Is affirmative action in the admission process about to end?
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yay! i was beginning to think no one understood me lolThis has a great double meaning👍
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1. I don't think AA is about African Americans. I think another poster listed a long list of all the groups included under disadvantaged minority groups.
2. Maybe I'm exaggerating but to me this is like asking why do minorities need to go to college? It's not about race it's about opportunity. You honestly can't see any benefits for society as a whole (not your suburb) to increasing the number of qualified, capable URM in medicine. People like to believe that everyone has an equal shot but it just isn't true. Before either side rushes to make judgments they should experience what it is like in both situations. Maybe you are ok with the alarmingly low amount of diversity in undergrad colleges & medical schools & education in general. If you can go through four years of school and make no minority friends or have minimal interactions than I feel bad for you. I can't think of one good reason why more african americans and other minorities shouldn't be physicians.
Also, I think when we compare stats you have to compare the sample size for the two groups. You are comparing the stats of only 1,000 minority students while the medians for non-urm students are a lot more
To be fair, most people are naturally going to type African Americans rather than listing or including Hispanics, Asians, etc. Most people don't mean anything by it.
i must admit i found some stuff in that first link interesting:
"[SIZE=-1]For example, Davidson and associates24 examined the medical practices of minorities who graduated from seven California medical schools and found that 53% of minority graduates were likely to serve in areas of shortage, whereas 26% of majority physicians served in areas of shortage. In another study analyzing data from a 1987 National Medical Expenditure survey of a noninstitutionalized U.S. population (n = 15,081), it was found that 14.4% of adult Americans identified a nonwhite physician as the source of their care.25 Minority medical graduates are four times more likely than whites to practice in underserved areas, according to the Association of American Medical Colleges.4 [/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]It has been reported that blacks, on average, do not perform as well on standardized tests as whites.26-30 A possible, if doubtful, inference from this is that blacks are not as intelligent as whites. However, such an inference masks facts about unequal employment and educational opportunities that are central to understanding the problematic test results; the problematic inference invites the reasoner to find an explanation in individual cognitive differences while ignoring the structural societal factors that differentially affect different races. One way to increase the validity of MCAT scores for ethnic and racial minorities lies in building the pipeline of underrepresented minority students through high school and college. In doing so, it is critical to note that cognitive ability testing has already badly [End Page 15] weakened this pipeline. Of particular concern is the choice of cognitive abilities deemed important enough to test. The MCAT is said to access thought processes, as well as knowledge of science, but the range of thought processes tested by the MCAT is small relative to the range identified by cognitive scientists. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Admission tests for medical school should measure the cognitive abilities that enable an individual to do well in school and the characteristics required of good physicians. What is needed is a conceptual model that links the various cognitive abilities needed for success in medical school to the skills and abilities needed to be a good physician. These cognitive abilities should be operationally defined as measurable characteristics relevant to the life experiences of members of racial and ethnic minorities as well as those of majority group members. Research is needed that identifies race-related factors that contribute to poor test performance that can be corrected. Potential factors for investigation include such variables as test anxiety, test wiseness, stereotypical threat, motivational differences, racial/ethnic identity, linguistic bias, and academic self-efficacy, to name only a few. Once this research is completed, operational models can be proposed for how one might formally address the problem. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Those who argue for merit-based selection make the assumption that the current science of merit measurement is objective and free from cultural bias. However, until social scientists reach some form of consensus regarding an adequate definition of constructs such as cognitive ability, intelligence, and scholastic achievement, tests designed to measure these characteristics will lack construct validity. Most standardized tests that measure the cognitive ability of medical school applicants emphasize the measurement of a relatively small number of faculties involving analytical problem solving, reading comprehension, and quantitative skills. However, other identified forms of intelligence such as creative problem solving, social skills, emotional intelligence, and integrative thinking are not currently assessed. Medical schools currently operate as if standardized tests measure whatever the test label says they measure and that what is being tested is measured adequately and fairly for all groups. To improve this system, in addition to standard measurements of the abilities that enable students to do well in school (reading, writing, and solving quantitative/scientific problems), ability testing for prospective medical students must also be linked to the likely quality of their performance as physicians. This requires rigorous analyses of what leads to success as a physician in all areas, from the research lab to the patient's bedside. Thorough-going job analysis can provide the basic information necessary for the development of additional selection criteria. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The wheels of social science will continue to turn, but they will never be free of political and social agendas. Affirmative action legislation has been interpreted and reinterpreted, testing the boundaries set by its original intent and substance. Through all of the turmoil, affirmative action policy remains an important legal tool for addressing some of the valued social goals of our culturally diverse society. Among these goals are training members of underrepresented minority groups as physicians and increasing the number of physicians providing community-oriented health care, goals that experience tells us are linked. [End Page 16]" [/SIZE]
I do not believe a black guy is any more "diverse" than two white guys are from one another.
i dont know how u missed the points of my post.........
