Is it worth it?

[RockDoc7]

I think the answer depends largely on when you ask. Right now for instance, it's 3:30 am and because I have boards in a few days I'll be in Uworld for probably two more hours before getting the requisite three hours of sleep. If I recycle all of these monster cans, I could probably pay off my debt. I've only seen my wife and kids passing in the hallway for the last month or so, and I haven't shaved in so long that every time I come out of the basement someone thinks they've finally found Bigfoot. Exams are a cruel mistress, and they don't give a damn about dance recitals or birthdays or my SEVERE ethanol deficiency. So this week? Not so much, and there are many weeks like this, and always will be.

Having said that, the moments that shine in this racket are beyond that of most any other discipline. We get to perform well child physicals on underprivileged kids who have conditions that would otherwise go untreated. We see people at their most frightened and vulnerable and get to be the ones who are trusted to allay those fears. I went to a village in South America last year and on a mountain with no electricity or running water treated hundreds of parasitic infections, infected wounds, vitamin deficiencies, and many other conditions. As we drove out of the village the mayor stopped our convoy with many of the mountain's residents behind him and presented us with the highest form of currency he knew, a six and a half foot arm of bananas cultivated on his own soil. These experiences are extremely powerful, and you'd never get them as an architect or petroleum engineer. I dont think I could choose any other life. Plus, we look pretty cool in scrubs.

Agreed, it is largelt in whom you speak with. Generally just trying to get a sense of the reality of it all from perspectives deriving from beginning to end. So far, quite an interesting and welcoming array of views. I am sure that the lack of interaction with your family has been straining; something I ought to be cognisent of but am not looking forward to in the least. As others have touched on, keeping a big picture perspective seems key in the many disenchanting moments. At least having a supportive spouse ought to provide some significance as a cornerstone.

Your South American story is amazing. What a grandly unique and personal experience. Brava. Certainly of the similar faculty of serving underpriviledged and disenfranchised people. The scrubs are a definite bonus, ha.

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[RockDoc7]

Sorry, I missed this post and saw it while scrolling down. Although it hardly matters as your point of view is not in conversation with my own. And I don't mean that dismissively. I mean only that for the true believer callings really are an accurate model of how the idea is framed. For the missionary the hot, bug ridden, poverty of subsaharan Africa are the toils of salvation and thus unalterable and irrelevant points of observation to a secular travel critic such as myself who prefers the cappuccinos, crossaints, and godless cultural conversations of civilization.

I mean to point out that for the marginally god fearing, framing the idea in terms of a messianic calling is to miss the mark so badly as to be comical. We are cogs. We fill out miles of paperwork. Called is when your beeper goes off at 3 am for some straight up b!tch work.

No worries. I certainly don't expect you to share a similar point of view as I; and I acknowledge your respectful regard. I too enjoy the "cappuccinos, crossaints, and godless cultural conversations of civilization;" though I cannot take my faith out of the cultural conversations. But I also enjoy the servitude of the "Subsaharan Africa

Medicine as a calling in relation to salvation is to completely misunderstand the concept. Salvation has nothing to do with it. I too believe that we are cogs filling out miles of paperwork being called at 3am for some b!tch work. However, the machine in which I work with as a cog is of the messianic cadre. The point is that the "ministry" mentality is not limiting to 3rd world countries but is also very much within vocation.

 

[RockDoc7]

In reply to people that like to post in every thread "medicine is a calling".

It is not necessarily a calling! Some people are pushed to it by one reason or the other. For some, they are born into it and it becomes a family heritage. For some it's family/friends pressure to do it. I had a friend who's dad refused to pay for her tuition if she majored in anything else but "pre-med" related majors and went to med school, no one is a doctor in her family but they wanted her to do it. Her family pushed her into it. She is a doctor today but she was the least passionate about it even until she finished residency. And that's an example out of many!
I am in an mcat review class with a non-trad guy who says, "I got tired of being talked to rudely by doctors half my age so i said f-it, imma be a doctor too" He's a nurse. He's doing really well on the review course and motivated. Don't know if his is valid reason but that's his motivation, and i am happy for him and i am sure he won't say that in his med school interview. I know people that went into it simply because they hate other subjects and can only tolerate sciences academically, sort of like doing what you know. I know people that went into it cos of the slight chance of respect or prestige of being called a doctor.

Yea it is a calling for some, but not very so for all. You are not a priest or a nun. Stop the self righteousness. Some of yall are bs-ing. I know some of you guys are not in it because you genuinely want to help people and save the world

I am friends (maybe not so much) with a FM doctor who has gotta be like the most uncompassionate person i know. From the stories he tells me and his replies towards his patients, i feel sorry for his patients. If he ever told me medicine is a calling, i'd slap him with my phone! Get real folks. Some of yall will never be Ghandhi.

You're absolutely right, and I don't think it is ever to be refuted that some don't go into the medical profession with the "calling" as in many a profession. I do not believe that it is a self-righteous and ignorant attitude for most, though for some it really is, but rather a vocational understanding that one is privileged to be a significant helping part of someones troubled moment(s) is the framework in which one works from (though sometimes causing pain to do so).

 

[JourneyAgent]

No worries. I certainly don't expect you to share a similar point of view as I; and I acknowledge your respectful regard. I too enjoy the "cappuccinos, crossaints, and godless cultural conversations of civilization;" though I cannot take my faith out of the cultural conversations. But I also enjoy the servitude of the "Subsaharan Africa

Medicine as a calling in relation to salvation is to completely misunderstand the concept. Salvation has nothing to do with it. I too believe that we are cogs filling out miles of paperwork being called at 3am for some b!tch work. However, the machine in which I work with as a cog is of the messianic cadre. The point is that the "ministry" mentality is not limiting to 3rd world countries but is also very much within vocation.

Clearly I meant it metaphorically. Service to the third world or otherwise being perfectly laudible. Tedious to have to say as much. Your faith is not subject to criticism or conversation and so to the extent that you assert it as motivation for medicine the more pointless a conversation about the development of alternative adaptive mechanisms to the bureaucratic boredom becomes. Any trial is self-edifying to a person on a calling employing a framework such as yours.

Most of us do not have this mechanism in place. And will therefore require creative solutions to emptiness that will be left after the artifice of adopting a calling mindset evaporates. And it will for most. Which is why I am indicating not adopting it in the first place for everyone other than those such as yourself. Because the let down will be disorienting and needlessly distressing.

 

[Balantidiumcoli]

In reply to people that like to post in every thread "medicine is a calling".

It is not necessarily a calling! Some people are pushed to it by one reason or the other. For some, they are born into it and it becomes a family heritage. For some it's family/friends pressure to do it. I had a friend who's dad refused to pay for her tuition if she majored in anything else but "pre-med" related majors and went to med school, no one is a doctor in her family but they wanted her to do it. Her family pushed her into it. She is a doctor today but she was the least passionate about it even until she finished residency. And that's an example out of many!
I am in an mcat review class with a non-trad guy who says, "I got tired of being talked to rudely by doctors half my age so i said f-it, imma be a doctor too" He's a nurse. He's doing really well on the review course and motivated. Don't know if his is valid reason but that's his motivation, and i am happy for him and i am sure he won't say that in his med school interview. I know people that went into it simply because they hate other subjects and can only tolerate sciences academically, sort of like doing what you know. I know people that went into it cos of the slight chance of respect or prestige of being called a doctor.

Yea it is a calling for some, but not very so for all. You are not a priest or a nun. Stop the self righteousness. Some of yall are bs-ing. I know some of you guys are not in it because you genuinely want to help people and save the world

I am friends (maybe not so much) with a FM doctor who has gotta be like the most uncompassionate person i know. From the stories he tells me and his replies towards his patients, i feel sorry for his patients. If he ever told me medicine is a calling, i'd slap him with my phone! Get real folks. Some of yall will never be Ghandhi.

I'm just curious, why are you doing it?

Job security? Six figure salary (to go along with your 6 figure debt)? Your parents feel you are a disappointment?

I'm not saying people don't do it for those reasons or the ones you mentioned, but they all sound like very ****ty reasons considering the amount of time one would have to dedicate and how all consuming this field is. To each his own I guess but sounds like a waste of a life to me.

