Investment Banking is NOT a good alternative to medicine

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Biochemat

Biochemat

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So - I was talking to a friend of mine - a sophomore who withdrew from his Organic Chemistry class w/Lab.

He was a pre-med guy. I went and talked to him, asked him why he withdrew. He told me he was going to be an investment banker. I laughed but it turned out he was serious. He had switched his major to a B.B.A. in Finance. I asked him where he got the idea, turns out it was on SDN. There seems to be a general agreement to steer materialists away from medicine to investment banking.

I told him that was ridiculous, and sat him down for a little. Told him a few thing, including a story about a friend of my dads. This guy took the easiest courses he could get. He majored in psychology with some extra curriculum. Making about 75% A's and 25% B's he got admitted into some college in San Francisco. They told him it was an honor to have him attending. He spent three more years studying, and one more in residency making about 50 grand a year - nice easy hours, full time, somewhat humbling, but overall painless residency. Afterwards, he attending an upscale shrimp-dinner/fine wine ceremony where he got all kinds of job offers. He turned them all down and went back to Edmonton, AB and joined a private practice. I don't know his exact salary - but he has a huge house a miles away from U of A, with heated indoor pools, drives a Porsche and a Prius, has a few small helicopters, and works 40 minus hours a week. This guy was a "foot specialist", not sure what his specific title was. He has a secure job, 4 kids, two older ones doing undergrad at U of A and driving new BMWs.

The moral of this story is, there are not so glorious medical fields that are quite rewarding. You can have reasonable hours and still be (lower) upper class. Think general practice, pediatrics, dermatology, podiatry, dentistry. There are many others - do research.

But investment banking is a horrible idea. TERRIBLE. First of all, its like winning the lottery. Lets say a firm (or investment bank) is hiring. They need about 15 Investment bankers. About 1000 apply. To get into the big firms like Goldman-Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup, etc... you have to be Ivy League minimum. I know too many MBAs who just didnt do good enough, and have been stuck with unreasonable jobs, paying about 50K working long hours. They are bitter, crushed, and depressed.

To become an investment banker is not easy. You have to excel in classes like statistics, and economics. And statistics and economics are NOT straightforward, like say - Biology and Physics. Serious econ and stat classes are demoralizing monsters. Econ and Stat teachers dont even agree with EACH OTHER. Not only are they totally boring, they are inherently not understandable.

How about looking at the lifestyle of an investment bankers. The hours are long - the pay is poor. Your have to been constantly hustling. 100 hour weeks are not uncommon. Unhealthy lifestyle, no family time. Constant travel.

If you're going into a field for the money - not-so-glorious medicine is MUCH better than investment banking. Ever heard of unemployed doctors? Of course not. Ever heard of unemployed MBAs. Oh yes - all the time. About 3.5% percent of those wanting to be RICH investment bankers make it. You can get into a third tier medical school, and it still does not make much difference in your salary.

All these allergists, dentists, family doctors, urologists, gynecologists, etc. can settle down in suburbs and college towns and live kings.

Look at these salaries:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=52

And hey, you really shouldn't go into medicine for the money. But sure is much better than investment banking for the money.
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In general, I agree. It seems success in the finance world seems to stem from one thing: connections. Unless you're went to an ivy, you're disadvantaged from the get go. There are so many business majors in the world... You think all of them make over $200,000+ a year? I doubt think so. A business major/Economics major is just as common nowadays as a biology major. Even more sad is the fact that just earning your MBA won't get you a good gig..
 
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ryandote said:
How much time did it take you to type that post? That time was wasted.

PS - Let me know what "residency" is only a year long and will allow me to afford helicopters.
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Agreed. There were some massive exaggerations and multiple gross errors in that post.

I mean for one, anyone who goes to med school thinking they will become a podiatrist has major issues.
 
Biochemat said:
So - I was talking to a friend of mine - a sophomore who withdrew from his Organic Chemistry class w/Lab.

