is columbia really that good?

[JRogoff]

....Avin, to determine the # of students who specialize, you have to look at more than the previous years grads. A very high percentage of people in specialties do a GPR first. There are lots of Columbia grads who do a one year GPR, then go on to specialize. Their actual specialization percentages are much higher than you suggest because of this.....

Good point

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[freedyx3]

Ok lets just put it this way,

Going to a great clinical school (ie temple) doesn't mean you'll be a great clinician, and going to a great academic school (ie columbia) doesn't mean you'll be able to specialize. But in either case it does help. This idea is pretty obvious to just about everyone, but it appears that Avin thinks he's the only one who understands this idea and its his job to hammer that point again and again and again and again.

 

[Doggie]

Alright bud......goto DentalTown and tell all those dentists who did not goto a school with a biomedical curriculm that they shouldnt be dentists because they didnt learn about the pancreas.

Also, ask your dentists what is more important. Clinical teachings and constantly using your hands, or biomedical training. From the dentists Ive talked to.....the former.

You've made it almost too easy for me to point out the fallacies of your post. I can go on and on and explain to you, a predent, as to why it is so important to treat the person as a whole rather than a set of teeth......but then again, I'd just be boasting about my Calvin Klein degree and not my eduational training at a biomedical dental school, right?

Props to you for deciding against Columbia.....or rather, Columbia deciding against you.

 

[UBTom]

A very high percentage of people in specialties do a GPR first. There are lots of Columbia grads who do a one year GPR, then go on to specialize. Their actual specialization percentages are much higher than you suggest because of this.

Actually, no..

All that says about Columbia graduates is that they would not mind sticking it out for one or two extra years to bolster their PASS application to get into a specialty PG program. This is analogous to pre-dents who got rejected on their first AADSAS attempt and decided go into post-bac or masters programs to bolster their grades before re-applying to dental school.

It does not mean that just because you graduated from Columbia and did an AEGD or GPR stint that you are guaranteed a spot in a specialty program. Shoot, you can also do a GPR/AEGD if you attended Howard or Meharry and have as good a chance as the Columbia grad in getting into a specialty program provided the other aspects of your application pass muster (GPA, NBDEs, etc.)

That's why specialization rate is always definied as the number of students going DIRECTLY into a PG specialty program after graduating with their DDS/DMD.

Thank you for the input, but I am well aware what degree the school I am attending awards.

Good for you! If you attend Columbia and they award the DDS degree, not sure why you dragged the semantics of the DMD degree into the discussion. I agree though that biomed ed is an integral part of dental education, but I disagree that Ivy League schools are the only ones doing this. If they are the only ones doing this, then 90% of all dental students would fail their NBDEs!

 

[Acer4312]

avingupta,

Let's take a ride on the logic train, shall we? You maintain that the only objective way to judge a school is by statistics, yet you scoff when someone tells you about high board scores at Columbia. Also, according to YOUR data, Columbia places TWICE the percentage of students in specialty programs compared to other schools. I fail to see how that is insignificant. The fact that you see this as the "final nail in the coffin" shows that you seriously need to consider some stats courses. So basically, your entire argument rests on A) your subjective conversations with Columbia students (though for some reason you ignore the opinions on this board that oppose your obsessive argument), and B) a phone conversation between a superficial relative and a man in Ohio you never met. Not exactly solid ground.

 

[dentalchica]

anyone in favor of starting the "avin has no freakin idea what hes talking about thread"?? hahhaha...

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Alright...now we got some life on the forum! Once again...here we go...ALL ABOARD THE LOGIC TRAIN:

All that says about Columbia graduates is that they would not mind sticking it out for one or two extra years to bolster their PASS application to get into a specialty PG program. It does not mean that just because you graduated from Columbia and did an AEGD or GPR stint that you are guaranteed a spot in a specialty program.

You can also do a GPR/AEGD if you attended Howard or Meharry and have as good a chance as the Columbia grad in getting into a specialty program provided the other aspects of your application pass muster (GPA, NBDEs, etc.)

That's why specialization rate is always definied as the number of students going DIRECTLY into a PG specialty program after graduating with their DDS/DMD.

Damn Tom, you beat me too it! Anyways, well said.

avingupta,

Let's take a ride on the logic train, shall we? You maintain that the only objective way to judge a school is by statistics, yet you scoff when someone tells you about high board scores at Columbia. Also, according to YOUR data, Columbia places TWICE the percentage of students in specialty programs compared to other schools. I fail to see how that is insignificant. The fact that you see this as the "final nail in the coffin" shows that you seriously need to consider some stats courses. So basically, your entire argument rests on A) your subjective conversations with Columbia students (though for some reason you ignore the opinions on this board that oppose your obsessive argument), and B) a phone conversation between a superficial relative and a man in Ohio you never met. Not exactly solid ground.