 

[RockDoc7]

Clearly I meant it metaphorically. Service to the third world or otherwise being perfectly laudible. Tedious to have to say as much. Your faith is not subject to criticism or conversation and so to the extent that you assert it as motivation for medicine the more pointless a conversation about the development of alternative adaptive mechanisms to the bureaucratic boredom becomes. Any trial is self-edifying to a person on a calling employing a framework such as yours.

Most of us do not have this mechanism in place. And will therefore require creative solutions to emptiness that will be left after the artifice of adopting a calling mindset evaporates. And it will for most. Which is why I am indicating not adopting it in the first place for everyone other than those such as yourself. Because the let down will be disorienting and needlessly distressing.

Ah, que bueno JourneyAgent.

 

[malaika]

I'm just curious, why are you doing it?

Job security? Six figure salary (to go along with your 6 figure debt)? Your parents feel you are a disappointment?

I'm not saying people don't do it for those reasons or the ones you mentioned, but they all sound like very ****ty reasons considering the amount of time one would have to dedicate and how all consuming this field is. To each his own I guess but sounds like a waste of a life to me.

Nothing i have tried is as fascinating as this.

 

[malaika]

You're absolutely right, and I don't think it is ever to be refuted that some don't go into the medical profession with the "calling" as in many a profession. I do not believe that it is a self-righteous and ignorant attitude for most, though for some it really is, but rather a vocational understanding that one is privileged to be a significant helping part of someones troubled moment(s) is the framework in which one works from (though sometimes causing pain to do so).

Nice way to put it. I think this may be the case for most people

 

[JourneyAgent]

Nice way to put it. I think this may be the case for most people

It is. There's nothing exclusive of philanthropic aims in the a- or marginally religious framework. Or the religious sense of the word calling. The term is however imbued wih a certain self-aggrandizing romance that would be difficult to sustain unless the romance originates and is verified and supported strictly on an internal basis. Nobody feels called to fill out workers compensation paperwork. Or the like. In what will be the bulk of a physicians mundane workday.

It's very difficult to reconcile to the roadside revival vibe of being a premed.

There is actually quite a bit of research on medical student entrance sentiment and opinion and exit or resident opinion on these matters. Medical educators are struggling with why there is a pervasive jadedness that seems directly a result of medical "secondary curricula" a phrase coined by one of the leaders in this research.

As an amateur California history fan boy, I think I've seen a similar behavioral dynamic with upper middle class gold rush failings on a large scale. A dour bitterness pervaded the culture for decades after.

Even though I value an intelligent, questioning, rebellious spirit entirely absent from the docile believing quarters of those certain about the rapture. I can't help but to notice they have a certain ideological immunity to the throes of doubt and disappointment that follow medicine like the locusts of Egypt.

 

[Gfliptastic]

I understand some people are looking "worth" or "value" in the process, and JourneyAgent is an entertaining voice in this. Medicine isn't like the way it was even 10 years ago. The bureaucrats won. I am told stories about older FM's or IM's being either forced into retiring, shutting their private practices, or COMPLYING w/ all the rules. You don't switch to EMR approved by Medicare/aid, sorry charlie, NO MONEY FOR YOU!!

And we WASTE so much $$$ based on legal issues. I'm sure Q can confirm that no matter what is wrong w/ your head (migraine, tension HA, whatever) you will get a CT scan. Even though your presentation and what many of you future docs will learn about Pre-test Probability is so extremely low, you order one anyways! The workup does stop after that CT, but it's a "safety measure" that is required. And we just irradiated someone I and no other doctor thought needed.

Medicine is quite ugly these days. And I know people transitioning from other healthcare positions to physician understand it fully. But to some of you pre-meds, you have no clue. And I've seen threads about naive pre-meds questioning their motives because they get their EC/shadowing experience, and get bombarded by "don't do it!" Seriously listen to them. It's not some mean hazing experience, or a test of your resolve. It's folks "in the trenches" telling you the truth.

HONESTLY, sit down and think real long about if you want to go thru this and arrive at the modern practice of medicine. The luster of being a physician is gone. The "yellow brick road of gold" has been pilfered pillaged and sold. You don't end up w/ a good paying job that's easy to do. NOPE, you get oppressed like everyone else collecting a paycheck...just by different factors. NOT in your control. Sure you aren't digging ditches for pennies. However, the mental and philosophical/spiritual toll you pay to do this. THAT is part of the equation. The ditch digger doesn't lose any of that!

EVERYONE wants something from you. Patients. Administrators. Bureaucrats. I mean, we have new forms in the ICU and hospital based on "code status" that are becoming required. (Ironic considering the early discussion) You know we have to spend about 5 mins/patient w/ this like ala carte form. "Well, you say DNI, however, what if it's required because we need to assist your breathing for a 72 hrs to help you for a medically reversible condition, do you want that?" Blah blah blah (You know the MOLST, right, Q?? http://marylandmolst.org/ )

It's another required sheet in a patients chart. Yippee. It's a 3 page form. And SCUT work for medical students, so enjoy!

Anyways, my immigrant parents raised me to be adaptable. To be Filipino. But adapt and integrate into American society. And it permeates medicine too. Medicine is ugly. But I'll adapt to do it, like I've adapted to everything else. You can stay rooted in whatever you want philosophically, just understand, in the face of compromise to practice medicine, if it's what you really want to do - you might be on the losing end of that struggle more than you thought.

Kudos to you if you will stand firm in your convictions, and after 4 years of med school (+ whatever you do post-bacc or getting in) AND your residency, you walk away because your beliefs are that strong. You have a price. Sorry. Uncle Sam will want his "mortgage" back from you. There are other 6-figure jobs out there you can easily apply to w/ an MD, right?

 

[deleted307836]

Nice post, Gflip. The idea of medicine being very different in culture and practice now than it was even in the relatively recent past (~10 years) is something that I've caught onto working in a clinical setting.

IMO, it makes Canada look like a pretty good potential option (not even joking when saying that, though my knowledge is pretty limited about it). Although its system has its own problems, it seems to be set up better for physician happiness (i.e., practicing medicine and not spending at least half your time going through reams of paperwork and other bureaucratic challenges).

 

[RockDoc7]

I understand some people are looking "worth" or "value" in the process, and JourneyAgent is an entertaining voice in this. Medicine isn't like the way it was even 10 years ago. The bureaucrats won. I am told stories about older FM's or IM's being either forced into retiring, shutting their private practices, or COMPLYING w/ all the rules. You don't switch to EMR approved by Medicare/aid, sorry charlie, NO MONEY FOR YOU!!

And we WASTE so much $$$ based on legal issues. I'm sure Q can confirm that no matter what is wrong w/ your head (migraine, tension HA, whatever) you will get a CT scan. Even though your presentation and what many of you future docs will learn about Pre-test Probability is so extremely low, you order one anyways! The workup does stop after that CT, but it's a "safety measure" that is required. And we just irradiated someone I and no other doctor thought needed.

Medicine is quite ugly these days. And I know people transitioning from other healthcare positions to physician understand it fully. But to some of you pre-meds, you have no clue. And I've seen threads about naive pre-meds questioning their motives because they get their EC/shadowing experience, and get bombarded by "don't do it!" Seriously listen to them. It's not some mean hazing experience, or a test of your resolve. It's folks "in the trenches" telling you the truth.

HONESTLY, sit down and think real long about if you want to go thru this and arrive at the modern practice of medicine. The luster of being a physician is gone. The "yellow brick road of gold" has been pilfered pillaged and sold. You don't end up w/ a good paying job that's easy to do. NOPE, you get oppressed like everyone else collecting a paycheck...just by different factors. NOT in your control. Sure you aren't digging ditches for pennies. However, the mental and philosophical/spiritual toll you pay to do this. THAT is part of the equation. The ditch digger doesn't lose any of that!

EVERYONE wants something from you. Patients. Administrators. Bureaucrats. I mean, we have new forms in the ICU and hospital based on "code status" that are becoming required. (Ironic considering the early discussion) You know we have to spend about 5 mins/patient w/ this like ala carte form. "Well, you say DNI, however, what if it's required because we need to assist your breathing for a 72 hrs to help you for a medically reversible condition, do you want that?" Blah blah blah (You know the MOLST, right, Q?? http://marylandmolst.org/ )

It's another required sheet in a patients chart. Yippee. It's a 3 page form. And SCUT work for medical students, so enjoy!