He was a pre-med guy. I went and talked to him, asked him why he withdrew. He told me he was going to be an investment banker. I laughed but it turned out he was serious. He had switched his major to a B.B.A. in Finance. I asked him where he got the idea, turns out it was on SDN. There seems to be a general agreement to steer materialists away from medicine to investment banking.

I told him that was ridiculous, and sat him down for a little. Told him a few thing, including a story about a friend of my dads. This guy took the easiest courses he could get. He majored in psychology with some extra curriculum. Making about 75% A's and 25% B's he got admitted into some college in San Francisco. They told him it was an honor to have him attending. He spent three more years studying, and one more in residency making about 50 grand a year - nice easy hours, full time, somewhat humbling, but overall painless residency. Afterwards, he attending an upscale shrimp-dinner/fine wine ceremony where he got all kinds of job offers. He turned them all down and went back to Edmonton, AB and joined a private practice. I don't know his exact salary - but he has a huge house a miles away from U of A, with heated indoor pools, drives a Porsche and a Prius, has a few small helicopters, and works 40 minus hours a week. This guy was a "foot specialist", not sure what his specific title was. He has a secure job, 4 kids, two older ones doing undergrad at U of A and driving new BMWs.

The moral of this story is, there are not so glorious medical fields that are quite rewarding. You can have reasonable hours and still be (lower) upper class. Think general practice, pediatrics, dermatology, podiatry, dentistry. There are many others - do research.

But investment banking is a horrible idea. TERRIBLE. First of all, its like winning the lottery. Lets say a firm (or investment bank) is hiring. They need about 15 Investment bankers. About 1000 apply. To get into the big firms like Goldman-Sachs, JP Morgan, Citigroup, etc... you have to be Ivy League minimum. I know too many MBAs who just didnt do good enough, and have been stuck with unreasonable jobs, paying about 50K working long hours. They are bitter, crushed, and depressed.

To become an investment banker is not easy. You have to excel in classes like statistics, and economics. And statistics and economics are NOT straightforward, like say - Biology and Physics. Serious econ and stat classes are demoralizing monsters. Econ and Stat teachers dont even agree with EACH OTHER. Not only are they totally boring, they are inherently not understandable.

How about looking at the lifestyle of an investment bankers. The hours are long - the pay is poor. Your have to been constantly hustling. 100 hour weeks are not uncommon. Unhealthy lifestyle, no family time. Constant travel.

If you're going into a field for the money - not-so-glorious medicine is MUCH better than investment banking. Ever heard of unemployed doctors? Of course not. Ever heard of unemployed MBAs. Oh yes - all the time. About 3.5% percent of those wanting to be RICH investment bankers make it. You can get into a third tier medical school, and it still does not make much difference in your salary.

All these allergists, dentists, family doctors, urologists, gynecologists, etc. can settle down in suburbs and college towns and live kings.

Look at these salaries:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=52

And hey, you really shouldn't go into medicine for the money. But sure is much better than investment banking for the money.
Click to expand...

it is much more difficult to get into a top 70 medschool than the top mba programme. mba class size is much bigger--- has like 1000 people.
and truly, it is difficult to compare the two. different outlooks, lifestyles, and goals in life. IB is not for everyone, and so is medicine. medicine's not any size fits all field. so there are many pros and cons in both professions, and each person has to carefully weight and fit those cons/pros to his/her own personality.
 
$100 says this thread gets longer than "Do you believe in God"
 
Biochemat said:
The moral of this story is, there are not so glorious medical fields that are quite rewarding. You can have reasonable hours and still be (lower) upper class. Think general practice, pediatrics, dermatology, podiatry, dentistry. There are many others - do research.

All these allergists, dentists, family doctors, urologists, gynecologists, etc. can settle down in suburbs and college towns and live kings.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with the point of your post since any future career choice requires careful decision making and not the advice of a message board but this is patently false. $100,000 a year is smack dab in the middle of middle class these days. And that's not even including the very significant and life finance changing debt physicians lug around post-residency. Or the fact that reimbursement is still trending downward. Or that fact that raising overhead makes the margin of error between success and outright failure in private practice razor thin, no matter what your "income" is. Especially if you are trying to specialize to maximize your income, but practicing in a smaller town to reduce overhead.