Alright Acer...If you read my earlier post, I said that board scores dont mean jack if you are not gonna specialize. So by Columbia having higher board scores does tell me that a Columbia student will have a slight advantage when applying to a speciality program and statistics show this (35% Columbia vs. 20% Tufts), however people dont look at the other side of the story. The other 65% of those Columbia students who didnt get into a speciality right away have NO choice but to go into a residency, whereas the other 80% of Tufts who didnt go into a specialty right away have many choices, because of their strong clinical education. This has always been my original point rebutting Freddy's claim that:

I know personally I picked the school that would give me the most number of options after I grad, and personally I thought it was columbia.

This is the common misconception that people have about Columbia and all I am trying to do is show the entire picture. And just because you get a slight advantage (and I emphasize slight) to specialize, no one knows as a predent if they want to speicialize or not, and by going to Columbia, you for some reason have already set a path that you are unsure of, whereas at other schools, you have many paths to follow....Dont believe the Columbia rhetoric. Im alone on this and everyone has ganged up on me, but I dont care, cause Im trying to show predents out there the realities of each of the schools I know of....Flame me all you want.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

anyone in favor of starting the "avin has no freakin idea what hes talking about thread"?? hahhaha

I dont know dentalchica....a few posts back, you were making some strong assumptions about the NDBE Part II exams, and that was obviously false so your credibility got shot down. So tell me....how come I have no "freakin idea" and you do?

 

[KDBuff]

It does not mean that just because you graduated from Columbia and did an AEGD or GPR stint that you are guaranteed a spot in a specialty program. Shoot, you can also do a GPR/AEGD if you attended Howard or Meharry and have as good a chance as the Columbia grad in getting into a specialty program provided the other aspects of your application pass muster (GPA, NBDEs, etc.)

QUOTE]

Obviously it's been settled you can specialize no matter where you go as long as all of the aspects of your aplication are good enough. I never said Columbia grads were guaranteed anything, all I said was that more of these individuals went on to do this. Thats just the same as saying you have as good a chance as specializing right out of school from anywhere. If your stats are good enough, you'll get in. Columbia just better prepares its students to do so, and therefore, more do. More Columbia grads are willing to do a year long GPR/AEGD because their applications are strong enough, and with additional training will obtain those spots. That can't necessarily be said ON AVERAGE for individuals at other schools. Anyways, I'm done with this. I know someone will try to twist my words around to try to prove their point, and I don't have the energy for it. This is like having an argument with 10 year olds.

 

[UBTom]

Columbia just better prepares its students to do so, and therefore, more do. More Columbia grads are willing to do a year long GPR/AEGD because their applications are strong enough, and with additional training will obtain those spots.

That's definitely not true.

The only thing that shows is Columbia grads tend have specialization as a desire/goal. It does NOT necessarily mean they are better-prepared than any other GPR/AEGD residents who got their DDS/DMD from other schools.

If you are well-prepared (or well-connected), you would not have been rejected (i.e. didn't match) on your first PASS application attempt in the first place and need to do a GPR in order to apply a second time.

If your pre-doc stats are borderline for specialty programs, doing a GPR will strengthen your second PASS attempt no matter which school you are from, be it Columbia or Creighton, Harvard or Howard.

Ask my classmate Griffin04. She's been through the PASS process and is in exactly that position (doing a GPR and reapplying to Ortho next year).

Anyways, I'm done with this. I know someone will try to twist my words around to try to prove their point, and I don't have the energy for it. This is like having an argument with 10 year olds.

Hope you don't mean me, because I haven't even resorted to name-calling yet. j/k

 

[speter33]

This is really stupid. You guys need to live your lives instead of having cock contests online. You'll all be dentists be happy with that. Chances are neither of you will go into ondo or ortho anyways so your discussion is extremelly pointless. So stop the silliness and be happy that you are future dentists. If you want to compete so bad go to the pre-allo forum.

 

[StarGirl]

i've been at columbia sdos for almost two years...but i am sure avingupta knows more about columbia than i do... (sense the sarcasm?)

all i know is i've made awsome friends here... i've learned so much about life, dentistry, med, people, various cultures and lifestyles... i wouldn't give that up for anything.

columbia

 

[Doggie]

i've been at columbia sdos for almost two years...but i am sure avingupta knows more about columbia than i do... (sense the sarcasm?)

all i know is i've made awsome friends here... i've learned so much about life, dentistry, med, people, various cultures and lifestyles... i wouldn't give that up for anything.

columbia

I havent learned jack at columbia!!!

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

i've been at columbia sdos for almost two years...but i am sure avingupta knows more about columbia than i do...

No Im pretty sure that hardcore statistics and senior students will know more than me and a biased 2nd year Columbian student such as yourself who probably hasnt entered clinics yet.

all i know is i've made awsome friends here... i've learned so much about life, dentistry, med, people, various cultures and lifestyles... i wouldn't give that up for anything.

columbia

So what? Is this unique to Columbia??...you can get this at any other school. It is the United States by the way.....country of all cultures. If you are gonna try and sell Columbia, try other ways. Now lets just let this thread die.

