is DO your 1st choice?

[mechanictodr]

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It takes a lot of retakes to get out of that low 3.X range and into the lower med school applicant average. Wasn't that big a deal to me back when I got the C's since the grad programs I wanted only looked at the last 60 credits of my engineering program so I thought nothing of it at the time.

 

[JaggerPlate]

It takes a lot of retakes to get out of that low 3.X range and into the lower med school applicant average. Wasn't that big a deal to me back when I got the C's since the grad programs I wanted only looked at the last 60 credits of my engineering program so I thought nothing of it at the time.

It still probably cost a significant amount of time, money, effort, etc, and although you thought nothing of it, it would surprise me to see the average DO applicant retaking 7 courses during undergraduate. It simply isn't efficient and would really delay the application process. Again, maybe it's me, but I think most people retake a few classes (aside from those who essentially do post baccs, get a second BS, etc) and, because of this, the full grade replacement (compared to averaging) doesn't usually make a .3 jump like your case.

 

[mechanictodr]

It still probably cost a significant amount of time, money, effort, etc, and although you thought nothing of it, it would surprise me to see the average DO applicant retaking 7 courses during undergraduate. It simply isn't efficient and would really delay the application process. Again, maybe it's me, but I think most people retake a few classes (aside from those who essentially do post baccs, get a second BS, etc) and, because of this, the full grade replacement (compared to averaging) doesn't usually make a .3 jump like your case.

I agree with this. I still think that most DO student get into medical school by a slim margin. Much more drop in either GPA of MCAT and it would have not been an option without an SMP or something.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Bull. PM me the name and contact information (including phone number) of every MD you have heard say "I wish I had gone to DO school." I will come on here and confess to being a complete idiot if you can direct me to even one MD who will tell me that he wishes that he was a DO.



Well, it sure doesn't seem petty to pre-DO posters on SDN. Here are just a few of the ludicrous statements (loosely paraphrased) that I've read from pre-DOs just in the past week:

DO schools are actually more competitive than MD schools

DO is the future of medicine

I got in to a top 5 medical school (which I won't name), but I chose to go DO.

... and, of course, your classic

I know MDs who wish they were DOs

If I wasn't so lazy, I could come up with dozens and dozens of similar statements. Why do pre-DO students say such things? An inferiority complex for which they attempt to compensate by arguing that the DO degree is not just the equivalent of the MD degree, it is actually superior? You tell me. They really can't have a reasonable expectation that anyone believes that nonsense. When I read such things I am reminded of the famous line from Hamlet, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

I'm not really sure why you find it so hard to believe that some people would prefer DO over MD . I based my comment off of one particular person I knew during her med student days...I still have the facebook message in my inbox where she says in retrospect that sometimes she wishes she had gone DO because it would have been a better fit for her in some ways. You're digging me into a hole here by asking for someone's pesronal information- if I don't give it to you, I look like a liar. If I do, I jeopardize someone's personal information and potentially anger them a lot. Since I respect this person more than you at this point, I choose to just look like a liar to you. Luckily, everyone else on this website will:
a. not care nearly as much you do and
b. believe my statement at face value since lying about it does absolutely nothing to benefit me whatsoever

Not everyone has tons and tons of options available to them in this whole process, you know. I didn't feel competitive for my state MD school (yes school...only ONE, unlike some states with two, three, or more) and I wanted to be a doctor regardless of how I got there. Not only that, but I honestly didn't like my state MD school. So who's the more ridiculous individual- the one that can admit flaws/mistakes in one's academic past that happened to lead them to a more desirable path to a career (in THEIR opinion, not yours which is ultimately irrelevant) or the one that takes the time to try to make others feel bad about their decision and desire to go DO?

ALL i was trying to say is that the OP should be insecure about pursuing the DO route because the DOs I have encountered are generally speaking pleased with their experience and I have known of MDs who expressed a mild regret about not having gone the DO route.

Your comment did nothing to benefit this thread.

 

[avatarftw]

a

 

[familyaerospace]

Am I alone in seeking out a DO program as my 1st choice, and looking forward to a DO residency and DO practice?

Right now, I am putting together a list of schools to apply to next year. While a DO school is not my #1, I have one right now as my #3.

 

[GuitarFreak]

Just FYI ... There ARE people (as small as the percentage might be) who preferred DO schools over MD schools after an MD acceptance.

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/AppRpt2009.pdf

& these are just the people who responded to this survey.

 

[CookDeRosa]

I think that the OP must be in a similar position otherwise he must really love the idea of OMT.

Actually I'm a she. I have not taken the MCAT since I'm still doing prereqs. But, my undergrad was a 3.875 So far in my sciences I'm 3.7

I won't go into the many reasons I'm choosing DO in this thread, I can save that for another day. But, like I said, I picked DO before I knew that it was the plan B for many premeds. Finding that out, frankly, bums me out....but doesn't change a thing.

 

[DbDan]

I think that grade replacement discrepencies between AMCAS and AACOMAS really makes the GPA similar between MD and DO schools. It may not seem like much but I know that the extra .3 GPA boost that AACOMAS gave me will make a huge diff.