"
Having a diverse physician workforce is a critical component in making health care available to those who need it most. The lack of diversity of medical students, coupled with ineffective cultural competency education, continues to produce training and treatment environments that are biased, intolerant and contributory to health disparities.
- Racial and ethnic minorities comprise 26% of the total population of the United States, yet only roughly 6% of practicing physicians are Latino, African American and Native American.*
- Under-represented minority (URM) faculty account for only about 4% of U.S. medical school faculty members, and approximately 20% of URM faculty is located at six schools-Howard University, Meharry Medical College, Morehouse School of Medicine, and the three Puerto Rican medical schools.*
- Black physicians were found to practice in areas where the proportion of Black residents was nearly five times as high as where other physicians practice. Likewise, Hispanic physicians worked in communities with twice the proportion of Hispanic residents when compared to their non-Hispanic colleagues.*
- Nearly half of patients seen by African American physicians and one-third of patients seen by Asian and Pacific Islander and Hispanic physicians are Medicaid or uninsured patients.*
- URM physicians are also more likely than their non-minority counterparts to conduct research to help reduce racial disparities in health care.*
I don't believe a black guy is more diverse than I am just because he's black. I come from a middle class family, I played soccer my whole life, played guitar in a band, have a masters degree in cell biology, go running every day, enjoy painting, love video games, don't like watching sports... so on and so forth. I bet you there isn't one other applicant exactly like me. Therefore, I add diversity.
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That's not fair, that's prejudiced.
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This is overlooking a number of historical and social issues that are important to the discussion at hand.
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I agree with you. But let me ask you this, why is it a problem if an institution seeks to create a diverse class?
Better yet, why is it a problem for public insitutions to consider ethnicity if they are supposed reflect the demographics of the state and address the problems of the local communities? A lack of diversity in the medical profession poses a great deal of problems.
Perhaps. I agree that I'm trying to simplify it. I really just don't believe the brains of various races are inherently different. That being said, why should any one have an advantage because of race? But then again, I'm white and as hard as I try to put myself in someone elses shoes it just isn't possible.
I think I've said everything I can so I'll conclude by stating that the advantage race may yield is not nearly enough to gain acceptance. Furthermore, my "disadvantage" certainly did not keep me out.
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Preach.
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It's not a question of different brains. AA is part of a larger effort to correct significant historical and current racism, in which particular populations have become trapped in cycles of poverty and disenfranchisement.
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It's a university. I'm sure they understand.
haha, no one said u dont add diversity. i dont think anyone can claim simply being of another race makes u diverse. how you've lived and experienced life makes u unique. there are a lot of things in life experiences that make you diverse, such as growing up in a certain culture.
ok now to my point. med schools are trying to increase racial, ethnic, and cultural diversity to meet the health disparities that occur between race groups. this serves a greater purpose in trying to lessen the burden of the entire us health system. data seems to suggest that urms are more likely to go back and work in communities that really need the most help- these communities that are mostly made up of minorities with serious health needs...
ok im done (for now)
later guys
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I agree, it's going to take some time
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1. African Americans are more likely to practice in areas with large amounts of minority patients (which are seriously underserved).
2. Culturally competent care
3. Minority patients receive sub-optimal care in the current system and suffer worse outcomes under physician care. It is hypothesized that this situation would improve under the care of more minority physicians.
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4. It enriches the education of the med school class by allowing students from different walks of life to share life experiences, perspectives, cultures, values etc.
wait, can current med students in adcoms weigh in on this??
i sooo want to be on an adcom one day.. id like to know exactly how things work in this crazy admissions game lol
i sooo want to be on an adcom one day.. id like to know exactly how things work in this crazy admissions game lol
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One word: culture. If you live in the U.S., you are faced with dealing with mingling among the various identities and races and it's impossible to study and know all of them. Why do we need more AA physicians? Because chances are they can understand the rationale and actions of black people better than others (white, hispanic, whatever) without passing judgment. Why? Culture. This doesn't apply to scripts, but to patients mental psyche, their trust and confidence with their doctor, their religious beliefs, etc. And it's not to say that a white guy CAN'T do all of these. But answer this question, how many do?
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I think that the question should be why aren't there already an abundance of African American physicians. Black people have been here since the birth of this country, so why are we so underrepresented? Everyone could have the answer to this question if they wanted it. The information is out there.
It's always a black vs white issue because for a long time blacks were the largest minority group in the country, and therefore the largest threat on lifestyle of the majority. And now we're the largest underrepresented minority group getting into med schools, and therefore the largest threat on the lifestyle of the majority. It's all a struggle for power.
We need to stop worrying about being accepted and liked, and just do what we have to do to survive in this world.
Some people need to look within themselves and realize that they are so scared of losing their place in this world as being superior to some others that they percieve as being lessor because without that then what would they be?
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And that's why we need diversity in medical schools and the profession. So that we are forced to share different perspectives and experiences. A textbook can only teach you so much about the ethnic experiences in our society, real life interactions teach you so much more.