 

[StarGirl]

No Im pretty sure that hardcore statistics and senior students will know more than me and a biased 2nd year Columbian student such as yourself who probably hasnt entered clinics yet.



So what? Is this unique to Columbia??...you can get this at any other school. It is the United States by the way.....country of all cultures. If you are gonna try and sell Columbia, try other ways. Now lets just let this thread die.

actually i am not trying to sell columbia at all... i'm more than happy that you're not coming here...
no, i haven't had my own patient yet, but a PRE-DENT like YOU will certainly know more about our clinics than me... and the ONE 4th year you talked to is definately more knowledgable than ALL the 3rd, 4th yrs and alumni of SDOS that I know.
Doggie has experience the clinics and the didatics, yet you still try to find ways to belittle his words...

i can easily say a lot of things about your future school... i did a lot of research on that school since i applied late and they were the first school to grant me an interview and acceptance... but i will not since all i know is what someone has told me or what a website says... and have absolutely no experince at the school.

if you think that having been granted an interview and having done some research on-line about a school gives you all the knowlege about that school...well then I'm an expert at 10 schools vs your 6.


all i can say is there's no way to argue w/ ignorant people...because they'll always think they're right.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

actually i am not trying to sell columbia at all... i'm more than happy that you're not coming here...
no, i haven't had my own patient yet, but a PRE-DENT like YOU will certainly know more about our clinics than me... and the ONE 4th year you talked to is definately more knowledgable than ALL the 3rd, 4th yrs and alumni of SDOS that I know.
Doggie has experience the clinics and the didatics, yet you still try to find ways to belittle his words...

i can easily say a lot of things about your future school... i did a lot of research on that school since i applied late and they were the first school to grant me an interview and acceptance... but i will not since all i know is what someone has told me or what a website says... and have absolutely no experince at the school.

if you think that having been granted an interview and having done some research on-line about a school gives you all the knowlege about that school...well then I'm an expert at 10 schools vs your 6.


all i can say is there's no way to argue w/ ignorant people...because they'll always think they're right.

I dont think Im ignorant....like I said before....you can talk bad about my school all day and I wouldnt care.....but it depends on your sources. If your sources are only people you've talked to, well then its open for intrepretation...however, if you give me statistics..well go ahead, feel free.....this I cannot dispute.

Lets say you gave me official statistics that 75% of people walking in Temple's area die after 6pm (which is not true).....will I come on here and say....."No stargirl, its not right, cause I havent died....those statistics are garbage".....no i wouldnt dispute it. But when I give statistics proving that Columbia's claim to be the school of opportunities is a farce, then how can YOU dispute this, and discrediting this fact just because Im a predent?

Your right that the one 4th year and the people Ive talked to about Columbia dont necessarily know what they are talking about, but My argument has always been based on statistics, and people can take what they want from it. Predent, 2nd year, 4th year, dentist.....it doesnt matter what anyone says when you have credible statistics backing you up.

 

[StarGirl]

then can you find me stats on how many actually go to a speciality after 1 yr of GPR or AEGD??? or how many actually want to or choose to do that first to make sure that it's right for them? I have a friend that scored a 95 and is at the top of the 4th yr class and decided to apply for GPR only...
and how do you know that people at certain schools doesn't just have low match rates to GPRs and are forced to work w/o the extra yr in residency? i know people at UOP (and that school is as clinical as it gets) that did a gpr or aegd.... is it possible that maybe people decide they WANT to do a GPR?
columbia doesn't sell itself on anything... they give you the stats when you interview... it's up to those who are accepted to decide where they want to be...

 

[Woodsy]

Avin, you go from loving stargirl to having this entire argument with her hahahahah...

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

then can you find me stats on how many actually go to a speciality after 1 yr of GPR or AEGD??? or how many actually want to or choose to do that first to make sure that it's right for them? I have a friend that scored a 95 and is at the top of the 4th yr class and decided to apply for GPR only...
and how do you know that people at certain schools doesn't just have low match rates to GPRs and are forced to work w/o the extra yr in residency? i know people at UOP (and that school is as clinical as it gets) that did a gpr or aegd.... is it possible that maybe people decide they WANT to do a GPR?
columbia doesn't sell itself on anything... they give you the stats when you interview... it's up to those who are accepted to decide where they want to be...

Like UBTom.....a 4th year student active in ASDA stated that by going to a GPR as a gateway to a speciality is no way a statistic to be used, because once at the GPR level, the school you went to will play no difference. The statistics of people matching right into a speciality is the most important one.
Heck, if you are planning on doing a GPR right after you graduate, then who gives a $hit what school you goto. People goto Columbia cause they think it will get them into a speicality fast and easy so if you are gonna do a GPR anyways, then what advantage does Columbia give you??

and how do you know that people at certain schools doesn't just have low match rates to GPRs and are forced to work w/o the extra yr in residency?