... I also love how you selected my words to make the worst possible exerpt that you could from that sentence.

I agree that grade replacement can and will make a big difference in your grades. Its also probably a small part of the reason that DO/MD grades are similar. I don't believe that every DO student has taken advantage of the policy and I do feel that many students are choosing to pursue DO for whatever reason despite being a quality applicant for either.

At the same time the policy allows people like myself who didn't do well in undergrad for maturity reasons, change of majors, problems in life, etc. to have a second shot that we wouldn't have had with MD schools. For instance, 3 retakes (14 units) have moved my sGPA up from 2.76 last year to 3.01 this year. To make the same move in my sGPA without replacement policies I'm looking at >40 units worth the work. My pathway to DOs would be a year of retakes -> ~3.2 and my MCAT make me competitive. For MDs it'd be a year of coursework to about a 3.0, hope to get into an SMP, spend massive amounts of money at the SMP and run into more debt, apply 1-2 years later and then pursue an MD degree.

I feel that intelligence wise I can compete with any MD or DO student, I may not be top tier MD school material but I feel my MCAT shows I am competant enough to train as a physician. DO students still have to gain entrance and even with grade replacement have to display the intelligence needed to raise their GPA up to a competitive level. That said, I feel that as time goes on the line between DO/MD is going to continue to blur to the point where no one cares (not that they notice currently) ala DMD/DDS. Most of the population doesn't even know that there is two dental degrees, just that they see a dentist. I see it being the same with physicians. I don't have a real preference about the letters behind my name, if I enjoy a DO school more than an MD I'll go to whichever I feel more comfortable.

I got off topic but hey, I think I made my point

 

[radiodoc99]

OMT is why I chose DO. Building a practice where you heal patients instantly or atleast provide relief is key when meds dont work or are contraindicated. OMT should be a factor in your decision because everything from exams to class lectures will have OMM.
Primary care +OMT is a nice practice.

 

[ruiner]

No, it wasn't. Location wise I got into some nice DO schools but other then that I was not drawn to them beyond the MD schools I interviewed at/got into.

 

[Isoprop]

My first choice is based on location and price.

The most desirable location for me is in CA and the only school I'm applying to in CA is Western. The cheapest is my in-state DO school. So there's my first 2 choices.

 

[basupran]

Oh goodness...not this again. First off, I have met osteopathic med students who say they were accepted to allopathic med schools but chose DO and then later admitted that it was a Caribbean med school. That doesn't count. LCME MD schools are more competitive than DO schools (on average).

PCOM is one of the most highly regarded DO schools. Their website states the average class GPA was 3.43, the science GPA was 3.32 and the mean MCAT score was 26.
http://www.pcom.edu/admissions/adm_faqs/DoFaqs.html

UMDNJ Osteopathic, average MCAT 27
http://som.umdnj.edu/education/admissions/faq.html

Accept it, move on, who cares. The fact of the matter is that it is human nature to stratify within a group. When I was doing my acting internships, there were some Harvard kids looking down on Tufts kids who were looking down on Stony Brook kids who were looking down on Meharry kids who were looking down on DO kids who were looking down on Caribbean kids who were looking down on PA kids who were looking down on.....

Who cares? Just do the best you can as a human being - become a doctor for the right reasons - and everything will fall in place. There is no need to defend where you went to school, etc...

For all the premeds who are choosing a medical school from multiple admissions, take a careful look at the match list- it is very important to see where most grads are winding up. It is also important to find out the specialties. Derm, plastics, urology, orthopaedics and ent are considered to be the most competitive specialties.

 

[DbDan]

basupran, post aside, your signature made me

Step I + Max Bench >630 is awesome haha

<----- Powerlifted in HS/College

 

[docdoc121]

Oh goodness...not this again. First off, I have met osteopathic med students who say they were accepted to allopathic med schools but chose DO and then later admitted that it was a Caribbean med school. That doesn't count. LCME MD schools are more competitive than DO schools (on average).

PCOM is one of the most highly regarded DO schools. Their website states the average class GPA was 3.43, the science GPA was 3.32 and the mean MCAT score was 26.
http://www.pcom.edu/admissions/adm_faqs/DoFaqs.html

UMDNJ Osteopathic, average MCAT 27
http://som.umdnj.edu/education/admissions/faq.html

Accept it, move on, who cares. The fact of the matter is that it is human nature to stratify within a group. When I was doing my acting internships, there were some Harvard kids looking down on Tufts kids who were looking down on Stony Brook kids who were looking down on Meharry kids who were looking down on DO kids who were looking down on Caribbean kids who were looking down on PA kids who were looking down on.....

Who cares? Just do the best you can as a human being - become a doctor for the right reasons - and everything will fall in place. There is no need to defend where you went to school, etc...

For all the premeds who are choosing a medical school from multiple admissions, take a careful look at the match list- it is very important to see where most grads are winding up. It is also important to find out the specialties. Derm, plastics, urology, orthopaedics and ent are considered to be the most competitive specialties.