Anyways, my immigrant parents raised me to be adaptable. To be Filipino. But adapt and integrate into American society. And it permeates medicine too. Medicine is ugly. But I'll adapt to do it, like I've adapted to everything else. You can stay rooted in whatever you want philosophically, just understand, in the face of compromise to practice medicine, if it's what you really want to do - you might be on the losing end of that struggle more than you thought.

Kudos to you if you will stand firm in your convictions, and after 4 years of med school (+ whatever you do post-bacc or getting in) AND your residency, you walk away because your beliefs are that strong. You have a price. Sorry. Uncle Sam will want his "mortgage" back from you. There are other 6-figure jobs out there you can easily apply to w/ an MD, right?

Indeed, a brilliant post. I know you too are a non-trad as I will be. My profession right now is as a mental health social worker and am very well aware of the mundane, tedious, down right superfluous documentation and tests and specific orders from the powers that be that must be done in cases X, Y, & Z. It sucks, it's a burden, a time waster, and for the most part does not make much of a significant benefit to patient care or professional appreciation. I am also sure there are many nuances that a physician must face that I am still ignorant of in many ways, but in particular to the paperwork.

But clumping all pre-meds from the 22/23 y.o. with those of us that are older I see as an oversight. Because those of us that are older, have been working, have seen and participated in many facets of the world, our worldviews (for the most part) have been time tested and intrinsic, not emotionally fleeting. I would not assume that when one feels that medicine is a good fit for them, or feels "lead," that the SCUT work is not understood or known and I do believe that it needs to be made well aware of as you have outlined.

Still, maybe too much of an optimist that I can be, keeping a big picture perspective would presume to be part of the resolve through the cloaks and yokes of bureaucracy. I have noticed, however, throughout the SDN boards as well as through other websites, that there very much is a noticable change in perspective from the "general" pre-med population with that compared to attendings; with the progress slowly noticable in med students to residents. Can't deny the qualitative studies of thoughts from those who have gone through the trenches and how they end up on the other side.

But alas, I stay instrinsically hopeful as adaptability is also a great strength of mine.

 

[JourneyAgent]

Indeed, a brilliant post. I know you too are a non-trad as I will be. My profession right now is as a mental health social worker and am very well aware of the mundane, tedious, down right superfluous documentation and tests and specific orders from the powers that be that must be done in cases X, Y, & Z. It sucks, it's a burden, a time waster, and for the most part does not make much of a significant benefit to patient care or professional appreciation. I am also sure there are many nuances that a physician must face that I am still ignorant of in many ways, but in particular to the paperwork.

But clumping all pre-meds from the 22/23 y.o. with those of us that are older I see as an oversight. Because those of us that are older, have been working, have seen and participated in many facets of the world, our worldviews (for the most part) have been time tested and intrinsic, not emotionally fleeting. I would not assume that when one feels that medicine is a good fit for them, or feels "lead," that the SCUT work is not understood or known and I do believe that it needs to be made well aware of as you have outlined.

Still, maybe too much of an optimist that I can be, keeping a big picture perspective would presume to be part of the resolve through the cloaks and yokes of bureaucracy. I have noticed, however, throughout the SDN boards as well as through other websites, that there very much is a noticable change in perspective from the "general" pre-med population with that compared to attendings; with the progress slowly noticable in med students to residents. Can't deny the qualitative studies of thoughts from those who have gone through the trenches and how they end up on the other side.

But alas, I stay instrinsically hopeful as adaptability is also a great strength of mine.

That was a good post by Gflip. But so is yours. And you're in an extremely privilidged position as a social worker to see the unglamorous side of things. But like GFlip I think you are not normative in this regard--quite the opposite. There is no more hocus pocus going on that you don't see. There is some discussion of diagnoses and treatment and then planning on how to document everything out of bureaucratic imperative so that you can take over. It's just documentation.

So that this strange fervor that surrounds premed auditioning is a mind gang rape that leaves the victim desolate and confused. If you've dodged that bullet then your in better shape. Proceed to talk whatever game you need to in order to get in.

Alright, I've beat this to death. I'm starting to bore myself. I'm out, good luck!

 

[RockDoc7]

That was a good post by Gflip. But so is yours. And you're in an extremely privilidged position as a social worker to see the unglamorous side of things. But like GFlip I think you are not normative in this regard--quite the opposite. There is no more hocus pocus going on that you don't see. There is some discussion of diagnoses and treatment and then planning on how to document everything out of bureaucratic imperative so that you can take over. It's just documentation.

So that this strange fervor that surrounds premed auditioning is a mind gang rape that leaves the victim desolate and confused. If you've dodged that bullet then your in better shape. Proceed to talk whatever game you need to in order to get in.

Alright, I've beat this to death. I'm starting to bore myself. I'm out, good luck!

Ha. Truly, thanks for your input JourneyAgent. Cheers mate.

 

[Gfliptastic]

My motives for most of my posts for pre-meds deciding this process, is a byproduct of ME being one of the naive. I had excellent EC and shadowing experiences. I deflected a lot of the negativity, including my cousin (an ER doc). I felt slighted by his constant inquiries about whether or not I was sure about pursuing the same road he did...as a non-trad himself, starting med school at age 30.

I don't post out of meanness. Again, when I've had friends who are doctors or some older docs buzz in my ear about my decision years ago, I felt personally insulted. Do they not believe in my capacity to handle medical school? Do they not think I'm mentally tough enough to handle the harsh realities and daily schedules of medical school? And it actually pushed me. I was completely driven.

Lo and behold, here I am. If I wanted to I could get in everyone's face and say, "Ha ha ha, eat crow. I told you so!!!" I'm almost a 4th year, and it seems every year of med school has completely erased any gloaty impulse from me. I find myself thinking, "Crap. They are/were partly right."

Do I stop? I've got a houseless mortgage to Uncle Sam he'll get from me one way or another. I'm cool. I'll just adapt. I'll jump all the lil hoops. It's nothing like I expected. There's no utopia. It's all a business like everything else.

The art of medicine is becoming the procedural process of medicine. Injection bruises on everyone in a bed's abdomen, despite their individual low risks of DVT. PPI's for all!!! Just in case a patient contracts a bug that would normally be killed by stomach acid. CT's for almost anyone w/ a brain. Chest X-rays for anyone who coughs! CT abdomen for anyone w/ a stomach ache!!

There's a protocol for most things now. Part best practices part defensive medicine. Not sure if you know that. So I just leave that for your (dis)approval.

Edit: Here you go. Treat a DVT. (Although YES, you will learn pre-test probability as a medical student/doctor so not any smart well-trained high school student can do this job)

 

[JourneyAgent]

Ok, ok, ok (joe Pesci) here's da one last ting on dis subject, that I would be remiss not to counter myself with.

It's important to have a lower set point for satisfaction given all the above as Gflip has elaborated on perfectly. Dandy. But...it also important to build up a resilient creative and positive and aggressive search for as rewarding a career in medicine as you can accomplish. One that need not be burdened with the storybook version that seems inevitable from admissions process.

It's very important to find inspirational mentors and people who have fashioned creative careers that you would like to see yourself in. This is why I like Conrad Fisher's style of teaching, I have personal ones but he's national enough to give you the sense of a proper teacher. He inspires. And we need that just as much as a hard edged hustle for the execution your own career design.

I'm convinced entrepreneurial skill is a key factor.

But as Fischer so eloquently points out, the gloom in medicine covers the fact that we can do more for people now than we ever have been able to before. Our economic position has slid dramatically, and maybe the quality of worklife has greatly diminished, if we are to take our senior's word for it. But this is still a solid career in a rapidly vanishing middle class. And as haggard and harried as our attendings are, they are still given more respect than any career I'm familiar with. So many careers are thankless. So this is what I mean by reapect. There is enough people who still appreciate your sacrifices to earn the knowledge and skill to help them.

That's not everything. But it's something.

