Is deferred military commitment possible if accepted into a civilian specialty?

[Lodo]

I am very interested in specializing (especially omfs) but have a concern with the amount of time it would potentially be before I would finally be out of the military. Here is what I would like to do: Enter a civilian specialty program immediately after dental school (assuming my acceptance) and
not have the Navy pay for it (therefore avoiding adding on additional
years of payback time on top of my dental school years of payback time). This would in a sense defer my 4 years of payback time from dental school until after I finish my specialty training.

I will be entering dental school this fall and have been in the process of applying for a HPSP scholarship through the Navy. However, I'm not real confident that my recruiter know all that she was talking about when I asked her the above question. Thanks!

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[BuckeyMcGee]

My advice: If you really want OMFS, work hard and bust your balls in dental school - if you have the outstanding grades and board scores, you should get into many civilian programs and the Navy (in need of oral surgeons greatly) will take you up. Busting your balls in dental school however means not having a life for 4 years, so decide what you want and go for it.

 

[BQuad]

If you search for specialty you'll find other threads that have discussed this topic.

 

[Lodo]

thanks guys! that's all helpful.

 

[prechilill]

If you enter the OMFS training at a Navy hospital (San Diego, Portsmouth, Bethesda) your HPSP scholarship payback is concurrent with your OMFS payback after you graduate from residency training. So, in the end you don't save any time by going to a civilian program on your own dime.

 

[BQuad]

Check with a recruiter on it and ask to see it in writing. I'm pretty sure the Army's OS residency isn't concurrent, at least none of the other specialties are. I would think it would be the same for all services but I could be wrong.

 

[Blando]

not to sound like i know it all or anything, b/c i know bquad has been in the army for a while, but at oblc this past year, colonel ? told us that the residency paybacks were concurrent with hpsp payback. so potentially if you go right into a 4 year omfs residency after dschool, you would payback that 4 year omfs residency with your 4 year hpsp scholarship payback. so 8 years ad. if you go into a 4 year omfs specialty after already serving 2 years. you would spend 10 years on ad. 2 years hpsp, 4 years omfs training, 2 years omfs/hpsp payback, 2 years omfs payback

 

[Lodo]

So it sounds like going into OMFS training at a Navy hospital is a better deal than entering a civilian OMFS program as long as you do it right out of school. However, is it very likely to be accepted into a Navy OMFS program immediatly upon graduating from dental school or will the Navy most-likely make you serve a couple years before accepting you into their specialty training?

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

Here's the deal. If you complete a residency in the AF ( I assume all branches will have the same commitment criteria). You owe year for year for the residency. Some two year programs (endo for example) you will owe three.

If you are granted the deferrment option (more likely for some specialties than others) you would owe ONLY for your HPSP.

Example...

4 year HPSP.
Deferment for OMS in civilian program before you go on active duty...
You only owe 4 years back.

Remember, you have zero military benifits or pay while you are civilian. You are pretty much a regular ol' civilian. This is why the payback is only for the HPSP.

If you complete a residency in the military it is a year-for-year commitment (some exceptions, see endo above).

Example....

4 year HPSP
4 year OMS with military
4 year pay back for OMS
= 12 years.

The thing to remember is the AEGD is now a neutral year (no commitment pay back). Second, you get paid as an officer with bonuses while in a residency ($65-85K/yr).

I am not 100% sure if you apply through a military board for say ortho, and go to a civilian program, if you are still active duty and receive military pay.
This is the nuts and bolts of it for the AF.

 

[BQuad]

That is my understanding too Snozberries. If they have changed the payback policy they haven't let me know about it.

In the Army there is 1 ortho slot at the University of Kentucky and I believe 4 at the Army/Air Force joint program at Lackland, San Antonio. If you were selected for the civilian program through the military application process you would still recieve you military pay and benefits.

 

[prechilill]

I am almost 100% positive that in the Navy, if you are undergoing specialty training that the time in training does count toward paying back your committment time from an HPSP or HSCP scholarship.

Your time in residency training does not count for any payback of the HPSP program.

