Is a Fellowship the only way to stay ahead?

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MedicineMike

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I am one of the many 3rd yr medical students who browses this forum looking for insight into the future of anesthesia. I am highly interested in this field but like everyone else on here, I am worried about CRNA encroachment. I actually had a CRNA tell me the other day not to do anesthesia because she can do everything the MDs can. So is doing a fellowship the only way to maintain separation from these Midlevel anesthetists? Can CRNAs do neuro, or cardiac, or peds cases?

Thx
 
I am one of the many 3rd yr medical students who browses this forum looking for insight into the future of anesthesia. I am highly interested in this field but like everyone else on here, I am worried about CRNA encroachment. I actually had a CRNA tell me the other day not to do anesthesia because she can do everything the MDs can. So is doing a fellowship the only way to maintain separation from these Midlevel anesthetists? Can CRNAs do neuro, or cardiac, or peds cases?

Thx

The worry about midlevel encroachment has been going on for a long time. To be brief, if you love the field then pursue it. CRNAs are the most aggressive of midlevels, so I'm not surprised by her statement, but I'm guessing she was supervised and while many CRNAs state they need no MD oversight, guess who they call as fast as they can when it hits the fan?

Doing a fellowship in peds, cardiac, pain, or ICU will give you added job security. But there is still a need for community anesthesiologists who 'do it all'. Is doing another year of training worth the $300k you give up in income, while your loans continue to gain interest, to take a job that likely won't pay you more for that extra year of training? That's for you to decide.

I've seen CRNAs do neuro, cardiac, and peds, but all were supervised. I've never even heard of unsupervised CRNAs doing cardiac or remotely complex peds. Does that mean it doesn't exist? No, it just means I've never heard of it.

Listen, there are 'safer' fields out there. But I hear complaints from the cardiologists too, as well as all of the other medical subspecialists. I don't interact with too many unhappy orthos, ENTs, or urologists. And honestly, incomes for primary care seem to be increasing and while it's not something I could do personally, it does provide happiness for many internists, family docs, and pediatricians out there. Same goes for the EM physicians.
 
How can nurses do cardio anesthesia or neuro anesthesia without supervision? Do they have extra training after CRNA school?
 
Fellowships help but not if you are uninterested in the subspecialty and every other anesthesia resident does a fellowship.

Push yourself to learn as much as possible during residency. Ask to do the challenging cases, even if it means staying late. Get good at cardiac and pediatric cases. Become proficient at blocks. Work hard and expect to continue to work hard when you finish residency. If you do these things you will stand out and find a desirable job.

There are alot of anesthesiologists (especially new graduates) who expect to do nothing other than the most basic cases. The days of getting paid very generous for 40 hours/wk, 10 weeks vacation, no peds, no cardiac, no trauma, and little call are disappearing.
 
How can nurses do cardio anesthesia or neuro anesthesia without supervision? Do they have extra training after CRNA school?
You can't really define anesthetists (whether AA or CRNA) by the types of cases that they do. That's generally up to the individual practice and medical staff policies, usually through the credentialing process. That same process applies to physicians. Most docs essentially have an unrestricted license to practice in a given state. That's why dermatologists can claim to be "cosmetic surgeons" and why family practice guys can hang out a "pain management" shingle. However, in a hospital, you have to be credentialed for each procedure you do - if you're not credentialed, you can't do it.

So - to answer your questions - AA's of course are always working with medical direction, regardless of whether they're doing liver transplants or cataracts. CRNA's may be working under medical direction, medical supervision, or independently. The opt-out concept refers to Medicare billing practices only. CRNA's can work without anesthesiologists in every state - whether they can work with or without physician supervision is a matter decided by state law or regulation. The bigger/more complex the case, the more chance that there is an anesthesiologist involved at some level. Again, that's up to the individual hospital or practice. In some places, anesthesiologists do all the cases. In some places, anesthesiologists do all the big cases (hearts, neuro, etc.) But also in many places, both AA's and CRNA's are doing hearts, transplants, chest, neuro, complex peds, etc. But in the vast majority of those places (and of course all of them if involving an AA), an anesthesiologist is still running the show. Some of my online CRNA friends tell me they are doing these cases independently. I take that with a big grain of salt, and if they are, those situations are few and far between. Ask ANY surgeon doing hearts and neuro and major peds and transplants (and a lot of other types of procedures) if they would like to be doing their cases with NO anesthesiologist involved or available at any point. That answer would be universally NO. The CRNA's certainly don't agree with that statement, but surgeons strongly prefer that "peer to peer" relationship that comes from working with anesthesiologists - it's simply not going to be there when they're dealing exclusively with a nurse anesthetist.
 