I COMPLETELY AGREE. However, there is one poster in this forum who doesn't believe in facts and believes them to be "off." He would rather believe what people tell him about their scores on the interview trail. You can't convince him or others like him with inferiority complexes.

 

[basupran]

basupran, post aside, your signature made me

Step I + Max Bench >630 is awesome haha

<----- Powerlifted in HS/College

Good stuff- you'll probably wind up in ortho! There is a running joke about ortho index where you add up step 1 + bench and can then figure out whether or not someone is competitive enough for ortho. It kinda makes sense- I had to pull traction a 340 lb woman with a femoral shaft fracture - I definitely broke a sweat pulling on that leg as hard as I could.

"Orthopedic surgeons, who are allegedly as strong as an ox and twice as smart, or was that as smart as an ox and twice as strong?" -- Mark Niemer

 

[Isoprop]

Oh goodness...not this again. First off, I have met osteopathic med students who say they were accepted to allopathic med schools but chose DO and then later admitted that it was a Caribbean med school. That doesn't count. LCME MD schools are more competitive than DO schools (on average).

PCOM is one of the most highly regarded DO schools. Their website states the average class GPA was 3.43, the science GPA was 3.32 and the mean MCAT score was 26.
http://www.pcom.edu/admissions/adm_faqs/DoFaqs.html

UMDNJ Osteopathic, average MCAT 27
http://som.umdnj.edu/education/admissions/faq.html

Accept it, move on, who cares. The fact of the matter is that it is human nature to stratify within a group. When I was doing my acting internships, there were some Harvard kids looking down on Tufts kids who were looking down on Stony Brook kids who were looking down on Meharry kids who were looking down on DO kids who were looking down on Caribbean kids who were looking down on PA kids who were looking down on.....

Who cares? Just do the best you can as a human being - become a doctor for the right reasons - and everything will fall in place. There is no need to defend where you went to school, etc...

For all the premeds who are choosing a medical school from multiple admissions, take a careful look at the match list- it is very important to see where most grads are winding up. It is also important to find out the specialties. Derm, plastics, urology, orthopaedics and ent are considered to be the most competitive specialties.

Thx for the insight.

 

[DbDan]

Good stuff- you'll probably wind up in ortho! There is a running joke about ortho index where you add up step 1 + bench and can then figure out whether or not someone is competitive enough for ortho. It kinda makes sense- I had to pull traction a 340 lb woman with a femoral shaft fracture - I definitely broke a sweat pulling on that leg as hard as I could.

"Orthopedic surgeons, who are allegedly as strong as an ox and twice as smart, or was that as smart as an ox and twice as strong?" -- Mark Niemer

Ortho is the goal currently 👍 Always liked it. We'll see how it goes once I get into school though. I work on the Ortho floor in my epilepsy unit and I've been told by a handful of RNs that I'll probably wind up ortho because of my workout habits

 

[DbDan]

I COMPLETELY AGREE. However, there is one poster in this forum who doesn't believe in facts and believes them to be "off." He would rather believe what people tell him about their scores on the interview trail. You can't convince him or others like him with inferiority complexes.

🙄 Nice jab at Jagger. Fact of the matter is he along with many could have gotten into an MD. Just because someone believes that DO is starting to become as competitive as some MD does not mean they have an inferiority complex. Fact of the matter is there IS an overlap and regardless of grades you are always going to see intelligent people at every school who could have been at any other MD/DO had the chips fallen differently. Who cares what the averages are, so what if DOs take some people of lower stats and weigh down their averages. Are they successful physicians? Are they helping people? Yes. Get over the numbers and realize that the training is virtually equivalent.

 

[basupran]

Ortho is the goal currently 👍 Always liked it. We'll see how it goes once I get into school though. I work on the Ortho floor in my epilepsy unit and I've been told by a handful of RNs that I'll probably wind up ortho because of my workout habits

Nice- good luck with it man! Feel free to PM me if you have any questions.

 

[christina30]

Classic...



Yes, but you bolded a very select part... come on now, you're in med school, you know what you did, it's not hard to figure out.

As for the grade replacement not being an issue. Sure, maybe it isn't, but if every applicant had as many retakes as I did that resulted in a 0.3 boost in GPA (and I only retook 7 courses (all C's --> A's) from my undergrad years) then it would really have a substantial effect on the reported GPA's of matriculating students.

Also, as far as the Western students are concerned, just because they made it in there doesn't mean they're anything better than what other schools produce. Where I work we get a lot of DO and MD students from WesternU, other DO schools, and OHSU rotating and the difference is indistinguishable. I would not agree ever that higher GPA/MCAT numbers make better physicians. However, I do think that more mature applicants and those with previous real patient experience do make better students in years 3 and 4. It's very obvious which students are stepping into a clinical setting for the first time and which ones have worked in healthcare before and have a feel for the environment a little, but even that smooths out in a few months... it just happens to be July again and this month the students are hilariously inept

Only 7? That's a lot compared to the average pre-med, imho. I didn't retake anything, and I think the majority of pre-meds are in the same boat, or retook 1 or 2 courses at most.

