Is it Medical School or Podiatry School/School of Podiatric Medicine

[cool_vkb]

Because then podiatry students will feel entitled to be in consideration for allopathic residencies. Further, what's the point? You have your own national licensing exams that grant you all the practice rights of a podiatrist. Why would you need to be licensed as an allopathic physician?

I guess I don't get it. Or rather, I hope I don't.

In today's healthcare arena, DPMs work close with FM, IM,Orthos,etc and sometimes due to previous educational standards (like those of 1970s,80s) people still think our training is lesser than our MD counterparts and this raises a lot of credibility,referral issues and misunderstandings.

So if we take the same exam as MD counterparts and score side by side with them. It will prove to the MD/DO community our educational standards are same as the education recieved by any other MD. This is more of recognition and parity issue in terms of education given at a Podiatry school compared to medical school, i dont think anyone is looking for non-podiatric residencies.

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[doclm]

The SCPM Class of 2012 is scheduled to take ECR (Essentials of Clinical Reasoning) 1 their first year, but are not scheduled to take ECR 2 their second year.

It was my understanding that you guys do take the 2nd ECR class with the MD's. That's why you guys are taking the ECR in your first year and I thought Dr. T stated that in class. However, let me double check with a couple people and get back to you.

 

[farnsworth]

In today's healthcare arena, DPMs work close with FM, IM,Orthos,etc and sometimes due to previous educational standards (like those of 1970s,80s) people still think our training is lesser than our MD counterparts and this raises a lot of credibility,referral issues and misunderstandings.

So if we take the same exam as MD counterparts and score side by side with them. It will prove to the MD/DO community our educational standards are same as the education recieved by any other MD. This is more of recognition and parity issue in terms of education given at a Podiatry school compared to medical school, i dont think anyone is looking for non-podiatric residencies.

But no one's saying your training is "lesser", it's just different. Which is why you have your own licensing exams, because you are licensed as a different medical professional. And while you may not be "looking for non-podiatric residencies", others likely would.

The bottom line is - you can't just take the USMLE to prove to people you're as smart as an MD. That's not what it's for.

 

[cool_vkb]

But no one's saying your training is "lesser", it's just different. Which is why you have your own licensing exams, because you are licensed as a different medical professional. And while you may not be "looking for non-podiatric residencies", others likely would.

Please visit AGCME website and check the requirements for residency. USMLE & residency are two totally different things. Even if one a DPM manages to get 100% in USMLEs, as per AGCME rules "one needs to graduate from accredited school of medicine or osteopathy school of medicine" and we dont go to that school. So there's no way in the world a DPM might apply to a gynocology residency after he writes USMLE. Thats not even an issue with regards to DPMs who wanna write USMLE.

The bottom line is - you can't just take the USMLE to prove to people you're as smart as an MD. That's not what it's for.

USMLE is precisely for these type of things brother! its an exam one med student takes it to compare his/her knowledge with another med student. thats exactly what some people want to do with DPMs taking USMLE. Go to American orthopedic Foot & ankle soceity (this is the premiere MD orthopedic surgeons Foot & ankle society) and read their public policy statement on Podiatric surgeons. The AOFAS would love to see us write USMLEs in an attempt to compare the educational standars,etc and they even are willing to extend their support and work with us in achieving that dream . So yeah! We can take USMLE to prove people that we are as smart as MD. Its an idea encouraged by MD side and DPM side.if they want USMLE, then so be it USMLE.

Plus, this all in planning. Its not like we are taking it tomorrow. its just a proposal!

 

[farnsworth]

Please visit AGCME website and check the requirements for residency. USMLE & residency are two totally different things. Even if one a DPM manages to get 100% in USMLEs, as per AGCME rules "one needs to graduate from accredited school of medicine or osteopathy school of medicine" and we dont go to that school. So there's no way in the world a DPM might apply to a gynocology residency after he writes USMLE. Thats not even an issue with regards to DPMs who wanna write USMLE.

Believe me, I agree wholeheartedly that merely passing the USMLE does not mean a person should be eligible for an ACGME residency. Yet it would be pretty short-sighted to say that therefore no one will use "passing the USMLE" as ammunition to push for access to ACGME residencies.

You gotta do some research bro! before you post on issues like these. Go to American orthopedic Foot & ankle soceity (this is the premiere MD orthopedic surgeons Foot & ankle society) and read their public policy statement on Podiatric surgeons. The AOFAS would love to see us write USMLEs in an attempt to compare the educational standars,etc and they even are willing to extend their support and work with us in achieving that dream . So yeah! We can take USMLE to prove people that we are as smart as MD. Its an idea encouraged by MD side and DPM side. now no disrespect intended but we would rather go with the official societies and organizations rather than listeing to advises of anonymous people in SDN forum. if they want USMLE, then so be it USMLE.

The only place this "position" I could find is available online is here on SDN...which is obviously not reliable at face value. If you know a reliable source for this position then I can comment on it, but I'm guessing the "research" of which you are so proud was reading it on SDN too.