 

[QofQuimica]

Regarding that DVT diagnosis algorithm, the problem is that pretest probability is an essential consideration. Many would argue (and I agree) that it's not appropriate to get d-dimers on high risk individuals (and that goes for diagnosing PE too, FWIW). It's true that d-dimers are a pretty sensitive test (few false negatives), but not very specific (many false positives). So yes, they are good for ruling out a clot in a low risk patient who you think is unlikely to have one anyway. However, if your pretest probability of clot is high, then who cares what the d-dimer says? If your pregnant patient with a PMH of Factor V Leiden who just got off a plane from Australia with the swollen, painful leg is sitting there in front of you, are you really not going to duplex her leg if her d-dimer is negative? Especially when, unlike with CT angio or V/Q scans to check for PE, duplex U/S is noninvasive, requires no contrast, and gives no radiation to the patient? And especially when, if that DVT progresses to PE, it could be life-threatening for the patient, and when we have the ability to effectively treat DVT/PE?

 

[Gfliptastic]

Hey, I was doing some devil's advocacy. I already stated my "thread" woven into the tapestry of why I pursued medicine, and it fits into JourneyAgent's response.

If I've made it swing too far over, or just painted a picture of an extremely disgruntled individual, I'll come back w/ my ICU stories and say that we MS3's get 2 patients to follow/present in the ICU. I've had 4 ICU patients, and it will be 5 patients probably as I'm typing. Because through careful management of 2 of my patients who looked like hammered s*** when I got to the ICU, I was so inspired REGARDLESS of all the hell I went thru all these years to get to the ICU, when I saw these women improve, gradually day by day. From intubation, to bipap, to aerosol rebreather, to nasal cannula. To 2L NC and very pleasant to talk to and spend time w/. And finally discharged.

W/o medical intervention, these women were just waiting for the funeral home. In part to what I did, however insignificant some might want to think, because I don't write orders or dictate their care, these women went home.

I've helped send a lot of patients home. I've helped heal a lot of patients. I've brought lives into this world by delivering babies. Eased suffering. There really isn't another job that comes close.

There's an article in our school's "publicity" flyer about one of our grads in Boston, who finished working a long shift right before the bomb at the marathon blew up. His hospital being one of the closest to the finish line, he did a u-turn and drove back, and helped some of those victims. Pretty awesome, ya know!?

IDK, in the end, as probably MY last post about this, I can compare it to working in a restaurant serving tables. Sometimes the atmosphere sucks. Sometimes the dishes get heavy and uncomfortable to bear. Sometimes the patrons are drunken a**holes you would wish someone else would wait on. Some people eat a lot. Some people order very little. It doesn't matter. You'll be used and abused some days. But if you REALLY like waiting tables, no matter what everything else around is like, so be it. There's also cook. Dishwasher. Bus boy. Maitre d'. In this metaphorical restaurant. Ask yourself what is so wrong w/ that before you decide.

P.S. - That was the first image to pop up in google and I wasn't going to log into Uptodate to get a better one. However, at least you gave people a taste of pre-test probability. I mean, the core of a medical career is pre-test probability, so get used to it! lol

 

[sengineer]

I really enjoyed the posts that highlighted the stress and difficulties of medical school. I don't think anyone can predict the degree of difficulty for nontrad student but what most ppl can agree is that it is extremely difficult especially for those married with kids and no other strong financial support. I started the journey last summer and took it a little slow much to the dismay of my wife but still worked full time. I am 36 with 2 young kids and I have not fully decided to pursue it but I am trying regardless as I figure there is nothing to lose. If life's unexpectancies arrive just as they did before (which pushed into a diff career) I will consider alternatives but at least I tried to get in. If I get in well look at the long term objectives...I will be working until I am 65 or dead anyway, it may as well be doing something I enjoy and from the financial aspect i will still be making a little less after 6 years of med school.

 

[Pinoak]

If I could do it all again, I'd have done pharmacy instead of medicine. It's much more in keeping with my interests, and I could have gotten into a similar career via the pharmacy route in much less time than it's taking me to get there via the medicine route. People talk about how fascinating the human body is, and some of it is, but a lot of med school is sheer memorization and boring as all get out. Practicing medicine as a resident has been largely a mixture of boredom and terror with a few meaningful patient interactions sprinkled in here and there among the rest of it. As I just told someone else who PMed me about this topic, what it comes down to is that I'd rather be the one advising physicians on how to properly use drugs than be the one prescribing them.


If I won the lottery, I would do my program director the courtesy of stopping by his office to let him know I was leaving on my way out.

Hi Doc. Q. I am an audiologist. I went to 4 year AuD program, took $100+K loan. I worked as an audiologist for a couple of years. I was miserable at my job. I am admitted to the PharmD program. I am trying to decide whether giving up earning potential, taking additional loan for school. Would you tell me what you like about the Pharmacy career?

 

[monami]

Hi Doc. Q. I am an audiologist. I went to 4 year AuD program, took $100+K loan. I worked as an audiologist for a couple of years. I was miserable at my job. I am admitted to the PharmD program. I am trying to decide whether giving up earning potential, taking additional loan for school. Would you tell me what you like about the Pharmacy career?

I would steer clear of PharmD. The pharmacy field is experiencing a surplus of PharmD's with little job prospects. You would also have to tack on another >100K for a PharmD. If you're really interested in pharmacy, go the research route and get a PhD in pharmaceutical sciences.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm going to echo this sentiment. I was always fascinated by biology, enjoy spending time in hospitals and truly learning. But, med school is just how fast can you memorize everything. It's not the learning I enjoy. It's literally... here are thousands of fungi/bacteria... memorize them. Test tomorrow. Good luck.

I took a risk going to med school, but it was calculated. I worked had another career in pharma I could always return to that pays well over $100k.

I'm likely to leave med school and put medicine behind me. I think med school would only be worth it to me on a full scholarship at this point (which I don't have). It is not worth the $200k+ and lost income. I came to learn and enjoy learning, to become a caring compassionate person and excellent physician. I was basically asked to open books, understand nothing, memorize everything. Med school is hard, stressful and large parts of it are just plain boring.

People talk about how fascinating the human body is, and some of it is, but a lot of med school is sheer memorization and boring as all get out. Practicing medicine as a resident has been largely a mixture of boredom and terror with a few meaningful patient interactions sprinkled in here and there among the rest of it.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi Doc. Q. I am an audiologist. I went to 4 year AuD program, took $100+K loan. I worked as an audiologist for a couple of years. I was miserable at my job. I am admitted to the PharmD program. I am trying to decide whether giving up earning potential, taking additional loan for school. Would you tell me what you like about the Pharmacy career?

One thing that I, like many pre-health students, didn't recognize prior to starting medical school is that there is quite a lot more flexibility with what can be done with a PharmD besides taking a job at your local CVS or Walgreens. In medical school, I was taught pharmacology by academic pharmacists. These are people who, after pharmacy school, had completed residencies and become subspecialized in their fields, analogous to how some dentists choose to do residencies and some physicians choose to do fellowships. There are pharmacists who specialize in cardiac drugs, GI drugs, critical care drugs, and many more. There are pharmacists who round with ICU teams and work out of ERs, showing up to codes and dispensing drugs. There are pharmacists who are involved with research studies and run poison control centers. And of course, academic pharmacists do a lot of teaching of pharmacy/medical students and residents. I do not think a retail pharmacy career would have been a good fit for me, but if I had gone to pharmacy school, I would have done a pharmacy residency and become an academic pharmacist. Considering that we have a top notch state pharmacy school at UF here in Florida, it would have been a financially feasible thing to do as well.

I didn't read the whole thread, but I'm going to echo this sentiment. I was always fascinated by biology, enjoy spending time in hospitals and truly learning. But, med school is just how fast can you memorize everything. It's not the learning I enjoy. It's literally... here are thousands of fungi/bacteria... memorize them. Test tomorrow. Good luck.

I took a risk going to med school, but it was calculated. I worked had another career in pharma I could always return to that pays well over $100k.

I'm likely to leave med school and put medicine behind me. I think med school would only be worth it to me on a full scholarship at this point (which I don't have). It is not worth the $200k+ and lost income. I came to learn and enjoy learning, to become a caring compassionate person and excellent physician. I was basically asked to open books, understand nothing, memorize everything. Med school is hard, stressful and large parts of it are just plain boring.