 

[Deep Impact]

Snozberries is 100% correct. Everything applies to the Navy also. I'm looking at 8 more years in the Navy.

 

[Lodo]

So of the two conflicting commitment paybacks reported in this post, Snozzberries' is officially the actual way? So then there is no such thing as concurrent payback?

 

[prechilill]

I am currently at NNMC Bethesda in a postgraduate residency. My contract is a concurrent payback with my HPSP commitment.

 

[Lodo]

So how is it that some residents owe additional time for their residency (as described by Snozberries and Deep Impact) and some are able to concurrently pay their HPSP and residency time back concurrently (as described by Prechilill). How do I pull off getting concurrent payback?

 

[BQuad]

It may have been a change in the HPSP contract, in which case it depends on which year you signed the contract, it also may depend on which specialty. I would contact the Post graduate education director for whichever service you are interested in and try to get an answer from them.

 

[bass for less]

If you are accepted to a civilian residency but is rejected for deferment, that means you would have to repeat the application process all over again after payback, and see if another school would select you this time? That sounds pretty brutal. I hope the board score never loses its "legitimacy" like some schools treat old DAT scores.

 

[prechilill]

So how is it that some residents owe additional time for their residency (as described by Snozberries and Deep Impact) and some are able to concurrently pay their HPSP and residency time back concurrently (as described by Prechilill). How do I pull off getting concurrent payback?

Lodo,
If you train at a military facility and have a service obligation prior to entering residency, your payback is deferred until after you complete the residency. However, because you trained at a military facility (NNMC Bethesda, for example) your new obligation incurred from the residency is paid back concurrently with any obligation you had before the residency. We haven't seen much of this in the dental community but it is common knowledge on the physician side of the house (medical corps).
Here is where things get strange, though. If you do outservice and the military pays for the training, your obligations are not concurrent but consecutive. So if you have a 3 year HPSP commitment and do an outservice residency you will owe six years once you graduate. If you take a deferment for three years and pay for the residency yourself, you only owe your three years after residency. Coincidentally, this discussion came up yesterday between two staff members during a sedation case I was doing. All I can say it is weird and doesn't make sense. But there are a few more things that do not make sense such as being prior service you only get one half of your years as a line officer count towards promotion in the dental corps. Don't try and apply logic or reason to anything- just accept it.
Bottom line, if you are going to specialize try doing it at a military facility right out of school.

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

If you train at a military facility and have a service obligation prior to entering residency, your payback is deferred until after you complete the residency.

Yes True

However, because you trained at a military facility (NNMC Bethesda, for example) your new obligation incurred from the residency is paid back concurrently with any obligation you had before the residency. We haven't seen much of this in the dental community but it is common knowledge on the physician side of the house (medical corps).

You might want to check on this one. I am not sure if your previous payback is served concurrently with the residency. If this were the case, say someone has a 4 year HPSP scholarship, does an AEGD, and get's accepted to OMS one year post AEGD. What you are saying is the additonal three years he owes for the AEGD (he paid one year back after the AEGD before starting OMS) would be served concurrently with the OMS residency. That would make a total commitment time in the military 10 years.

If he is not allowed to serve his HPSP concurrently, he will have to serve 13 years. If you are correct, that great, but i am not too sure.

 

[prechilill]

That would make a total commitment time in the military 10 years.

If he is not allowed to serve his HPSP concurrently, he will have to serve 13 years. If you are correct, that great, but i am not too sure.

At least for my year group and the year group after me (class of 2007), the outservice training payback is consecutive so in your example 13 yrs would be the payback for OMFS outservice training. This may have changed, though. The director of post graduate education could answer the question definitively.

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

so we agree, right?

 

[umkcdds]

the army did not allow education delays for residencies last year, and i don't think they are allowing them this year either.

however, if the army were to allow you to do a civilian residency, the years spent during that civilian residency would not could toward your payback years (nor would it count for time in service, retirement points, etc...), however, you would be accruing more payback years during that time, all of which would begin being paid when you do start on active duty. these would be paid back to back, not concurrently.