The point remains - the USMLE should only be taken if you are pursuing a medical license through that route, not as "proof" to anyone (though many DO students do this, the scope of their practice is identical to MD's, thus in my opinion they should be taking it). Licensing exams aren't a game or competition. If it were, I think there'd be more studies showing comparisons between various healthcare providers on each others' licensing exams. The bottom line is: if you want to take the USMLE, then you should be licensed through the NBME. And if they're licensed through the NBME, then what's to stop them from using this as an argument for access to other residencies?

As a side note - I don't appreciate your condescending tone.

Edit: You edited your post to read:

USMLE is precisely for these type of things brother! its an exam one med student takes it to compare his/her knowledge with another med student. thats exactly what some people want to do with DPMs taking USMLE.....if they want USMLE, then so be it USMLE.

Plus, this all in planning. Its not like we are taking it tomorrow. its just a proposal!

Yes, they're to compare one med student to another med student. They're not used to gauge the competency of one profession versus another. Likewise, if I were to take the NBPME Part I and outperform you, does that mean I should get a podiatry residency spot over you? Ortho's a pretty hotly desired field. Are you sure you want all those competitive ortho applicants gunning for your residencies? I hope you are considering the long-term consequences of what you seek.

 

[Danmanwrx]

.

 

[cool_vkb]

The only place this "position" I could find is available online is here on SDN...which is obviously not reliable at face value. If you know a reliable source for this position then I can comment on it, but I'm guessing the "research" of which you are so proud was reading it on SDN too.
.

Dood stop acting so naive. I said you to do a full research on this topic before writing. Dont expect me to spoon feed you like a 3month old. You cant fckin find a thing by going on AOFAS website? Its right there! here's the direct link from AOFAS website.

http://www.aofas.org/userfiles/file/PDF/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf [now this straight from AOFAS website]

Just becoz some xyz anonymous appears on SDN and says "we cannot take USMLE" doesnt means anything. In a professional world you follow organizations and societies or colleges. and they all agree and even encourage this topic.

I dont think you are here for a rational debate. your hurriness in posting things without reading topics or researching is indicating you more of a troll then a serious student looking fo a debate. next time do your homework before you write soemthing.

PS: Please do mention your credentials.

 

[farnsworth]

Dood stop acting so naive. I said you to do a full research on this topic before writing. Dont expect me to spoon feed you like a 3month old. You cant fckin find a thing by going on AOFAS website? Its right there! here's the direct link from AOFAS website.

http://www.aofas.org/userfiles/file/PDF/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf [now this straight from AOFAS website]

Just becoz some xyz anonymous appears on SDN and says "we cannot take USMLE" doesnt means anything. In a professional world you follow organizations and societies or colleges. and they all agree and even encourage this topic.

I dont think you are here for a rational debate. your hurriness in posting things without reading topics or researching is indicating you more of a troll then a serious student looking fo a debate. next time do your homework before you write soemthing.

PS: Please do mention your credentials.

Whoa, I really don't appreciate your hostility. My stance is simply that licensing exams are not meant to stack professions against one another. My stance is that allowing access to each others' licensing exams is unnecessary and could have harmful consequences. That's it. This is an internet forum, I think I'm allowed to post my opinion, regardless of whether it clashes with the official position of an academic society that represents a miniscule fraction of physicians. I've stated my reasons and concerns and I don't think they're at all unreasonable.

If you'd like to continue to attack me, fine, but PM me instead, I don't think people on this board want to watch bickering.

 

[cool_vkb]

Whoa, I really don't appreciate your hostility. My stance is simply that licensing exams are not meant to stack professions against one another. My stance is that allowing access to each others' licensing exams is unnecessary and could have harmful consequences. That's it. This is an internet forum, I think I'm allowed to post my opinion, regardless of whether it clashes with the official position of an academic society that represents a miniscule fraction of physicians. I've stated my reasons and concerns and I don't think they're at all unreasonable.

If you'd like to continue to attack me, fine, but PM me instead, I don't think people on this board want to watch bickering.

You acted like an ignorant person. I gave you the name of organization and everything and you still write that no such thing is there and its just on SDN and iam very proud of it. That pissed me off. You do your homework and then come and write. you are like a kid hurrying to reply without doing any research.

A miniscule fraction of physicians ,you are really ignorant. Its the organizations and societies that make collective effort possible. Who goes to the medicare to negotiate on your behalf when they decide to cut down the rates? Who negitates with the state govt over malpractice issues? or many other things. They do not represent a minuscule fraction. They represent the members of that group.

Please do mention your credentials. the more you write the more it appears you have zero knowledge in the subject. its not worth wasting time explaning someone who has no idea what the heck is going on in real world.

 

[184013]

Cool_VKB, once again you have nominated yourself as the least cordial and most offensive "Mentor" in the forum.
As a pod student I will choose to be helpful on the SDN to assist and support pre-pods.
Your opinions / contributions are clearly in the bottom 5% of all postings, you have continued to show the worst grammar and spelling.. my 8 year old cousin types on her cell phone txt messages with more clarity.
I can visualize you sitting at your computer and cursing in broken English in short-shrill bursts of profanity. I'd have to compare you to "Grendel" and imagine you unable to communicate with anyone thus in pain from the lack of understanding leading you to be such a sad sad little person.