I forget what year you're in now, Ms, but hang in there. It does get better as you specialize more and have more control over what you will be learning. I would argue that coming out of a graduate or scientific background in particular, where everyone is on their own path seeking out new knowledge, can make for a difficult transition to medicine, where all must march through their well-trodden training path in lockstep. The MS1 year is especially frustrating for those who enjoy learning for its own sake. But once you're an attending (and even at the fellow stage, since fellowships are optional), you can have considerably more control over what you do with your time. Don't give up on a career in medicine before you've had a chance to sample more of the available options. I had no concept of the existence of my chosen subspecialty until halfway through my MS3 year, and even then, I stumbled upon it largely by accident.

 

[mspeedwagon]

I'm finishing off MS-1. I'm not sure I have much more steam left to continue. Part of this has to do with our schools brilliant plan to give us 7 exams in 5 days. Part of this has to do with the fact that we continue on to summer school. I've basically been exhausted all year, running on minimal sleep and dealing with high levels of stress/anxiety learning material that bores me to death. But, I realize this is only one year of med school. If I could do it all over again, I'd pick a school with no summer classes. It would give me the chance to re-group. I feel the evil thing about this process is that the further you go, the harder it is to back out. Wait till MS-3 to leave and you kind of need a physician salary to be able to exit medicine. While I expected M1 year to be really hard, I expected it to be interesting. I keep drawing parallels to the life I left behind (the one that paid me 100k+ for less than 40 hrs of work) and my heart is slowly less and less in it, but we shall see.

But, to the OP, I'd really weigh what you are doing now vs. how much a life in medicine means to you. For non-trads, this path is difficult and the one less traveled.

I forget what year you're in now, Ms, but hang in there. It does get better as you specialize more and have more control over what you will be learning. I would argue that coming out of a graduate or scientific background in particular, where everyone is on their own path seeking out new knowledge, can make for a difficult transition to medicine, where all must march through their well-trodden training path in lockstep. The MS1 year is especially frustrating for those who enjoy learning for its own sake. But once you're an attending (and even at the fellow stage, since fellowships are optional), you can have considerably more control over what you do with your time. Don't give up on a career in medicine before you've had a chance to sample more of the available options. I had no concept of the existence of my chosen subspecialty until halfway through my MS3 year, and even then, I stumbled upon it largely by accident.

 

[LabMonster]

I understand that this is a personal question needed to be done with soul searching of my own; of which I have been and will continue to do. But the time spent, the money needed (loans), marriage/family life, the length of time, etc. is it worth the sacrifices necessary to go to medical school and become a medical doctor (specifically as a non-trad)?

I know I'm not the only one who has weighed the checks and balances before me; all have to some extent. Thus I ensue a positive and safe place for conversation, thoughts, and struggles to be shared in this thread.

I myself am a married non-trad pre-med switching from social work to medicine and have had many conversations with my wife about the sacrifices needed of us both to make MD/DO possible; including going the post-bacc route. They have not always been pleasant and light-hearted conversations but have always been in love. Some of our concerns have been further loan debt atop by undergrad, financial strain and obligation for her to work to support us while I'd be in school, when to start having kids with school and work in the picture, and making sure we have time to feel loved and supported by one another with time off.

Thank you for any and all thoughts.

I think we need awesome social workers. I don't know how we make them , but good data supports social work decreases medical expenditures and increases population health. I'd hate to lose a good social worker.

I was almost 30 when I started med-school. My wife was into it. We didn't have kids. We HAD kids during med school, one born second year and twins into my fourth year.

I've read the prior posts... The sacrifice is real. Medical school sucks. Residency sucks. It's really hard on your wife and your kids. Residency, especially is very hard - there will be periods where you don't see them for days. Days.

Money is always a problem, medical school is usually and universally expensive - and it takes multiple loans to not only pay the tuition bills, but to make ends meet. Then you have residency, crappy pay for -let's be honest- back breaking work.

So it's super hard. It will put a great stress on your marriage and your relationship with your children. It will. It is NOT EASY.

You both have to be up to it - and by that I mean your wife has to be ridiculously skilled in managing children solo, she also needs to be able to roll with any schedule interruptions without pause. If you need to be in a surgery, she needs to watch the kids. If you need to be at a lecture, she needs to provide the backup in childcare. If you need to study: she needs to handle the distractions.

It's hard for the "non-trad" medical student. The usual SDN dialogue refers to a 20-something pre-med without other responsibilities. I mean no disrespect, but most people posting on the general forums don't have a damn clue. I bet you've been up all night with a sick kid - that automatically gives you street cred.

It's not easy. It won't "fix" anything in your view treating people. It may be too damn hard on your family.

From posts, it appears like you have a strong faith. Good for you. It also appears that you are well balanced and well centered.

I will reiterate that you can do anything, your medical ambition sounds great, but I'd love to have your support in social services. Can you do more in social work? Can social work fill the void you seek in the medical profession? The MD sounds good, but maybe you are awesome at what you do. I would hate to lose one damn good social worker to the "medical field" because you think you can make more of a difference. You can't. We need MORE social workers, and you are underpaid and disproportionately not respected.

Follow your heart. Know that the MD is very hard, will place a strain on your marriage and your relationship with your children - more than you expect. Know that you may be able to affect more, better change as a social worker.

Sorry for the tirade. Good luck RockDoc7.

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm finishing off MS-1. I'm not sure I have much more steam left to continue. Part of this has to do with our schools brilliant plan to give us 7 exams in 5 days. Part of this has to do with the fact that we continue on to summer school. I've basically been exhausted all year, running on minimal sleep and dealing with high levels of stress/anxiety learning material that bores me to death. But, I realize this is only one year of med school. If I could do it all over again, I'd pick a school with no summer classes. It would give me the chance to re-group. I feel the evil thing about this process is that the further you go, the harder it is to back out. Wait till MS-3 to leave and you kind of need a physician salary to be able to exit medicine. While I expected M1 year to be really hard, I expected it to be interesting. I keep drawing parallels to the life I left behind (the one that paid me 100k+ for less than 40 hrs of work) and my heart is slowly less and less in it, but we shall see.

But, to the OP, I'd really weigh what you are doing now vs. how much a life in medicine means to you. For non-trads, this path is difficult and the one less traveled.

Well, if you are going to bail, you're right: better to do it sooner rather than later. In other words, either bail right now before you're in too much of a financial hole, or else make up your mind that you're going to see this through to the end of residency. There really isn't a middle path.

FWIW, I thought MS2 year, with its greater emphasis on pathology, was much more interesting than MS1 year. But it was also more work and more stress, especially with Step 1 coming at the tail end of it.

 

[Labrat07]

I'm finishing off MS-1. I'm not sure I have much more steam left to continue. Part of this has to do with our schools brilliant plan to give us 7 exams in 5 days. Part of this has to do with the fact that we continue on to summer school. I've basically been exhausted all year, running on minimal sleep and dealing with high levels of stress/anxiety learning material that bores me to death. But, I realize this is only one year of med school. If I could do it all over again, I'd pick a school with no summer classes. It would give me the chance to re-group. I feel the evil thing about this process is that the further you go, the harder it is to back out. Wait till MS-3 to leave and you kind of need a physician salary to be able to exit medicine. While I expected M1 year to be really hard, I expected it to be interesting. I keep drawing parallels to the life I left behind (the one that paid me 100k+ for less than 40 hrs of work) and my heart is slowly less and less in it, but we shall see.

But, to the OP, I'd really weigh what you are doing now vs. how much a life in medicine means to you. For non-trads, this path is difficult and the one less traveled.

@mspeedwagon 2 years ago, you were such an optimistic hopeful premed. After 1 years in med school, the reality set in. Your view changed completely. That does really make me think at a deeper level. Right now, my motivation is really high. I know for a fact if I don't give this a try, this will haunt me forever. Given all the tell signs of others, it's kinda insane lol. Maybe I'll feel the same way in the future. By that time, If i don't feel it's right for me, I'd bail asap. Life is too short to wait for what if. My question is: Do everybody at your school feel the same way?? or is this your personal preferences/experience?

