Is dentistry debt worth it, help!!!

[Dustyrose96]

About a year ago, I had no idea what I wanted to do with the Biology degree I would be obtaining after I graduate from my University. I was given the suggestion to look in to dentistry and turns out, I love it! I shadowed a few dentists and seriously see myself doing what they do for the rest of my life. My only concern is that I have no idea how in hell I'm going to pay off my debt if I do end up pursuing this field and I'm starting to doubt if this is a smart move financially. I did not do well the first two years of my undergraduate schooling so realizing how poorly I was planning and managing my time, I took summer classes and became focused. My grades are starting to look way better than before but I know that they wont cut it for dental school right away. I looked into post bacc programs and master's programs but that adds yet another loan onto my plate. So basically all of the schooling I will need will require loans on loans on loans, including my undergraduate tuition. I really love dentistry but I'm afraid of drowning in debt. Is this a good idea? Please help

Also please reference me to other posts that might help me make a better decision, thanks!

Edit: I think I might end up with 350k...

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[O Gaúcho]

You might want to consider looking into the HPSP offered by all branches of the military. If you are willing and able to serve your country it is a fantastic deal.

 

[deleted696582]

Here are some informative threads concerning dentistry, debt, and the job market. There are various opinions on whether or not dentistry is worth a lot of debt, but these threads should allow you to make an informed decision.

Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

Next Time They Say It's No Longer Worth It...

The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

Dental School and Debt

 

[Alpha Centauri]

Here are some informative threads concerning dentistry, debt, and the job market. There are various opinions on whether or not dentistry is worth a lot of debt, but these threads should allow you to make an informed decision.

Going to Dental School Will Almost Surely Wreck Your Finances

Do NOT go into Dentistry - Trust me it is SATURATED

Next Time They Say It's No Longer Worth It...

The Most Ridiculously Expensive Dental Schools Thread

Dental School and Debt

I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market.

Although a 10 year payment plan is extremely aggressive and financially superior, you can greatly improve your "quality of life" by stretching your loan payment out to 15 years. And at that point, who cares? Your income will slowly increase as you become a better, more efficient dentist. Become a smart investor, spend/save wisely, file smart taxes and write off interest. Is your entire career going to die because you pay an extra 50-100k$ of interest (I have no idea the price difference from interest so don't quote me on that figure)

"Not everyone is smart at investing" you may say? Tough luck, then they aren't destined to be a successful entrepreneurial dentist. These are skills that need to be refined if one wants to experience the "gilded age" of dentistry so many are used to seeing. Otherwise, get used to working as an associate making a decent 6 figure salary, but not one that is justified with the schooling we will be put through.

I am attending a pricey private school next year; Not worried one bit. It won't be easy, but it will certainly not be impossible

Edit- Also the 400k figure that is so constantly thrown around may not be entirely accurate. This does not take into account actual savings you can grab from being frugal while in dental school. Not to mention the privilege of having outside help from a spouse or family. It isn't uncommon for people to have some or all of their living costs on the family checkbook.

 

[deleted696582]

I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market.

According to the BLS, the annual mean wage for dentists hovers around anywhere from $150-220k in metropolitan areas, and lies a bit higher in many nonmetropolitan areas.

Dentists, General

I've seen many posts quoting numbers between 120-140k for new grads, which is where managing debt from expensive schools (coupled with undergrad, masters, and post-baccalaureate program debts) gets tricky. I think that the threads posted are good for highlighting that dilemma at the least. It is a reality that some people will end up being associates for a while, run practices poorly, or live in a saturated area like you said. Hopefully the OP is aware of this now.

A lot of pre-dents don't realize they might have to live a frugal and possibly stressful lifestyle for years out of school. At least before they increase their earnings or purchase practices.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

According to the BLS, the annual mean wage for dentists hovers around anywhere from $150-220k in metropolitan areas, and lies a bit higher in many nonmetropolitan areas.

Dentists, General

I've seen many posts quoting numbers between 120-140k for new grads, which is where managing debt from expensive schools (coupled with undergrad, masters, and post-baccalaureate program debts) gets tricky. I think that the threads posted are good for highlighting that dilemma at the least. It is a reality that some people will end up being associates for a while, run practices poorly, or live in a saturated area like you said. Hopefully the OP is aware of this now.