 

[cool_vkb]

Cool_VKB, once again you have nominated yourself as the least cordial and most offensive "Mentor" in the forum.
.

And when did i said iam a Mentor or official representative of this forum

 

[farnsworth]

You acted like an ignorant person. I gave you the name of organization and everything and you still write that no such thing is there and its just on SDN and iam very proud of it. That pissed me off. You do your homework and then come and write. you are like a kid hurrying to reply without doing any research.

I'm sorry that I don't take what's said on SDN as law. Further, even if it was 100% accurate, I disagree with the position. You, however, are the one getting emotional here.

A miniscule fraction of physicians ,you are really ignorant. Its the organizations and societies that make collective effort possible. Who goes to the medicare to negotiate on your behalf when they decide to cut down the rates? Who negitates with the state govt over malpractice issues? or many other things. They do not represent a minuscule fraction. They represent the members of that group.

You obviously have a really good grasp of what a representative organization is, which you should be very proud of.

My point was that 1) AOFAS represents probably one of the smallest groups of physicians nationwide (foot and ankle orthopedists, that is, sounds like you missed that the first time around), 2) the fact that (if) they have established they think it's wise to open up USMLE examinations to other professions, it's a very short-sighted decision. While it may be all fine and dandy for foot and ankle orthopedists, it could be harmful to other specialties. It may be, it may not be, but it sets a harmful precedent. That's what was meant by a "miniscule fraction of physicians". A group representing the interests of a miniscule fraction of physicians has adopted a policy that could set a harmful precedent for the rest of us.

I'm going to keep the personal comments I would like to make about you off of this thread because I don't think it's appropriate. Based on the way you've conducted yourself so far, I am not expecting you to extend me the same courtesy.

 

[cool_vkb]

the fact that (if) they have established they think it's wise to open up USMLE examinations to other professions, it's a very short-sighted decision. While it may be all fine and dandy for foot and ankle orthopedists, it could be harmful to other specialties. It may be, it may not be, but it sets a harmful precedent. That's what was meant by a "miniscule fraction of physicians". A group representing the interests of a miniscule fraction of physicians has adopted a policy that could set a harmful precedent for the rest of us.

AOFAS works in tandem with the main orthopedic organization which inturn works in tandem with AMA. And apart from AOFAS,AMA also has somewhat similar policy with regards to USMLE (i dont have the link with me at this moment, so i cant say 100%) .

but iam still not able to understand? What threat will DPMs taking USMLE will have on other specialities? I mean common! we cannot do residencies or go to medical school. how can this be harmfull. plz help me understand this.

PS: there is red triangle box on your left hand side of the page where you can "report" the user. feel free to use it.

 

[Feli]

...you can't just take the USMLE to prove to people you're as smart as an MD. That's not what it's for.

...http://www.aofas.org/userfiles/file/PDF/AOFAS_Position_Podiatry_3-07_FINAL.pdf [now this straight from AOFAS website] ...

...I disagree with the position...

You guys need to relax. I, like farnsworth, disagree in theory that pod students should take the USMLE since it is a test designed for MD licensing - which pods aren't going for.

That said, if pods taking the USMLE is proposed by an outside organization (ie AMA, AAOS, or AOFAS) and that will help to accomplish parity, then I am in favor of it. That is basically what has happened, so we will see what comes next.

In the end, podiatry's current training in foot and ankle surgery and pathology is rock solid for those who choose to apply themselves. In order to help in getting that fact universally recognized among other medical professionals, I would support any reasonable proposals. The ego BS will never end regardless of whether it's MD v MD, MD v DO, MD v DPM, ets... but, thankfully, I think mutual respect is becoming more and more commonplace...

http://download.journals.elsevierhealth.com/pdfs/journals/1067-2516/PIIS1067251605006587.pdf

 

[cool_vkb]

That said, if pods taking the USMLE is proposed by an outside organization (ie AMA, AAOS, or AOFAS) and that will help to accomplish parity, then I am in favor of it. That is basically what has happened, so we will see what comes next.

I am also trying to explain Mr.farsnworth that demand for USMLE is not just from our side. Its coming from the MD side also. but he outrightly denies the links or info i post for him saying that info doesnt exists outside SDN.

 

[farnsworth]

I am also trying to explain Mr.farsnworth that demand for USMLE is not just from our side. Its coming from the MD side also. but he outrightly denies the links or info i post for him saying that info doesnt exists outside SDN.

You posted a link from the AOFAS site, which I trust is legitimate. I'm not arguing whether this controversy is a myth or not. I'm discussing why I think it's a mistake to use the USMLE that way. I've stated my opinion on this numerous times.

 

[cool_vkb]

You posted a link from the AOFAS site, which I trust is legitimate. I'm not arguing whether this controversy is a myth or not. I'm discussing why I think it's a mistake to use the USMLE that way. I've stated my opinion on this numerous times.