Because to get into a GPR, you just need to be able to breathe and have a DMD/DDS degree regardless of which school you went to. Wow, looks like this stupid predent did his research! Keep on trying StarGirl.

i know people at UOP (and that school is as clinical as it gets) that did a gpr or aegd.... is it possible that maybe people decide they WANT to do a GPR?

OF course, people might WANT to do a GPR, but my point is that at Columbia you are FORCED to do a GPR.

 

[freedyx3]

OK Avin I'm going to put it real simple for you so you can understand,

You keep insisting on hardcore stats, and according to your own stats 15% of students specialize at temple and 35% do so at columbia, and you don't think this is a significant difference?

I have never seem someone who knows so little bout something be so biased against it. I wonder what the real reason is behind all your hostility???

 

[StarGirl]

woah wait a min! i know someone that was offered a job but decided they'll rather do a GPR and i know another person that is doing a GPR by choice even tho he's passed the boards already. Trust me, just because there's a good number of people that choose to do a GPR, it doesn't meant that they HAVE to.

Avi... i have a feeling you were either 1. rejected or 2. waitlisted. I remember asking you a while ago and you said you haven't heard from columbia... and usually you hear from us pretty soon after your interview...

oh well who cares what anyone thinks or says, i still say go to the school that fits you best.

 

[Doggie]

I have never seem someone who knows so little bout something be so biased against it. I wonder what the real reason is behind all your hostility???

Fred,
Think of it this way.........wouldnt you kick yourself upside the arse if u were granted an interview to a good school and still not get in?




As for Avin's comment about Columbia students being forced into GPR if they did not match..........I dont know where you got that info from......perhaps you need to stay away from smoking skunks or rolling J's. NO ONE in their right minds will hire a newly graduated dentist........REGARDLESS of where the student graduated from. (Unless of course if you have family connections like UBTom). Why do you think it's so freaking hard for an undergrad to perform any kinds of research. I dont care if the dental school is #1 in clinics.....everyone wants a person with some real world experience. You need to get your facts straight before forming these ridiculous conclusions. Leave the statistical analysis to people who actually know what they are talking about.

35% and 15% arent siginificantly different? What if your grades were 15% better, let alone 35%? Maybe you would have gotten into columbia then........

 

[UBTom]

NO ONE in their right minds will hire a newly graduated dentist........REGARDLESS of where the student graduated from. (Unless of course if you have family connections like UBTom).

Umm... That's not quite true.

Here it is straight from the ADA: http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/index.asp#graduates

"2002 Survey of Dental Graduates
The 2002 Survey of Dental Graduates report provides a detailed description of dentists graduating from dental school in 2001. It includes demographics, current primary and secondary occupations, practice, research, or administration area, and debt incurred while in school. The 2001 dental graduates are compared to graduates from the years 1997 to 2000. In the past five years, there has been a slight decline in the percentage of dental school graduates who were not in practice, looking for openings or waiting for boards after graduation (3.7% in 1995 to 2.3% in 2002). Nearly 70% of 2001 dental school graduates went into private practice after graduating, and 23.4% of these graduates owned their own practice. After graduating in 2001, 90.4% of dental school graduates had educational debt."


----------------------------

Basically, what that survey says is that half of all new dental graduates every year are able to find associateships.

It depends on personal confidence I think. If you are confident that your dental education has given you a solid foundation of clinical skills to build on, private practice is certainly a good option.

Personally, I feel confident enough to tackle most run-of-the-mill dental cases-- Heck, I'm surprised there are still people with unrestored caries in Western New York after the ridiculous numbers of restorations my class has placed. I've seen my sister and my dad work, and I feel I can do at least 60% of the stuff they do. The rest I can learn in the course of private practice.

Though I admit having connections would ease the transition-- If you have someone willing to teach you advanced techniques, it helps a lot. I'll learn stuff like implant surgery from my sister that's fer sure.

 

[freedyx3]

In MY opinion, I think going to columbia will equip me with the whole dental arsenal if you will. Even if that takes one extra year. What's one extra year worth in the lifetime of your career, basically next to nothing.

 

[UBTom]

In MY opinion, I think going to columbia will equip me with the whole dental arsenal if you will. Even if that takes one extra year. What's one extra year worth in the lifetime of your career, basically next to nothing.

Actually, no dental school will equip you with the "whole dental arsenal." Not Harvard, not Penn, not Columbia, not Buffalo, not Loma Linda, not Meharry.

When you finish dental school, you will have learned the basics of each discipline. Some advanced stuff you will learn in residency, but ask any dentist/specialist and they will all tell you that the VAST MAJORITY of advanced stuff you learn in private practice.