A lot of pre-dents don't realize they might have to live a frugal and possibly stressful lifestyle for years out of school. At least before they increase their earnings or purchase practices.

Absolutely! And with that being said I am actively pursuing a 3 year AF HPSP (2 year is available with a 3 year commitment as well but better than nothing). However it is worth keeping in the back of your head that the debt is large. It shouldn't scare you however. It is the cost of the game

 

[deleted696582]

Absolutely! And with that being said I am actively pursuing a 3 year AF HPSP (2 year is available with a 3 year commitment as well but better than nothing). However it is worth keeping in the back of your head that the debt is large. It shouldn't scare you however. It is the cost of the game

Good luck - hope you get it.

 

[FanOfCostco]

I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market.

Although a 10 year payment plan is extremely aggressive and financially superior, you can greatly improve your "quality of life" by stretching your loan payment out to 15 years. And at that point, who cares? Your income will slowly increase as you become a better, more efficient dentist. Become a smart investor, spend/save wisely, file smart taxes and write off interest. Is your entire career going to die because you pay an extra 50-100k$ of interest (I have no idea the price difference from interest so don't quote me on that figure)

"Not everyone is smart at investing" you may say? Tough luck, then they aren't destined to be a successful entrepreneurial dentist. These are skills that need to be refined if one wants to experience the "gilded age" of dentistry so many are used to seeing. Otherwise, get used to working as an associate making a decent 6 figure salary, but not one that is justified with the schooling we will be put through.

I am attending a pricey private school next year; Not worried one bit. It won't be easy, but it will certainly not be impossible

Edit- Also the 400k figure that is so constantly thrown around may not be entirely accurate. This does not take into account actual savings you can grab from being frugal while in dental school. Not to mention the privilege of having outside help from a spouse or family. It isn't uncommon for people to have some or all of their living costs on the family checkbook.

Preach! Best response ever.

 

[Stanelz]

Do what you truly love and you will be satisfied and good at it. The money will come. Better to be satisfied in your job and be in a debt (that you can get out of without struggling) than to settle for something else just because it is financially more pleasing. If I wanted money I would be a trash man, those dudes make bank but it would be miserable, for me at least.

 

[deleted696582]

Do what you truly love and you will be satisfied and good at it.

Yeah - I wish I would have done this years ago.

 

[Medin2017]

I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market.

Although a 10 year payment plan is extremely aggressive and financially superior, you can greatly improve your "quality of life" by stretching your loan payment out to 15 years. And at that point, who cares? Your income will slowly increase as you become a better, more efficient dentist. Become a smart investor, spend/save wisely, file smart taxes and write off interest. Is your entire career going to die because you pay an extra 50-100k$ of interest (I have no idea the price difference from interest so don't quote me on that figure)

"Not everyone is smart at investing" you may say? Tough luck, then they aren't destined to be a successful entrepreneurial dentist. These are skills that need to be refined if one wants to experience the "gilded age" of dentistry so many are used to seeing. Otherwise, get used to working as an associate making a decent 6 figure salary, but not one that is justified with the schooling we will be put through.

I am attending a pricey private school next year; Not worried one bit. It won't be easy, but it will certainly not be impossible

Edit- Also the 400k figure that is so constantly thrown around may not be entirely accurate. This does not take into account actual savings you can grab from being frugal while in dental school. Not to mention the privilege of having outside help from a spouse or family. It isn't uncommon for people to have some or all of their living costs on the family checkbook.

With the median of general dentists who own a practice being 180k, I think being in the top 50% among owners isn't as easy as you make it. Also trends of general dent wages have decreased in recent years (not sure if it will bounce back), and corporate will play a slightly bigger part in the future as the years go by. However, this could be b/c some of those general dentists are working part time.

 

[8_man]

Do what you truly love and you will be satisfied and good at it.

I'm pretty passionate about watching Netflix. Is anyone hiring for this?

 

[Kareful]

I'm pretty passionate about watching Netflix. Is anyone hiring for this?

Dude yeah. Just finish third season of Bleach

 

[Alpha Centauri]

With the median of general dentists who own a practice being 180k, I think being in the top 50% among owners isn't as easy as you make it. Also trends of general dent wages have decreased in recent years (not sure if it will bounce back), and corporate will play a slightly bigger part in the future as the years go by. However, this could be b/c some of those general dentists are working part time.