Okie, lets get down to the moral of the story. What exactly is your point regardin USMLE and why do you think its harmfull for other specialities if DPMs take USMLE. Iam sorry for my earlier remarks. my applogies. lets start on a clean slate

 

[farnsworth]

Okie, lets get down to the moral of the story. What exactly is your point regardin USMLE and why do you think its harmfull for other specialities if DPMs take USMLE. Iam sorry for my earlier remarks. my applogies. lets start on a clean slate

They've already been stated. If you have follow-up questions, then I'll comment further.

 

[cool_vkb]

They've already been stated. If you have follow-up questions, then I'll comment further.

nope they're not stated cleary. You just said "its harmfull". explain how it is going to be harmfull.

 

[Sundarban1]

The said AOFAS list seems like an implicit way of saying "Your training and certification is inferior to ours," without empirical evidence or precedent, other than the fact that more DPMs are infringing upon their territory.

I'd like to see out of curiosity any data that suggests that DPMs are less skilled, have a higher adverse incidence rate in x population, etc., vs MDs in FAS, or some related measurable outcome.

We know that podiatric curriculum is not structured so that our students can perform well on the USMLE. Without due reason, I see no rush to change the education system aside from raising the standards within our profession, null of changing certification requirements to please a small fraction of competators.

As far as parity, what does that pan out to for the profession? (Aside from perceived "equality" among professions?) Even then, have we not learned from the DO vs. MD struggle that just because we take the same licensing exams that we will not change or degree or increase respect to the masses?

Without due cause, this can be seen as a mere territory/money dispute disguised as an opportunity for "equality."

Unless this "parity" idea equates to a substantial, measurable, tangible benefit I don't see the point of making DPM students sit for the USMLE. In other words, if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it (even if they tell you it looks uneven.)

 

[cool_vkb]

The said AOFAS list seems like an implicit way of saying "Your training and certification is inferior to ours," without empirical evidence or precedent, other than the fact that more DPMs are infringing upon their territory.

I'd like to see out of curiosity any data that suggests that DPMs are less skilled, have a higher adverse incidence rate in x population, etc., vs MDs in FAS, or some related measurable outcome.

We know that podiatric curriculum is not structured so that our students can perform well on the USMLE. Without due reason, I see no rush to change the education system aside from raising the standards within our profession, null of changing certification requirements to please a small fraction of competators.

As far as parity, what does that pan out to for the profession? (Aside from perceived "equality" among professions?) Even then, have we not learned from the DO vs. MD struggle that just because we take the same licensing exams that we will not change or degree or increase respect to the masses?

Without due cause, this can be seen as a mere territory/money dispute disguised as an opportunity for "equality."

Unless this "parity" idea equates to a substantial, measurable, tangible benefit I don't see the point of making DPM students sit for the USMLE. In other words, if it isn't broke, don't try to fix it (even if they tell you it looks uneven.)

Makes lot of sense. Yeah thats true that most of this is because of territorial issues. And these are just proposals based on the statement of AOFAS. There have been some disputes in texas, florida,etc. Florida went in our favor and texas is still in court. Both the med and pod communities are trying to have a mutaul understanding and good relationship.So USMLE and other steps are bascally intended to remove further misunderstandings from our F &A orthopods regarding our educational level,etc. But you are right that there is still no substantial data or study that proves anything regarding podiatry education level compared to MD FA level and actually some DPMs are now doing a comparitive data study on the number of cases done, succes rates,etc and plan to publish in mainstream medical journals read by both MDs and DPMs. It will be interesting to see how it goes.

 

[farnsworth]

nope they're not stated cleary. You just said "its harmfull". explain how it is going to be harmfull.

You seem to be really struggling with this, so I'll try one last time.

1) What's the point? The USMLE is open to DO's because DO's are eligible for MD residencies. It's not open to anyone else, because no one else is eligible for unlimited scope physician licensure. You've got licensing exams already that allow you to practice as a podiatrist which reflect your distinct training and education. You're only eligible for podiatric residencies, which only use the NBPME exams. Why would it be appropriate to take an exam that doesn't qualify you for a training program that uses it at all?

2) Alright, now let's say that the whole podiatry system switches over to use the USMLE for licensure, residency selection, and the NBPME ceases to exist. A person would have to be pretty naive to think that a clinician who goes to podiatry school for 4 years, which, propaganda from podiatry seems to claim is "the same" as medical school (although at the same time they claim early specialized training, so of course there's an inconsistency) and takes the same licensing exams won't feel entitled to compete for the same residencies open to their physician counterparts in the MD/DO profession. It sounds like a means to an end to me, the end being equality with MD/DO's and the demand for the same opportunities afforded us. You say you don't want access to our residencies, but you'll have to excuse me when I say I don't believe you speak for podiatry students everywhere. We already have DO's in MD spots (when currently we can't apply for DO spots), and there's intense pressure from both the DO camp and the MD camp to combine the matches to reflect the equity we seek. I'm sure the DO's who want to go into neurosurgery won't be happy to see the MD neurosurgery applicants applying to their programs.

3) I'm not qualified for a podiatry residency & you're not qualified for an MD residency. Consider the repercussions of saying that we are. It's harmful to you too. Orthopedics is an extremely highly coveted field. Foot and ankle orthopedics is pretty close to podiatry. What will happen to your residency opportunities when all of a sudden every MD or DO student who wants to go into ortho figures, "ah what the heck, it's close enough", and puts podiatry programs on their match list too? You'll be competing against some pretty strong applicants for your own spots. Are you sure you want to say we're equally qualified and open that door?

