Is it worth it to pursue dentistry nowadays?

[kidsaremypassion]

I'd say dental school is still worth it at 400k -500k. A 500,000 investment and a 200,000 salary is a 40% a year return. Where else can you get that kind of return on your money. It would still be worth it if dental school was $1,000,000. Also what other career can you graduate from school and easily make 200,000 first year. Medical school you have to do a low paying residency for 4 years.

No, no...it's not.
There is a reason why almost every GP I'm friends with has an end goal of starting their own practice. Its not even necessarily because they want to make millions. Its because it can be quite difficult to get a well paying, ethically billing, associate position as a fresh grad with zero experience, especially without completing a residency of some sort. If one is going to go 400k in the hole, I damn sure hope you're specializing, and even with that...it may be tough for a bit carrying that burden. Don't forget that interest is accumulating on that huge principal while you are in school...
While I wouldnt attend med school at 400k either, 4 years of a PAID residency is always better than 4 years of an unpaid one. OS, Peds and GPRs tend to be paid...Endo and Ortho tend to NOT be paid.
Its not as simple as graduate after 4 yrs, get a 200k paying position. I wish it was for the GP folks, but the stories I hear from GP friends are far from that. I wouldn't want to graduate Dschool with that much debt and be stringing together multiple part time jobs, with pressure to produce, while carrying essentially a mortgage of a home on my back loan wise. Eventually they tire of that setup, and conclude that the way out is to purchase a practice. Much easier decision to buy into or purchase when youre 150-250k in the hole. When you're 400k plus...the idea of adding on additional debt just to have a shot at making 200k plus is daunting...
Cheapest is always, always best.

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[321931]

I'd say dental school is still worth it at 400k -500k. A 500,000 investment and a 200,000 salary is a 40% a year return. Where else can you get that kind of return on your money. It would still be worth it if dental school was $1,000,000. Also what other career can you graduate from school and easily make 200,000 first year. Medical school you have to do a low paying residency for 4 years.

you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and you have no idea what the value of money is.

 

[endoaccess]

I'd say dental school is still worth it at 400k -500k. A 500,000 investment and a 200,000 salary is a 40% a year return. Where else can you get that kind of return on your money. It would still be worth it if dental school was $1,000,000. Also what other career can you graduate from school and easily make 200,000 first year. Medical school you have to do a low paying residency for 4 years.

You can’t make this stuff up. I guess it’s a good thing you’re not going into finance!!

 

[321931]

You can’t make this stuff up. I guess it’s a good thing you’re not going into finance!!

Exactly, this dude would fail out of basic finance. I bet if you show this to the "finance" forums they would think dentists are a special type of *****. What's sad is if this dentist doesn't get smart with finance...they will most likely get take advantage in the business world and get more in debt. Sad but true. Dentist's are suckers for businessmen.

 

[TanMan]

I'd say dental school is still worth it at 400k -500k. A 500,000 investment and a 200,000 salary is a 40% a year return. Where else can you get that kind of return on your money. It would still be worth it if dental school was $1,000,000. Also what other career can you graduate from school and easily make 200,000 first year. Medical school you have to do a low paying residency for 4 years.

Although others may berate your analysis, I think you should look at it with more variables in place. We could also argue that a 30k education could yield a 100k+ profession (engineering, maybe?) could be a better investment IF you are looking primarily at percentages. Absolute numbers-wise, dentistry still wins.

A 500k investment w/ a 200k salary could be possible if you're willing to work for a corporate mill or pediatric mill AND aggressive on treatment planning and execution. However, 200k is a low bar to set if you're willing to work hard anywhere. I would say that 300-500k+ is more realistic in the mills if you are a high performer. Also, you need to take into consideration other variables that are going to make a dent on your 200k+... primarily taxes, debt service, and cost of living.

If you're going to be paid as an independent contractor, then you have to worry about SE taxes. On the upside, you can deduct a lot more off taxes, such as buying equipment for your future practice. If you are an employee, your employer will share some of your tax burden, but you won't have the benefit of deducting equipment purchases directly. Federal income taxes can take a lion's share (up to 39.6%) and state income taxes (up to 13.3%)

Second would be your monthly debt service payments. Unfortunately, in most instances, post-tax income would have to be used to pay off your monthly debt service payments and student loan interest is deductible only to a certain extent. Realistically, if you made 200k per year, you could take an aggressive estimate of having a little above 60% of the original amount if you were to consider taxes (FICA, FUTA, SUTA, etc...). For simplicity purposes, let's assume you only have 10k/month left of post-tax income. If your debt service was 5k/month (principal and interest), then you only have 5k left for cost of living expenses and other stuff.