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Man, there is a med student here on an adcom at a UC that specifically said... "Our institution does NOT practice affirmative action whatsoever. We take the law very seriously and do not consider race as a part of admissions."
Proof that not all top schools practice AA, and not all urm students at top schools needed AA to gain admission.
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Hi,
I'd like to put in my two cents, and I don't know if people made similar points to mine...5 pages of answers are A LOT. So I apologize if this is repetitive.
When I realized that minorities were no longer known as minorities but "URM's", I figured med schools had taken a different approach to the affirmative action thing...i.e. let's accept more african american/ hispanic/ etc doctors because there are very few of those and as a rule (correct me if I'm wrong) it's more likely for a hispanic person to want to go back to a traditionally hispanic neighborhood (because he'd theoretically share their culture and language) and serve the community. That makes sense to me. Those are communities that are traditionally underserved, and if people of the same ethnicity want to go back and help out, then by all means, we need more of them. Then again, this is making the huge assumption that (and pardon me if this is un-p.c.) a Hispanic man who grew up in a poor, Hispanic neighborhood and has fought tooth and nail to get out of it will want to go back and work there. Not to mention the fact that it's no longer really feasible to assume that all Hispanics/ African Americans are put upon by virtue of their birth. I'm half-Hispanic and half-European, and my European side is FAR less wealthy than the Hispanic side, so you can argue that the "white" side is actually more disadvantaged for me. Also, I don't think that I'll ever work in an underserved community...mostly because I want to specialize and go into academic medicine. Nevertheless, if I have to enter an ethnicity into the application, I put down hispanic, or biracial. I'm South American, which I don't believe technically counts as a URM anyways (and that's also kind of interesting in and of itself).
Now, for the stats. I understand people's concern with the idea that URMs get special treatment and that their stats aren't considered as stringently. I think though that people are assuming this because everyone is so up in arms about it. Just look at MDapplicants comments! If you see a Caucasian kid with a 3.0 get into a great school, you read comments by people asking what extracurriculars he had, what recommendations, what he did at interviews, what he talked about on his PS...etc. However, you see a URM with the same stats get into the same schools and you assume it's cause he's a URM. I'm sorry to put flaahless on the spot, but I remember your case specifically for the thread about "inspiring stories". You talked about your great post-grad gpa, your great ec's, your great attitude during interviews...and yet someone immediately asked if you were a URM. Come on people! Stop being so paranoid! We all know that there are A LOT of things beyond our control when it comes to admissions. People who've had interesting/ sad lives can be considered more highly than the kid who's always had it easy and got a 4.0. Do you feel that's unfair? Knowing someone in the admissions committee, having big-shot doctor parents, hell even how pretty you are at your interview can make a difference. The truth is that there are SO many more qualified applicants than spots that EVERYTHING counts. And if a med school wants a relatively heterogeneous student body, they have to make decisions based on things that we don't necessarily want to be judged on. It's just the way it is.
Anyways, sorry for the long, rambling post. I don't want to work 🙂
I'd like to put in my two cents, and I don't know if people made similar points to mine...5 pages of answers are A LOT. So I apologize if this is repetitive.
When I realized that minorities were no longer known as minorities but "URM's", I figured med schools had taken a different approach to the affirmative action thing...i.e. let's accept more african american/ hispanic/ etc doctors because there are very few of those and as a rule (correct me if I'm wrong) it's more likely for a hispanic person to want to go back to a traditionally hispanic neighborhood (because he'd theoretically share their culture and language) and serve the community. That makes sense to me. Those are communities that are traditionally underserved, and if people of the same ethnicity want to go back and help out, then by all means, we need more of them. Then again, this is making the huge assumption that (and pardon me if this is un-p.c.) a Hispanic man who grew up in a poor, Hispanic neighborhood and has fought tooth and nail to get out of it will want to go back and work there. Not to mention the fact that it's no longer really feasible to assume that all Hispanics/ African Americans are put upon by virtue of their birth. I'm half-Hispanic and half-European, and my European side is FAR less wealthy than the Hispanic side, so you can argue that the "white" side is actually more disadvantaged for me. Also, I don't think that I'll ever work in an underserved community...mostly because I want to specialize and go into academic medicine. Nevertheless, if I have to enter an ethnicity into the application, I put down hispanic, or biracial. I'm South American, which I don't believe technically counts as a URM anyways (and that's also kind of interesting in and of itself).
