Is it likely that some dental schools will not survive COVID?

[Japo237]

What dental schools do you think are most at risk of going bankrupt or closing permanently due to the loss of income from COVID?

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[ToothJockey]

Is it bad if I say I hope some schools do close down?

They've been opening dental schools faster than Mcdonalds has been opening restaurants lol, it's getting ridiculous now

 

[Racquetball3r]

What dental schools do you think are most at risk of going bankrupt or closing permanently due to the loss of income from COVID?

I’m sure Dental Schools took somewhat of a financial hit during COVID, but maybe not as much as you think. Operating costs dropped precipitously for a few months while quarantines were in full swing, and students were still paying the same tuition, which is where most of the money comes from anyway.

 

[Dochopeful13]

What dental schools do you think are most at risk of going bankrupt or closing permanently due to the loss of income from COVID?

Why would they go bankrupt when they are still filling their classes? If anything tuition will keep going up.

 

[lwergod]

Is it bad if I say I hope some schools do close down?

They've been opening dental schools faster than Mcdonalds has been opening restaurants lol, it's getting ridiculous now

like 7/10 of the new schools that sprung up in the last decade are osteopathic medical school institutions. Roseman, AT, Midwestern, New England, etc.

You know what they all have in common? insanely high tuition, >120 seats per class, and low GPA/DAT (3.4/19). ADA needs to change accredation standards so that only traditional universities can gain accreditation, we don't need these garbage professional schools that take advantage of the federal student loans.

More D.O. schools keep popping up like McD's as well. However, for physicians they have to go thru residency so that won't be detrimental to their field as it will be for dentistry. Especially since DO residencies will be merging with the allopathic system. I'm hoping when that goes into effect, their match rate will become exposed as atrociously low and thus forcing many DO schools to shut down (but then again, a 33% true match rate doesn't stop people from going to the Caribbean for MD school). Maybe that will stop them from also opening up new dental schools in the future as well.


all it takes is a few bad schools to ruin the field for everyone.

 

[SunBakedTrash]

It’s all part of the plan. You’re easier to control when you’re a commodity. Complain too much and they’ll replace you with the guy with a ton of debt willing to work for 75% of what you make.

 

[charlestweed]

Is it bad if I say I hope some schools do close down?

They've been opening dental schools faster than Mcdonalds has been opening restaurants lol, it's getting ridiculous now

For people who have good stats like you, they hope so. But for people who don't have good stats and desperately want to become a dentist, they want the opposite to happen......more new schools that are opened means more seats will be available and higher chance of getting in. The more expensive the schools are, the higher the chance for them to get into these schools because most students with good stats will pick the cheaper state schools. I remember when I applied for ortho, I tried to avoid competing against the top ranked students in their classes because I knew would have zero chance to beat them for a spot. To increase my chance, I applied to more expensive programs (NYU, USC, UOP, BU, Tufts, Northwestern etc), to New Jersey ortho (I think it is now called Rutgers) that charged very high application fee, and to a brand new unknown program (NOVA).

 

[scoopdaboop]

More D.O. schools keep popping up like McD's as well. However, for physicians they have to go thru residency so that won't be detrimental to their field as it will be for dentistry. Especially since DO residencies will be merging with the allopathic system. I'm hoping when that goes into effect, their match rate will become exposed as atrociously low and thus forcing many DO schools to shut down (but then again, a 33% true match rate doesn't stop people from going to the Caribbean for MD school). Maybe that will stop them from also opening up new dental schools in the future as well.

Merger already happened. You can see outcomes of match for DO students here:

https://mk0nrmp3oyqui6wqfm.kinstacdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/Charting-Outcomes-in-the-Match-2020_DO-Senior_final.pdf

However, the match rate will never be 33 percent for any DO program in totality. Individually for some specialties, yes.

But, idk how that will stop new dental schools from popping up either. Here's what will happen - new DO schools will force students to primary care, which a lot of seats go unfilled yearly so match rates still look decent. These new DO schools, money hungry turds, will also open a dental school. Dental school tuition, arbitrarily high, will probably keep running even if the medical school shuts down.