 

[H2Oman]

One thing that I, like many pre-health students, didn't recognize prior to starting medical school is that there is quite a lot more flexibility with what can be done with a PharmD besides taking a job at your local CVS or Walgreens. In medical school, I was taught pharmacology by academic pharmacists. These are people who, after pharmacy school, had completed residencies and become subspecialized in their fields, analogous to how some dentists choose to do residencies and some physicians choose to do fellowships. There are pharmacists who specialize in cardiac drugs, GI drugs, critical care drugs, and many more. There are pharmacists who round with ICU teams and work out of ERs, showing up to codes and dispensing drugs. There are pharmacists who are involved with research studies and run poison control centers. And of course, academic pharmacists do a lot of teaching of pharmacy/medical students and residents. I do not think a retail pharmacy career would have been a good fit for me, but if I had gone to pharmacy school, I would have done a pharmacy residency and become an academic pharmacist. Considering that we have a top notch state pharmacy school at UF here in Florida, it would have been a financially feasible thing to do as well.

I'll just tack on the my wife works in a sterile clean-room pharmacy making TPN bags. So things like that are an option. Recently a nuclear pharm job came up that she looked at but it was a night job and with our young son neither of us want that. Another pharm pointed out that a local psych hospital is looking for a Director of Pharm and she's considering that application but likely won't (I'm not sure she realizes she's not going to apply yet but I see it. =) ). There are lots of options.


To the question of whether or not medicine is worth the means: I believe it will be for me. It's been a hard road to even come to that decision for me; I'll give a brief background and maybe that will explain a little.
I've always been a smart person but had really terrible people around me, barely graduated high school, dropped out of university before I failed out and got a job laboring for a local water utility. I started taking certification exams and realized I needed to stop partying. I got higher level certs, got a new job in drinking water treatment and made an effort to be less of a mess. More certifications: journey/advanced journey in both drinking water disciplines; worked tons of hours--nights, weekends, holidays, on-call. Had my job threatened by management; was accosted by customers. One old man thanked me, "You're the unsung heroes of this city." Only time I've ever received appreciation for what I do in 10+ years of doing it.
I continued to be unhappy with my work--I was consistently the smartest guy in the room and still a peon. I thought my unhappiness was due to where I was living--semi-rural capital of a big-square state.
I moved to California metro. Got a job at a big, political water agency. Started up a commissioned and still run an award winning advanced water purification facility. Still not liking what I've been doing, I started back at school thinking engineering was the ticket for me--I get along and communicate well with the engineers; I've got experience in this field: engineering seems like the natural course. I would be miserable as an engineer. It's all meetings, memos, drawings; there is no significant human interaction.
This last point led me to health care. In what I do or as an engineer my work would impact vast numbers of people but none of them would ever see it or know that I exist. I don't like that; I want to be face to face with the people I'm helping/impacting. This narrows my specialty choices down a bit too because I love the idea of radiology or anesthesiology; from a scientific perspective these fields are incredibly intriguing to me however, I don't feel they would provide enough patient interaction to satisfy me.
I was thinking nursing because of the toll of medical school and there is lots of patient interaction in nursing. Unfortunately, my wife and I don't see much of each other already and our son is 7 months old. I respect what nurses do. I think I would be good at it. What has driven me away is a deep desire to understand things at a fundamental level. I don't want to just know, "this is why we do XYZ." I want to know on the most fundamental level, why XYZ is a functional possibility in a given scenario.

Is this path worth it? Quantitatively, barely. ROI on a given medical specialty vs what I'm already doing or getting an engineering degree is probably not the wisest financial choice; prior to realizing that I have to get out of my career field my aim was to be able to retire in my 40s. Going into medicine I hope to be practicing by 45 but I hope to practice until a ripe old age. As opposed to what I'm doing now where my goal is to get out ASAP.

Part of this too, is me acting on a belief. I lived for so much of my life without anyone believing in me and believing myself to be very lucky to gotten as far as I had. I am grateful to be where I am but I no longer believe I have limited potential so going back to school while working full time and having a wife and kids with the intention of impeccable grades so that I can get into medical school is a test of myself. I have had little to no idea of what I'm actually capable of because I've always been told I'm barely capable of anything. As I've removed the miserable people from my life the shackles of oppressive denigration have been removed and I want to put to myself a challenge. To become a physician is a challenge with the reward of being able to help people in an advanced capacity.

I also want to put out that not everyone is capable of succeeding at medical school or becoming a physician. It hold strong the belief that as I am capable, it is incumbent upon me to do what I can to help others. I could go dig wells for people without water but almost anyone could do that. To ignore my capabilities is not only a disservice to myself but to my fellow humans as well.

So is it worth it? I don't think the cost is something I even consider. It's just something I have to do. But I'd be lying if I said I haven't stayed up at night crying in fear of what it could do to my family but that only strengthens my resolve to manage my time well and ensure they receive the time and attention the need.

That got longer than I intended. Hopefully you get something from my perspective.

 

[Gfliptastic]

This thread still alive and chugging. Wow. What perspective it adds, considering I originally posted here as med student, and now I can post a few weeks away from being PGY-2 in Internal Medicine.

Is it worth it? F*** no! The hassle vs the gratification should really make all hopeful future doctors consider this the last resort!! Not the go-to. Go be a PA if you want to practice medicine. It's so close to the same job at like 75-80% of the pay but w/o all the headaches, woes, lost time, loss of your life, putting things on hold.

Every field has disgruntled employees, however, few occupations require so much sacrifice, mentally, physically, financially, socially than being a doctor. And during AM rounds just this week, I listened to my current attending harp and gripe about how she really wishes she was a PA. In the framework of her young daughter (I think 3 or 4 yo) grow up w/o her. Being a doctor carries awesome wonderful responsibilities, but it also carries awesome troublesome responsibilities as well. In the United States. Where medicine comes w/ a caveat that if you happen to make a mistake, chances are you'll be sued. Which is absolutely NOT what happens in other countries.

Why a PA? Because if an adverse event happens, sure you will be part of the litigation. HOWEVER, the ultimate responsibility falls upon the doctor, regardless of if you are directly supervised or not. The burden of responsibility falls entirely upon the physician.

I've done it. Boohoo med school. MS1. Step 1. Step 2's. Pre-clinicals sitting on my ass all day studying. Clinicals rushing around being a lackey on a medical team. Graduated w/ an MD. W/ +10 months of residency under my belt too. And none of you (except the other doctors or residents who have posted) have a clue how much residency sucks. You think MS1 sucks? MS3? Be an intern and tell me you believe that med school was tough. Not to belittle med school at all. When you're swimming in it, it sure as heck is tough. Again, been there, done that, sell t-shirts, give tours. But it's nothing like residency.

Quit while you're ahead. Not in med school yet? Go to PA school if your longing burning desire is to do this. Save your $$ and at least 2 years of your life!!

I graduated from med school w/ rose colored glasses. Because I expected all the gripes to end. I was going to slap on that ID badge that has a little placard that reads "DOCTOR" in big letters and it was going to be fantastic. Not to say I didn't think residency was a cake-walk. But I didn't expect to meet anyone (I thought was sane) to be disgruntled about being a physician. I wanted to be a doctor since 2nd grade. And I'm doing it. I'm "living the dream". What a mirage!

And oh, maybe I'm not done w/ residency yet. I'm not an attending. Sure. But all the attendings I talk to tell me to enjoy residency!?!?!?!???? Cuz aside from the pay hike, it really doesn't change. Oh yeah, except I can more readily be sued. And worry about one mishap resulting in a threat to having all I've worked for taken away.

 

[mspeedwagon]

Honestly, I still feel this way. If I could do it all over again, I'd still go. Being in med school has helped me realize that I'm really not sure I want to be here. I would have always lived with the regret otherwise. Also, I paid for the year with savings and took out no loans so, it was basically the worst vacation year possible out of the work force. But, in the grand scheme of things, the time/money won't matter that much to me. So, I'll have to work an extra year to get to financial freedom, no biggie!

@mspeedwagon I know for a fact if I don't give this a try, this will haunt me forever.

 

[Labrat07]

Honestly, I still feel this way. If I could do it all over again, I'd still go. Being in med school has helped me realize that I'm really not sure I want to be here. I would have always lived with the regret otherwise. Also, I paid for the year with savings and took out no loans so, it was basically the worst vacation year possible out of the work force. But, in the grand scheme of things, the time/money won't matter that much to me. So, I'll have to work an extra year to get to financial freedom, no biggie!