4) Let's say that you gain access to MD residencies but don't allow MD applicants into DPM residencies. I see no reason why the MD community should allow that kind of inequity to happen. It's pretty unfair and would be tantamount to saying you're in some way more trained than we are, which is of course ridiculous. Let's both extend each other the courtesy of saying we have different training and neither is qualified for each others' residencies.

In reality, I'm not that worried about having to compete against podiatry students for residency spots, because there are so few of you and frankly, even DO's face an uphill battle in getting MD spots over MD students. And I doubt very many MD/DO students are even interested in podiatry residencies, but that's your concern. Do we really need these concerns when the current system works fine? Is there really a good reason aside from pride and ego to pursue the USMLE? I think it's further interesting that you're pushing to let podiatrists take the USMLE rather than pushing for foot and ankle orthopedists to the NBPME. Do you really have that little faith in the ability of the NBPME to measure competency of podiatrists?

As I understand it, podiatry needs to standardize podiatry state-to-state and scope-to-scope before it sets its ambitions on stacking itself up against other health professions.

 

[184013]

As I understand it, podiatry needs to standardize podiatry state-to-state and scope-to-scope before it sets its ambitions on stacking itself up against other health professions.

Does anyone have more information on this movement, I know it is slightly off topic but I this is a great point. Any info/links would be appreciated~

 

[Sundarban1]

You guys need to relax. I, like farnsworth, disagree in theory that pod students should take the USMLE since it is a test designed for MD licensing - which pods aren't going for.

Exactly.

...if pods taking the USMLE is proposed by an outside organization (ie AMA, AAOS, or AOFAS) and that will help to accomplish parity, then I am in favor of it.

Now why does your opinion change based on what an outside organization pulls out of thin air? If our training is "rock solid" why should we be forced to conform to their standards all of a sudden?

If our patients are receiving excellent care, why change? Can those propositions, insinuating DPM certification/education needs an overhaul, be backed up by any empirical data? I've not seen anything to suggest that current training is lacking, leading to sub-standard care and until I do I would question the motives of any outside organization who is requesting a change in our licensing system.

In order to help in getting that fact universally recognized among other medical professionals, I would support any reasonable proposals.

I can assure you, simply based on the ongoing DO/MD debate, that by simply taking the USMLE, DPMs are not magically going to be recognized among other medical professionals. They are recognized currently, albeit with a grudge from those on whose toes we step. How can they not be recognized while performing a majority of the foot/ankle care in the US you ask?

The answer is economics, plain and simple. DPMs currently control a large portion on foot/ankle care in the US (what is it, over 60% or something?) and nobody on the MD FAS side is pleased (hence this proposition disguised as "parity")

I say focus on increasing our own standards of education; lets focus on getting all 8 (9) schools pass rate above XX %, etc. Let's make sure everyone graduating has a residency spot. Let's not be bothered by those proposed standards by outside organizations with whom we share the same patient population, especially those based on noting more than economics.

 

[Feli]

...if pods taking the USMLE is proposed by an outside organization (ie AMA, AAOS, or AOFAS) and that will help to accomplish parity, then I am in favor of it...

Now why does your opinion change based on what an outside organization pulls out of thin air? If our training is "rock solid" why should we be forced to conform to their standards all of a sudden?

If our patients are receiving excellent care, why change? Can those propositions, insinuating DPM certification/education needs an overhaul, be backed up by any empirical data? I've not seen anything to suggest that current training is lacking, leading to sub-standard care and until I do I would question the motives of any outside organization who is requesting a change in our licensing system.

I can assure you, simply based on the ongoing DO/MD debate, that by simply taking the USMLE, DPMs are not magically going to be recognized among other medical professionals. They are recognized currently, albeit with a grudge from those on whose toes we step. How can they not be recognized while performing a majority of the foot/ankle care in the US you ask?

The answer is economics, plain and simple. DPMs currently control a large portion on foot/ankle care in the US (what is it, over 60% or something?) and nobody on the MD FAS side is pleased (hence this proposition disguised as "parity")

I say focus on increasing our own standards of education; lets focus on getting all 8 (9) schools pass rate above XX %, etc. Let's make sure everyone graduating has a residency spot. Let's not be bothered by those proposed standards by outside organizations with whom we share the same patient population, especially those based on noting more than economics.

What you are saying makes sense, and I agree 100% that we need to focus first and foremost on continuing to advance our own standards within podiatry (boards, research, standard of care, training programs, etc) before worrying about any change based on what any outside group suggests.

That said, the AMA, despite only having a small fraction of MDs, still has a ton of lobby power. I sure don't want to have my scope unfairly limited at some point or have to switch states just because of degree discrimination. If USMLE and/or ACGME for podiatry will prevent that, so be it.

However, you are absolutely right that it could just be a catch-22 of sorts...
If pods won't take the USMLE, their education is inferior.
If pod students do take the USMLE and perform poor, they are inferior.
If they do well, then they are still "just podiatrists, not MDs."