Now, it's not all doom and gloom in that scenario. The key is getting out of your debt trap is by maximizing your potential and profitability. The ways to get out of it is either: military, some form of loan forgiveness, or have your own office. If you could utilize IBR (I don't know the limits), increase your income, deduct your initial equipment expenses (or any of the mixture of the three), then you will be able to get out of the debt trap. Dentistry is still great in that it doesn't require as much time as medical school, you still have lots of potential to make money, and although the educational expenses are extremely high, the income potential is still extremely high.

 

[321931]

Although others may berate your analysis, I think you should look at it with more variables in place. We could also argue that a 30k education could yield a 100k+ profession (engineering, maybe?) could be a better investment IF you are looking primarily at percentages. Absolute numbers-wise, dentistry still wins.

A 500k investment w/ a 200k salary could be possible if you're willing to work for a corporate mill or pediatric mill AND aggressive on treatment planning and execution. However, 200k is a low bar to set if you're willing to work hard anywhere. I would say that 300-500k+ is more realistic in the mills if you are a high performer. Also, you need to take into consideration other variables that are going to make a dent on your 200k+... primarily taxes, debt service, and cost of living.

If you're going to be paid as an independent contractor, then you have to worry about SE taxes. On the upside, you can deduct a lot more off taxes, such as buying equipment for your future practice. If you are an employee, your employer will share some of your tax burden, but you won't have the benefit of deducting equipment purchases directly. Federal income taxes can take a lion's share (up to 39.6%) and state income taxes (up to 13.3%)

Second would be your monthly debt service payments. Unfortunately, in most instances, post-tax income would have to be used to pay off your monthly debt service payments and student loan interest is deductible only to a certain extent. Realistically, if you made 200k per year, you could take an aggressive estimate of having a little above 60% of the original amount if you were to consider taxes (FICA, FUTA, SUTA, etc...). For simplicity purposes, let's assume you only have 10k/month left of post-tax income. If your debt service was 5k/month (principal and interest), then you only have 5k left for cost of living expenses and other stuff.

Now, it's not all doom and gloom in that scenario. The key is getting out of your debt trap is by maximizing your potential and profitability. The ways to get out of it is either: military, some form of loan forgiveness, or have your own office. If you could utilize IBR (I don't know the limits), increase your income, deduct your initial equipment expenses (or any of the mixture of the three), then you will be able to get out of the debt trap. Dentistry is still great in that it doesn't require as much time as medical school, you still have lots of potential to make money, and although the educational expenses are extremely high, the income potential is still extremely high.

So many variables and so much debt. You are right that we can do well if all the variables fall into place. There’s a ****ton of variables that are all most likely going against you not for you. And if those variables don’t go for you... you just signed a lease as a personal guarantee with a failing practice and your butt is on the line at the age of 35 compared to a nice little engineering job with minimal debt and minimal variables that spell bankruptcy. Unless you can enlighten us about the variables going with us... I would love to hear it.

 

[mariam1980]

As a dental student, I used to think it's gonna be super easy to make 6 figure income in practice. It just seemed like that was the expectation for everyone. I even did an AEGD residency to get more experience and be ready to fill my pockets with all the money that's gonna be coming in soon.
Fast forward to today and i can tell any dental student first hand that it usually is not the case. It's been ten years and I've owned my practice for 8 years now and doing very well however I don't see any millionaires in my graduating class. I think most people are doing very well. However the business of dentistry is not usually thought well enough in dental school so there would be any understanding of the reality. For a dentist to easily make 200K a year, there should be a very well running practice that would make at least 750-800K in collections accepting insurance and that would mean busy days and hard work. I enjoy the work I do and certainly would do my own practice again but I used to be a young dentist thinking I will be making tons as soon as I get out of school and that's rarely the case.

 

[TanMan]

So many variables and so much debt. You are right that we can do well if all the variables fall into place. There’s a ****ton of variables that are all most likely going against you not for you. And if those variables don’t go for you... you just signed a lease as a personal guarantee with a failing practice and your butt is on the line at the age of 35 compared to a nice little engineering job with minimal debt and minimal variables that spell bankruptcy. Unless you can enlighten us about the variables going with us... I would love to hear it.

