Investment Banking is NOT a good alternative to medicine

[shmrshines]

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[shmrshines]

Agreed. There were some massive exaggerations and multiple gross errors in that post.

I mean for one, anyone who goes to med school thinking they will become a podiatrist has major issues.[/quote]

lol...

 

[paranoid_eyes]

Because pre-meds are idiots and don't comprehend the fact that there needs to be money in medicine for them to pay back those $200,000 worth of student loans and maybe have some money leftover to eat.

i agree with the "premeds are idiots" part

however, you must understand that some of us will have NO loans whatsoever because our parents will pay for everything. for those of us in that position, we go into medicine for the literal fascination of the human body. I honestly think that med schools should consider this. Im definitely not going into medicine for the money, because i don't need any money. i have more than enough. im doing it cause i have a passion.

 

[Character]

i agree with the "premeds are idiots" part

however, you must understand that some of us will have NO loans whatsoever because our parents will pay for everything. for those of us in that position, we go into medicine for the literal fascination of the human body. I honestly think that med schools should consider this. Im definitely not going into medicine for the money, because i don't need any money. i have more than enough. im doing it cause i have a passion.

care to throw some my way???

 

[LandSpeed]

This is a well written, thoughtful post. I thought that I'd compliment you on it.

 

[Asp]

There are many professions that pay well and many professions that carry high status. Enumerating a few:

High pay
Actuarial science
Dentistry
Software engineering
...

High status
Politician
Scientist
Teacher
...

Most smart, ambitious young people want BOTH money and status, and thus turn to either medicine, law, or finance.

Which one to choose? Obviously some people will be more science-oriented, or language-oriented, or numbers-oriented, and choose accordingly.

But in the absence of that bias, I would say medicine is the best bet over law and finance, for the following reasons:

1. Egalitarianism in compensation. Medicine is more egalitarian than law and especially more so than finance. To make it in law, you have to go to one of the 14 prestigious law schools, get a job at a big Manhattan firm for 160k or so, and then make partner if you want to make seven figures. Making partner is not easy; luck and connections are at play, not just your work output. I know very little about the compensation structure of investment banking, but although you start at around 200-250k salary plus bonus I'm pretty sure you won't break six figures without some serious combination of luck and hard work.

To make it in medicine, you simply need to get into any US allopathic school, do average or better, and pick the right specialty (not FP/IM/GS/etc). If you do this you are pretty much guaranteed 300k+ after residency in private practice for the rest of your working life, as long as you aren't picky about location (if you are, work a bit harder in medical school).

Personally, I'd rather have a good shot of making comfortable six figures (500k pretax if my significant other also works) than a having a shot at seven, because the marginal value of money becomes low after about 500k or so, at least for me.

2. Greater proportion of your work is value creation rather than value transference. Most lawyers and investment bankers create very little of tangible value to society and may in fact be of net detriment. The marginal value of medicine on the aggregate scale is also zero (but I'm pretty sure the total value isn't, and at least it's not negative). This will make you feel better about yourself.

3. Geographic flexibility. It's greater in medicine than in law or finance. Most of the big firms in law and finance are in the big cities, and a large proportion are in one place, Manhattan. People get sick everywhere.

Of course everything in this post is quite true and obvious. I only wrote it to address some common confusions among premeds on this forum:

a) "Of course medicine is a noble and humanitarian profession, but you won't be making much money if you choose this path! Reimbursements are falling! Choose another profession if you're in it for the money." No, medicine is still quite a lucrative profession if you're in the right specialties, some of which are not super-competitive at all. See point 1 above.

b) "I'd be happy just making 100k and doing what I love." Medicine, unlike law and finance, has aspiring practitioners who believe that their main motivations are not money and status, but rather a higher calling. There are a rare few who are thus motivated, true. But usually these opinions adjust to reality, like the iris to light, as they mature and hit residency. You're unlikely to be happy making 100k, and unlikely to love what you're doing if that is medicine, because it's not your passion, it's your job. Though, medicine is probably more tolerable, maybe even likable, as a job than either law or finance.

 

[Asp]

Also, Biochemat, tell your dad's friend that if he wants to be upper class, he needs to get rid of his Porsche; Porsches are vulgar.

 

[junqu]

The idea that doctors get really rich these day shows a VAST misunderstanding of the current state of american medicine, especially with regard to the FUTURE.