I never said it was easy brotha'

 

[Medin2017]

I never said it was easy brotha'

"I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market."

I guess 50% of all dentists who own a practice are poorly run or in saturated areas then. It's not like 50% of all dentists are inefficient either. Not to mention like I said gp income has been on a slight decline according to the ADA data.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

"I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market."

I guess 50% of all dentists who own a practice are poorly run or in saturated areas then. It's not like 50% of all dentists are inefficient either. Not to mention like I said gp income has been on a slight decline according to the ADA data.

I should have clarified. From my point of view any dentist should be making that much that late in their careee judging from the business practices and themes I'd like to apply to my own practice. My point of view is not reality. Likewise, I'm sure there is a reason for the average dentist not making 200kish a year. Whether that is laziness, saturation, poor work, or bad personality.

 

[Medin2017]

I should have clarified. From my point of view any dentist should be making that much that late in their careee judging from the business practices and themes I'd like to apply to my own practice. My point of view is not reality. Likewise, I'm sure there is a reason for the average dentist not making 200kish a year. Whether that is laziness, saturation, poor work, or bad personality.

Hope so. Or else people with like 400k+ debt will have a pretty tough life for a few decades.

 

[CFKazu]

An associate dentist makes about $150k. With an average/mediocre dental office you are looking at around $250k. With a successful dental office and maybe opens one or two more offices you are looking at $500k+. These numbers are based on my father's experiences and his friends' experiences in southern California. Hope it helps!

 

[Medin2017]

An associate dentist makes about $150k. With an average/mediocre dental office you are looking at around $250k. With a successful dental office and maybe opens one or two more offices you are looking at $500k+. These numbers are based on my father's experiences and his friends' experiences in southern California. Hope it helps!

Wait then why is the median of the ADA graph of practice owners 180k?

 

[Medin2017]

Dental town definitely sings a different tune

 

[CFKazu]

Wait then why is the median of the ADA graph of practice owners 180k?

My father said that might be due to dental offices find ways to lower their incomes so that they don't have to pay as much tax as they would have otherwise needed. It can also depend on location and saturation of dental offices in the area of course.

edit: Also please note that the dentists that I took these numbers from all work 5-6 days a week.

 

[Medin2017]

My father said that might be due to dental offices find ways to lower their incomes so that they don't have to pay as much tax as they would have otherwise needed. It can also depend on location and saturation of dental offices in the area of course.

edit: Also please note that the dentists that I took these numbers from all work 5-6 days a week.

oh yea 5-6 day a week makes sense. pretty sure ada's was like 4 days a week so 180*5/4 or 1.5 would be around 225-270k.

 

[ncide]

Wait then why is the median of the ADA graph of practice owners 180k?

It's self-reported and few dentists actually respond to the questionnaire.

 

[Medin2017]

It's self-reported and few dentists actually respond to the questionnaire.

it's cool how dent is not salaried like med, but I wish it was easier to find info about this stuff. Too vast a range in replies. Reminds me of MCAT vs DAT. MCAT info is everywhere online while DAT only has statistics from like 2009

 

[CFKazu]

Check this site for some general ideas.

Current Listings - Greg Beamer Dental Broker

You can see that the average incomes collected last year (the ones that list them) are nowhere near $180k.

 

[Medin2017]

Check this site for some general ideas.

Current Listings - Greg Beamer Dental Broker

You can see that the average incomes collected last year (the ones that list them) are nowhere near $180k.

Not sure how to get income from collections

 

[FlowerGirll35]

Not sure how to get income from collections

OMGosh you're so dense.
Net income for a practice owner is generally 33% of collections. Don't you know anything?

 

[Medin2017]

OMGosh you're so dense.
Net income for a practice owner is generally 33% of collections. Don't you know anything?

Oh shooooot tax not included? What about paying of employees? Guess I learned something. Thx flowergirl!

 

[ncide]

Not sure how to get income from collections

It depends on the office but overhead is usually around 55%.

If you are an associate, you generally take home about 30% of your production. I only mentioned this figure because I saw the number being discussed, but it's more accurate of an associate position.

 

[Medin2017]

It depends on the office but overhead is usually around 55%.

If you are an associate, you generally take home about 30% of your production. I only mentioned this figure because I saw the number being discussed, but it's more accurate of an associate position.