That goes with any business that you open, not just dentistry. If you have no tangible assets, you will be expected to personally guarantee any debt you assume. If your practice fails, you could lose everything. If your practice succeeds, you are set for life. If your practice is so-so, you'll have an above average lifestyle. However, working as an employee is not necessarily 100% safe either. You may have more security, but if your firm/employer goes under, restructures, downsizes, etc... your job could be on the line either. AND if you weren't really making that much money to begin with, you would definitely need to scramble to find another job.

I've highlighted a ton of variables previously when looking into starting an office. You may not be able to anticipate everything, but if you have the proper mindset, you can definitely know what to do when random and unanticipated events occur. Real world example: Air compressor goes down. I still have an electric implant handpiece that can go 100k rpm (with manual water irrigation, because I still have the vacuum). I'll use that even if it's slow just so I can keep seeing patients until compressor is fixed. I've done it before, because rescheduling is costly.

I believe that if you are willing to go anywhere, work for anyone, and do anything (peds, thirds, rct's, implants, etc...) wherever there is opportunity and money to be made, you will not have any problems producing and making a lot more than 200k/year in your first year out. A lot of people's limitations is based on the notion that they either don't want to move out of the major metropolitan areas, not willing to work for corporate, or not able to ramp up production. The real barrier to the individual is themselves, not the profession.

 

[deleted659902]

No, no...it's not.
There is a reason why almost every GP I'm friends with has an end goal of starting their own practice. Its not even necessarily because they want to make millions. Its because it can be quite difficult to get a well paying, ethically billing, associate position as a fresh grad with zero experience, especially without completing a residency of some sort. If one is going to go 400k in the hole, I damn sure hope you're specializing, and even with that...it may be tough for a bit carrying that burden. Don't forget that interest is accumulating on that huge principal while you are in school...
While I wouldnt attend med school at 400k either, 4 years of a PAID residency is always better than 4 years of an unpaid one. OS, Peds and GPRs tend to be paid...Endo and Ortho tend to NOT be paid.
Its not as simple as graduate after 4 yrs, get a 200k paying position. I wish it was for the GP folks, but the stories I hear from GP friends are far from that. I wouldn't want to graduate Dschool with that much debt and be stringing together multiple part time jobs, with pressure to produce, while carrying essentially a mortgage of a home on my back loan wise. Eventually they tire of that setup, and conclude that the way out is to purchase a practice. Much easier decision to buy into or purchase when youre 150-250k in the hole. When you're 400k plus...the idea of adding on additional debt just to have a shot at making 200k plus is daunting...
Cheapest is always, always best.

Uh no. If you are in 400k in dental school debt, you should seriously RECONSIDER specializing from a financial standpoint. Three years of lost GP income are considerable especially when the debt is that big and possibly ballooning with residency tuition and fees. Better start working ASAP. Heck better own right after graduation lol.

 

[deleted659902]

Strong first post!

Easily make $200,000 right out of school? Still worth even $1,000,000? Keep dreaming predents!

Big Hoss

Says the Navy dentist.

 

[LFA20]

Are you a dentist? Dental student? What are you?

He is an idiot that’s what he is

 

[kingme23]

As a dental student, I used to think it's gonna be super easy to make 6 figure income in practice. It just seemed like that was the expectation for everyone. I even did an AEGD residency to get more experience and be ready to fill my pockets with all the money that's gonna be coming in soon.
Fast forward to today and i can tell any dental student first hand that it usually is not the case. It's been ten years and I've owned my practice for 8 years now and doing very well however I don't see any millionaires in my graduating class. I think most people are doing very well. However the business of dentistry is not usually thought well enough in dental school so there would be any understanding of the reality. For a dentist to easily make 200K a year, there should be a very well running practice that would make at least 750-800K in collections accepting insurance and that would mean busy days and hard work. I enjoy the work I do and certainly would do my own practice again but I used to be a young dentist thinking I will be making tons as soon as I get out of school and that's rarely the case.

That’s a little extreme, if your practice is running at 75% overhead then the problem is not dentistry.

 

[mariam1980]

That’s a little extreme, if your practice is running at 75% overhead then the problem is not dentistry.

Well, you won’t be able to take home whatever is left after overhead. If you run your business you know there has to be money left for investing in the business and covering cash flow. So I happen to run my office at less than 50% overhead but I don’t count on it to cover my lifestyle. As a single owner, I allow for a generous cushion to cover any emergencies. I might be more conservative than some others.


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[Big Time Hoosier]

Says the Navy dentist.

Just think of my handsome face when you make your monthly student loan payment for the next decade or two of your life.

Big Hoss

 

[jamesdmd9]

Strong first post!

Easily make $200,000 right out of school? Still worth even $1,000,000? Keep dreaming predents!