In your situation, I think it's worth it to spend that year in med school. Even if you're out, it's not a big deal and you can live without regret.

 

[occams_razor]

This thread still alive and chugging. Wow. What perspective it adds, considering I originally posted here as med student, and now I can post a few weeks away from being PGY-2 in Internal Medicine.

Is it worth it? F*** no! The hassle vs the gratification should really make all hopeful future doctors consider this the last resort!! Not the go-to. Go be a PA if you want to practice medicine. It's so close to the same job at like 75-80% of the pay but w/o all the headaches, woes, lost time, loss of your life, putting things on hold.

Every field has disgruntled employees, however, few occupations require so much sacrifice, mentally, physically, financially, socially than being a doctor. And during AM rounds just this week, I listened to my current attending harp and gripe about how she really wishes she was a PA. In the framework of her young daughter (I think 3 or 4 yo) grow up w/o her. Being a doctor carries awesome wonderful responsibilities, but it also carries awesome troublesome responsibilities as well. In the United States. Where medicine comes w/ a caveat that if you happen to make a mistake, chances are you'll be sued. Which is absolutely NOT what happens in other countries.

Why a PA? Because if an adverse event happens, sure you will be part of the litigation. HOWEVER, the ultimate responsibility falls upon the doctor, regardless of if you are directly supervised or not. The burden of responsibility falls entirely upon the physician.

I've done it. Boohoo med school. MS1. Step 1. Step 2's. Pre-clinicals sitting on my ass all day studying. Clinicals rushing around being a lackey on a medical team. Graduated w/ an MD. W/ +10 months of residency under my belt too. And none of you (except the other doctors or residents who have posted) have a clue how much residency sucks. You think MS1 sucks? MS3? Be an intern and tell me you believe that med school was tough. Not to belittle med school at all. When you're swimming in it, it sure as heck is tough. Again, been there, done that, sell t-shirts, give tours. But it's nothing like residency.

Quit while you're ahead. Not in med school yet? Go to PA school if your longing burning desire is to do this. Save your $$ and at least 2 years of your life!!

I graduated from med school w/ rose colored glasses. Because I expected all the gripes to end. I was going to slap on that ID badge that has a little placard that reads "DOCTOR" in big letters and it was going to be fantastic. Not to say I didn't think residency was a cake-walk. But I didn't expect to meet anyone (I thought was sane) to be disgruntled about being a physician. I wanted to be a doctor since 2nd grade. And I'm doing it. I'm "living the dream". What a mirage!

And oh, maybe I'm not done w/ residency yet. I'm not an attending. Sure. But all the attendings I talk to tell me to enjoy residency!?!?!?!???? Cuz aside from the pay hike, it really doesn't change. Oh yeah, except I can more readily be sued. And worry about one mishap resulting in a threat to having all I've worked for taken away.

Reading stuff like this makes me nervous about starting med school in a few months. The dichotomy I've experienced is very strange. I have met doctors who are very happy and fulfilled and others who are like this poster - miserable and telling me I'm making a huge mistake. The latter can be very discouraging.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[mspeedwagon]

I wouldn't listen to anyone. Go to med school and see if your heart is in it. If you want to abandon practice, there are always physician jobs in pharma. If you hate med school early enough, you can drop out. It's impossible to know whether medicine is for you without experiencing med school. I have thousands of hrs of shadowing under my belt and while I'd likely enjoy medicine, the training process is brutal.

Reading stuff like this makes me nervous about starting med school in a few months. The dichotomy I've experienced is very strange. I have met doctors who are very happy and fulfilled and others who are like this poster - miserable and telling me I'm making a huge mistake. The latter can be very discouraging.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[QofQuimica]

Reading stuff like this makes me nervous about starting med school in a few months. The dichotomy I've experienced is very strange. I have met doctors who are very happy and fulfilled and others who are like this poster - miserable and telling me I'm making a huge mistake. The latter can be very discouraging.

He's an intern in internal medicine. Taking anything he says with a whole shaker of salt. Not because he's wrong, but because asking an intern if medicine is "worth it" is like asking a woman in the throes of childbirth without anesthesia if having children is "worth it." Heck, if I had known what intern year would be like before I started medical school, I would never have matriculated. Now having been out of residency for a couple of years, my view is unsurprisingly more balanced. There are some serious cons to a career in medicine, but there are plenty of pros, too.

That being said, caveat emptor. There's a reason why premeds need to do their due diligence and shadow/volunteer/work in health care before applying. Being broadsided by the realities of medicine not meeting your expectations is a recipe for bitterness and unhappiness. And if you do realize you were wrong partway down the primrose path, you probably won't be able to afford to quit.

 

[occams_razor]

He's an intern in internal medicine. Taking anything he says with a whole shaker of salt. Not because he's wrong, but because asking an intern if medicine is "worth it" is like asking a woman in the throes of childbirth without anesthesia if having children is "worth it." Heck, if I had known what intern year would be like before I started medical school, I would never have matriculated. Now having been out of residency for a couple of years, my view is unsurprisingly more balanced. There are some serious cons to a career in medicine, but there are plenty of pros, too.

That being said, caveat emptor. There's a reason why premeds need to do their due diligence and shadow/volunteer/work in health care before applying. Being broadsided by the realities of medicine not meeting your expectations is a recipe for bitterness and unhappiness. And if you do realize you were wrong partway down the primrose path, you probably won't be able to afford to quit.

Thanks for this. I have over a thousand hours of clinical experience and have been so excited about going to med school. The day I got in was one of my happiest moments. But this thread gives me pause. I love medicine and working with patients. I can't imagine doing anything else. I also love my family and spending time with my spouse and we want to have kids. We have a great marriage and I don't want that to get messed up. I'm a very family oriented person and I'd rather have less money if it means getting to spend more time with my family. Even though I have a lot of clinical experience, I know enough to know that I don't really have any idea what med school and eventually being a doctor will truly be like. I can't at this stage.


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[occams_razor]

I wouldn't listen to anyone. Go to med school and see if your heart is in it. If you want to abandon practice, there are always physician jobs in pharma. If you hate med school early enough, you can drop out. It's impossible to know whether medicine is for you without experiencing med school. I have thousands of hrs of shadowing under my belt and while I'd likely enjoy medicine, the training process is brutal.

Do you think your experience would be different if you were at a different med school? Or does that not matter much? Just based on what I saw and heard when I was interviewing and then going to second look weekends, it seems like there were some schools that were more focused on student wellness and reducing burnout and others that were more competitive and brutal where students seemed unhappy


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[mspeedwagon]

The answer is yes. I do feel it would have been different. Knowing what I know now, I'd have tried everything to get into a school in the city I already lived in. Moving, making friends and adjusting on top of M1 year workload for a non-trad (30+) that had a very established life prior was utterly brutal.

I would have also gone to a school with a systems based curriculum and a block testing schedule. The only thing I like about med school was learning about diseases. I wish there was more integration into the first year curriculum. This goes back to Q's point where my second year may be better.

There was one school in particular that identified me as a student likely to struggle and wanted to admit me and put me into a program with tutors and mandatory faculty meetings since they thought I wouldn't be successful without it. At the time, I shrugged it off because I'd normally done pretty well academically. The thought I'd be struggling or ever considering quitting was completely foreign to me last year. I don't know if the outcome would have been different, but I do believe that that would have given me more tools to keep me in the game and motivated.

Do you think your experience would be different if you were at a different med school? Or does that not matter much? Just based on what I saw and heard when I was interviewing and then going to second look weekends, it seems like there were some schools that were more focused on student wellness and reducing burnout and others that were more competitive and brutal where students seemed unhappy


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[Gfliptastic]

Warped perspective or not, just understand that there are other ways to practice medicine. If it's an elitist mentality that being a PA is beneath you, you are probably the one who is going to get smacked in the face really hard when you realize that the PA's are doing basically the same job, but didn't have to endure 7 years of a f**ked up life to do it.

You like your marriage? You want kids? Wow, that almost flies in the face of going to med school and says PA school. My attending (same as mentioned) and my co-intern, a married mother of two, are mostly woeful about raising kids as physicians. My attending called it "outsourcing" being a mother.