For example, I can guarantee that you will not learn to do much advanced techniques in perio surgery like bone grafts or guided tissue regeneration while you are a predoc at SDOS. Nor will you likely get to do any implant surgery there. Or surgical extractions of impacted 3rd molars, etc. And that's the sort of thing that will earn you the big bucks in private practice!

Now, some schools do go an extra mile to try to equip their grads with extra clinical skills-- For example, NYU grads will be certified to do Invisalign starting this year. For someone clinically-oriented like me, that's very cool.

Also, keep in mind your GPR residency will most likely NOT be at Columbia.

That said, Columbia has their own approach to dental education, and if it's fine with the ADA, it's fine with me. One gets the Wrath of Tom treatment only if there is some gross misconception being perpetuated, like how some pre-dents want to attend a school because they somehow think that just going there will guarantee them a spot in a post-grad Ortho program or some such patently-false elitist bullcrap.

Specialization is all about hard work and connections. My uncle who teaches Plastic Surgery at UT San Antonio's med school didn't simply match into Columbia's OMFS program by coasting through his four years at Harvard SDM-- He had no connections, and had to bust his ass to get top grades in his class. It's not the school he went to that got him matched into OMFS straight out of dental school; it's the hard work.
http://www.uthscsa.edu/surgery/surgery/fulltime.html (Look for Peter T.H. Wang for his credentials.)

 

[Doggie]

As long as nobody goes off with an elitist attitude about their school.

I'd prefer to call it school pride.

 

[gryffindor]

That said, Columbia has their own approach to dental education, and if it's fine with the ADA, it's fine with me. One gets the Wrath of Tom treatment only if there is some gross misconception being perpetuated, like how some pre-dents want to attend a school because they somehow think that just going there will guarantee them a spot in a post-grad Ortho program or some such patently-false elitist bullcrap.

LOL, Tom, you are too funny!


I can't believe how long this debate is. However, after sifting through countless "Am I gonna get in?" threads, this one is definitely more amusing.

 

[UBTom]

<---- Takes a bow.

I'll get off my soapbox now... We got that damn NERB review class tommorow morning which means I have to get up at 6:30 AM.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Once again, ALL ABOARD THE LOGIC TRAIN....

OK Avin I'm going to put it real simple for you so you can understand,

You keep insisting on hardcore stats, and according to your own stats 15% of students specialize at temple and 35% do so at columbia, and you don't think this is a significant difference?

I have never seem someone who knows so little bout something be so biased against it. I wonder what the real reason is behind all your hostility???

Actually, as I recall, I was making the comparison to Tufts at 20%, and I didnt think that was a big difference, but if you brought up the comparison with Temple, thats cool.

The fact that 15% of Temple grads specialize says nothing of the school, because people who goto Temple most likely want to become GPs. However, if they wish to become specialists, they still have the option, because Temple had a 70% match rate last year in specialities. That meant that 70% of the people who applied from Temple into a postgrad got in. Pretty damn good stats. However, like I said, most Temple grads will go right into associate/practice, cause the school initially tells you that they are a school for GPs, so they attract people interested in GP. And once you graduate from Temple, you can become a GP just like they said. HOwever, once you become more accustomed to the science of dentistry and find a particular speciality interesting you can still become a specialist. A large amount of options available at Temple or any other clinically oriented school.

Whereas at Columbia, they tell you to come there to be a specialist, but that just aint always the case as Ive shown for the last 6 pages of posts.

woah wait a min! i know someone that was offered a job but decided they'll rather do a GPR and i know another person that is doing a GPR by choice even tho he's passed the boards already. Trust me, just because there's a good number of people that choose to do a GPR, it doesn't meant that they HAVE to.

No one is holding a gun to someone's head saying you HAVE to do a GPR, but the reason they choose to do GPRs is because they are not confident of their actual dental skills, cause they havent gotten enough practice. Its clear logic and I dont know why school pride is getting in the way of understanding a simplistic argument. Dentistry requires the use of hands, and like anything else that uses your hands, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE. Be it dentistry, guitar, building models, its takes practice to get it right. Hence, the importance of clinical skills, which unfortunately, Columbia does not have.

As for Avin's comment about Columbia students being forced into GPR if they did not match..........I dont know where you got that info from......perhaps you need to stay away from smoking skunks or rolling J's. NO ONE in their right minds will hire a newly graduated dentist........REGARDLESS of where the student graduated from. (Unless of course if you have family connections like UBTom). Why do you think it's so freaking hard for an undergrad to perform any kinds of research. I dont care if the dental school is #1 in clinics.....everyone wants a person with some real world experience. You need to get your facts straight before forming these ridiculous conclusions. Leave the statistical analysis to people who actually know what they are talking about.

Well Doggie, Im still gonna smoke my blunts, but I also still gonna get my stats from the ADA. Ever heard of them? The American Dental Association? Their website is www.ada.org.