It could be that I'm being naive and taking the "AOFAS is willing to work with the podiatric community for the benefit of patient care" part too literally. It's plainly evident that Saltzman and some F&A ortho want nothing to do with DPMs, but others reference our literature, train our residents/fellows, co-publish, and seem genuinely concerned on patient care.

 

[IPODiatrist]

However, you are absolutely right that it could just be a catch-22 of sorts...
If pods won't take the USMLE, their education is inferior.
If pod students do take the USMLE and perform poor, they are inferior.
If they do well, then they are still "just podiatrists, not MDs."

well put.

 

[Huntr]

 

[KHep]

yes, I would love to know why the 2012 class isn't taking ECR2, but the class of 2011 is. Sounds like there may be mutiny!

 

[TXDO]

A lot of people in their profiles (myspace, facebook, orkut) or emails or correspondance use the term "MEDICAL SCHOOL" (without any reference to Podiatry School). Even though that is 100% true that we attend allopathic school and have full right to say we go to Medical School. But isnt it kind misleading to general public (especially when we post on public sites) when we say we are going to Medical School or done with 1st year of Medical School.

I feel by just using "medical school" we are losing our own identity as Podiatric medical student. A MD first yr who is on my facebook list was kind of irritated when he saw some Pods posting they go to Medical school without even one mention of Podiatric medicine. I mean if someone says they attend Medical School and pursuing podiatry it still make sense but just using "I attend Medical school". how fair is this and acceptable to our MD friends and to general public. yeah general public is not well versed with our degree. but shudnt we be educating them rather than saying we go to Medical school.

Our schools are named "xyz.. school of Podiatric medcine" or "College of Podiatry". So why should we just say "medical school".

Especially now that we are done with 1st year. What do other fellow pod students and residents think abt this topic.I personally never ever use "Medical school" when i describe my career interests. I am proud of what i do and make sure the people around me know what iam doing. I am a Podiatry Student who just finished 1st yr of Podiatric School not a med student who finished 1st year of medical school (just compare these two statemnts).

PS: I'am not discussing the logic of Allopathic medicine here. my stress is "Are we indirectly misleading public by just saying Medical school and not even mentioning one slight hint of Podiatry"?

I am sorry if this sounds harsh on you guys. Allopathic medical school is MD school and that term is used only when it's compared to osteopathic medical school (DO) school. Podiatry and MD schools are never comparable and it's ultimately misled the public for what you are referring. DPM only treats foot and ankles not the whole body so never being considered as allopathic. To me the best way to refer yourself as podiatry students or poditry school.
Thanks

 

[MaseratiGT]

I am sorry if this sounds harsh on you guys. Allopathic medical school is MD school and that term is used only when it's compared to osteopathic medical school (DO) school. Podiatry and MD schools are never comparable and it's ultimately misled the public for what you are referring. DPM only treats foot and ankles not the whole body so never being considered as allopathic. To me the best way to refer yourself as podiatry students or poditry school.
Thanks

Do you know what allopathic means? It's the treatment of disease conventionally. Like rx'ing drugs for signs and symptoms of disease. Allopathic does NOT mean treatment of the entire body.

An antonym for allopathy is homeopathy.

Medical schools and podiatric medical schools are allopathic. Osteopathic medical schools have a part allopathic curriculum. That's why they can treat disease just like an MD can. They are osteopathic because of manipulation modalities also incorporated into their curriculum and philosophy.

 

[iceman69]

It is Podiatry school period. You will graduate with a Doctorate of Podiatric Medicine, not a Medical Doctorate. Hence, you go to podiatry school. Furthermore, stop trying to be something your not, an MD. If you go around telling everyone that Allopathic medicine is akin to homeopathy good luck getting a lot of referrals from your MD colleagues. All DPM students need to accept the fact that they are podiatrists and not percieved as true physicians currently. This is the general perception of our profession. If you don't like that go be an MD. Elsewise, accept it, be happy and go make money. It is disrespectful of DPM students to mislead the public into thinking that they're MD (medical students) because they're not, and furthermore the admissions standards across the board for MD school are so much higher than those set forth for podiatry school, so stop comparing the two because they're like apples and oranges. Podiatry really needs to lose the chip on its shoulder...

 

[dpmPOD]

DPM only treats foot and ankles not the whole body so never being considered as allopathic. To me the best way to refer yourself as podiatry students or poditry school.
Thanks

Thanks for drudging this thread up to make a totally obscure and incorrect point. Your definition of allopathic is pretty far off. We go to podiatry school, but it's very much allopathic.

 

[jonwill]

I can't believe that someone bumped this dinosaur but yes, podiatrists practice evidence-based allopathic medicine.

 

[G0dFather]

You got med students on here that don't even know what allopathic means...ppffff!!!

 

[215512]

podiatric physicians, podiatry school, podiatric surgeons, podiatric medical school...all acceptable in my opinion....note they all include podiatry in the front.