In fact, I don't think most pre-meds are even aware of the differences between AMCAS and AACOMAS regarding grade replacement policies. I know I wasn't.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Just FYI ... There ARE people (as small as the percentage might be) who preferred DO schools over MD schools after an MD acceptance.

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/AppRpt2009.pdf

& these are just the people who responded to this survey.

Good work. Finally some data. This shows that there is obviously overlap in stats and applicants. Of those who responded almost 70% applied to both. Just under 10% chose DO over the MD school they got into.

I disagree. When schools like CCOM, Western, UMDNJ boast averages of 3.5-3.6/28-29 and Allo schools are posting 3.6/30-31 ... the fact is that there is overlap and the pools are not too far off. Frankly, I've always felt like DO averages were "off" (for reasons I could get into ... but don't want to unless necessary) and saw many people on the interview trail with the standard 3.5/30 who had interviewed at both, etc.

While I agree that there is overlap (as the previous link shows) I don't think your numbers are accurate.

CCOM has an MCAT of 27
http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission/IL_Osteopathic_Medicine.html shows an MCAT of 27

Western has an average MCAT of 27.87
http://prospective.westernu.edu/assets/prospective/osteopathic/comp-demographics.pdf

 

[DbDan]

Good work. Finally some data. This shows that there is obviously overlap in stats and applicants. Of those who responded almost 70% applied to both. Just under 10% chose DO over the MD school they got into.



While I agree that there is overlap (as the previous link shows) I don't think your numbers are accurate.

CCOM has an MCAT of 27
http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_and_Admission/IL_Osteopathic_Medicine.html shows an MCAT of 27

Western has an average MCAT of 27.87
http://prospective.westernu.edu/assets/prospective/osteopathic/comp-demographics.pdf

Western's averages for the class Entering Aug 2009 were 3.56/28, right in line with what Jagger said... furthermore competition increases each year

http://prospective.westernu.edu/osteopathic/competitive

 

[JaggerPlate]

Western's averages for the class Entering Aug 2009 were 3.56/28, right in line with what Jagger said... furthermore competition increases each year

http://prospective.westernu.edu/osteopathic/competitive

Thanks. And just FYI to people who are commenting on the numbers I threw out ... to my knowledge, they are all from the 09-10 (aka 2014) cycle. I'm not surprised at all that certain schools may have older averages on their website. Also, I really, really could rant for a long time about the general 'DO' gpa/mcat average compared to the average MD. It's really not even a difficult argument to make and I've done it so many times on these forums that you can probably access it easily.

Also, I always think it's funny when people assume I'm a loon or some hardcore osteopath/MD reject for defending DO schools. It's kind of sad in general that most people would rather take a lot of unfounded jabs opposed to standing up for something they worked really hard to achieve. Furthermore, none of my arguments are that insane. All I've ever advocated is that:

1. Lots of people (myself included) chose a med school based on factors like fit, location, cost, proximity to family/other important aspects of life. Etc, for many people (especially non-trads with families) these schools happened to be DO schools. Frankly, I think this makes far, far more sense than assuming everyone was just dying to go MD and is some wanna-be reject.

2. There are overlaps in stats. This isn't crazy people. I personally had a 30+ MCAT, check DbDan's MDApps right now ... he also had a 30+ MCAT, look at chinochino ... he interviewed at both. Those are just people who posted on this page in this thread. There is overlap and it happens.

3. Some of the oldest, most well-regarded schools (PCOM, KCOM) do not have the highest averages. I know for a fact KCOM received around 3,500+ applications for 160 seats, so it's highly competitive, but clearly some of these schools are looking for other factors. I find it highly unlikely that with all the competition, PCOM, for example, couldn't have filled it's seats with 3.6/29-30+ applicants all day long. However, they chose not to. Interpret that however you will.

So some people will continue to get angry at me, accuse me of silly things, act absurdly immature in general, etc, etc. However, the fact of the matter is that I'm extremely grateful and proud to attend a DO school and feel 100% confident in my choice. I really don't think any member on this forum should waste a second of their lives defending their choices to 18 year old kids who have such a poor grasp on reality, the big picture, life, etc, it's shocking (unless they want to share).

 

[TJ87]

At least I don't care about what people think of me, Serenade...I really am not lying. All of you SDNers who freak out when someone goes DO over MD need to get over yourselves. The profession of medicine is more than a degree to me.

 

[mechanictodr]

Just FYI ... There ARE people (as small as the percentage might be) who preferred DO schools over MD schools after an MD acceptance.

http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/Documents/AppRpt2009.pdf

& these are just the people who responded to this survey.

Nice post... I'm sure Jagger or Christina will say that it's statistically insignificant, but I think this was nicely presented. From those that responded 70% applied US MD 23% gained acceptancce to US MD and of that 23% nearly 89% chose US MD.

