketable one..)

Yeah, agreed, good dissection is definitely a skill.

My mother describes my job to her friends, "Oh Bioteach, she dissects cats for a living". She means well, but oh my lord, what her friends must think.

 

[scpod]

I don't see how it could be justified, or even celebrated to the point of being put in a museum.

Things aren't displayed this way because they are celebrated. They are put there because they are our history. Right along beside it are old medicine bottles and early gyn instruments. A lot of things people did back then seem repugnant to me-- they didn't even take baths every day-- but you don't just bottle up your history and hide it away because you don't like it. You display it as a reminder of how much things have changed over time and ,yes, how "barbaric" some of our earlier practices were....but it's not a celebration.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

To be perfectly honest, between PBL and prosection, LECOM-B has got me thinking hard about closing up shop early if I get accepted after my interview next week. It seems like a great learning environment.

 

[osli]

I believe that dissection adds a deeper understanding of anatomy. The real question is whether that understanding is worth the significant time expenditure. You could be doing many other things during that few hours of dissection... going over the prosection, Netter's, whatever.

In my case, I had plenty of time to study any other resource I needed to, including the prosections in our lab, so I was greatful for the experience to actually dissect a human or three.

 

[Meatwad]

Things aren't displayed this way because they are celebrated. They are put there because they are our history. Right along beside it are old medicine bottles and early gyn instruments. A lot of things people did back then seem repugnant to me-- they didn't even take baths every day-- but you don't just bottle up your history and hide it away because you don't like it. You display it as a reminder of how much things have changed over time and ,yes, how "barbaric" some of our earlier practices were....but it's not a celebration.

Hey, as long as the school and students recognize and treat it as a despicable and embarassing part of their past, I have no problem with it being displayed. As long as it isn't looked upon as an amusing tradition of the old days.

 

[scpod]

To be perfectly honest, between PBL and prosection, LECOM-B has got me thinking hard about closing up shop early if I get accepted after my interview next week. It seems like a great learning environment.

I absolutely love the place, but it isn't for everybody by any means. I'd already paid one deposit when I interviewed there and I had more interviews set up, but I cancelled them because it "felt" like the place for me. IMO, people learn better in an environment where they are comfortable and Lecom-B certainly felt much more comfortable than the alternative I already had. Not just the school, but the whole area has tons of things to do like professional sports, amusement parks, beaches...etc. and year around good weather for outdoor activities.

Think about it long and hard before you drop your other choices, but it would be silly to get an acceptance and not put a deposit down before the deadline. I don't really feel bad about losing my other deposit at all because I know I ended up in the right place for me. Good luck

 

[Nickelpennykid]

I agree that this should, in no way, be a deciding factor for where you chose to go, but because I have had anatomy courses that have done both (dis. in medical school), I can honostly say that you learn the anatomy better when you have to dig. Does it take more time...yes. Is it annoying after the first lab...yes. However, actually having to dig around through unidentifiable matter helps you make associations that you would not have made with a prossection. You can list the attachments and courses for dura folds in the brain all day long, but you really can't get a feel for what they look like unless you dissect it yourself (structures like this are already cut away when you get your prosection).

It's a huge pain in the ass at the time, but if you have the choice do the dissection.

 

[scpod]

...I can honostly say that you learn the anatomy better when you have to dig....

.

Some people learn better that way, but not everyone. Definitely not me. We are all different, so it's good that you can choose a scholl that will either dissect or not dissect.

...but you really can't get a feel for what they look like unless you dissect it yourself (structures like this are already cut away when you get your prosection)....

They're not always cut away ahead of time. Some dissection is usually going on by the second year students or the professors at our school while you are in lab. Watching a "professional" do some dissecting is really pretty cool compared to watching a student do it. Students tend to cut right through important stuff and toss it to the side sometimes. When it was time for the heart, the anatomy director gathered some of us around one of the cadavers and showed us how to dissect it and quizzed us about the structures as he revealed them. He used it as a teaching session and it was much better than my fumbling attempt to get through it while watching a book or video would have been.

...It's a huge pain in the ass at the time, but if you have the choice do the dissection.

If I was going to be an anatomist or if anatomy was my only class in the first semester, then I might feel that way too. Again, the best thing about going to a DO school is that you are continually learning anatomy through your OMM course. But, you learn the really important stuff that you need to know for your practice as a physician, just not all the minutia. My school is particularly good about anatomy because we still cover anatomy in PBL over our two years in basic sciences. On our next PBL test we are responsible for everything in the thorax-- all over again. Repetition is really the key to learning things like anatomy, more so I believe than slowly cutting through a cadaver.

Then again, like I said, people learn differently, so it's good that we have choices 🙂.

 

[TexasTriathlete]

I freaking love PBL. When I interviewed at Drexel, they gave a presentation on their PBL, and I was sold.

 

[GreenShirt]

One of the interesting things I've heard from the physicians at our school is that the plastic models we have in lab are actually closer to life than the cadavers. It seems counter-intuitive since the cadavers were once living human bodies, but all the preservation and decay makes them less representative of what the structures look like in a living body. One of our instructors is an ME, does autopsies all day, and says the cadavers look "weird" in comparison to what she deals with.

So the point is, while cadavers have their place as an anatomy teaching tool, don't put too high a value on them when selecting a school. It's important to know your anatomy, but it's really up to you whether you want to spend 4-10hrs per week in lab doing dissection vs. 2-4hrs for prosecution. In the end knowing your physiology and drug reactions will probably serve you better as a physician than knowing the detailed anatomy of the hand or foot.

 

[spicedmanna]

In the end knowing your physiology and drug reactions will probably serve you better as a physician than knowing the detailed anatomy of the hand or foot.

True in many cases, especially if you are going into internal medicine. However, if you are going to be a surgeon, it's going to help you tremendously to have your anatomy down cold.

Anyway, you are right. It seems painful now, but it'll be over soon enough. The way my school does it, I'll be learning anatomy for a while. It is integrated across the systems-based curriculum, so it's for the whole year and even crosses over to 2nd year. However, we are getting the bulk of it right now through MSK; the other sections are less involved. I wish it would be over sooner. 🙁

 

[GreenShirt]

True in many cases, especially if you are going into internal medicine. However, if you are going to be a surgeon, it's going to help you tremendously to have your anatomy down cold.

That's true for surgery, but dissecting a cadaver may not be the only/best way to learn anatomy.

 

[MJB]

please O please somebody who can say for sure list KCUMB ?????

Im the only one who dissects our cat in CVA, removes fascia, fat etc.... After awhile I go numb doing it, I only anticipate itll be worse on a human.

I feel your pain...as I'm pretty sure I took that exact same class that you are taking...what a pain.

As for LMU-DCOM...I can confirm for you all that there is a LOT of prosection done for us and I LOVE IT. I can't imagine blowing time having to literally cut and scrape through all the meaningless fat, etc...just to get to what we have to learn. We have recently started to do a little more dissection on our own now that we're into the Thoracic cavity, mediastinum, etc...and it's not too bad. The time saved by the prosections is VERY much appreciated by this med student.