What people around here are trying to do is make pre-meds open their eyes and realize doctors don't have the hot paycheck anymore. The years of television feeding the general public images of doctors driving porsches and living in mansion has not helped the issue.

Do you have good job security as a physician? Absolutely. Can you make a comfortable living and provide for your family? Absolutely. But if that's what its about for you, the years of stress and long hours will catch up for you. If you want a career where you can make $100,000 a year, hell I can think of dozens of careers that if you poured in the same amount of effort climbing the ladder your early years as a typical medical student/intern/resident does their first decade, you'd be making a pretty nice paycheck. And wouldn't be $200,000 in debt. The idea isn't that in investment banking its easy to get rich. They idea that it's a lot easier to get rich in investment banking compared to medicine.
 
Not sure I agree with the overall message of your post. I want to see as few money-driven lunatics in medicine as possible.

Your thread title has some merit.
 
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Seriously, can we have a single day on SDN without some pre-med trying to tell everyone what the physician or investment banking lifestyle is like because they have an anecdotal story from a few decades ago? Forget your quaint little story, you should have slapped your friend in the face for letting SDN change his career goals.
 
For some reason I get really aggravated when some one relates the field of medicine with money... These days it's the first damn thing that comes out of a pre-med's mouth...
If you are a gold digger stay away FROM MEDICINE...do investment banking...there are many people that LOVE the field for what it is and don't really care about the money.
 
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All of my relatives who are doctors are pretty rich.

Maybe your doctor relatives just suck.
 
It sounds like the OP's example may have gone to podiatry school, not medical school. Though, that big recruitment dinner and any college saying that it was an honor to have a given student seems out of line for either one.

Basing any lifetime decision solely on hoped for income without regard to personal strengths and interests, isn't usually considered a formula for happiness and success.
 
Biochemat said:
has a few small helicopters
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Ahahahahahahahaha. You are such a gullible wreck.

I couldn't get past that. Like, alright, I think I'll take three helicopters to go.

:laugh:

I seriously wonder how many people on SDN know what it's like to make $100,000 a year. The majority of these posters must come from some poor homes, because they act like they're going to win the lottery. A mortgage these days is going to be $2-3000 a month. I mean, come on. I'm dying here. And they're going to be driving around in a Mercedes E-class, on $100k a year? Oh yeah, with your $700 a month payment. There is some serious naivete around here.
 
Actually, helicopters can be pretty cheap. Small, dependable, used single-turbine whirly-birds can be had for >$20,000.

The monthly fuel costs for regular flight often overshadow the initial purchase price.

The same goes for single-propeller air planes.

I know many people in $40k-$60k a year jobs who own one or more aircraft and fly them a few times a year. They aren't even doctors.

Some of them didn't even go to college.


Flying isn't only for the super-rich. Just like Jurassic Park.
 
But it's not like that, Cegar. It's more like, this guy thinks he just went and bought three helicopters.

He just WENT and got three helicopters, just because. For the hell of it.

Oh, damn you. You used logic. Now the humor is gone.
 
Well, yeah. You go out and buy a helicopter.

How else would you get one? This isn't Tailspin!
 
Cegar said:
This isn't Tailspin!
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Omg! Tailspin.

You know I spent yesterday evening looking up Sesame Street clips on YouTube. Who the hell does that? I do. It brought back lots of memories.
 
The problem with being a physician if your primary interest is making money is that you have to spend time doing non-money related things (i.e. treating patients) to make the cash. If you are so interested in money, why not have a career in a field where you spend all of your time dealing with what you love (i.e. money.) For that reason alone, i think that a person who cares most about making serious cash should get into business. Think about it. You get to spend your time dealing with money which you so dearly love, and you get to make it too. Going into medicine for money just seems backwards. I mean, the only money related aspect of medicine these days is the paycheck. That doesn't seem like a career for someone obsessed with money. Do what you love. And if it is money, then go into business or a closely related field.
 