Now, for the stats. I understand people's concern with the idea that URMs get special treatment and that their stats aren't considered as stringently. I think though that people are assuming this because everyone is so up in arms about it. Just look at MDapplicants comments! If you see a Caucasian kid with a 3.0 get into a great school, you read comments by people asking what extracurriculars he had, what recommendations, what he did at interviews, what he talked about on his PS...etc. However, you see a URM with the same stats get into the same schools and you assume it's cause he's a URM. I'm sorry to put flaahless on the spot, but I remember your case specifically for the thread about "inspiring stories". You talked about your great post-grad gpa, your great ec's, your great attitude during interviews...and yet someone immediately asked if you were a URM. Come on people! Stop being so paranoid! We all know that there are A LOT of things beyond our control when it comes to admissions. People who've had interesting/ sad lives can be considered more highly than the kid who's always had it easy and got a 4.0. Do you feel that's unfair? Knowing someone in the admissions committee, having big-shot doctor parents, hell even how pretty you are at your interview can make a difference. The truth is that there are SO many more qualified applicants than spots that EVERYTHING counts. And if a med school wants a relatively heterogeneous student body, they have to make decisions based on things that we don't necessarily want to be judged on. It's just the way it is.
Anyways, sorry for the long, rambling post. I don't want to work 🙂
Well I just finished reading this whole thread while at work. And now i want to get in on it 😀
I'll just address some things that caught my attention:
1. People have been talking about how AA discussions always lead to white vs black. Well as an East Asian, I want to throw my race into this.
For some reason, East Asians don't seem to be included in AA discussions. Why? Because we are not considered to be "underrepresented" in the medical field.
But Flaahless mentioned in one of his earlier posts that the purpose of AA is for the government to counter oppression:
If that is the case, why are not all minorities that have been oppressed included in AA? Sure, blacks have been oppressed, along with white woman, disabled, etc. But were not Asians also oppressed? How come we become excluded in AA?
I grew up in large city, have parents who had to struggle to make it in a foreign country, attended public school my whole life, and had "struggles and obstacles". I'm not considered a minority for educational institutions, jobs, etc. The only place I am considered a minority is on the country's census.
2. This next statement is not to provoke a flame war or anything, but really just to give an opinion. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong:
Stats show that URMs are more likely to return to underserved areas as physicians. This seems to be a reason people have been giving to support the need for more URMs in medicine. However, I want to just throw in a thought. STATISTCALLY, it has been stated that URMs have lower numbers in regard to GPA and MCAT. If this resulted in low grades in medical school and low Board scores (even if the student passes), could this not result in these physicians taking less competitive positions at underserved hospitals and clinics that may also be less competitive? Again, this is hypothetical and I don't even know if underserved hospitals are less competitive or if low GPA and MCAT correlates with low board scores (anyone have data?).
3. People have also argued the need for diversity in medical schools, and other institutions as well. I fully agree with this, but let me ask, are not most of our peers just "American"? What is black culture? What is Asian culture? The lines separating these are very thin these days and will virtually diminish in the future.
There are indeed people who are very much connected to their culture and these people are necessary to create diversity. However, in our generation, there is a rapidly decreasing amount of people who can even speak the language of their ethnic origin. This loss of culture is even more evident in families that have been in the U.S for more than one generation.
Also, in these days, how can one argue that culture is defined by the color of someone's skin? Although anecdotes may not paint the whole picture, I think most people can relate to these: I have an Asian friend who was born in Asia, but raised in South America. He embraces South American culture and speaks the language as well as any native. I also have a black friend who grew up in a predominately upper-middle class white neighborhood and has no idea of his roots.
If these two friends of mine became physicians, which ethnic group of patients would they be able to relate to?
Culture is not defined by what you look like. And in regard to medical school admissions, I don't see why the color of your skin determines the cultural addition you can make to the school's diversity. Chances are fellow classmates are not going to get much information on "black culture" from my black friend and "asian culture" from my asian friend. So where's the logic in stating that different colored people are needed for diversity. I guess it looks good on posters and stuff, but that's about it.
I had a bunch of other stuff to say but I can't remember them all now. I guess I'll just pitch in my opinions as this thread moves along.
I'll just address some things that caught my attention:
1. People have been talking about how AA discussions always lead to white vs black. Well as an East Asian, I want to throw my race into this.
For some reason, East Asians don't seem to be included in AA discussions. Why? Because we are not considered to be "underrepresented" in the medical field.
But Flaahless mentioned in one of his earlier posts that the purpose of AA is for the government to counter oppression:
If that is the case, why are not all minorities that have been oppressed included in AA? Sure, blacks have been oppressed, along with white woman, disabled, etc. But were not Asians also oppressed? How come we become excluded in AA?
I grew up in large city, have parents who had to struggle to make it in a foreign country, attended public school my whole life, and had "struggles and obstacles". I'm not considered a minority for educational institutions, jobs, etc. The only place I am considered a minority is on the country's census.
2. This next statement is not to provoke a flame war or anything, but really just to give an opinion. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong:
Stats show that URMs are more likely to return to underserved areas as physicians. This seems to be a reason people have been giving to support the need for more URMs in medicine. However, I want to just throw in a thought. STATISTCALLY, it has been stated that URMs have lower numbers in regard to GPA and MCAT. If this resulted in low grades in medical school and low Board scores (even if the student passes), could this not result in these physicians taking less competitive positions at underserved hospitals and clinics that may also be less competitive? Again, this is hypothetical and I don't even know if underserved hospitals are less competitive or if low GPA and MCAT correlates with low board scores (anyone have data?).