Big Hoss

I've been practicing as a dentist for 1 year. I know of 5 or 6 of my classmates salaries in their first year, 160k, 160k, 160k, 220k, 230k, 275k. So yes I'd say you can easily make 200k right out of school. Granted we all work corporates and we work hard. Many of the corporates offer 150k minimum. I owe 240 k, I switched to 25 year repayment. My payment is 1400 a month. I could easily double that with a 500k loan and live a quality life with a 3000 k monthly payment for the next 25 years.

 

[mariam1980]

As long as you are willing to work as hard for another 25 years for the corporate, more power to you.


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[LFA20]

I've been practicing as a dentist for 1 year. I know of 5 or 6 of my classmates salaries in their first year, 160k, 160k, 160k, 220k, 230k, 275k. So yes I'd say you can easily make 200k right out of school. Granted we all work corporates and we work hard. Many of the corporates offer 150k minimum. I owe 240 k, I switched to 25 year repayment. My payment is 1400 a month. I could easily double that with a 500k loan and live a quality life with a 3000 k monthly payment for the next 25 years.

Show us the contract... I don’t believe you

 

[LFA20]

View attachment 239154

Just think of my handsome face when you make your monthly student loan payment for the next decade or two of your life.

Big Hoss

You’re a line officer??

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I've been practicing as a dentist for 1 year. I know of 5 or 6 of my classmates salaries in their first year, 160k, 160k, 160k, 220k, 230k, 275k. So yes I'd say you can easily make 200k right out of school. Granted we all work corporates and we work hard. Many of the corporates offer 150k minimum. I owe 240 k, I switched to 25 year repayment. My payment is 1400 a month. I could easily double that with a 500k loan and live a quality life with a 3000 k monthly payment for the next 25 years.

Congratulations! You are willing to work hard and you graduated with below average student debt. Your experience will be entirely different than someone who’s not willing to hustle and who’s staring down $500,000+ in student loans.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

You’re a line officer??

I’m more proud of that trident.

Big Hoss

 

[TanMan]

I've been practicing as a dentist for 1 year. I know of 5 or 6 of my classmates salaries in their first year, 160k, 160k, 160k, 220k, 230k, 275k. So yes I'd say you can easily make 200k right out of school. Granted we all work corporates and we work hard. Many of the corporates offer 150k minimum. I owe 240 k, I switched to 25 year repayment. My payment is 1400 a month. I could easily double that with a 500k loan and live a quality life with a 3000 k monthly payment for the next 25 years.

I'm glad we have a fresh perspective on what new grad makes rather than us relatively old farts who reminesce about how it used to be back then when we first started... If you own your own office, 240k disappears very quickly, while living a good lifestyle.

 

[Screwtape]

Show us the contract... I don’t believe you

What specifically don’t you believe ? The 150k guarantee? I can affirm that I was offered $160k guarantee not even by a corporate straight out from Dental school. Similar was true for several of my close friends in my class ($150k). That is the going minimum rate for many Midwest corporates. Depending on your location $200k is attainable your first year out. Easy? Not for most. Gotta be right area, right practice, right doc.

 

[jamesdmd9]

Show us the contract... I don’t believe you

Show us the contract... I don’t believe you

I’ll message you my contract if you really want. Hb this screenshot of an email from la familia. 700-760 a day in New Mexico. Well over 150k.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

There was another of you I heard a lot of stories about when I was AD. Guy was legendary. Sadly he passed last year early in retirement.

Hopefully you don’t get too bored in the staff corps. Get ready for tons of posers. Cheers

Yeah...unfortunately an ear problem keeps me from scuba diving, so there went my SEAL dreams. I also didn’t make the cut at CIA. Admittedly, I’m not as handsome as the venerable Tom Selleck. I look more like this...

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Haha. Never know. I saw a number of tridents in medical. Usually PA’s. Some looked like that guy too.

My work with Uncle Sam before joining the Navy Dental Corps was more Dr. Stanley Goodspeed than Jason Bourne.

“Look, I'm just a biochemist. Most of the time, I work in a little glass jar and lead a very uneventful life. I drive a Volvo, a beige one. But what I'm dealing with here is one of the most deadly substances the earth has ever known, so what say you cut me some FRIGGIN' SLACK?”

Big Hoss

 

[321931]

I've been practicing as a dentist for 1 year. I know of 5 or 6 of my classmates salaries in their first year, 160k, 160k, 160k, 220k, 230k, 275k. So yes I'd say you can easily make 200k right out of school. Granted we all work corporates and we work hard. Many of the corporates offer 150k minimum. I owe 240 k, I switched to 25 year repayment. My payment is 1400 a month. I could easily double that with a 500k loan and live a quality life with a 3000 k monthly payment for the next 25 years.