 

[umkcdds]

Example....

4 year HPSP
4 year OMS with military
4 year pay back for OMS
= 12 years.

this isn't true for the Army. the initial 4 year HPSP ADSO is paid while you are in the OMS residency, in the example above.

in the Army, you would only owe four more years following the OMS residency.

 

[BQuad]

I don't think you would incur more payback for a civilian residency if the Army wasn't paying for it, it should be just a deferment, but as you said it's not likely to get one.

 

[umkcdds]

I don't think you would incur more payback for a civilian residency if the Army wasn't paying for it, it should be just a deferment, but as you said it's not likely to get one.

right, if the Army doesn't pay your tuition, then no additional ADSO is incurred.

 

[bass for less]

This is quickly becoming one of the most confusing threads to me so I called the AFPC in SA to get some clarification, here is what the person associated with the graduated education review board says:

1) specialty program payback can be concurrent if it is paid by the military and you still have HPSP payback left (duh).

2) since we normally apply to AEGD and military specialty the year before graduation, if you do get selected to enter specialty straight after dschool, you will complete the residency, and then serve. Here is the good part, the HPSP and residency payback years are concurrent, which means you really only need paying back "one commitment" (whichever is longer) to fulfill two paybacks. this is what prechilli meant, i think.

3) The catch is, it is really up to the review board to decide who and how many residents they need for any residency at a given year, meaning there could be none. i doubt that process is very transparent. if anyone has insight on that it would be great to hear.

 

[bass for less]

obviously the above post applies to AF only..

 

[umkcdds]

the only catch is (at least with the Army) is that the chances of you being allowed to delay entering active duty to do a civilian residency is slim to none - last year they would not allow it.

i don't want to assume, but i'd guess this is similar with the Navy and AF.

This is quickly becoming one of the most confusing threads to me so I called the AFPC in SA to get some clarification, here is what the person associated with the graduated education review board says:

1) specialty program payback can be concurrent if it is paid by the military and you still have HPSP payback left (duh).

2) since we normally apply to AEGD and military specialty the year before graduation, if you do get selected to enter specialty straight after dschool, you will complete the residency, and then serve. Here is the good part, the HPSP and residency payback years are concurrent, which means you really only need paying back "one commitment" (whichever is longer) to fulfill two paybacks. this is what prechilli meant, i think.

3) The catch is, it is really up to the review board to decide who and how many residents they need for any residency at a given year, meaning there could be none. i doubt that process is very transparent. if anyone has insight on that it would be great to hear.

 

[shamrock2006]

Maybe its b/c I'm sick and all my medication is really messing with my head..but, and this is more geared toward the AF, did I really see that...say...if after Dschool you got selected to do a 3 yr specialty residency of some type (hypothetical)...you'd go through the AF residency..then payback only 4 yrs of HPSP as a specialist? It wouldn't be a 7 yr pay back? .... Of course we all know getting into a military residency is hard to do right out of dschool since nobody will have any active duty experience..but still, i just want to clear this up.

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

Maybe its b/c I'm sick and all my medication is really messing with my head..but, and this is more geared toward the AF, did I really see that...say...if after Dschool you got selected to do a 3 yr specialty residency of some type (hypothetical)...you'd go through the AF residency..then payback only 4 yrs of HPSP as a specialist? It wouldn't be a 7 yr pay back? .... Of course we all know getting into a military residency is hard to do right out of dschool since nobody will have any active duty experience..but still, i just want to clear this up.

If you did the residency through the AF then it would be 7 years. If you are allowed to defer to a civilian specialty it would only be for the HPSP NOT FOR THE CIVILIAN RESIDENCY.

 

[UNR.Grad]

So the concurrent payback bass for less is talking about is only if you do a civilian residency?