I am one of the many 3rd yr medical students who browses this forum looking for insight into the future of anesthesia. I am highly interested in this field but like everyone else on here, I am worried about CRNA encroachment. I actually had a CRNA tell me the other day not to do anesthesia because she can do everything the MDs can. So is doing a fellowship the only way to maintain separation from these Midlevel anesthetists? Can CRNAs do neuro, or cardiac, or peds cases?

Thx
Ask your CRNA friend if she can supervise CRNAs.
 
You can't really define anesthetists (whether AA or CRNA) by the types of cases that they do. That's generally up to the individual practice and medical staff policies, usually through the credentialing process. That same process applies to physicians. Most docs essentially have an unrestricted license to practice in a given state. That's why dermatologists can claim to be "cosmetic surgeons" and why family practice guys can hang out a "pain management" shingle. However, in a hospital, you have to be credentialed for each procedure you do - if you're not credentialed, you can't do it.

So - to answer your questions - AA's of course are always working with medical direction, regardless of whether they're doing liver transplants or cataracts. CRNA's may be working under medical direction, medical supervision, or independently. The opt-out concept refers to Medicare billing practices only. CRNA's can work without anesthesiologists in every state - whether they can work with or without physician supervision is a matter decided by state law or regulation. The bigger/more complex the case, the more chance that there is an anesthesiologist involved at some level. Again, that's up to the individual hospital or practice. In some places, anesthesiologists do all the cases. In some places, anesthesiologists do all the big cases (hearts, neuro, etc.) But also in many places, both AA's and CRNA's are doing hearts, transplants, chest, neuro, complex peds, etc. But in the vast majority of those places (and of course all of them if involving an AA), an anesthesiologist is still running the show. Some of my online CRNA friends tell me they are doing these cases independently. I take that with a big grain of salt, and if they are, those situations are few and far between. Ask ANY surgeon doing hearts and neuro and major peds and transplants (and a lot of other types of procedures) if they would like to be doing their cases with NO anesthesiologist involved or available at any point. That answer would be universally NO. The CRNA's certainly don't agree with that statement, but surgeons strongly prefer that "peer to peer" relationship that comes from working with anesthesiologists - it's simply not going to be there when they're dealing exclusively with a nurse anesthetist.

So is an academic institution the only place to practice in the future? I feel like all community hospitals are full of CRNAs. All of this worries me. I love anesthesia but I don't want to spend my life having to prove I am 'better' (for lack of better words) than them
 
So is an academic institution the only place to practice in the future? I feel like all community hospitals are full of CRNAs. All of this worries me. I love anesthesia but I don't want to spend my life having to prove I am 'better' (for lack of better words) than them

You won't if you act like a doctor and pick the right practice. Both are necessary to avoid having to "prove" it. Some practices are lost causes that draw disproportionately weaker docs or bring out the worst in good docs.
 
So is an academic institution the only place to practice in the future? I feel like all community hospitals are full of CRNAs. All of this worries me. I love anesthesia but I don't want to spend my life having to prove I am 'better' (for lack of better words) than them
Academic hospitals are going the CRNA way, too. There aren't enough residents, and the profit is higher in the ACT model (or so they think).
 
I am one of the many 3rd yr medical students who browses this forum looking for insight into the future of anesthesia. I am highly interested in this field but like everyone else on here, I am worried about CRNA encroachment. I actually had a CRNA tell me the other day not to do anesthesia because she can do everything the MDs can. So is doing a fellowship the only way to maintain separation from these Midlevel anesthetists? Can CRNAs do neuro, or cardiac, or peds cases?

Thx

The more immediate concern, in the near future, will be the rise of accountable care organization models in healthcare which will have a significantly greater impact on your future livelihood as an anesthesiologist and whether it will still be a desirable field for you.

As some have mentioned, do a fellowship only if that field truly interests you; With that in mind though, I did have many colleagues who completed a fellowship solely to have a leg up against their competition in obtaining jobs in tight markets.
 
So basically, why would I go into anesthesia? Is it even worth it?
 
So basically, why would I go into anesthesia? Is it even worth it?

if you cant see yourself doing anything else.. then go for it.. I feel like every forum has their doom and gloom predictions mostly dealing with jobs and compensation. even surgery. at my institution the first asst PAs and NPs make 6 figures for 3 days a week of 6a-6p. physician extenders are pretty much in every field and asking for more and the way things or going theyll probably get more.

I really like anesthesia and the though of doing medicine or pathology doesnt appeal to me at all. From what I read, the worst part of anesthesia (no patient continuity) is one of the things I like the most.
 
Something to think about...every orthopedist and radiologist to join the staff at my hospital in the last 10 years has been fellowship trained. It is essentially mandatory for them if they want to practice in a desirable metropolitan area. And their residency is longer than ours.
 
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