3. People have also argued the need for diversity in medical schools, and other institutions as well. I fully agree with this, but let me ask, are not most of our peers just "American"? What is black culture? What is Asian culture? The lines separating these are very thin these days and will virtually diminish in the future.
There are indeed people who are very much connected to their culture and these people are necessary to create diversity. However, in our generation, there is a rapidly decreasing amount of people who can even speak the language of their ethnic origin. This loss of culture is even more evident in families that have been in the U.S for more than one generation.
Also, in these days, how can one argue that culture is defined by the color of someone's skin? Although anecdotes may not paint the whole picture, I think most people can relate to these: I have an Asian friend who was born in Asia, but raised in South America. He embraces South American culture and speaks the language as well as any native. I also have a black friend who grew up in a predominately upper-middle class white neighborhood and has no idea of his roots.
If these two friends of mine became physicians, which ethnic group of patients would they be able to relate to?
Culture is not defined by what you look like. And in regard to medical school admissions, I don't see why the color of your skin determines the cultural addition you can make to the school's diversity. Chances are fellow classmates are not going to get much information on "black culture" from my black friend and "asian culture" from my asian friend. So where's the logic in stating that different colored people are needed for diversity. I guess it looks good on posters and stuff, but that's about it.
I had a bunch of other stuff to say but I can't remember them all now. I guess I'll just pitch in my opinions as this thread moves along.
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That's not true. Hmong, Cambodians and Laotians are considered urm in CA and are heavily recruited by colleges and universities. Long Beach, in particular, has the densest population of Cambodians and we [CSULB] EAGERLY seek to enroll students of Cambodian descent.
About 7% of Hmong/Mong have a bachelor's degree or higher.
Almost 40% of Hmong/Mong families are under the poverty level.
wikipedia
If that's not urm, then I don't know what urm is.
I don't know your ethnicity, but if you are underrepresented in medicine then AA will apply to you. The problem is that Asian activist groups have not been as active or adamant in establishing AA programs as African Americans. Not many people know about the urm status Asian ethnicities ie: hmong, cambodians and laotians, unless you work with AA policy and college admissions. Instead, people hear the nebulous term "Asian" and assume they are all overrepresented. That's not the case.
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You should go into sociology. You would love it.
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Best quote of the thread.
Calm down kiddies, the "if I can't get it no one can!" attitude floating around in here is sad for rising medical professionals. If you are borderline, you can't blame other people. If you prepared yourself well enough, you will get into medical school. You will be a doctor. You will continue your life of privilege, and in 12-15 years from now when you are driving your benz you won't even be able to remember why you were so passionately against AA.
AA has bigger goals than most of you cant probably process at this point in your self-promoting lives. But I hope at some point you will see the bigger picture for what it really is.
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It is because of threads and comments like this and the other ignorant ones in this thread that I stay away from the pre-allo forum. I seriously hope we don't end attending the same med school, or working in the same hospital.
Yes, but not for Koreans, Japanese, Chinese.
I do acknowledge that Asians are not as active in pushing for and establishing AA programs.
My statement was in response to your post earlier about how the reason for AA is to counter the oppressive nature of an unfair government and that all groups that are oppressed benefit from it.
Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese and other Asians have all been oppressed throughout their existence in the United States. I grew up with racism and prejudice also, as did blacks, white women, disabled, etc.
My point is, if the true reason for AA is indeed what you stated, it doesnt make sense that not all oppressed groups have benefited from AA.
Thus, the reason for AA can not be to counter an unfair government.
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Ignorant? Im not the one making these claims, the AAMC, university adcoms and other proponents of AA are making them. Im just repeating them. Don't shoot the messenger because you don't like the message.
"Without affirmative action, 80% fewer minorities would have been enrolled in U.S. medical schools in 1996, according to data released by the Association of American Medical Colleges.5"
"One year after affirmative action was challenged, the University of Texas Law School reduced the number of African Americans by enrolled 88%. Without affirmative action"
http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/journal_of_...6.1frazer.html
"previously unreleased data by the JBSE from the aamc shows that in a race-neutral admissions enviroment black enrollment at top medical schools may drop by 90%."
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2998877
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Are you talking about AA with regards to life or med admissions?
Anyways, many asian americans have benefitted from AA in life. Bill Lann Lee, assistant Attorney General for the Civil Rights div of US dept of justice did his undergrad at Yale through an affirmative action program. Google him.
"When affirmative action was first implemented in the early 1970s, Asian Americans benefitted from it in large numbers, as did Blacks, Hispanics/Latinos, American Indians and the group that has benefitted the most, White women. Since that time, Asian Americans have achieved notable successes in educational attainment, employment, and income -- so much so that Asians are frequently called the "model minority."