So yes, some people may choose DO over MD but of those that have the option it's about 1 in 10 that make that choice.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Nice post... I'm sure Jagger or Christina will say that it's statistically insignificant, but I think this was nicely presented. From those that responded 70% applied US MD 23% gained acceptancce to US MD and of that 23% nearly 89% chose US MD.

So yes, some people may choose DO over MD but of those that have the option it's about 1 in 10 that make that choice.

Lol, I didn't see that post before. Just opened the document and don't have the energy to go through it. Maybe I'll claim it's "statistically insignificant" at a later date.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Ugh, went through the document ... a few things I want to bring up

1. In August 2009, a brief online survey was sent to all 12,6171 applicants who completed an AACOMAS application to any of the 24 AACOMAS participating colleges of osteopathic medicine or their three branch campuses. The response rate for the survey was 21.4 percent (2,701 respondents).

-Not great numbers to being with. Granted, 50% is considered a good reply for "mail in" surveys, but this is why many, many people consider them to be biased.

2. The mean total MCAT score of those respondents who were offered admission to an osteopathic medical school was 27.3

Mean total GPA was 3.50 for those applicants who were offered admission to osteopathic medical schools

Mean GPA and MCAT for those admitted to both (in this survey): 3.56/28.9

-aka overlap (essentially my point this entire argument)

3. The geographic location of the medical school was the top reason given by both osteopathic (59 percent) and U.S. allopathic (55 percent) matriculants for choosing the school in which they enrolled. The college’s approach to learning and its reputation were highly ranked by all respondents

-Wish I would have thought of that.

4. 30% of all DO applicants (who responded) did not apply (whatsoever) to MD schools.

-Again, this goes to show that there are people out there ... for whatever reason ... who strictly want to go DO. It's pretty much impossible to extrapolate the "why" from the survey, but those people are out there in significant numbers.

5. 26% of people who applied to both were admitted to both (MD and DO)

-Again, over a quarter of the applicants who responded were admitted to both ... which leads me to believe there is an overlap in the applicant pool (aka people aren't sliding into DO school by the skin of their teeth).

6. 10% (9.6) were offered admission to both and chose DO

-Frankly, I don't find this surprising in the least. I don't think I ever stated that people frequently chose DO over MD, but this data confirms that it does happen about 10% of the time ... which is more than the 'never' asserted by 90% of the people in this thread AND people do state things like "location," "learning style" etc as their reasoning in the survey (another point I've been advocating the entire time).

7. Of the people who were admitted to both, 39% of individuals chose their school because it was MD, whereas 55% chose it based on location, and 40% chose it based on learning style.

-Again, just going to show that people chose schools for a variety of reasons and, according to the study, less than 40% of people chose the MD school for the MD.

Again, I'm not trying to say crazy things here or dispute data. I'm not going to argue that the study doesn't explain that US MD admission standards are currently higher or that when given the chance, the vast majority of people chose MD. My ENTIRE point in this argument has essentially been that there is an overlap in the applicant pool (the study showed this on numerous occasions), people chose schools for a variety of factors - location, learning style, etc (the study showed this on multiple occasions), people have the option of both (1 in 4 in this study) and a small number of them pick DO.

 

[JaggerPlate]

As an aside ... I feel like I'm starting to cross a line from clearing up misconception to feeling like I need to defend the DO degree because it's inferior or something ... which is completely not what I want to do. I think I've made my points in this thread, and I don't really feel the need to respond any further.

People pick schools for a variety of reasons (location, cost, educational experience, etc), and the applicant pool for MD and DO is mixed. People get into both, and I congratulate everyone who gets in/make no judgments for choosing one path above another. However, no one who chooses DO should feel anything but pride and confidence in their decision and don't let anonymous SDNers make you feel any differently.

Good night!

 

[christina30]

As an aside ... I feel like I'm starting to cross a line from clearing up misconception to feeling like I need to defend the DO degree because it's inferior or something ... which is completely not what I want to do. I think I've made my points in this thread, and I don't really feel the need to respond any further.

People pick schools for a variety of reasons (location, cost, educational experience, etc), and the applicant pool for MD and DO is mixed. People get into both, and I congratulate everyone who gets in/make no judgments for choosing one path above another. However, no one who chooses DO should feel anything but pride and confidence in their decision and don't let anonymous SDNers make you feel any differently.

Good night!

👍

My only point is really that the average pre-med isn't the same as the average SDN-er, hence why I think it's so hard for posters here to believe that someone may be crazy enough to choose DO over MD.

I was more concerned about staying in the New York metro area, in a school where I'd be happiest, than about the initials after my name, and a lot of others feel that way.

And finally, I love how Jagger and I are always lumped together as some pair of DO zealots. It's pretty funny, imho!

 

[mspeedwagon]

Let me start by answering your question. There are definitely those that have DO at as their first choice, but often these are not the same applicants that have a realistic shot at the Top 20 M.D. as their first choice. There are few that would debate between Stanford Medical School and Rocky Vista (extreme example). Also, about 1/3 of D.O. applicants are M.D. rejects (taken from wikipedia).