 

[shamrock2006]

So the concurrent payback bass for less is talking about is only if you do a civilian residency?

it would seem that way. now that I read Snozberries response to what I posted earlier it seems to break down exactly like this: However many years the military pays for..that's how much you owe back. Although this is something interesting...I just talked to a buddy of mine who has a sister in an AEGD w/ the Air Force. She's not on the 4 yr...I dont know if she's on 3 or a 2...but he told me that her AEGD actually counts towards her payback...he's either full of crap, I'm completely ignorant on all this, or she was seriously lied to.

 

[Lodo]

I talked with a Navy dentist (who is currently paying back his HPSP). I asked him the specifics as to concurrent payback, and specifically as to whether it's concurrent only if you defer an HPSP and go civilian or if doing a military residency is also concurrent. He thought he knew the answers himself, but he double-checked with some other authority/reference in the Navy (which confirmed what he know). According to this dentist concurrent payback applies for both civilian and military residencies...just as bass for less describes above. Sounds like a pretty good deal.

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

You guys even have me confused now. Long story short, if you are allowed to civilian, you pay back only HPSP. If you go military residency you pay back HPSP and residency. I have a feeling we are all in agreement, but we are saying it different ways.

 

[umkcdds]

You guys even have me confused now. Long story short, if you are allowed to civilian, you pay back only HPSP. If you go military residency you pay back HPSP and residency. I have a feeling we are all in agreement, but we are saying it different ways.

yes, you have it right.....unless the service elects to send you to a civilian residency and pays for it (Navy does this for OS, Army does this for ortho and pedo....) then you owe payback time for the residency also.

the only thing about going to a civilian residency in the Army, is that the Army probably will not allow you to do it. (except for getting selected for the Army's ortho or pedo residency, which they send you to a civilian program for).

to go to a civilian residency, that you applied and got accepted to on your own, is called an education delay. to do this, you must get special approval for an education delay, and right now, the Army will not approve it. (i don't know about Navy or AF.)

there is a situation in the Army that allows the one year AEGD to count toward payback. if you only had a two-year HPSP scholarship, or started your HPSP scholarship before 2002 (i believe this year is correct) then the one-year AEGD does count toward your active duty service obligation (ADSO) that was incurred from the HPSP scholarship. this was my situation, as i only had a 2-year HPSP, because i was in the Army National Guard for the first two years of dental school.

 

[KDBuff]

Alright, way too much bad information on this board. I'm currently in my first year with the Navy and here's the deal:

Military residency payback is served concurrently with HPSP commitment. So if you get into omfs residency straight out of school, you do the 4 year residency, then you owe four more years (8 total). If you serve 2 years, then get into residency, you do the 4 year residency, then owe four more years (10 total).

I think the AF may be a bit different with AEGD, but for the Navy (and I believe the Army as well) the AEGD or GPR don't count toward payback. However, if you signed up 4 years ago, it would have counted, so there are a few people out there where it counts.

There are a couple of different programs for doing a civilian residency. If you do the one where the military doesn't give you any financial assistance, you don't incur any additional commitment. There is also the financial assistance program, where you get paid the same as active duty while in residency, and the payback works the same way as if you did a military residency.

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

exactly right!

An additonal note, The AF and ALL Braches of the military no longer count the AEGD as a payback year. As stated before this is now a neutral year.

 

[blankguy]

I've had a long chat with my recruiter and army dentists over residency programs. The military only allows civilian residencies if there is no comparable program in the military. If in a civilian residency the military pays for it then the payback period gets extended by 1 year for every year of the residency. If you pay it out of your pocket or via loans then the payback period does not get extended.

There also has to be a need in the military for such specialists.

So far AEGD, GPR and Oral Surgeries seem to be the most obvious programs that in the military I'm probably going to have 0% chance of being granted any deferments.

 

[blankguy]

Negative Ghostrider! Not true necessarilyfor Navy. The Navy has OMFS programs, but one guy from my school was accepted last year for a program in Dallas. The Navy is paying for him to go to a civilian program. Now, if the residency program was, let's say orthodontics, then it might be hard to convince the Navy to let you go. But, when the civilian residency meets the needs of the Navy there is a good chance they will allow it.

I am under the impression that OMFS is in great demand in the military. Could it be that the demand is so great that they can't accommodate the number of people that need to be trained in that??