So please explain why according to the ADA, 70% of people go into private practice when they graduate? The fact that you would say a comment like this which ANY idiot, predent or not would know amazes me and makes me begin to wonder why a 2nd year Columbian would say something like that. THere goes your credibility buddy! I really cant believe that you think that EVERY dental student has to do more than 4 years to go into private practice...If thats what they teach you at Columbia, damn, they are doing well on their brainwashing techniques. The fact that you dont know what an associateship is scares me....Dude, what have u been doing during your last two years at Columbia?? OH yah...you are the dental student and I am the predental student......I forgot...stupid stupid me!!!!

Avi... i have a feeling you were either 1. rejected or 2. waitlisted. I remember asking you a while ago and you said you haven't heard from columbia... and usually you hear from us pretty soon after your interview...

YEAHHHHHH...I was waiting for someone to bring this up....I knew someone was gonna think that Im only saying this stuff about Columbia because Im bitter...HAHAHHA....It actually came later than I thought. But once again, assumptions of my Columbia friends are wrong. Well, when I interviewed there, I didnt buy into their rhetoric that they were spouting during the interview, and if any other people are on SDN that interviewed on Feb. 27, they can vouch for me that right after the interview when we met outside, I was the only one doubting the school and what they were saying. So I gave it a chance....was excited....interviewed.....very dissapointed, cause the facts began to make sense. I was only considering it for their MPH combined degree, but the lack of the most important part of a dental education (clinical skills) made me think otherwise.

In MY opinion, I think going to columbia will equip me with the whole dental arsenal if you will. Even if that takes one extra year. What's one extra year worth in the lifetime of your career, basically next to nothing.

Wow Freddy....once again, as UBTom has shown, your ignorance amazes me. But Im glad we both are finally acknowleding that Columbia indeed DOES NOT give you all the opportunities in 4 years that you were saying so confidently before? And sure...whats one extra year, large tuition, average facilities, and the chance to live in a box like dorm.......who cares right? You get the prestigous IVY LEAGUE ELITIST PRIDE that this debate has shown can matter so much!! WOOOHOOOO!

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

That said, Columbia has their own approach to dental education, and if it's fine with the ADA, it's fine with me. One gets the Wrath of Tom treatment only if there is some gross misconception being perpetuated, like how some pre-dents want to attend a school because they somehow think that just going there will guarantee them a spot in a post-grad Ortho program or some such patently-false elitist bullcrap.

I know you were not taking sides at all, and just giving us the hardcore truth, but thanks for having my back. For some reason, people such as StarGirl and Doggie discredit me because Im just a stupid bitter predent, even though I gave statistics straight from the schools and the ADA and made them look even more ignorant with their false school pride. Its nice to have a graduating dentist give some credibility to my argument. CHeers!

And Griffin.....I also think its hilarious to see all these Columbia people becoming so desperate in maintaining their false prestige....Im so happy I can put these cocky Columbians in their place....GOOOOO IVY LEAGUE!

By the way dentalchica......where is that "Avin is stupid and doesnt know what he is talking about" thread? Im still waiting.

 

[StarGirl]

hmm maybe it'll be nice to see an acceptance letter w/ your name on it? (like we really care)... actually i think for the most part... everyone that's in the 08 class is probably glad that you're not coming here... you'll just be the bad apple of the class... it's good that you found the right school for you... and it's great that you realize columbia's not the right one for you... but there's really a time and place where what you say is appropriate....
why don't you go start a temple thread and focus your energy and time on that instead?

 

[gryffindor]

No one is holding a gun to someone's head saying you HAVE to do a GPR, but the reason they choose to do GPRs is because they are not confident of their actual dental skills, cause they havent gotten enough practice. Its clear logic and I dont know why school pride is getting in the way of understanding a simplistic argument. Dentistry requires the use of hands, and like anything else that uses your hands, YOU NEED TO PRACTICE. Be it dentistry, guitar, building models, its takes practice to get it right. Hence, the importance of clinical skills, which unfortunately, Columbia does not have.

Not true. I have quite a bit of confidence in my dental skills and could certainly find an associateship or a job with a chain-dental pracitce (I will NOT work for a chain) if I put forth the effort. Yet I choose to do a GPR b/c I'd like to learn things like implants, perio surgery, complex removable & fixed, proficiency at molar endo, dabble in some real ortho cases, good pedo behavior management & skills, some pedo OR cases - all things that are very valuable ($$$$) in private practice that you will NOT get good at in dental school, no matter where you go.

And many of my clinically talented and confident classmates are signing up for a GPR b/c they do not want to put up with taking the NERB examination (a horrendous, biased, subjective, expensive exam). New York is now waiving the NERB exam and will grant a NY license to any student in the USA in the classes of 2004 & 2005 if the student completes an ADA accredited GPR/AEGD. Starting with the class of 2006, don't even bother coming to New York state unless you do a GPR/AEGD b/c New York will not give you a license unless you do a minimum of 1 year post-grad - this applied to all graduates of all USA dental schools who want to practice in NY.