 

[PodunkUDPM]

I am sorry if this sounds harsh on you guys. Allopathic medical school is MD school and that term is used only when it's compared to osteopathic medical school (DO) school. Podiatry and MD schools are never comparable and it's ultimately misled the public for what you are referring. DPM only treats foot and ankles not the whole body so never being considered as allopathic. To me the best way to refer yourself as podiatry students or poditry school.
Thanks

You don't sound "harsh". You sound like a d@mn fool who doesn't know the definition of allopathic. Are you sure you're a medical student?

 

[sanggydaddy81]

I am confused. I go to AZPOD and I have a lot of DO friends. They call me a POD student and they refer themselve as medical students. But all the professors and attendings (MD, DO, DPM) who finished their residencies and fellowships call us medical students. Well, I don't care whatever the hell other people call me as long as I get to alleviate the patients pain and treat them with care.

 

[phillypd]

Well if i may say something,
Both are medical schools, is it not? Yes....maybe a podiatric student should say that they are podiatric students, but it is still medical school. When MD and DO students say things like "stop trying to be a MD or DO" I think that is crazy....Yes their are those who wish they were MD and didn't make it, but others could really care less... And there are some who will act and portray as if they are MD and are not... but to say that "Oh..you don't go to med school" is not true. They are both med schools and although Podiatric students concentrate on the lower body...they do treat the entire body as a whole when treating their specialized parts... I love medicine as a whole and it is very disturbing when one type of physician has an ego as if everyone else strives to be like them... Whether it's MD, ND, DO, or DPM, you go to a med school it's just that MD and DO don't pick a concentration till the end.... As a side note.... ND's schools that are accred. is just the same as MD (as far as i can see) accept you choose to treat people holisticlly and you specialize in primary care....

 

[Darklord]

What is an ND? You mean a DNP?

 

[smartman716]

TXDO you are a troll with second class citizen complex!


Darklord ND stands for Naturopathic doctor. DNP is Doctor of Nursing Practice.

 

[phillypd]

yeah i was very surprised to see the training that ND's go thru......people talk about them like they are quacks......but i have a new respect for them..... exact same courses in yr1 and yr 2 as MD's.....with some extra stuff on herbs..... and they have mostly all the same clinicals...... some are hospital based and others are clinic based..... 4 ys total. i'm shocked......

 

[MaseratiGT]

It is Podiatry school period. You will graduate with a Doctorate of Podiatric Medicine, not a Medical Doctorate. Hence, you go to podiatry school. Furthermore, stop trying to be something your not, an MD. If you go around telling everyone that Allopathic medicine is akin to homeopathy good luck getting a lot of referrals from your MD colleagues. All DPM students need to accept the fact that they are podiatrists and not percieved as true physicians currently. This is the general perception of our profession. If you don't like that go be an MD. Elsewise, accept it, be happy and go make money. It is disrespectful of DPM students to mislead the public into thinking that they're MD (medical students) because they're not, and furthermore the admissions standards across the board for MD school are so much higher than those set forth for podiatry school, so stop comparing the two because they're like apples and oranges. Podiatry really needs to lose the chip on its shoulder...

If you're referring to my post, (I think I was the first one who said anything about homeopathy), I never said the two were akin. The word antonym is an antonym for akin.

Admissions standards don't have anything to do with the title "physician." But for the sake of argument; the standards are what they are now because students don't know about podiatry, so the field isn't as competitive. But every year, at least at Temple, the classes are coming in with higher average GPAs and MCAT scores.

According to your post, D.O. students shouldn't consider themselves medical students then either?!

Your post didn't actually discuss what should really define a medical school program. Not the admissions, or what you think the perception is, but the CURRICULUM. We have schools out there with students sitting side by side with DO students. If the schools are basically teaching the same material, we all know the same amount of material when we graduate, and we all have the same opportunities at residencies when we graduate, then we all attend medical school. Podiatric medical school; but medical school nonetheless.

 

[iceman69]

You analogy is akin to telling everyone you have a sports car when you drive a Mazda Miata. Curriculum doesn't equate to becoming a physician because no matter what you tell yourself you are still a DPM and hence a podiatrist. Regarding the curriculum, it doesn't go into the depth that they reach in medical school. This foolish notion of being entitled to use the title physician needs to stop because you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Would you, if you worked in, or with an orthopaedics group tell your colleagues that you went to medical school? Would you tell them you're a physician or a podiatrist? If yes, I hope they'd laugh at you, and rightfully so because you're not in medical school nor are you a physician.

Lastly, there is still a stigma about becoming a DO. DO school is for people seeking to become some sort of primary care doctor. Many of their surgical residencies are plagued by the same problems as podiatry residencies, low surgical volume, lack of variety, and too few attendings to train the residents to ensure they are exposed to wide range of techniques, opinions, and approaches to patient care. Case in point, how many urologists or ENTs do you know who are DOs who are the doc's in there area that the doctor's wives see?

 

[MaseratiGT]

You analogy is akin to telling everyone you have a sports car when you drive a Mazda Miata. Curriculum doesn't equate to becoming a physician because no matter what you tell yourself you are still a DPM and hence a podiatrist. Regarding the curriculum, it doesn't go into the depth that they reach in medical school. This foolish notion of being entitled to use the title physician needs to stop because you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Would you, if you worked in, or with an orthopaedics group tell your colleagues that you went to medical school? Would you tell them you're a physician or a podiatrist? If yes, I hope they'd laugh at you, and rightfully so because you're not in medical school nor are you a physician.