Secondly, the reason you see so many failed business graduates is because there are SO many more bottom feeders. Medicine is extremely quality controlled from the BOTTOM (so there isn't a huge "underclass" of MD students) whereas any jackass can get a business degree.

If you look at ibankers who work REMOTELY as hard / have REMOTELY the talent of the AVERAGE MD student, you immediately see that ibanking (as well as law) are a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better deal financially.

example: good friend of mine, smart guy, worked maybe 50% as hard as I did in college (kind of skewed as I was 4.0 40) makes 130,000 first year out of college at a large I-bank.

 

[lisichka]

Also, Biochemat, tell your dad's friend that if he wants to be upper class, he needs to get rid of his Porsche; Porsches are vulgar.

 

[What the pho]

OR 99.9% don't have the connections. Getting into a bulge-bracket training program is often about connections, not technical know-how.

You well find out when you apply for residency

 

[thebeatblitz]

The idea that doctors get really rich these day shows a VAST misunderstanding of the current state of american medicine, especially with regard to the FUTURE.

Secondly, the reason you see so many failed business graduates is because there are SO many more bottom feeders. Medicine is extremely quality controlled from the BOTTOM (so there isn't a huge "underclass" of MD students) whereas any jackass can get a business degree.

If you look at ibankers who work REMOTELY as hard / have REMOTELY the talent of the AVERAGE MD student, you immediately see that ibanking (as well as law) are a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH better deal financially.

example: good friend of mine, smart guy, worked maybe 50% as hard as I did in college (kind of skewed as I was 4.0 40) makes 130,000 first year out of college at a large I-bank.

You are seriously misrepresenting the level of work involved as a junior analyst at a bulge-bracket level investment bank. Depending on division, you can work 7 days a week, with 6-6 being typical work hours. For 3 years. Then, they might promote you; might not too.

There is no shot in hell that I "work" anywhere near a 6-6, 7 days a week, and I go to more classes than most of my classmates. Nobody is constantly yelling in my face to get things done and scutting out worse work than the worst amount of discharge papers.

So, you work ridiculous hours, 7 days a week, for the shot at an associate position in which most of your "work" ends up not really mattering since promotions are ultimately doled out by connections and networking. This alone would drive most of the righteously indignant pre-meds railing against nepotism/politicking/etc. bat**** insane. The grass is not always greener.

Here comes the anecdote bomb: Of the three close friends I had in college that decided to go the way of finance, 1 girl went to GS and dropped out for law school after a year, 1 guy couldn't predict the future and had a nifty job doing CDO risk management at Bear, and another went to JPMorgan for 9 months, quit, and landed an analyst position in private equity ($$$) because he had met an alumnus for the group at an alumni baseball game. Now, batting .333 isn't bad in baseball; choice is yours for life.

Medicine isn't fair by any means, but at least to me, it's way more "fair" than finance.

 

[Iquitos]

In general, I agree. It seems success in the finance world seems to stem from one thing: connections. Unless you're went to an ivy, you're disadvantaged from the get go. There are so many business majors in the world... You think all of them make over $200,000+ a year? I doubt think so. A business major/Economics major is just as common nowadays as a biology major. Even more sad is the fact that just earning your MBA won't get you a good gig..

This is true. I know a fairly wealthy CPA that told me that with his MBA and 50 cents he can buy a can of coke. His CPA degree gave him knowlege to bank 600K+ a year, not his MBA. Granted he is not your corner H&R block CPA. Before I get a bunch of flames thrown by people telling me that CPA's don't make that much, let me add that I personally know of 3 that make well over 500K, but they are partners in a fairly large firm (>50 employees). They start their CPA's out at around 75-100K. IMHO public accounting is a much better bet than IB. But then again, then hours suck terribly from about Oct-April (tax season).

 

[Rikkye]

What's the problem with going into medicine for the money? I most definitely am not, but any sort of encouragement for people to become doctors is a good thing. There is a worldwide need for doctors right now and having more people in the field is a great thing. Even if people get into it for the money, the contributions that they make to society once they are doctors cannot be denied.

I get the feeling that many people discourage others from doing things for money unnecessarily. If somebody is genuinely happier with money, what's wrong with letting them choose a career based on the amount that they will make? If they choose medicine, it will be good for everybody. If they end up hating medicine, they will leave the field. What's the problem with that? Let capitalism work for itself.