Exerpt taken from an article at Asian nation.org. It's a great article and I highly recommend that you read it. I think yo'u will find it interesting.
http://www.asian-nation.org/affirmative-action.shtml
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(sits back and waits for inevitable flame war)
I think that there were many great points made in this thread, especially from Ejay, Flaahless, and Twiig.
I have been told by many people in undergrad that I will get into medical school because I am Hispanic, and I have received "special" privileges because of my URM status. I have heard countless people complain that their high MCAT score is the same as some minority's low score.
It really bothers me when people assume that I will be successful because I am Hispanic, and not because I work just as hard as them.
I have also heard people say that my state medical school discriminates against white students. However, 70% of the class is white, so I don't get it.
I have been told by many people in undergrad that I will get into medical school because I am Hispanic, and I have received "special" privileges because of my URM status. I have heard countless people complain that their high MCAT score is the same as some minority's low score.
It really bothers me when people assume that I will be successful because I am Hispanic, and not because I work just as hard as them.
I have also heard people say that my state medical school discriminates against white students. However, 70% of the class is white, so I don't get it.
This was indeed a good article. Thanks.
But now I have to ask, why is it that "Asians are frequently called the "model minority." ?
Affirmative action took place for all races at the same time. But it is no longer for most Asians because they are not considered undrepresented anymore. I'm not trying to imply that one race is more intellectual than another, but in respect to the topic of this thread, how much longer must AA go on in order for "diversity" to be fully reached?
Also, I don't know the numbers, but when AA was used for Asians, were their stats lower than the over-represented whites? If the numbers were the same as other applicants and Asians were merely just being discrimated against before AA, then the use of AA for Asians was different from the way it is being used today.
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Dawg this is the last time I'm going to address your ridiculous posts.
Your link doesn't work so... address this for me.
1. The article is outdated.
2. Define minorities. Are we talking urms, ethnic minorities, or all minorities?
3. If ~20 of urm students are at HBCUs or puerto rican schools, then that means the other 80% that wouldn't have enrolled without AA, ALL beneffitted from AA. So virtually every "minority" not at an HBCU or puerto rican school benefitted. Get real.
4. Also, what is the extent of the AA benefit? Is it a major determining factor, or is it a tie breaker type of thing?
Is the decrease attributed solely to AA? Were there social, political or cultural changes that could have influenced that statistic? How many students were at UTLaw, 10 or 100?
1. The artcile is outdated.
2. The article is really crappy. Take this quote for instance:
"The Black students make up a very large 8.6 percent of the students at these [Top 10 med schools]. This is particularly impressive considering that blacks make up a much smaller percentage of undergraduate college students who major in the scientific disciplines such as biology that are required by medical students."
1. 8.6% is not very large. I smell bias.
2. Science majors are NOT required by prospective medical students.
3. A 90% decrease huh? So out of the 480 students that were at those institutions, roughly 53 would have gotten in without AA? Seems a bit inflated to me.
The exerpt of the article you posted is highly biased, inaccurate and misleading. But please, continue to post this highly biased information and tout is as fact. It makes my argument easier.
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Assimilation. Asian Americans have assimilated into the dominant anglocentric idealogy of the US, moreso than the other major ethnic groups, African American, Hispanics and Native Americans.
Asian Americans were not always seen as the model minority. They used to be seen as sly pimps that threatened to steal the white man's woman. There were politcal cartoons of caucasian women setting pies to bake on the window seel while an evil looking "asian" man would walk up and sweep her off her feet. Now, asian americans are caricatured as math geniuses with obsessive parents and a ton of familial pressure. Why the change? That'll take a book to explain.
As long as there are oppressive forces, they must be counteracted. AA was supposed to last 25 years, well, America is not as race, gender, or sexually blind as we should be. So, it will probably last a bit longer, that is, until lobbyists successfully scare people into abolishing AA policies. (I know my bias is evident, sorry)
I don't know the numbers either, but AA is not so much about numbers but rather opportunity.
"For example, many private universities use "legacy clauses" in which the children of their alumni are almost always admitted, many of whom would not have been admitted otherwise. The problem is that legacy clauses almost always favor Whites because a generation ago, there were very few racial/ethnic minorities attending these elite schools. As research showed, the widespread use of these legacy admissions is what's responsible for the artificially low admission rates for Asian Americans."