So if you owned your own office and had 1 million in collections, with an overhead of 55% you would have net income of 450,000 which would then be taxed afterwards correct?

 

[ncide]

So if you owned your own office and had 1 million in collections, with an overhead of 55% you would have net income of 450,000 which would then be taxed afterwards correct?

Yep, that's right. There are also ways to lower your taxable income too, and place expenses on your business.

 

[Medin2017]

Yep, that's right. There are also ways to lower your taxable income too, and place expenses on your business.

Oh cool thanks. Guess the person saying net collections is 33% was wrong then.

 

[FlowerGirll35]

Oh cool thanks. Guess the person saying net collections is 33% was wrong then.

Am I? A 55% overhead equates to a gross income of 45%. Let's say you want to tax that $450K now, there is only so much you can write off. That places you in the 40% tax bracket, so even with smart write-off's you can lower it to between 25%-30%.
Where does that leave us?? At about $330K, which is...*GASP!!* 33% of collections!
Take a look at my earlier posting genius - I said NET INCOME is 33% of collections. You really should learn your terminology first, because otherwise you will continue looking stupid.

 

[Medin2017]

Am I? A 55% overhead equates to a gross income of 45%. Let's say you want to tax that $450K now, there is only so much you can write off. That places you in the 40% tax bracket, so even with smart write-off's you can lower it to between 25%-30%.
Where does that leave us?? At about $330K, which is...*GASP!!* 33% of collections!
Take a look at my earlier posting genius - I said NET INCOME is 33% of collections. You really should learn your terminology first, because otherwise you will continue looking stupid.

ncide so my former statement of net income then taxed afterwards is wrong because net income is after taxes? HOLY **** then those ADA Net income levels of dentists and specialists are super high then. So 180k on that graph is taking home 180k per year? I always thought those huge numbers (like omfs 460k avg for example) were before taxes! Can someone confirm this? Dang this post might have made me 2x more optimistic about my future.


NVM

Ok, I don't know if people don't read all the posts or what, but, as has been said previous times by other posters, the income is net income. But this net income refers to the net income of the business after paying for things like staff, supplies, etc. This is the net income of the dental practice that the dentist recieves.

Then, for tax purposes, when filling out taxes we call this amout gross income (in relation to taxes). Gross income for the dentist may be the amount that he gets from his practice and any other income from investments, other businesses etc. This total income to the dentist is then called gross income when filling out taxes. The gross income less the taxes paid is then the "take home income" of the dentist. This is also called net income (once again in relation to taxes).

There are two gross incomes and two net incomes. One set for the dental business, one set for the dentist/business owner.

Obviously the amount that many people are discussing is not net income in relation to taxes (aka the take home pay). Dentists have other investments and other businesses that are not included in this salary survey. The net income of this survery is the net income of the practice (aka the gross income of the dentist before taxes are paid).

To make is short: the net income is the salary of the dentist. Salarys are always listed pre-tax (for the reason that people may receive the same salary, but pay different taxes based on individual's investments, etc.)

Ok, no more crazy talk about this "net income" being take-home pay after taxes.

 

[acesofseven]

Dude, $350k is nothing compared to what some private schools charge...

 

[FlowerGirll35]

ncide so my former statement of net income then taxed afterwards is wrong because net income is after taxes? HOLY **** then those ADA Net income levels of dentists and specialists are super high then. So 180k on that graph is taking home 180k per year? I always thought those huge numbers (like omfs 460k avg for example) were before taxes! Can someone confirm this? Dang this post might have made me 2x more optimistic about my future.

Why are you asking random people on the internet to define a term? Google it yourself you DingDong. Ughh nevermind, you probably can't even do that so I'll do it for you:
Net income (NI) is a company's total earnings or profit (this is what for YOU); net income is calculated by taking revenues and subtracting the costs of doing business such as depreciation, interest, taxes and other expenses.

 

[Medin2017]

Am I? A 55% overhead equates to a gross income of 45%. Let's say you want to tax that $450K now, there is only so much you can write off. That places you in the 40% tax bracket, so even with smart write-off's you can lower it to between 25%-30%.
Where does that leave us?? At about $330K, which is...*GASP!!* 33% of collections!
Take a look at my earlier posting genius - I said NET INCOME is 33% of collections. You really should learn your terminology first, because otherwise you will continue looking stupid.