 

[oralcare123]

Nothing is going to happen.
Schools get help from government and funny online teaching costs the same as real one a year ago.
They will kick out some old faculty based on safety concerns - semiretired ones are not going to object and save money this way
Stuff costs are reduced as well. Since it is so much effort now to get treatment, majority of patients are serious and are not going to waste schools resources.
Vaccine will be available soon

 

[Cold Front]

Well, not sure if this was already mentioned, but Tufts dental school just laid off 77 employees this week. Another 118 will get their hours cut, retire or will voluntarily depart.

More schools will follow, as the payroll stimulus money runs out for most employers next month or 2. Plus remote learning is not going anywhere anytime soon... so expect many dental schools to downsize their faculty and staff in the coming months.

Tufts laying off employees due to coronavirus shutdown’s impact on dental clinics

Tufts University School of Dental Medicine in Boston is laying off 77 employees — and slashing the hours for other workers — after the coronavirus pandemic caused a major budget shortfa…

www.bostonherald.com

 

[Japo237]

Why would they go bankrupt when they are still filling their classes? If anything tuition will keep going up.

A student I spoke to at Columbia said that the school had to open during the pandemic because they were on the verge of going bankrupt. I wanted to know if other schools were in this situation since dentistry has been hard hit

 

[HKSZYU]

Highly doubt any school is going bankrupt in the immediate future. The schools that struggle financially during covid are just going to dramatically increase their tuition over the next few years.

Dental schools aren’t yet struggling to fill their seats, and there are still desperate students willing to pay the ridiculous $100k+ tuition some of these places are charging. I don’t think covid will change that unfortunately.

 

[Cold Front]

The schools that struggle financially during covid are just going to dramatically increase their tuition over the next few years.

That’s interesting. Because the dentist income on average has been falling behind tuition increases for the past decade or so. Last thing students need now plans for more tuition increases.... and create more “$1M+ student loans” club graduates.

 

[FeralisExtremum]

Probably have them finish their 4-year program but stop accepting new classes.

I would think this is usually the case but when Farleigh Dickinson shut down, the students had to transition to other programs.

 

[Blueshirts]

Wow, yea I didn't think of that but it makes sense. Med students don't really "produce" any profits (and sometimes are seen as a (necessary) burden - to train the future generation of physicians)

Dental students are the roadblock to clinical faculty getting their Starbucks at lunch or making it home in time for dinner lol

 

[casprph]

Hi everyone,

As a pharmacist I was curious to see what the other healthcare professions are currently going through and the concerns you have in this thread are exactly what has happened to pharmacy. Here is a video from Paul Tran who explains the same concerns you have in the dental profession. It seems like this is happening in your profession just as it hit mine.

 

[HKSZYU]

That’s interesting. Because the dentist income on average has been falling behind tuition increases for the past decade or so. Last thing students need now plans for more tuition increases.... and create more “$1M+ student loans” club graduates.

Lots of pre-dents (and even some dental students in my class) are still very naive about the financial direction dentistry is going in. They see dentists that graduated 20+ years ago who are now wealthy and think that will be them. They don't realize how much the landscape has changed since then. Or perhaps they do know this, but don't grasp how truly burdensome $500k+ debt is.

Whatever the reason may be, schools like NYU and USC have increased their tuition 5-10% yearly for the past several years. Their total cost of attendance is over $150k/year. Yet they still have no problem filling their classes. If they chose to increase their tuition by an additional 10-15% next year "because of covid", they'd still have applicants begging to pay it.

 

[LegendaryPanda]

Hi everyone,

As a pharmacist I was curious to see what the other healthcare professions are currently going through and the concerns you have in this thread are exactly what has happened to pharmacy. Here is a video from Paul Tran who explains the same concerns you have in the dental profession. It seems like this is happening in your profession just as it hit mine.

I have been following other health professions as well because I have once considered them all. NPs, PAs, MD/DO's all have their problems, but the worst hit is pharmacy.