Lastly, there is still a stigma about becoming a DO. DO school is for people seeking to become some sort of primary care doctor. Many of their surgical residencies are plagued by the same problems as podiatry residencies, low surgical volume, lack of variety, and too few attendings to train the residents to ensure they are exposed to wide range of techniques, opinions, and approaches to patient care. Case in point, how many urologists or ENTs do you know who are DOs who are the doc's in there area that the doctor's wives see?

Dude, you and I could argue semantics all day. I didn't say anything about podiatrists using the term "physician." You extrapolated that argument from using the terms "allopathic" and "medical school." Those are entirely different baskets of eggs, iceman. When you get bogged down in what title you have, or what to call yourself, then you're destined to end up hating your career forever. Patients don't really give a rats-***. All they want is a doctor who can make them better.

 

[devilpup]

I could care less what you guys call yourselves, pod stud vs. med stud. Dont matter, we are both studs. Pathetic thread, hopefully rodney king can close this discussion with his words of wisdom:

 

[mildoc2016]

You analogy is akin to telling everyone you have a sports car when you drive a Mazda Miata. Curriculum doesn't equate to becoming a physician because no matter what you tell yourself you are still a DPM and hence a podiatrist. Regarding the curriculum, it doesn't go into the depth that they reach in medical school. This foolish notion of being entitled to use the title physician needs to stop because you're only setting yourself up for disappointment. Would you, if you worked in, or with an orthopaedics group tell your colleagues that you went to medical school? Would you tell them you're a physician or a podiatrist? If yes, I hope they'd laugh at you, and rightfully so because you're not in medical school nor are you a physician.

Lastly, there is still a stigma about becoming a DO. DO school is for people seeking to become some sort of primary care doctor. Many of their surgical residencies are plagued by the same problems as podiatry residencies, low surgical volume, lack of variety, and too few attendings to train the residents to ensure they are exposed to wide range of techniques, opinions, and approaches to patient care. Case in point, how many urologists or ENTs do you know who are DOs who are the doc's in there area that the doctor's wives see?

isnt it true under the state of OHIO law that podiatrists are seen as 'physicians' in which they can perform their own h and p etc ... if the law says your a physician than thats what you are ......

 

[krabmas]

Lastly, there is still a stigma about becoming a DO. DO school is for people seeking to become some sort of primary care doctor. Many of their surgical residencies are plagued by the same problems as podiatry residencies, low surgical volume, lack of variety, and too few attendings to train the residents to ensure they are exposed to wide range of techniques, opinions, and approaches to patient care. Case in point, how many urologists or ENTs do you know who are DOs who are the doc's in there area that the doctor's wives see?

You will most likely not know who is an MD or DPM or DO just by looking at the docs badge. My hospital badge says MD, many of the DO badges say MD and of course the MD badges say MD. They all list the specialty as well.

You may have to actually search to find out the degree earned. The point of this is - most people don't care once they are practicing. No one treats the whole body anymore, everyone is a specialist and treats what they know and refers everything else.

Call yourself what ever you want as long as you can sleep at night.

I went to podiatry school and when some people try to correct me and say medical school I say no, podiatry school. It is what it is, who cares.

 

[dropfoot]

You will most likely not know who is an MD or DPM or DO just by looking at the docs badge. My hospital badge says MD, many of the DO badges say MD and of course the MD badges say MD. They all list the specialty as well.

You may have to actually search to find out the degree earned. The point of this is - most people don't care once they are practicing. No one treats the whole body anymore, everyone is a specialist and treats what they know and refers everything else.

Call yourself what ever you want as long as you can sleep at night.

I went to podiatry school and when some people try to correct me and say medical school I say no, podiatry school. It is what it is, who cares.

Amen, now this would be a great place to put this dead horse to rest!

 

[TXDO]

changed

 

[TXDO]

TXDO you are a troll with second class citizen complex!

Stop calling people troll because you are not better than them.
Ok, first of all, I want to say that when I compared allopathic to podiatric, I did stated the difference in the scope of practice rather define what they meant. Maybe that led to the misunderstanding. However, I stated the difference correctly, did I. MD practices the whole body while DPM just limits to the foot, ankle... Why everyone in this room is so offensive? Gosh, I just want to clarify why is that true. I've tried to find out whether DPM is allopathic medicine and the answer is NO. If it is then why it's called podiatric medicine? Moreover, please happy what you are and stop calling yourself medical doctor or something like that. You are podiatrist. If you do not believe me, then read this: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/...ticlekey=33612, http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm. If you want to be called medical doctor, please go to medical school rather go to podiatric school.

In addition, please stop call other people troll or second class citizen, are you sure you are better than me? If you are, prove me: I am in medical school, how about you? Oh I forgot. Next time want to bash people, look at yourself first.

Last but not least, I never intended to say bad thing about the podiatric medicine, I respect every profession. I know you guys have your own pride but at least see the true, do not live the past dream.
YES, this needed to close because it just causes more prejudices
Thank you