Agree, if a person wants to go into medicine for money, who are you to tell him that he can't? Those who say that they don't live for money are naive, self-righteous liars. Be realistic, we all have bills to pay. Some of us are altruistic animals, but we all have our limits.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

example: good friend of mine, smart guy, worked maybe 50% as hard as I did in college (kind of skewed as I was 4.0 40) makes 130,000 first year out of college at a large I-bank.

yea, but for that 130k, he's working harder than most resident physicians. not saying it's not worth it, just pointing it out. i guarantee he isn't having a blast.

 

[gujuDoc]

What's the problem with going into medicine for the money? I most definitely am not, but any sort of encouragement for people to become doctors is a good thing. There is a worldwide need for doctors right now and having more people in the field is a great thing. Even if people get into it for the money, the contributions that they make to society once they are doctors cannot be denied.

I get the feeling that many people discourage others from doing things for money unnecessarily. If somebody is genuinely happier with money, what's wrong with letting them choose a career based on the amount that they will make? If they choose medicine, it will be good for everybody. If they end up hating medicine, they will leave the field. What's the problem with that? Let capitalism work for itself.

Yeah but often the ones who want to go into it for the money don't go in the fields that are most needed, i.e. primary care, general surgery, etc. they gun for the best lifestyle specialties that make the most money and go in the areas of the country where the most money is and not where the need is, so your argument is weak.

 

[Darqueness]

The reason Why there is such a need for primary care, etc.. is because most people do it for the money in the first place selecting higher paying specialties. Meaning money is a Large factor in deciding to go medical for most people and a very strong motivating factor all the way to the end and should not be underestimated.
So, if no one went to medical school for money then there would be a shortage of all the higher paying specialties as well.

Money is not everything... but it's damn close as anything gets.

An ideal world would be nice though....

 

[CTT]

It's reasonable to expect compensation.

 

[xanthomondo]

Where can you get a functional helicopter for $10,000? If it were that cheap wouldn't we see these things everywhere?

Even this piece of crap: http://www.ultralightnews.ca/airv2002/dynali.htm is ~$150,000

 

[Character]

Where can you get a functional helicopter for $10,000? If it were that cheap wouldn't we see these things everywhere?

Even this piece of crap: http://www.ultralightnews.ca/airv2002/dynali.htm is ~$150,000

how dare you call my baby a piece of crap.

 

[gujuDoc]

The reason Why there is such a need for primary care, etc.. is because most people do it for the money in the first place selecting higher paying specialties. Meaning money is a Large factor in deciding to go medical for most people and a very strong motivating factor all the way to the end and should not be underestimated.
So, if no one went to medical school for money then there would be a shortage of all the higher paying specialties as well.

Money is not everything... but it's damn close as anything gets.

An ideal world would be nice though....

I think you missed my point. My point was that using the whole we need to encourage more people to go med school because of the shortage was a weak argument. I'm not denying that I understand whypeople go into the higher specialties or that I understand why people care so much about money. Just don't claim that its going to reduce the shortage that much when most of the shortage is in the fields no one wants to go into.

 

[scrubswannabe]

this is a great thread
one of my favorites on sdn in a while

 

[junqu]

You are seriously misrepresenting the level of work involved as a junior analyst at a bulge-bracket level investment bank. Depending on division, you can work 7 days a week, with 6-6 being typical work hours. For 3 years. Then, they might promote you; might not too.

There is no shot in hell that I "work" anywhere near a 6-6, 7 days a week, and I go to more classes than most of my classmates. Nobody is constantly yelling in my face to get things done and scutting out worse work than the worst amount of discharge papers.

So, you work ridiculous hours, 7 days a week, for the shot at an associate position in which most of your "work" ends up not really mattering since promotions are ultimately doled out by connections and networking. This alone would drive most of the righteously indignant pre-meds railing against nepotism/politicking/etc. bat**** insane. The grass is not always greener.

Here comes the anecdote bomb: Of the three close friends I had in college that decided to go the way of finance, 1 girl went to GS and dropped out for law school after a year, 1 guy couldn't predict the future and had a nifty job doing CDO risk management at Bear, and another went to JPMorgan for 9 months, quit, and landed an analyst position in private equity ($$$) because he had met an alumnus for the group at an alumni baseball game. Now, batting .333 isn't bad in baseball; choice is yours for life.

Medicine isn't fair by any means, but at least to me, it's way more "fair" than finance.

It might be more fair in the sense of its predictability. I agree there. But its the only high level profession in the US that has to work in a bastardized, quasi-socialist market. So while I-bankers work hard (and they get to do this work with VASTLY less training and up-front opportunity cost investment) at least they're getting paid what the market yields for that work.