I have pharmacy friends as well and I feel terrible for all of them. Pharmacy had its 83% acceptance rate, a majority of their schools started waiving PCATs because they can't find students to fill their seats, about 80 schools opened in the last 20 years, 15000 new graduates each year and a majority of them are unemployed, pay went from $50-$60/hr full time to now $35-$55/hr for 30 hours, PG1 and PG2 being completely unhelpful, ton of retail pharmacies are closing down, and much more.

Yes, I agree that Dentistry has it's own problems too and it sucks that they're not getting addressed, but for now, it's not near as bad as pharmacy, although it may be heading that way in the future.

 

[Startingover123]

I know someone who was forced by their parents to attend USC who is looking at 700k debt. They are aware that they'll be making 120k working for some corporate machine that will drain them. This person wants to live in a big city and doesn't want to return home (dentists, in the mid-sized city where I live, can easily make 200k+ but it's not "fancy enough" like NYC/SF.

I think this person grasps the reality but chooses to ignore it thinking "I'll just do IBR for 25 years then pay the tax bomb or maybe bernie-like politician will win and wipe it." They're also not the hard worker type (took the easiest classes, non-science major, one science class at a time, etc.), doesn't want to work more than 32 hours/week, and wants to always be living in a life of luxury, There's nothing wrong with buying fancy goods/cars/clothes, etc with your own money. It's just crazy to me.

As someone going into medicine, I've calculated the worst-case scenario for me is a 500k new private DO school and ending up in Internal med or FM but I'm not afraid to work 20 shifts a month (60 hrs/week) as an IM doc (average is 14 shifts/month or 42 hrs), in order to make ~400-450k/year where I live and pay off my loan in 3-4 years post-tax. Best case scenario? I get into a 200-300k school and match into a more-relaxed/better paying field. I'm already 100% ready to take the worst-case scenario if that's what I can get (I've worked 80 hour weeks before so it's nbd).

What geographic area are you in that dentists make 200 k easily?

 

[Quinque]

Mismanagement, debt, and retribution: The story behind the School of Dentistry’s $38 million debt

As the UW School of Dentistry (SoD) began to rise in rankings, reaching third globally in research, other parts of the school began to decline in staff size and financially.

www.dailyuw.com

This dental school was 38 million in debt even before covid and still open.

 

[lwergod]

Mismanagement, debt, and retribution: The story behind the School of Dentistry’s $38 million debt

As the UW School of Dentistry (SoD) began to rise in rankings, reaching third globally in research, other parts of the school began to decline in staff size and financially.

www.dailyuw.com

This dental school was 38 million in debt even before covid and still open.

the sad ting is, it's the research intensive schools that will be hit the hardest during times of financial uncertainty.

 

[wetvet]

Well, not sure if this was already mentioned, but Tufts dental school just laid off 77 employees this week. Another 118 will get their hours cut, retire or will voluntarily depart.

More schools will follow, as the payroll stimulus money runs out for most employers next month or 2. Plus remote learning is not going anywhere anytime soon... so expect many dental schools to downsize their faculty and staff in the coming months.

Tufts laying off employees due to coronavirus shutdown’s impact on dental clinics

Tufts University School of Dental Medicine in Boston is laying off 77 employees — and slashing the hours for other workers — after the coronavirus pandemic caused a major budget shortfa…

www.bostonherald.com

According to the article their clinics went from treating 625 Patients/day to 12 because they closed their Hygiene Center,, Community Hygiene Program, and Dental Faculty Practice. thus resulting in decrease in Clinical Revenues. What you want to know is in what area did those 77 employees that are being laid off work.

 

[cloth_alert00]

All the new schools seem to be linked with some private osteopath program in the middle of nowhere and charge way more than your traditional powerhouse state schools like UCLA, UMich, UCSF. Seems this is the new trend. If there are new schools opening up they should have gone to state schools so the fees could be more reasonable

 

[dentistrydmd]

All the new schools seem to be linked with some private osteopath program in the middle of nowhere and charge way more than your traditional powerhouse state schools like UCLA, UMich, UCSF. Seems this is the new trend. If there are new schools opening up they should have gone to state schools so the fees could be more reasonable

Only thing is that with state schools there is no opportunity to make big profits