Biochemat said:
I don't know his exact salary - but he has a huge house a miles away from U of A, with heated indoor pools, drives a Porsche and a Prius, has a few small helicopters, and works 40 minus hours a week. This guy was a "foot specialist", not sure what his specific title was. He has a secure job, 4 kids, two older ones doing undergrad at U of A and driving new BMWs.. .
Click to expand...

are you sure this guy is a doctor? after reading your description, the next logical thing for him to do is to fly across the world, dressed in his superman coat, and cure cancer and aids. he def. sounds like a superman or an undercover spy rather than a doctor.
and we don't know, maybe his wife is a heiress, who buys cars, planes for the family. it is all a speculation...:rolleyes:
 
My mother always kind of yelled at the T.V. when Sesame Street was on because the characters often used incorrect grammar.

I still watched it. But it isn't that dear to me.

Also, they freaked me out with that whole South African AIDS character.

Tailspin! though. What a perfect show.
 
Cegar said:
My mother always kind of yelled at the T.V. when Sesame Street was on because the characters often used incorrect grammar.

I still watched it. But it isn't that dear to me.

Also, they freaked me out with that whole South African AIDS character.

Tailspin! though. What a perfect show.
Click to expand...
My mother yells at the T.V. for using incorrect grammar as well. For example, she hates those Nextel "Where you at" commercials.

Sesame Street did nothing for me educationally wise because I was already reading and doing math at 13. I'm kidding. When I watched SS they were using clips from the late 70s and 80s. The music was awesome (if you're into composers, you'd get a trip out of knowing who they hired), and Elmo wasn't checking his email.

I'm a nostalgic person, though. Don't mind me.
 
SaveThisLabRat said:
My mother yells at the T.V. for using incorrect grammar as well. For example, she hates those Nextel "Where you at" commercials.

Sesame Street did nothing for me educationally wise because I was already reading and doing math at 13. I'm kidding. When I watched SS they were using clips from the late 70s and 80s. The music was awesome (if you're into composers, you'd get a trip out of knowing who they hired), and Elmo wasn't checking his email.

I'm a nostalgic person, though. Don't mind me.
Click to expand...

I liked the Muppet Show myself. They had Victor Borge!
 
I bet you actually watched it.
 
I like you so much, can I PM you?
 
I worked in finance as an analyst before returning to school to do a post-bacc program, let me tell you, it's not all it's cracked up to be. There are other routes besides the tradition finance/accounting/econ major btw. Finance major does not equal Goldman Sachs employment, an Amex Black Card, and long weekends with the MDs (Managing Directors) in the Hamptons. However, if you're looking to read a rather sarcastic yet sometimes humorous account of what people often "think" the wall street life is like, check out the blog at leveragedsellout.com
 
99.9% of us aren't smart enough to make it in the ibanking world

nuff said...
 
paranoid_eyes said:
99.9% of us aren't smart enough to make it in the ibanking world

nuff said...
Click to expand...

big generalization. just like saying that 99.9% of i-bankers would not become successful doctors (which i think is true). because i bankers are more used to fast turnaround, quick return/result, and a fast-lane flashy lifestyle. but an average doctor has to go through loooong, strenuous, and humbling training to achieve the goal.
 