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aw man, ive been reading this thing and dayuumm, its amazing what ppl are capable of saying on an ANONYMOUS online forum!
ive been involved in many, many, MANY debates about affirmative action and never have i heard such prespsterorous nor cogent arguments for AND against AA in my life...lol!
ill be the first to say this, i support AA. but, its hard for me to say whether or not i would support AA if werent a URM. ive tried hard to put myself in the shoes of a white person who sees his best friend from elementary school, whom hes known all his life, who has lower grades/test scores get swept away by colleges while he is accepted to only his state school (for undergrad...oh and this is purely hypothetical)....and i can honestly see why there is resentment toward those who they presume recieved an advantage in this admissions game solely based on their race...
infact, ive always had a kind of admiration for those "bleeding liberal" white ppl who stand for the rights of oppressed groups, e.g. afroamericans, bcuz i think it would be so much easier to just pretend like racism is gone and everything is okay and everyone is being and should be treated equal...when i hear some ppl support affirmative action and i see that they are truly trying their best to come to grips with it, it makes me smile a lil..
at the same time, i think there is a so much history that our country has with the issue of race that is so easily being ignored and is often not taken into consideration when the AA discussion arises....my dad pointed out to me when i was very, very young that, "Son, you realize that your math teacher probably went to school in a time when she was told that you are innately inferior to your classmates and you should therefore be segregrated from them?"...thanks to him, this always plays in my mind everytime i meet a white person over the age of 50, nah fuk, over the age of 40...shiit, racism was bad as hell in the 70's even, so ill change that to 35! anyway, this mindset is something that does not just change over night (10-20 years) relatively speaking, youre childhood does not just disappear from your memory
however, most ppl rite now are not concerned with our countrys history and or past, infact, i would go so far as to say that a physician does not need to know or care about this to be a great physician...why should a radiologist in Minnesota care if there are enough black ppl in his med school class? will it prevent him from being a good radiologist? my logos says no, bur my pathos says "yes ofcourse he should! this is america the beautiful where every1 is and should be treated equally and we should all care about and for each other"
now like i said, i support AA fully and wholly....but, at the risk of suffering a blistering jeremiad from 'flaahless', i will go ahead and say that i think it is fair to assume that, were it not for AA, there would not be nearly as many blks, today, in med skool...the numbers really dont lie, and it is sad...i dont know why blk ppl perform more poorly on standardized test in our generation....ppl can theorize all they want, socioeconomic, sterotype-threat blah blah blah but it is all conjecture....i just know tooooo many blk ppl who just dont seem to do as well on standardized test as the ppl with whom they grew up their entire life...and i grew up in an upper-middle class neighborhood with those blk ppl who are of equal or greater socioeconomic status as their white friends...take the same prep courses but jus dont perform and it baffles me....never more so than this whole MCAT business, its frustrating....the MCAT is a flawed exam...it can be coached and prepped for and ppl who have greater access to these materials will perform better...hell, ppl who can devote 7hrs a day of study, even without a prep course, will do better...not everybody can afford this liberty...unfortunately the MCAT is the most objective measure we have rite now as means to discriminate candidates for med school...everything else (including gpa) is much more subjective...therefore, the MCAT does and should play an important role in the admissions process...considering how much lower blk ppl are scoring than white ppl, then it is CRAZY to say that the numbers wouldnt change if AA was removed...i mean look at UCberkely for goodnesssakes! so, yes, for the time being, AA is neccesary to get a good amount of Afr-Am into med skool....ther are ofcourse AA who would be able to get into med skool with out AA...i, for instance, would like to believe that my numbers would get me into med school regardless....but the truth is, there arent many of us.....hopefully in the next 60-70 (not 25-30) this will not be the case...but honestly...i HIGHLY doubt it 🙁
ive been involved in many, many, MANY debates about affirmative action and never have i heard such prespsterorous nor cogent arguments for AND against AA in my life...lol!
ill be the first to say this, i support AA. but, its hard for me to say whether or not i would support AA if werent a URM. ive tried hard to put myself in the shoes of a white person who sees his best friend from elementary school, whom hes known all his life, who has lower grades/test scores get swept away by colleges while he is accepted to only his state school (for undergrad...oh and this is purely hypothetical)....and i can honestly see why there is resentment toward those who they presume recieved an advantage in this admissions game solely based on their race...
infact, ive always had a kind of admiration for those "bleeding liberal" white ppl who stand for the rights of oppressed groups, e.g. afroamericans, bcuz i think it would be so much easier to just pretend like racism is gone and everything is okay and everyone is being and should be treated equal...when i hear some ppl support affirmative action and i see that they are truly trying their best to come to grips with it, it makes me smile a lil..