Now, if you have read my posts, you know that I actually have D.O. as my first choice. But, there are reasons.
- With a 3.6cGPA/3.5 (likely combined with a 30 on the MCAT), I'm a much stronger applicant for D.O. schools (might get into an MD school, but unlikely in the areas I want to be).
- In the areas I want to live in (CA, FL, AZ), I'm a good candidate for the D.O. schools in these regions.
- I already have an Ivy League undergraduate education and whenever prestige is important, I'm an Ivy League graduate.

So stats and geographical considerations make DO my top choice. But again, it's not like Stanford Medical School is even realistic for me.

I think, as one of the posters above said, if you choose DO based solely on the philosophy, you'll be bitterly disappointed. The cirriculum is becoming pretty similiar at MD and DO schools.

If you are single, geographically flexible and have good stats, then consider both M.D. and D.O. schools. Decide based on other factors (not just D.O. vs M.D.).

 

[Instatewaiter]

Western's averages for the class Entering Aug 2009 were 3.56/28, right in line with what Jagger said... furthermore competition increases each year

http://prospective.westernu.edu/osteopathic/competitive

And if you click the link at the bottom of the page that says, "complete Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine Class of 2013 demographics" you get non-rounded data that shows it is 27.87.

When someone says the averages are 28-29 to make a point and not a single of the 3 listed schools even has an average equal to 28, even on their websites, well it looks foolish

3 out of 10 already chose DO over MD from the beginning. Of that remaining 7 out of 10, 23% gained admission to both and another 1 out of 10 chose DO.

That data can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

For instance, those 3 out of 10 could have had stats so low they knew they couldnt get into MD and were told by their advisors not to even waste their money applying. Who knows, we don't have all of the story.

 

[JaggerPlate]

That data can be interpreted in a variety of ways.

For instance, those 3 out of 10 could have had stats so low they knew they couldnt get into MD and were told by their advisors not to even waste their money applying. Who knows, we don't have all of the story.

I thought the same thing initially ... but it's really hard to extrapolate the "why" from the data, you know???

 

[JaggerPlate]

And finally, I love how Jagger and I are always lumped together as some pair of DO zealots. It's pretty funny, imho!

Hahahaha, I know.

Me/You: Yeah, I'm happy to go to a DO school. They're a great option and really set students up well.

SDN: You two are a bunch of lightning bone settin' MD rejects! We hate you.

LOL.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I thought the same thing initially ... but it's really hard to extrapolate the "why" from the data, you know???

I completely agree. Unless they actually ask why, we won't ever know.

 

[Nasrudin]

I find this subject interesting. Probably because I struggled so hard with it.

And I am, paradoxically, the opposite side of the coin that jagger is tossing out there. And therefore a corollary to his argument

I refused to apply to apply to DO schools despite being corralled by the groupthink into doing so as it would be my best hope for an admission to medical school as someone with a low gpa--3.28 cum. That's offensive to everyone. So I agree with a natural inclination against it--the notion that one thing is poor by association of whatever less than is being measured. Especially in a culture at large--the premed one--that maintains such obscene metrics. Imposed partly, but partly self-propagated as well.

I am set to go to an MD school with a lower gpa and MCAT average than many of the DO schools being referenced in this thread. And chose if for reasons of location, cost, and 3rd/4th year set up. For example it is essential criteria to me that a medical school owns or has some exclusivity relationship with it's own teaching hospital. This combination of location and teaching hospital knocked out many DO schools right out of my consideration. (Cost knocked out a bunch more) Despite the notion that I was much more competitive for them and that DO schools would be more likely to look past my gpa issues. In the same way that some of these DO's looked past other notions that did not pertain to them and chose to go DO. They are both the mark of grown people who know what the f@ck there doing with themselves in their career. As it is and will always be our own and no one else's to manage.

What that brings me to, which the OP implies, and Sylvanthus implicates, is the silly notion that DO should be one's first choice on some psuedo-philosophical basis. This is a pitiable situation. Woefully mislead.

Which brings me to the last reason I chose not even to apply to DO schools. The psuedo-philosophy police that patrol the admissions gaming into them. I find them to be uniquely midwestern in the worst way. Self-righteous, pious fools. On a mission to nowhere. As there is no difference between a practicing DO and an MD. As we see it in the real world. And not in these museums of mid-western culture. That have long since outlived their once useful purpose. I submit this to the OP. For the purpose of impetus to no longer be pitiable. To see herself as a PD would--as someone to potentially hire for a job.

The sooner the better for her sake.

 

[PureMotivation]

I applied to both. Was competitive at both. My GPA was above average for both MD and DO but my MCAT is slightly below average for MD schools.

I forget who was talking about it, but research has nothing to do with MD vs DO. Your lab skills have little correlation with mcat or GPA. I have proven my capabilities in the lab far beyond what many of my fellow students have done who were accepted to MD schools.

 

[CookDeRosa]

I find this subject interesting. Probably because I struggled so hard with it.