lisichka said:
it is much more difficult to get into a top 70 medschool than the top mba programme. mba class size is much bigger--- has like 1000 people.
and truly, it is difficult to compare the two. different outlooks, lifestyles, and goals in life. IB is not for everyone, and so is medicine. medicine's not any size fits all field. so there are many pros and cons in both professions, and each person has to carefully weight and fit those cons/pros to his/her own personality.
Click to expand...
"Top MBA" programs are generally considered top 10. Thats only ten programs. Based on GPA...sure, med school may be more competitive to get into..But you have to remember that these top buisness schools require 5-6 years of management experience before being considered for admission. The average age of the students at these programs is 30+..tuck has 250 students per year, columbia has 500, yale has 250...so to say that mba class size is like 1000 people is just flat out wrong (even though this may be true of a few programs).but its not a 1000 students in the mba, rather divided into the many differents fields..such as health management or consulting or policy, etc.....resulting in different "specializations" such as i banking,consulting,hedge funds, takeovers..etc.just like md's are divided into surgery,ortho,cardiology...etc..well, my point is, i dont really think that top mba programs are "easier" to get into. whatever the leniency is in gpa, is made up with the stringent experience requirments.i agree that medicine and banking appeals to different folks. For instance...I am competitive for many med schools in the top 50, but my application would not even be considered at the top 10 mba programs. sorry,not picking on ya, your post was just the first reply i read
 
Maybe wanting to be an investment banker is not the brightest idea (from a pre-med's point of view), but if I could do anything in undergrad over again, I would major in business. NOT a bad move regardless of what you do in life. I definitely had the time if I had just put some more effort into it.
 
lisichka said:
big generalization. just like saying that 99.9% of i-bankers would not become successful doctors (which i think is true). because i bankers are more used to fast turnaround, quick return/result, and a fast-lane flashy lifestyle. but an average doctor has to go through loooong, strenuous, and humbling training to achieve the goal.
Click to expand...

:laugh:

You have the typical Hollywood perception of finance. Talk about generalizations.
 
DeadCactus said:
Seriously, can we have a single day on SDN without some pre-med trying to tell everyone what the physician or investment banking lifestyle is like because they have an anecdotal story from a few decades ago? Forget your quaint little story, you should have slapped your friend in the face for letting SDN change his career goals.
Click to expand...


:thumbup: :banana::banana::banana:
 
lisichka said:
and we don't know, maybe his wife is a heiress, who buys cars, planes for the family. it is all a speculation...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
No kidding. The doctors I know with huge houses and awesome cars also have wives with really really rich daddies (yes, I know several).
 
Since lots of people are getting hung up on helicopters, let me clarify. (By the way, thank you Cegar for the reasoned input).
When I said "small" helicopters, I was not talking about OPEC-executive style helicopters. I was not even talking about 20,000$ helicopters. I was talking about small, $10K and less, small hobby-helicopters. Room for about 4 people, his other ones seat 1 and 2 people.

And DeadCactus, while I did not slap him, I gave him quite a verbal lashing for being so shallow and gullible. Searching through previous posts, people try to discourage potential doctors from entering healthcare "for the money" (which is good) by steering them to investment banking (which is really wrong!).
This sophomore had no stomach for business, and was quite moral and caring and feminine - so I thought a career in healthcare would be a good fit for him.

As many of you may suspect, the economy seems to be on the brink of a recession. You can be assured that demand for investment bankers is going to dwindle quite rapidly.

I wouldn't day that 99.9% of people are not smart enough to make it in the investment banking world, I think it would be more predisposition than intelligence.
Very few people like such grueling work and hours. Very few have the [intuition] to succeed as investment bankers.

Think of it in terms of this. How would you like to be doing a high-paying residency for the rest of your life. You superiors will be "sh**ting" all over you and you will be working your a$$ off.

And anyone who says "gold diggers stay away from medicine and go into investment" banking it either a heartless egotistic manipulator or just a damn fool.

I can guarantee you, 100,000 is not only the LOWEST end of medicine, but it is also quite a bit more than "smack dan in the middle of middle class". That's got to be upper middle class. HA! middle of middle class would be about $50K - truckers are considered "middle" middle-class.
 
Biochemat said:
To become an investment banker is not easy. You have to excel in classes like statistics, and economics. And statistics and economics are NOT straightforward, like say - Biology and Physics. Serious econ and stat classes are demoralizing monsters. Econ and Stat teachers dont even agree with EACH OTHER. Not only are they totally boring, they are inherently not understandable.
Click to expand...