Go compare your net worth of your engineer/software buddies and you will realize that you are at least a decade + behind and may never catch up in terms of net worth. You will understand later on in life.

The gig is good if you have everything lined up for you... or have God’s luck on your side as seen by cold front and tanman. The middle ground ain’t that bad but most people don’t look at the job this way. Expect the middle and make the most of it padawan.

 

[LFA20]

View attachment 239155


I’ll message you my contract if you really want. Hb this screenshot of an email from la familia. 700-760 a day in New Mexico. Well over 150k.

Good to know. None of my classmates are making this much. Guess none of them are going rural.

But dm me the contract

 

[LFA20]

It’s not a stretch to make 200 as a new grad. You gotta go where you’re needed and hustle. Might be somewhere like Arkansas. If you are given a full schedule it’s doable. Problem is most associate jobs are bait and switches. So you will waste time switching jobs, moving around etc. Finally just give up and buy something.

My discontent about dentistry is not the money. It’s that the job just kinda sucks after awhile. Most dentists feel this way if they are being honest. Also 8 years of school, tons of debt, then on top of all that you gotta go lock in another 500-1mil to buy a practice/Job.

At 500k, I’m not sure I can recommend. It’s not gonna work out well for most at that level. You are gonna have years of crazy stress.

In hindsight I was lucky. HPSP no debt, and now I’m going to specialty school also no debt. But I’m old, took a long time to get here, and my non dentist friends are doing great.

Do you think it’s a good idea to work as an associate in these locations after military commitment? I know I can save money while in the military but when I get out I can make and save even more at these rural locations for a few years before openinf a practice in the future. I personally don’t like taking out large sum of loans for anything (practice included).

 

[ysrebob]

@AVB2104: If you are not familiar with the area you'll be moving to after your military service, six months or a year of associating in a nearby town (but far enough away to be out of the noncompete radius from where you actually intend to locate) will:
1. give you time to scope out the area / follow leads on practices for sale / scout locations for a startup if you must
2. get a little practice with tx plan presentation and soft skills (I thought I was a "natural" at this as an AF dentist, but learned a LOT in the first few months on the job as an associate in a private practice
3. learn how dental insurance works (also a blind spot for mil dentists)

… all will make ownership go smoother and worth a few months of associating IMO.

 

[LFA20]

You will have to take out a large loan for practice. There is no way around it. It will take too long too save money as an associate.

I do recommend to associate for a year though. The military does not prepare you at all for private practice. In some ways it even makes things worse. The transition has been tougher then I imagined, as it’s been tough to break some habits I developed in the mil. Two very different styles of practice.

I noticed that a lot of dentists who went the military route ended up specializing either in the service or civilian after their commitment. Is the transition really difficult if you decide to stick with being a GP? How long does it take to get back up to speed in the civilian world?

 

[charlestweed]

Do you think it’s a good idea to work as an associate in these locations after military commitment? I know I can save money while in the military but when I get out I can make and save even more at these rural locations for a few years before openinf a practice in the future. I personally don’t like taking out large sum of loans for anything (practice included).

I don’t like taking out large sum of loans either. I am not a big risk taker and that’s why I am not as rich as ColdFront and Tanman. I am afraid to invest in high risk stock. I only buy residential investment properties in “easy to rent” "easy to sell" areas (ie in Orange county). I had to pay a little more for these properties but I have had no vacancy problem…. small but stable source of passive income.

I currently have 4 offices. I only borrowed $75k to set up my first office and another $92k to purchase an existing practice for my wife. A few years later, I spent $165k (my own saving money) to purchase a dying existing ortho office….and that was the most I’ve ever spent on. Recently, I moved the first office to another location and only spent $50k to convert an existing medical office to an ortho office. And for the other 2 offices, they cost me $0 to build…..I share the offices with the GPs and just pay them the monthly rents.

You don’t necessarily have to spend $3-500k to set up or purchase a practice. I am not as good as Taman, who bought an air compressor from Home Depot, but I was still able to set up my own office for under $100k. Patients come to see you because they like you and not what you have inside your office. While working as an associate, try to learn as much as possible from your successful boss (clinical tricks, low overhead, insurance billings, hiring staff etc). I have learned a lot from working at busy Corp offices.