If you add up how much harder a pre-med (real deal, not a failed premed) works during college, then the medical school and residency process, and poured that into an analyst job, that person would come out (financially) WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY ahead of the doc. Personally, I believe there are other benefits to medicine. But the financial portion is A MESS right now.

Physicians work is definitely undervalued in today's market.

 

[junqu]

Secondly, look at what I said about quality contrl at the bottom end...the I-bankers quitting is exactly what I mean by that. you've got a lot of fresh Bus grads who really haven't a clue what they want to do, they try the big banks, can't handle it, and quit. That's just not how medicine works.

You need to look at the smart + hardworking + dedicated people in banking who know what its really about, and then compare them to the MD's. They're the ones who are similar to the AVERAGE MD.

 

[littlealex]

For those that are at an elite undergrad, IBanking is a great path. Most of the top firms recruit directly on campus for internships, and if you rock those and keep your 3.9, you'll be at JPMorgan with your 2 buddies making 300k a year out of college.

At least that's what my friends are doing.
The good news is they buy me plane tickets to visit NY.

 

[junqu]

For those that are at an elite undergrad, IBanking is a great path. Most of the top firms recruit directly on campus for internships, and if you rock those and keep your 3.9, you'll be at JPMorgan with your 2 buddies making 300k a year out of college.

At least that's what my friends are doing.
The good news is they buy me plane tickets to visit NY.

That sounds about right....medical people - stop sticking your heads in the sand about the fincancial problems in medicine. They're real, and there's nothing wrong with, in America, sticking up for your right to be treated/paid fairly in our capitalist system, exactly how it worked for years and years up until now.

 

[Begaster]

For those that are at an elite undergrad, IBanking is a great path. Most of the top firms recruit directly on campus for internships, and if you rock those and keep your 3.9, you'll be at JPMorgan with your 2 buddies making 300k a year out of college.

At least that's what my friends are doing.
The good news is they buy me plane tickets to visit NY.

What nonsense. You start off with many others at about 60-80k plus small bonuses, working around 80-100 hours a week. If there are any hiccups in the market, you're let off almost immediately. After a few years, a small percentage will be upgraded in the company and start earning tons of money, the rest will be let go.

 

[Wylde]

Almost any financially lucrative career (law, medicine, i-banking, CEOs/VPs/Entrepreneurs, etc.) are 60-hour/week jobs by definition!

The only job in the aforementioned list that is a 9-5 job are DOCTORS (only in certain competitive specialties). I hate to come crashing down on some people's realities, but the rich-*** lawyers, business people, etc. work a ton! The thing is, a lot less people will happily do the work of a lawyer over the work of a doctor. And almost no other career/degree has near the job security as a physician.. when the economy crashes, how many people decide to not get a tumor removed?!

MBAs/JDs also don't guarantee you a great job, MDs/DOs practically do.

You may have more education and less pay, but the hours will be the same and the work will be more stimulating. You decide what you would rather do until you retire!

PS: If you want to work 20-40 hours a week, have very little post-BS education, and make over 200k, then become an heir or create the next google. Otherwise, you're pretty much screwed.

 

[xanthomondo]

Almost any financially lucrative career (law, medicine, i-banking, CEOs/VPs/Entrepreneurs, etc.) are 60-hour/week jobs by definition!

The only job in the aforementioned list that is a 9-5 job are DOCTORS (only in certain competitive specialties). I hate to come crashing down on some people's realities, but the rich-*** lawyers, business people, etc. work a ton! The thing is, a lot less people will happily do the work of a lawyer over the work of a doctor. And almost no other career/degree has near the job security as a physician.. when the economy crashes, how many people decide to not get a tumor removed?!

MBAs/JDs also don't guarantee you a great job, MDs/DOs practically do.

You may have more education and less pay, but the hours will be the same and the work will be more stimulating. You decide what you would rather do until you retire!

PS: If you want to work 20-40 hours a week, have very little post-BS education, and make over 200k, then become an heir or create the next google. Otherwise, you're pretty much screwed.

ahahaha if you think they worked less than 20 hours a day creating google youre nuts

 

[junqu]

Almost any financially lucrative career (law, medicine, i-banking, CEOs/VPs/Entrepreneurs, etc.) are 60-hour/week jobs by definition!