It's not pride. I already said it before - doing a GPR is a personal decision. Many times it is also influenced by your faculty and administration. Many teachers at Buffalo encourage us to do a GPR/AEGD - even if you are the #1 clinical student, they still feel it is a very \good experience and will most certainly supplement your clinical abilities. It is possible that at Temple, the faculty are telling their students that GPRs are crap and go straight to private practice. Believe me, faculty encouragement one way or the other can have a large impact on what path the senior students go (GPR/pursue specialty/go straight to practice).

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

hmm maybe it'll be nice to see an acceptance letter w/ your name on it? (like we really care)... actually i think for the most part... everyone that's in the 08 class is probably glad that you're not coming here... you'll just be the bad apple of the class... it's good that you found the right school for you... and it's great that you realize columbia's not the right one for you... but there's really a time and place where what you say is appropriate....
why don't you go start a temple thread and focus your energy and time on that instead?

Hey StarGirl....I have nothing against Columbia....im obviously not writing this because of sour grapes, cause I interviwed on Feb. 27 and two months later, Im only talking about it. The only reason I started this argument was to show Columbians who are always on this board being so cocky that their prestige is not true......thats all.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

Not true. I have quite a bit of confidence in my dental skills and could certainly find an associateship or a job with a chain-dental pracitce (I will NOT work for a chain) if I put forth the effort. Yet I choose to do a GPR b/c I'd like to learn things like implants, perio surgery, complex removable & fixed, proficiency at molar endo, dabble in some real ortho cases, good pedo behavior management & skills, some pedo OR cases - all things that are very valuable ($$$$) in private practice that you will NOT get good at in dental school, no matter where you go.

And many of my clinically talented and confident classmates are signing up for a GPR b/c they do not want to put up with taking the NERB examination (a horrendous, biased, subjective, expensive exam). New York is now waiving the NERB exam and will grant a NY license to any student in the USA in the classes of 2004 & 2005 if the student completes an ADA accredited GPR/AEGD. Starting with the class of 2006, don't even bother coming to New York state unless you do a GPR/AEGD b/c New York will not give you a license unless you do a minimum of 1 year post-grad - this applied to all graduates of all USA dental schools who want to practice in NY.

It's not pride. I already said it before - doing a GPR is a personal decision. Many times it is also influenced by your faculty and administration. Many teachers at Buffalo encourage us to do a GPR/AEGD - even if you are the #1 clinical student, they still feel it is a very \good experience and will most certainly supplement your clinical abilities. It is possible that at Temple, the faculty are telling their students that GPRs are crap and go straight to private practice. Believe me, faculty encouragement one way or the other can have a large impact on what path the senior students go (GPR/pursue specialty/go straight to practice).

So why do 70% of all US dental graduates NOT do a GPR?

 

[Woodsy]

Columbia RULES!

......

And that's my final answer.... for now..

 

[SillyRabbit]

This is for Avin with sour grapes in the wee hours of the morning:

**What is heavily desired, yet not obtained, is often criticized.**


And remember:

COLUMBIA TAKES ONLY THE BEST.

 

[dentalchica]

Avingupta
Dont be jealous of our pride...and no one i have met so far is cocky about columbia...you're the cocky one...boasting about Temple. Stargirl's right, go start your own Temple thread and stop criticizing just because you didnt get in

 

[DBB]

Seriously you guys should just all meet in a central location w. your schools colors on and throw fists. Thats the best way to solve things.......at least in my eyes.

 

[DBB]

...plus columbia is sweet

 

[freedyx3]

Hey StarGirl....I have nothing against Columbia....im obviously not writing this because of sour grapes, cause I interviwed on Feb. 27 and two months later, Im only talking about it. The only reason I started this argument was to show Columbians who are always on this board being so cocky that their prestige is not true......thats all.

Ok look back on this thread, you are the one who first started to make statements bout how columbians are cocky and yada yada. None of us said anything of that nature.

 

[StarGirl]

Hey StarGirl....I have nothing against Columbia....im obviously not writing this because of sour grapes, cause I interviwed on Feb. 27 and two months later, Im only talking about it. The only reason I started this argument was to show Columbians who are always on this board being so cocky that their prestige is not true......thats all.

i think this is the first time in my life anyone has ever called me Cocky... the only two Columbia students that still post are me and Doggie...and neither one of us says anything about Columbia unless it's to clear up some stuff that people like you and tom says which have no truth in it... Most of us at Columbia doesn't have a big head like you think... we're all just as humble and hardworkers as any other dental student.

 

[StarGirl]

Seriously you guys should just all meet in a central location w. your schools colors on and throw fists. Thats the best way to solve things.......at least in my eyes.

only if you're a big guy that i can hide behind

 

[cusp of carabelli]

only if you're a big guy that i can hide behind

don't worry stargirl...you can hide behind me!....