You can also work part time while your new office is still struggling. My sister, who is a GP, still kept her 4 days/week job at a crop office and worked 3 days/week at her new office, which she spent $120k to build. I did the same thing and continue to do this until now. So neither my sister nor I experienced a drop in income when we started our own offices. It' much easier, a lot less stressfull, and faster to see the profit when the overhead is low

 

[TanMan]

You will have to take out a large loan for practice. There is no way around it. It will take too long too save money as an associate.

I do recommend to associate for a year though. The military does not prepare you at all for private practice. In some ways it even makes things worse. The transition has been tougher then I imagined, as it’s been tough to break some habits I developed in the mil. Two very different styles of practice.

You don't need to take a large loan for a practice. If you keep your startup costs under control and work for a high producing mill for about a year, you can easily get away with little to no practice debt.

 

[TanMan]

I don’t like taking out large sum of loans either. I am not a big risk taker and that’s why I am not as rich as ColdFront and Tanman. I am afraid to invest in high risk stock. I only buy residential investment properties in “easy to rent” "easy to sell" areas (ie in Orange county). I had to pay a little more for these properties but I have had no vacancy problem…. small but stable source of passive income.

I currently have 4 offices. I only borrowed $75k to set up my first office and another $92k to purchase an existing practice for my wife. A few years later, I spent $165k (my own saving money) to purchase a dying existing ortho office….and that was the most I’ve ever spent on. Recently, I moved the first office to another location and only spent $50k to convert an existing medical office to an ortho office. And for the other 2 offices, they cost me $0 to build…..I share the offices with the GPs and just pay them the monthly rents.

You don’t necessarily have to spend $3-500k to set up or purchase a practice. I am not as good as Taman, who bought an air compressor from Home Depot, but I was still able to set up my own office for under $100k. Patients come to see you because they like you and not what you have inside your office. While working as an associate, try to learn as much as possible from your successful boss (clinical tricks, low overhead, insurance billings, hiring staff etc). I have learned a lot from working at busy Corp offices.

You can also work part time while your new office is still struggling. My sister, who is a GP, still kept her 4 days/week job at a crop office and worked 3 days/week at her new office, which she spent $120k to build. I did the same thing and continue to do this until now. So neither my sister nor I experienced a drop in income when we started our own offices. It' much easier, a lot less stressfull, and faster to see the profit when the overhead is low

This is good advice... start cheap and work part-time until you ramp up your production. Don't be afraid to quit (or get fired) when things pick up. I did the same thing CharlesTweed did and learn the corporate systems, study their strengths and weaknesses, and just take their strengths and incorporate into my office. Corporates are not as invulnerable as you think they are. Operations-wise, they can be a little stupid in terms of technical knowledge and systems implementation. I remember on my last day in corporate, I told the front staff just to put all dummy appointments so we can all get out early. I had NO patients that day and still got paid. I also put the dummy patient appointments into the shape of my initials, lol.

Everyone has their own risk tolerance, and not everything you invest into will make you a lot of money. However... it only takes one business to take off to be set for life. I'm lucky that one of my businesses is producing twice as much as my own office now.

 

[2TH MVR]

In reference to the listening audience here that is mostly comprised of predents and new dents. You are dentists and future dentists with little to no real business knowledge. No disrespect to the posts here from some successful seasoned dentists/entrepreneurs, but YOUR focus should be on what you know. Dentistry. Keep it simple.

Graduate with as little debt as possible. Find a decent Associateship and/or Corp job to LEARN some speed, real world experience and dental business skills. Start looking for the right practice or start your own. I am not a big fan of buying these large million dollar practices and putting yourself into a larger debt hole. Lots of stress. Start SMALL with the option to expand. Take a chapter out of @charlestweed posts on starting on the cheap. Work BOTH the Associateship/Corp and your own practice. This option will be far less stressful than covering the debt service on DS loans and a large practice loan.

Invest in YOUR practice. Invest in CE. This is where your expertise is. It is foolish to invest in other business ventures unless you have @TanMan or ColdPlay's entrepreneurial experience and business knowledge. Invest in your practice. Invest in your staff. This is your single most important investment.

Once your practice is successful .... then you might find it interesting to play outside the ropes of dentistry. But focus on what you know initially .. which is bread and butter dentistry.

 

[doktorinprogres]

I've been practicing as a dentist for 1 year. I know of 5 or 6 of my classmates salaries in their first year, 160k, 160k, 160k, 220k, 230k, 275k. So yes I'd say you can easily make 200k right out of school. Granted we all work corporates and we work hard. Many of the corporates offer 150k minimum. I owe 240 k, I switched to 25 year repayment. My payment is 1400 a month. I could easily double that with a 500k loan and live a quality life with a 3000 k monthly payment for the next 25 years.