at the same time, i think there is a so much history that our country has with the issue of race that is so easily being ignored and is often not taken into consideration when the AA discussion arises....my dad pointed out to me when i was very, very young that, "Son, you realize that your math teacher probably went to school in a time when she was told that you are innately inferior to your classmates and you should therefore be segregrated from them?"...thanks to him, this always plays in my mind everytime i meet a white person over the age of 50, nah fuk, over the age of 40...shiit, racism was bad as hell in the 70's even, so ill change that to 35! anyway, this mindset is something that does not just change over night (10-20 years) relatively speaking, youre childhood does not just disappear from your memory
however, most ppl rite now are not concerned with our countrys history and or past, infact, i would go so far as to say that a physician does not need to know or care about this to be a great physician...why should a radiologist in Minnesota care if there are enough black ppl in his med school class? will it prevent him from being a good radiologist? my logos says no, bur my pathos says "yes ofcourse he should! this is america the beautiful where every1 is and should be treated equally and we should all care about and for each other"
now like i said, i support AA fully and wholly....but, at the risk of suffering a blistering jeremiad from 'flaahless', i will go ahead and say that i think it is fair to assume that, were it not for AA, there would not be nearly as many blks, today, in med skool...the numbers really dont lie, and it is sad...i dont know why blk ppl perform more poorly on standardized test in our generation....ppl can theorize all they want, socioeconomic, sterotype-threat blah blah blah but it is all conjecture....i just know tooooo many blk ppl who just dont seem to do as well on standardized test as the ppl with whom they grew up their entire life...and i grew up in an upper-middle class neighborhood with those blk ppl who are of equal or greater socioeconomic status as their white friends...take the same prep courses but jus dont perform and it baffles me....never more so than this whole MCAT business, its frustrating....the MCAT is a flawed exam...it can be coached and prepped for and ppl who have greater access to these materials will perform better...hell, ppl who can devote 7hrs a day of study, even without a prep course, will do better...not everybody can afford this liberty...unfortunately the MCAT is the most objective measure we have rite now as means to discriminate candidates for med school...everything else (including gpa) is much more subjective...therefore, the MCAT does and should play an important role in the admissions process...considering how much lower blk ppl are scoring than white ppl, then it is CRAZY to say that the numbers wouldnt change if AA was removed...i mean look at UCberkely for goodnesssakes! so, yes, for the time being, AA is neccesary to get a good amount of Afr-Am into med skool....ther are ofcourse AA who would be able to get into med skool with out AA...i, for instance, would like to believe that my numbers would get me into med school regardless....but the truth is, there arent many of us.....hopefully in the next 60-70 (not 25-30) this will not be the case...but honestly...i HIGHLY doubt it 🙁
If you're conservative at 20 you have no heart.
If you're liberal at 40 you have no brains.
If you're liberal at 40 you have no brains.
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\
by the way, your stat was of black applicants in 05
numbers are on the rise.. they'll get better each year
haha, my numbers wont be that low when i apply in 3 years
:wink:
lmao thats the mindset my mans! thats the same **** i was sayin 3 years ago...4.0, 40 no questions...granted ive fallen sumwat short of these goals (moreso, mcat wise 🙄) that mindset is wat got me thur!
oh, and incidentally, sum bytch (well, my frend, but shes annoying as ****) jus called me to ask how i did on my mcats....i said i did well...then she was like, in an entirely jokingly manner, *oh well, it doesnt matter, ull get in neway cuz ur black hahahaha*....do you know how many times ive heard this in the past month! at least 5 times! and coming from the same ppl WHO I TA'ed AS STUDENTS IN F*CKING ORGO! i beat the **** out of them in EVERY class, and yet, they still got the balls to make jokes like that...and, in all other respects, they are my friends, and theyll make jokes like these in public and i dont feel like turning into the angry black man (tho, i have done that a couple times) i lost enuff frends in hs for their smart comments when i started getting money thrown in my face for undergrad so i learned my lesson...now i jus come back with, although less "painful" retort about their parents being big fat white racist pigs...but this doesn usually elict much laughter...and i still look like the angry blk guy, even if i say it totally in jest...UGH! wat to do wat to do!?
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This should work:
http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/journal_of_health_care_for_the_poor_and_underserved/v016/16.1frazer.html
Also, for more details, go to page 49 of the below link where it says "number of acceptances under no affirmative action scenario"- For blacks its 288 (vs 1230 actual acceptances)
http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrief.pdf
The crux of this amicus brief is that medical schools need to use racial preferences in admissions because without it there would be hardly any URMs in med school. And its signed by most major medical academic organization. So this isnt some bitter racist propaganda.
I dont get why some on this site are so offended by the idea that without racial preferences in med school admission, black and urm enrollment would decrease dramatically. This is actually the argument put forth by those who support AA.
Also, while its true that these studies may have flaws, as do all studies, what makes you think that your beliefs are correct?
I have seen you attempt to pick apart every study and link out there, but at the end of the day all you have presented to support your side are blind assertions. What exactly makes you so certain that the vast majority of blacks wouldnt be rejected in race neutral admissions? Flawed or not, I have presented a mountain of evidence, stats, links and studies. You have havent present any evidence at all supporting your claim. Instead of trying to nitpick every study to death, why dont you just present your own case.
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I'm glad you did well but don't fall into the trap of feeling that you have to prove yourself. . Whether you get a 25 or a 35 there will always be those individuals that believe your ethnicity was the single most determining factor for your success. Just do you, and it seems you've done well to get to this point. Kudos
I've had 1 student say that too me at my undergrad and I didn't even know her that well. Most people that know me expected me to do big things and attribute my success to other attributes about me. Life experiences, LORs, personality and smile. Don't underestimate the importance of a smile forreal.
And I feel your sentiments on being the angry black man, but still, I say do you. If you feel the need to respond then do it, if they label you as the angry black man, eff em.
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