 

[Doggie]

according to the ADA, 70% of people go into private practice when they graduate?

OK.....but what does this have to do with you saying that columbia grads being forced into GPR? The article only mentions that 70% of NEWLY GRADUATED DENTAL STUDENTS in america join a private practice. If anything, it just negates my saying that it is hard for recents grads to go into practice without prior experience. You still fail to realize that many people chose to enter GPR so they can gain more experience to buffer up their CV. Endontics is perhaps one of the only few specialities that wont really consider grads without real world experience.

Going by your logic (rather ill-logic), columbia grads are forced to do a 5th year (GPR) because they are not good clinicians. Why then did a lot of canadian high schools REQUIRE their students to do a 13th grade? I guess that's cuz they are stupid then!?@?#

Yes, I agree that Columbia may not initially produce the most clinically competent general dentist, but you cant deny the fact that columbia produces superb specialists.

I'm done with this post............Good luck at Temple.

 

[Doggie]

i think this is the first time in my life anyone has ever called me Cocky... the only two Columbia students that still post are me and Doggie...

actually.........i perspire cockiness......... :-D

 

[UBTom]

neither one of us says anything about Columbia unless it's to clear up some stuff that people like you and tom says which have no truth in it...

Have your argument with Avingupta, but don't start your trash-talking at me.

I defy you to find anything in my posts on this thread about Columbia that is not a verifiable fact.

Either put up, or shut your sanctimonious venom hole.

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

This is for Avin with sour grapes in the wee hours of the morning:

**What is heavily desired, yet not obtained, is often criticized.**


And remember:

COLUMBIA TAKES ONLY THE BEST.

Wow, and everyone is wondering where am I getting the idea that Columbians are cocky!

I really dont think PAT scores of 14 and 15 are the best.......Harvard takes the best......Columbia just takes the highest AAs they can get. People with high AAs are not the best.....sorry SillyRabbit

Going by your logic (rather ill-logic), columbia grads are forced to do a 5th year (GPR) because they are not good clinicians. Why then did a lot of canadian high schools REQUIRE their students to do a 13th grade? I guess that's cuz they are stupid then!?@?#

Once again Doggie.....you're hilarious. Its not that Ontario high schoolers were stupid, its that the Gov't was stupid to have a Grade 13. Then they realized they were stupid and got rid of Grade 13. Even StarGirl and other Columbians have posted on SDN saying that they learn stuff that is unecessary. SO, Im not saying that Columbia students are stupid, but perhaps the Columbia admin should stop worrying about learning about the feet, and focus more on the clinical aspects of dentistry. Then like the Ontario gov't they can get rid of the 5th year!

and neither one of us says anything about Columbia unless it's to clear up some stuff that people like you and tom says which have no truth in it

Once again, proud Columbians disputing ADA statistics!!!....funny. Its up to people of who they want to believe. Cocky Columbians who would do ANYTHING to make their school look good, or good ole ADA statistics.

 

[StarGirl]

try doing a geographic search of the stats...you'll realize how hard it is to find a job if you're a new graduate w/o connections in big cities...

you're taking the numbers as if there's no biased or any confounding factors...

of course i'm proud that i'm at school here... i would be just as proud at any other school....


seriously go spend your energy and time on a school you'll be spending your next 4 years at...

 

[Dr.BadVibes]

try doing a geographic search of the stats...you'll realize how hard it is to find a job if you're a new graduate w/o connections in big cities...

you're taking the numbers as if there's no biased or any confounding factors...

of course i'm proud that i'm at school here... i would be just as proud at any other school....


seriously go spend your energy and time on a school you'll be spending your next 4 years at...

So if you only can get a job with connection, than why do official statistics say a majority of new dental graduates go right into private practice? Do all of those student have connections?? What about all those classified job listings for associteships on DentalTown....oh yah, Doggie was right, since I smoke pot all the time, I must have been high when I read them?

And how are these stats biased? the ADA states that 70% of graduates go into a private practice, yet only 2% of Columbia graduates go into a private practice. PLEASE stargirl, show me how these stats are biased?

There is a difference being proud in one's school and being blind to the faults to their school. Im proud of Temple, but if someone comes on and provides a decent argument bashing one aspect of Temple, I would agree, otherwise I would be ignorant. Also there is a problem when one is much too proud of their school that they spout out false rhetoric such as freddyx3's infamous claim that Columbia opens all these doors of opportunity. Same thing as if I, someone who is proud at Temple were saying that Temple is in the safest area of the US.

 

[StarGirl]

what doors are closed for columbia grads?

i'm not blinded by the faults of columbia, but YOU don't know what the faults are... you only know that we have a 35% speciality rate... and maybe that's a fault to you, but it's not to me or fred.

All i can say is, good luck to you at temple and glad you realize that columbia's not the right school for you (or maybe columbia realized you're not right for us... since you've never said you were accepted).