This thread has already been hijacked but I thought this was funny enough to point out. As an Econ/Pre-Med in undergrad, I loved my Econ and Math classes and hated the sciences. I though Economics and Math made more sense since they at least required a bit of analysis than most science which just asked me to memorize most stuff (there was some analysis in the higher sciences but not to the extent of say: Microeconomic Theory).

I should probably also point out that I enjoyed my chemistry and physics related science classes more than the biology one.

Go figure. I am the opposite of your quote.
 
IceMan0824 said:
This thread has already been hijacked but I thought this was funny enough to point out. As an Econ/Pre-Med in undergrad, I loved my Econ and Math classes and hated the sciences. I though Economics and Math made more sense since they at least required a bit of analysis than most science which just asked me to memorize most stuff (there was some analysis in the higher sciences but not to the extent of say: Microeconomic Theory).

I should probably also point out that I enjoyed my chemistry and physics related science classes more than the biology one.

Go figure. I am the opposite of your quote.
Click to expand...

Was that an Econ B.A., (B.S. in some schools maybe?), or an Econ B.B.A?
I don't know the level of your courses, I took some Honors w/Theory upper level econ. and Stat courses, and econometrics. Most of my class made a 2.0, some failed, and I barely got my A. Afterwards I was sick of Econ and Stat. Econometrics particularly REALLY sucks. Most of the campus hates those courses, and most of my friends from other campuses loathed them.
I did AP Macro in HS and it was a breeze even back then. Micro in college was ridiculously easy too. I didn't really like Biology, Anatomy, Physiology, etc. because it was LOADS of memorizing. Biochemistry is great too - even though there is some extensive memorizing, it is offset by much sweet complex analysis that I just love.
Physics and Calculus were the best for me because they were just straightforward analytical subjects.
Of course - the ultra-upper Physics get more BSsy, but VERY few people go that far, and I know I won't be.


You may love Math, and I do to.
I hardly consider stat sequence to be a math. I hate those courses.
 
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What's the problem with going into medicine for the money? I most definitely am not, but any sort of encouragement for people to become doctors is a good thing. There is a worldwide need for doctors right now and having more people in the field is a great thing. Even if people get into it for the money, the contributions that they make to society once they are doctors cannot be denied.

I get the feeling that many people discourage others from doing things for money unnecessarily. If somebody is genuinely happier with money, what's wrong with letting them choose a career based on the amount that they will make? If they choose medicine, it will be good for everybody. If they end up hating medicine, they will leave the field. What's the problem with that? Let capitalism work for itself.
 
and was quite moral and caring and feminine - so I thought a career in healthcare would be a good fit for him.
Click to expand...
DEAD ON ARRIVAL I'M LAUGHING SO HARD.

Gentlemen! Make sure to cut off your nuts before your step 1s!
 
Cardiac said:
What's the problem with going into medicine for the money?
Click to expand...

Because pre-meds are idiots and don't comprehend the fact that there needs to be money in medicine for them to pay back those $200,000 worth of student loans and maybe have some money leftover to eat.

God forbid medicine should be like anything else where you're paid for the fruits of your labor and not cheated out of them by someone who claims what you provide should be given for free or dirt cheap.
 
I agree, but I'm not saying that people shouldn't be able to get affordable healthcare if they need it, and if we hold absolute capitalism as the ideal, that's what would happen. There always have to be people who will ignore what they are entitled to and give care for free (and I hope that I will be one of those). But there also must be people who get paid very well for their work, so as to make the profession a desirable one. I'm more than willing to talk politics/economic theory of healthcare, but this doesn't seem like the place.

What I'm saying is that if people want to make money, there is no reason that they should be discouraged from the field. Not only are they important on the economics side of things, but they fulfill our society's need for doctors and they boost competition be better physicians. The OP's view of things is a little blown out of proportion since he only has one (very rare) example, but his point is still a good one.
 
I disagree investment banking is sweet. EVERYONE reading this should go into investment banking, especially people applying this cycle. Stop filling out your apps, stop studying for the MCAT, and look into IB. ;)
 
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