Can you enumerate some of the reasons they're able to hit that mark? What locations of the country are they in? Are they doing procedures that are well outside bread and butter dentistry?

Thanks for any insights you can provide

 

[TanMan]

In reference to the listening audience here that is mostly comprised of predents and new dents. You are dentists and future dentists with little to no real business knowledge. No disrespect to the posts here from some successful seasoned dentists/entrepreneurs, but YOUR focus should be on what you know. Dentistry. Keep it simple.

Graduate with as little debt as possible. Find a decent Associateship and/or Corp job to LEARN some speed, real world experience and dental business skills. Start looking for the right practice or start your own. I am not a big fan of buying these large million dollar practices and putting yourself into a larger debt hole. Lots of stress. Start SMALL with the option to expand. Take a chapter out of @charlestweed posts on starting on the cheap. Work BOTH the Associateship/Corp and your own practice. This option will be far less stressful than covering the debt service on DS loans and a large practice loan.

Invest in YOUR practice. Invest in CE. This is where your expertise is. It is foolish to invest in other business ventures unless you have @TanMan or ColdPlay's entrepreneurial experience and business knowledge. Invest in your practice. Invest in your staff. This is your single most important investment.

Once your practice is successful .... then you might find it interesting to play outside the ropes of dentistry. But focus on what you know initially .. which is bread and butter dentistry.

Everything said here is, for the most part, true. You should definitely reinvest into your practice until your returns are no longer substantiated by the reinvestment (diminishing returns). Your cash cow is the dental office (unless you came in with a lot of money already). You keep your first practice financially healthy to draw upon for other investments or other offices. Once your cash flow is stable, your financial reserves are sufficient to weather the seasonality of dentistry, then you should be able to invest in other ventures or traditional investments without affecting your primary operations. The cash flow of your dental office can eventually be tapped into other investments.

 

[321931]

HPI: Gap in earnings between owner-dentists and nonowners declining

Straight from the ADA to you! Good luck buds!

 

[2TH MVR]

Not surprising. Obvious that dentistry is following medicine.

 

[321931]

Not surprising. Obvious that dentistry is following medicine.

Yep anyone with a brain can see where this train is heading.

 

[schmoob]

Uh no. If you are in 400k in dental school debt, you should seriously RECONSIDER specializing from a financial standpoint. Three years of lost GP income are considerable especially when the debt is that big and possibly ballooning with residency tuition and fees. Better start working ASAP. Heck better own right after graduation lol.

Uh no. Your argument is seriously flawed.

Haha. Never know. I saw a number of tridents in medical. Usually PA’s. Some looked like that guy too.

Yep! Know a bunch of guys like that as well. Most of the were Team guy IDC's who got their training at 18D school in Bragg. Then they applied to the PA route of MSC-IPP. They made tons of money, and are usually super chill.

Says the Navy dentist.

 

[321931]

Oh hey more good news:

Closure of Oregon dental laboratory program leaves only 13 U.S.-based training programs

More dentists, more competition, lower reimbursement, find ways to cut overhead...etc etc etc....and we are in a bull market. Race to bottom of the barrel.

Just wait until the feds raise interest rates...

 

[2TH MVR]

Rainee is on a roll.

 

[TanMan]

Oh hey more good news:

Closure of Oregon dental laboratory program leaves only 13 U.S.-based training programs

More dentists, more competition, lower reimbursement, find ways to cut overhead...etc etc etc....and we are in a bull market. Race to bottom of the barrel.

Just wait until the feds raise interest rates...

I'm still pretty damn optimistic about dentistry as long as you are willing to follow the basic principles outlined before. There will always be more dentists graduating and more competition in highly desirable areas. Lower reimbursement requires you produce more or charge more. You should always find ways to cut overhead or increase income.

In a bear market, there's always opportunities. When people are losing their shirts, there's also people making a ton of money. It all depends on how well you adapt to the situation and how you can turn other people's loss into your victory during downturns. I'd like to think that in a bull market, everyone wins. In a bear market, you win off other people's loss and suffering.

 

[2TH MVR]

I'm still pretty damn optimistic about dentistry as long as you are willing to follow the basic principles outlined before. There will always be more dentists graduating and more competition in highly desirable areas. Lower reimbursement requires you produce more or charge more. You should always find ways to cut overhead or increase income.