And I am, paradoxically, the opposite side of the coin that jagger is tossing out there. And therefore a corollary to his argument

I refused to apply to apply to DO schools despite being corralled by the groupthink into doing so as it would be my best hope for an admission to medical school as someone with a low gpa--3.28 cum. That's offensive to everyone. So I agree with a natural inclination against it--the notion that one thing is poor by association of whatever less than is being measured. Especially in a culture at large--the premed one--that maintains such obscene metrics. Imposed partly, but partly self-propagated as well.

I am set to go to an MD school with a lower gpa and MCAT average than many of the DO schools being referenced in this thread. And chose if for reasons of location, cost, and 3rd/4th year set up. For example it is essential criteria to me that a medical school owns or has some exclusivity relationship with it's own teaching hospital. This combination of location and teaching hospital knocked out many DO schools right out of my consideration. (Cost knocked out a bunch more) Despite the notion that I was much more competitive for them and that DO schools would be more likely to look past my gpa issues. In the same way that some of these DO's looked past other notions that did not pertain to them and chose to go DO. They are both the mark of grown people who know what the f@ck there doing with themselves in their career. As it is and will always be our own and no one else's to manage.

What that brings me to, which the OP implies, and Sylvanthus implicates, is the silly notion that DO should be one's first choice on some psuedo-philosophical basis. This is a pitiable situation. Woefully mislead.

Which brings me to the last reason I chose not even to apply to DO schools. The psuedo-philosophy police that patrol the admissions gaming into them. I find them to be uniquely midwestern in the worst way. Self-righteous, pious fools. On a mission to nowhere. As there is no difference between a practicing DO and an MD. As we see it in the real world. And not in these museums of mid-western culture. That have long since outlived their once useful purpose. I submit this to the OP. For the purpose of impetus to no longer be pitiable. To see herself as a PD would--as someone to potentially hire for a job.

The sooner the better for her sake.

Well, I'm from the Midwest, so I'll give you that....and just because it's bugging me, it's ps-eu-do.

 

[RevDoc]

I completely agree. Unless they actually ask why, we won't ever know.

I can give my own "why" I chose DO over 2 MD acceptances.

I chose first based on family/location (Draw). Second based on rotations/classes (Draw again). Third based on money (Draw again). And last based on networking through the surgeon I shadow (DO it is).

InState can verify my agonizing over the decision (via our PMs) - but that was mainly due to the premed mindset and frenzy that is created here on SDN.

Once my decision was final, I never felt better nor more sure about my decision to go DO over MD.

 

[willen101383]

I can give my own "why" I chose DO over 2 MD acceptances.

I chose first based on family/location (Draw). Second based on rotations/classes (Draw again). Third based on money (Draw again). And last based on networking through the surgeon I shadow (DO it is).

InState can verify my agonizing over the decision (via our PMs) - but that was mainly due to the premed mindset and frenzy that is created here on SDN.

Once my decision was final, I never felt better nor more sure about my decision to go DO over MD.

Are you older or a traditional premed? I am a bit older than most..although not totally older. I had the option to go to an MD program in the states but chose to stay here for similar reasons. My girlfriend (dating 4 years) and I just bought a house together here, she has a solid job shes been at for 2 years, my aunt and uncle live here, all my friends/business contacts ive made over the past 3 years live here...and I didnt want to give that all away just to get an MD...especially knowing that DOs...especially from my school..are just as highly regarded as any of the MDs in my area. I have no plans on moving out of the NE, I have no plans of practicing in some obscure 3rd world country, and have learned enough life skills since college that the opinions of others really dont have any bearing on what I do anymore, (within reason of course)

I feel like age definitely plays a role in which school you choose. When you are a 21 year old senior in college who is single and has had mommy and daddy footing the bill for you since birth, its a hell of a lot easier to just pick up and move wherever you want, and you are much more subject to the opinions of others (parents, misinformed premeds on SDN, tough guy douche allo kids hell bent on keeping DOs on the bottom shelf)

 

[VeeTeeHokies]

My strategy has always been to go with the school that you feel you assimilate the best with. My top choice is a DO school, 2nd is an MD, and 3rd and 4th are DO schools. If I get into my top choice and my state MD school, I must admit I will have a difficult decision to make because money will become a factor. I also did some shadowing with a guy who was set on DO as his father and uncle were both DOs. Everybody has their reasons as to whether they prefer MD or DO. Unfortunately for some that choose MD, that reason is either misguidance or ignorance (in the strictest sense of the word) due to some of the things they read around SDN.

 

[Isoprop]

Which brings me to the last reason I chose not even to apply to DO schools. The psuedo-philosophy police that patrol the admissions gaming into them. I find them to be uniquely midwestern in the worst way. Self-righteous, pious fools. On a mission to nowhere. As there is no difference between a practicing DO and an MD. As we see it in the real world. And not in these museums of mid-western culture. That have long since outlived their once useful purpose. I submit this to the OP. For the purpose of impetus to no longer be pitiable. To see herself as a PD would--as someone to potentially hire for a job.