Ok so I was reading on the forums I think the wordage is still wrong. Gross income is the thing that's taxed, not net income. Here's a quote that cleared it up for me:

Ok, I don't know if people don't read all the posts or what, but, as has been said previous times by other posters, the income is net income. But this net income refers to the net income of the business after paying for things like staff, supplies, etc. This is the net income of the dental practice that the dentist recieves.

Then, for tax purposes, when filling out taxes we call this amout gross income (in relation to taxes). Gross income for the dentist may be the amount that he gets from his practice and any other income from investments, other businesses etc. This total income to the dentist is then called gross income when filling out taxes. The gross income less the taxes paid is then the "take home income" of the dentist. This is also called net income (once again in relation to taxes).

There are two gross incomes and two net incomes. One set for the dental business, one set for the dentist/business owner.

Obviously the amount that many people are discussing is not net income in relation to taxes (aka the take home pay). Dentists have other investments and other businesses that are not included in this salary survey. The net income of this survery is the net income of the practice (aka the gross income of the dentist before taxes are paid).

To make is short: the net income is the salary of the dentist. Salarys are always listed pre-tax (for the reason that people may receive the same salary, but pay different taxes based on individual's investments, etc.)

Ok, no more crazy talk about this "net income" being take-home pay after taxes.

 

[Craig_Sherwood234]

Ok so I was reading on the forums I think the wordage is still wrong. Gross income is the thing that's taxed, not net income. Here's a quote that cleared it up for me:

.

 

[Incis0r]

About a year ago, I had no idea what I wanted to do with the Biology degree I would be obtaining after I graduate from my University. I was given the suggestion to look in to dentistry and turns out, I love it! I shadowed a few dentists and seriously see myself doing what they do for the rest of my life. My only concern is that I have no idea how in hell I'm going to pay off my debt if I do end up pursuing this field and I'm starting to doubt if this is a smart move financially. I did not do well the first two years of my undergraduate schooling so realizing how poorly I was planning and managing my time, I took summer classes and became focused. My grades are starting to look way better than before but I know that they wont cut it for dental school right away. I looked into post bacc programs and master's programs but that adds yet another loan onto my plate. So basically all of the schooling I will need will require loans on loans on loans, including my undergraduate tuition. I really love dentistry but I'm afraid of drowning in debt. Is this a good idea? Please help

Also please reference me to other posts that might help me make a better decision, thanks!

Edit: I think I might end up with 350k...

I don't think $350K is too bad. Have you considered the military or NHSC programs/scholarships?

I'm pretty passionate about watching Netflix. Is anyone hiring for this?

I actually think there is a job for this.

 

[DreamChaser01]

The problem is that pre dentals tend to underestimate the amount of their student loan and overestimate their future income. Your student loan will accumulate interest on DAY 1 when you signed your name on that dotted line. So please do your future self a favored apply and go to the CHEAPEST dental school that is possible. In the end of the day, all your patients see is Dr. [your last name] DMD or DDS on your scrub.

 

[redhotchiligochu]

I'd like to point out that these threads revolve around the notion that you will make a static xxx amount of money for the entire duration of your career which is HIGHLY improbable. If you are making under 180k as a GP 10 years out from school there is something missing, whether you are still an associate, poorly run practice, or saturated market.

Although a 10 year payment plan is extremely aggressive and financially superior, you can greatly improve your "quality of life" by stretching your loan payment out to 15 years. And at that point, who cares? Your income will slowly increase as you become a better, more efficient dentist. Become a smart investor, spend/save wisely, file smart taxes and write off interest. Is your entire career going to die because you pay an extra 50-100k$ of interest (I have no idea the price difference from interest so don't quote me on that figure)

Word.

When you have investments that can significantly outweigh the 6.75% student loan rate and when you can have associates working for you in the future, your life will be much less financially stressful, not to mention that stretching out payments will increase your cash flow to invest in other things.

People do not understand the power of compound interest and passive income. Sure, that 6.75% of the $500k prinicipal for the most expensive dental schools (e.g. NYU, USC, Penntal) can work against you, but if you can manage 10-15% return on stocks and have associates working for you ASAP, your net worth will increase dramatically.

Robert Kiyoshi's "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is a good book if any of you are interested in learning why the "middle class" struggles (spoiler alert: assets vs. liabilities)