In a bear market, there's always opportunities. When people are losing their shirts, there's also people making a ton of money. It all depends on how well you adapt to the situation and how you can turn other people's loss into your victory during downturns. I'd like to think that in a bull market, everyone wins. In a bear market, you win off other people's loss and suffering.

There has to be a better way of saying that last sentence.

 

[321931]

I'm still pretty damn optimistic about dentistry as long as you are willing to follow the basic principles outlined before. There will always be more dentists graduating and more competition in highly desirable areas. Lower reimbursement requires you produce more or charge more. You should always find ways to cut overhead or increase income.

In a bear market, there's always opportunities. When people are losing their shirts, there's also people making a ton of money. It all depends on how well you adapt to the situation and how you can turn other people's loss into your victory during downturns. I'd like to think that in a bull market, everyone wins. In a bear market, you win off other people's loss and suffering.

You are a smart dude. But you can't help but wonder what the next generation of DDS will endure when the house of cards all comes crumbling down. To bad student loans not forgiven. I bet you will make money though. Can probably hire them dentists for 20% collections soon as associates. Supply demand you know the drill. No pun intended lol

 

[LFA20]

You are a smart dude. But you can't help but wonder what the next generation of DDS will endure when the house of cards all comes crumbling down. To bad student loans not forgiven. I bet you will make money though. Can probably hire them dentists for 20% collections soon as associates. Supply demand you know the drill. No pun intended lol

A lot of students are graduating with little to no student loans(me included ). I think we’ll be just fine

 

[321931]

A lot of students are graduating with little to no student loans(me included ). I think we’ll be just fine

Hey awesome! No debt and dentistry/pharmacy/medicine is a sweet gig. Grats in the scholarships, dentistry will be a really good gig.

 

[TanMan]

There has to be a better way of saying that last sentence.

I'm sure there is, but if you want to sugar coat it, you can say that one person's trash is another man's treasure. That's the unfortunate truth during a bear market, buyer's market, natural disasters, etc... People are more likely to sell at a loss if they are not able to meet their financial obligations or if they are near death. Acquiring undervalued assets is one of the keys in a bear/buyer's market. Being liquid or having access to capital during the harder times is the more difficult part. I was looking at my watch, and it serves as a reminder that there's always opportunities out there (someone pawned the watch to me and wasn't able to pay me back).

You are a smart dude. But you can't help but wonder what the next generation of DDS will endure when the house of cards all comes crumbling down. To bad student loans not forgiven. I bet you will make money though. Can probably hire them dentists for 20% collections soon as associates. Supply demand you know the drill. No pun intended lol

Even if we hit a bear market, patients will still require dental work. The more elective dentistry will definitely take a hit, but emergency dentistry will not take as much of a hit. Existing dentists and incoming dentists will definitely have to adapt, if a bear market/economic recession occurs. The attrition isn't as pretty, but I can already think of a few ways new grads might be able to take advantage (such as lower practice acquisition costs of failing practices or lower construction costs due to decreased demand for commercial construction). For existing dentists, as you have pointed out, may be able to hire dentists and personnel for cheaper, lower costs of expansion if you can get a better deal with a contractor or start your own contractor company, etc...

 

[LFA20]

I'm sure there is, but if you want to sugar coat it, you can say that one person's trash is another man's treasure. That's the unfortunate truth during a bear market, buyer's market, natural disasters, etc... People are more likely to sell at a loss if they are not able to meet their financial obligations or if they are near death. Acquiring undervalued assets is one of the keys in a bear/buyer's market. Being liquid or having access to capital during the harder times is the more difficult part. I was looking at my watch, and it serves as a reminder that there's always opportunities out there (someone pawned the watch to me and wasn't able to pay me back).

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Even if we hit a bear market, patients will still require dental work. The more elective dentistry will definitely take a hit, but emergency dentistry will not take as much of a hit. Existing dentists and incoming dentists will definitely have to adapt, if a bear market/economic recession occurs. The attrition isn't as pretty, but I can already think of a few ways new grads might be able to take advantage (such as lower practice acquisition costs of failing practices or lower construction costs due to decreased demand for commercial construction). For existing dentists, as you have pointed out, may be able to hire dentists and personnel for cheaper, lower costs of expansion if you can get a better deal with a contractor or start your own contractor company, etc...

Nice watch doc but too many people have them
Get Audemars piguet or Patek Phillipe. Now we are talking

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Nice watch doc but too many people have them
Get Audemars piguet or Patek Phillipe. Now we are talking

I prefer Breitling.

Big Hoss