In my conversations with DO schools admissions and faculty, there is no police making sure every pre-DO is indoctrinated into DO philosophy. The so-called tenets of osteopathic medicine unites the profession but it does not identify it. It would be hard to find an MD physician who would disagree with the DO philosophy even if they are not taught it explicitly in their school or training.

So why do adcoms care? Well, DOs have a unique history and my guess is that adcoms just want to make sure you are familiar w/ it. It's what unites the profession so if you want to become a DO, you should have some basic idea of where the profession has come from. If you have no idea what a DO is at a DO school interview, it shows lack of interest and foresight on your part.

So at least the schools who I have talked to, DO adcoms agree that there is no concrete difference between MDs and DOs practice (aside from OMT) and training. Of course, exceptions with people do exist, but this has been my observation for the most part.

 

[Scarletblack]

Lol I've had 3 operations in the past year, two of which were by DOs.

I dunno, but I tend to like this DO path now. I mean the doctors that I got treated by were awesome people.

 

[Dr Oops]

When you guys start med school, md vs do will change to good doc or bad doc.

As for the philosophy, it isn't some crazy doctrine and it won't rule your life in medschool. If you agree with he philosophy it's up to YOU to in corporate it. Schoolwise it's subtle, but in other classes especially in omm(if u got the right teacher) they will integrate things for you and remind of things u have forgotten. The philosophy is also brought sometimes to expound on that point.

As for sacrificing learning other science for omm, well there will always be sacrificies in ur studying even just in the "hard sciences". Some people will focus more on pharm others on biochem etc. But when ur learning omm, you r also reinforcing your knowledge of he musculoskeletal system and anatomy.

Omm is pretty cool stuff. Some of the zealots will want to cure everything wit omm, most know it has it's place. It's hard to see how good a tool it is when u practice on each other(people with no dysfunction). Although after hours of studying it's great to get some hvla

ultimately the md do thing is more a pre med thing. Like others have said it's sad that people bicker about this when there are more serious threats to both mds and dos

 

[JaggerPlate]

Like others have said it's sad that people bicker about this when there are more serious threats to both mds and dos

👍 👍

 

[COMedic2Doc]

When you guys start med school, md vs do will change to good doc or bad doc.

As for the philosophy, it isn't some crazy doctrine and it won't rule your life in medschool. If you agree with he philosophy it's up to YOU to in corporate it. Schoolwise it's subtle, but in other classes especially in omm(if u got the right teacher) they will integrate things for you and remind of things u have forgotten. The philosophy is also brought sometimes to expound on that point.

As for sacrificing learning other science for omm, well there will always be sacrificies in ur studying even just in the "hard sciences". Some people will focus more on pharm others on biochem etc. But when ur learning omm, you r also reinforcing your knowledge of he musculoskeletal system and anatomy.

Omm is pretty cool stuff. Some of the zealots will want to cure everything wit omm, most know it has it's place. It's hard to see how good a tool it is when u practice on each other(people with no dysfunction). Although after hours of studying it's great to get some hvla

ultimately the md do thing is more a pre med thing. Like others have said it's sad that people bicker about this when there are more serious threats to both mds and dos

👍👍👍👍👍 Ahhh for the day when pre-Meds start maturing and realizing that there are real issues involved in Medicine beyond the initials that follow one's name.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Omm is pretty cool stuff. Some of the zealots will want to cure everything wit omm, most know it has it's place. It's hard to see how good a tool it is when u practice on each other(people with no dysfunction). Although after hours of studying it's great to get some hvla

I'm sure it also has other great applications for after study hours. 😀

 

[nlax30]

I'm sure it also has other great applications for after study hours. 😀

A little pelvic inlet myofascial release never hurt anyone....... 😉 Secrets of the trade.

 

[MSUSpartan642]

Lol I've had 3 operations in the past year, two of which were by DOs.

I dunno, but I tend to like this DO path now. I mean the doctors that I got treated by were awesome people.

The DO "path" did not make these doctors better. If they were MD's they would have most likely been equally competent. The individual is what makes the doctor not the title (MD/DO). If you enjoy and want to learn OMM I think that is what should draw you to osteopathic over allopathic.

 

[mechanictodr]

The DO "path" did not make these doctors better. If they were MD's they would have most likely been equally competent. The individual is what makes the doctor not the title (MD/DO). If you enjoy and want to learn OMM I think that is what should draw you to osteopathic over allopathic.

So many people say that you should have an interest in OMM if you apply to a DO school. I don't agree with this at all. Should you have a strong interest in histology or embryology as well? OMM is just a course like any other and like it or not you will take it if you attend a DO school. I don't think having an interest in something should be a prequalifier to deciding on something when in the end it's something you'll likely never use.

For example. I applied to two engineering schools for undergrad. Got into both. One required some biblical studies and the other women's studies. I chose the second school because of price. I rarely paid any attention in women's studies and to this day that course was a hoop and nothing more. School's know you want a degree, and that you will need to to through them to get said degree, so if you want it you'll have to dance when they say. OMM is just another course.

Get ready to dance some more.