The only job in the aforementioned list that is a 9-5 job are DOCTORS (only in certain competitive specialties). I hate to come crashing down on some people's realities, but the rich-*** lawyers, business people, etc. work a ton! The thing is, a lot less people will happily do the work of a lawyer over the work of a doctor. And almost no other career/degree has near the job security as a physician.. when the economy crashes, how many people decide to not get a tumor removed?!

MBAs/JDs also don't guarantee you a great job, MDs/DOs practically do.

You may have more education and less pay, but the hours will be the same and the work will be more stimulating. You decide what you would rather do until you retire!

PS: If you want to work 20-40 hours a week, have very little post-BS education, and make over 200k, then become an heir or create the next google. Otherwise, you're pretty much screwed.

hahaha...oh man. where to start.

they recently capped residency hours at 80/week, which they PUSH. I can see a LITTLE bit where you're coming from if you're saying starting out in private practice you could work 9-5. That's possibly true (but you'd have unhappy partners/if you mentioned it during interviews you'd have a hard time finding a job). And assuming you pulled it off, you'd have the associated pay cut - which brings you back to the original problem: MD's services are massively undervalued in the market today because of socializing and other economic forces.

 

[parto123]

What nonsense. You start off with many others at about 60-80k plus small bonuses, working around 80-100 hours a week. If there are any hiccups in the market, you're let off almost immediately. After a few years, a small percentage will be upgraded in the company and start earning tons of money, the rest will be let go.

Well, close, but youre selling it a little short. In a decent market, the bonus for an analyst will be pretty close the salary, plus there is oftentimes a signing bonus. And if don't go into "pure ib" the hours aren't as bad.

Also, if you start off at a major bank, your future prospects are pretty good. Whether being chosen to stay on, going buy-side or getting an mba.

You can go to sites like dealbreaker.com for more specific information about the finance world.

 

[neurofreak]

Well, close, but youre selling it a little short. In a decent market, the bonus for an analyst will be pretty close the salary, plus there is oftentimes a signing bonus. And if don’t go into “pure ib” the hours aren’t as bad.

Also, if you start off at a major bank, your future prospects are pretty good. Whether being chosen to stay on, going buy-side or getting an mba.

You can go to sites like dealbreaker.com for more specific information about the finance world.

sorry littlealex, but recent grad bankers (even those at bulge bracket banks) don't start at 300,000k. 60-80k for the base, usually 10-20k signing bonus, with most of the money coming in the year end bonus.

it's true that the hours worked are insane, and that if you calculate the amount earned per hour, bankers usually don't make more than others in the business world. however, no other job allows recent grads to put in that many hours/week, and thus earn that type of money fresh out of college.

 

[Maxprime]

To clear things up, at the big houses:
Analysts:
60k base + 20k signing + 50-70k bonus == 130-150k your first year out
Each year after that is usually +10k base +15k to the salary range

Associates (after 2-3yrs as an Analyst):
80k base + 20-25k signing (stub bonus) + 100-150k EOY bonus == 200-250k first year out of b-school (don't forget forgivable loans for school)
It's really variable after that, but associates earn between 250-400k

VPs (after 3-5+yrs as Associate) usually start out around $500k and MDs (if you're lucky, eventually) can easily top $1m. They also start to really drop in hours and really rise in responsibility - the head MD of my group worked 40-50 hours a week and made $14m my last year there.

It's hard work, but after your 1st (maybe 2nd) year as an analyst you're no longer working 100 hour weeks. As your responsibility goes up, the odds of you getting fired goes up . . . but most people just walk across the street and get hired by a competitor. Bankers get called by headhunters all the time - there aren't many people who can do this work. Not everyone earns this much, but the people who don't bring in money get fired before they make VP. If you think the hours are long and the pay is poor for someone above the age of 30 in IB, you have no idea what you're talking about.

There's not much comparison between that and being a doctor. Bankers don't help people - in fact, as we can see right now, your job is to make money for your firm at all costs. If you can live with this and can value your accomplishments by your net worth, it's the perfect job.

 

[Cardiac]

Yeah but often the ones who want to go into it for the money don't go in the fields that are most needed, i.e. primary care, general surgery, etc. they gun for the best lifestyle specialties that make the most money and go in the areas of the country where the most money is and not where the need is, so your argument is weak.

It doesn't matter where they go. If they have the dedication and brains to be derm or whatever, they will force somebody else to be primary care by taking their spot. Again, capitalism will get people where they're supposed to be if we let it do its thing.