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

I am under the impression that OMFS is in great demand in the military. Could it be that the demand is so great that they can't accommodate the number of people that need to be trained in that??

YES!! Especially for the Army and Navy. The Air Force is down to roughly 42 oral/maxillofacial surgeons. If the trend continues and all that could retire do, and all that could get out after their commitment do so, the AF will only have 25 of these 42 OMSers left is 2012. If there is still a need, this is when the branch may look to allow some to go to a civilian branch. Right now I know three guys who are practicing in the AF who graduated civilian OMS in the last two years. I know a couple who are in the Navy.

For you pre-dents. Remember, for all realistic purposes, the only civilian residency that charges tuition is an orthodontic residency. Almost all other pay you to go.

With this being said, the military does not pay for you to attend a civilian OMS residency for example. This is why you don't owe the years back to the military. This is why you would only owe for HPSP.

 

[UNR.Grad]

Does anyone know some info on students who are HPSP, serve their commitment, and then apply for a civilian residency, does this happen? Or does everyone do their residency w/ their branch since they are already in.

 

[blankguy]

What do specialty boards look for in candidates besides boards and class rank?

 

[SNOZBERRIES]

What do specialty boards look for in candidates besides boards and class rank?

a couple of my AEGD buddies are getting out and specializing in the civilian world.

The boards also like your ability to perform as an officer. This is very important. They also look at extra curriculars, rank in AEGD, and GRE. Yes you will probably have to take the GRE (at least in the AF). It's just another hoop to jump through.

One of the most important aspects are your letters of recommendation.

 

[umkcdds]

What do specialty boards look for in candidates besides boards and class rank?

1) good, personal, letters of recommendation from active duty specialists, that have been in the military a while is a BIG plus.

2) also, active duty service prior to applying holds a fair amount of weight. i know in the Army, there is almost no chance of getting into ortho or endo if you are right out of dental school.

3) next on the list of things they look highly upon is having completed an AEGD.

the board members aren't going to ignore gpa's and board scores, but without the the first two things i listed above, you don't have much chance of specializing, whether right out of school or not. having done an AEGD is weighted pretty heavily too. if you have all three of the above, then you have a really good chance of getting selected for specialty training, even if your gpa and board scores are just average.

i would probably rate gpa and board scores as being the 4th most important thing when applying for an Army specialty residency.

you have to be able to prove yourself as a clinician and a hard worker to a current specialist, in order to really get one to write a really good letter of recommendation that will help you out. i think for these reasons, the Army tends select specialists by placing a heavier weight on clinical skills, rather than gpa's, class ranks and board scores.

 

[umkcdds]

a couple of my AEGD buddies are getting out and specializing in the civilian world.

The boards also like your ability to perform as an officer. This is very important. They also look at extra curriculars, rank in AEGD, and GRE. Yes you will probably have to take the GRE (at least in the AF). It's just another hoop to jump through.

One of the most important aspects are your letters of recommendation.

ditto on what snozberries said, except that you don't need a GRE for the Army.

 

[hattrack04]

How does one go about getting in contact with specialists in the military during dental school?? (esp. if you do not get summers off like at UCLA)

 

[hattrack04]

Google a 'military base' you know has a good selection of specialists. Either get the base information number and ask them for the dental clinic's number, or search for the number for the base dental clinic yourself. When you get that number, call the clinic. Explain who you are and ask to speak with the dental commander or his/her assistant. Explain to him her who you are and that you are interested in a particular specialty and that you would like to be able to get in touch with one or more of the specialists of interest. Most likely, they will either transfer you or take down your info so someone could call you or e-mail you back. From my experiece, this has worked well. That is how I was able to assist at Lackland AFB at the dental residencies for a year.

Were you assisting before you started dental school??

 

[hattrack04]

Yes, full time on a volunteer basis so I could gain the expereince and attend post-graduate courses for the specialties. It was an awesome exper
ience!

I would love to do something like that......however I would need to find a side job if it's on a volunteer basis