The fact that Q is a wise poster, and might be right is something I don't mind conceding when I finish residency. Because there might be validity in it. I like outpatient medicine. And I know I'm just biding my time doing all this inpatient nonsense. However, as long as I make every single non-trad do their due diligence to investigate whether or not PA is a much better route, than I've done what I wanted to do in this: "Is it worth it?" thread. PA school is time saved. $$ saved. Life saved.

 

[QofQuimica]

Thanks for this. I have over a thousand hours of clinical experience and have been so excited about going to med school. The day I got in was one of my happiest moments. But this thread gives me pause. I love medicine and working with patients. I can't imagine doing anything else. I also love my family and spending time with my spouse and we want to have kids. We have a great marriage and I don't want that to get messed up. I'm a very family oriented person and I'd rather have less money if it means getting to spend more time with my family. Even though I have a lot of clinical experience, I know enough to know that I don't really have any idea what med school and eventually being a doctor will truly be like. I can't at this stage.

If you weren't excited and scared at the same time right now, there'd be something wrong with you. What you're feeling is normal. As for balancing life and work, people do it in different ways based on what really matters to them in life. But understand this: if you are going to make your family a priority (and I'm not at all saying you're wrong to do this), then you will not be having a meteoric career as a superstar Nobel prize-winning academic physician. You only get 168 hours in the week. While you're a resident, you'll often spend half of them in the hospital. But when you have the opportunity before residency and afterward, make sure you apportion those hours appropriately based on YOUR priorities. If you're willing to accept less money and prestige in return for more personal time, and especially if you're willing to live well below your means, it is certainly possible to extricate yourself from the hamster wheel after residency.

G flip, it's not that your view is warped, but it IS necessarily biased since your teachers in residency are generally all academic docs. Ivory tower academics is not the end-all, be-all for physicians either. If your program doesn't require a community outpt rotation, consider doing an elective. There are a lot of extra administrative and teaching requirements that come with academic positions that don't exist in community practice. Not to mention that community positions generally pay better for fewer hours at work.

 

[Yadster101]

I'm finishing off MS-1. I'm not sure I have much more steam left to continue. Part of this has to do with our schools brilliant plan to give us 7 exams in 5 days. Part of this has to do with the fact that we continue on to summer school. I've basically been exhausted all year, running on minimal sleep and dealing with high levels of stress/anxiety learning material that bores me to death. But, I realize this is only one year of med school. If I could do it all over again, I'd pick a school with no summer classes. It would give me the chance to re-group. I feel the evil thing about this process is that the further you go, the harder it is to back out. Wait till MS-3 to leave and you kind of need a physician salary to be able to exit medicine. While I expected M1 year to be really hard, I expected it to be interesting. I keep drawing parallels to the life I left behind (the one that paid me 100k+ for less than 40 hrs of work) and my heart is slowly less and less in it, but we shall see.

But, to the OP, I'd really weigh what you are doing now vs. how much a life in medicine means to you. For non-trads, this path is difficult and the one less traveled.

Are you still in med school? Did it get better the farther you went?

 

[Gfliptastic]

This thing is still trucking along?!?

Anyone diligent enough to read all the posts (in particular MINE) can also call this: "Watch the rise-fall-crisis mode-salvation of a med student/MS3 to intern (PGY-1) to jr resident (PGY-2)." I still mostly stand behind every single post I threw into this mix, including my last one. A non-trad pre-med needs to know for DAMN SURE they absolutely-positively MUST be a physician/doctor to be sublimely happy w/ his/her life. Otherwise, seriously, just be a mid-level. I stand behind that still. (APRN. Look that up if you don't even know what that is!)

However, now that the mental/physical utter carnage of intern year is over, it's not horrible. Watching n00b doctors (my own interns) had its own joys/delights and headaches. But as one's (my own) efficiency improves and knowledge base deepens, it's not terrible. What is MORE terrifying is knowing in over a year, I'll be losing my "safety net" of having supervision/an attending to guide me. In 2018, I'm going to be expected to know, more or less, what I'm doing w/ my patients. YIPES.

The one thing I don't think I've emphasized in detail is that you truly have to be passionate about what you do. I was discussing this w/ a batch mate, who was talking about one of her interns because she felt he was too "relaxed", because all he seemed interested in was ending his day. And actually as an intern, I got scolded almost similarly. The general comment is that you don't (more importantly CAN'T) just drop everything because other doctors are leaving the hospital. You aren't building cars, painting houses, cooking food, [insert some other profession where OVERTIME is almost always required to be compensated]. NO, you end your day when your patient care and their management is in order! (I was told/scolded: "You want an easy job where you can anticipate your hours??? Then go work at Walmart!" I remember it, it stuck w/ me)

So there is THAT! Will you stay late, on a salary, because it's what's best for your patients? Sacrificing everything because you care that damn much? Miss things, sometimes important events in your family/spouse/significant other's/friends' life because you don't punch a clock?? You think you want to be a doctor? I say start NOW by making the phone call almost every evening, that I hear every where in the hospital, apologizing to someone because you will be tardy or not even make it. Guess what? Patients don't give a damn about you, your schedule, your family!!!! They are sick or dying. You don't waltz in their rooms and plead/request: "Hey can you make your blood pressure go up on your own? I need to be somewhere in an hour. PRETTY PLEASE!" Hell, go ahead and try!

In fact, it's probably best to never plan anything out. You want to be somewhere at a certain time? Guess what? 9/10 you will be at least 30 mins late. Some of your children's games/recitals/events last 30 mins. Your friend's birthday dinner? You'll be late. Your mom's XXth birthday event? You'll be late. A 7:00 dinner to celebrate your spouse's promotion? You'll be late!

Your job, as a physician, is your life! Deal with it! Everything else? You make it fit. Spouse/significant other. Family. Hobbies. Sanity/your own health. Those ALL have to fit around your job as a doctor! Your job will always supersede your life and others! Until you retire or die!

And THIS is probably the only remaining contribution I have to this topic. If you want a [specific number] hr day, or something with steady schedules? Something w/o daily sacrifices to yourself? Your life? Your special someone? Your family? Your friends? Physician is NOT for you. PERIOD! END OF STORY/DISCUSSION!

 

[McRibs]

Loser pre-med here with .02 cents headed your way.

I've decided that my goals are more important to me than my relationship, but that's a choice everyone has to make for themselves
.

Perhaps its a bit reductionist, but this is really the question.

Unless, of course, you're smart enough to be exceptionally efficient with your time.

Then you can have both.

I am demonstrably not that smart.

 

[mspeedwagon]

You can PM for specifics, but in short I left school not too long after that post and I've never been happier. The work ethic I learned in med school has paid dividends back in the real world allowing me to near double my old income and I'm eternally grateful for the experience and the many friends I made. Ironically, I'm engaged to a physician so I get my fill of medicine living vicariously through her.

Are you still in med school? Did it get better the farther you went?

 

[esob]

I guess maybe my time in the army colors my worldview but honestly even residency sounds better than what I used to do on active duty, which was 90 hrs per week of patient care for less than minimum wage with the constant threat of deployment on 24 hrs notice. With few exceptions, I relished the work day. I guess it depends on how much you like what you're doing and what you've endured in the past.

 

[Blue Spoon]

I guess maybe my time in the army colors my worldview but honestly even residency sounds better than what I used to do on active duty, which was 90 hrs per week of patient care for less than minimum wage with the constant threat of deployment on 24 hrs notice. With few exceptions, I relished the work day. I guess it depends on how much you like what you're doing and what you've endured in the past.

Residency may sound better but I was in the Army 10 years, multiple deployments and I still think residency sucks. I can only speak to surgical sub specialties but don't underestimate the pain of the long grind of residency.

 

[Crayola227]

Residency may sound better but I was in the Army 10 years, multiple deployments and I still think residency sucks. I can only speak to surgical sub specialties but don't underestimate the pain of the long grind of residency.

Yeah, my colleagues that were military thought med school or residency sucked harder. Not sure for each when the greater suck began, but all roads lead to greater suck in medicine as far as I've been told.

 

[esob]

I guess my point was that I didn't every really think it sucked. The hours were long and the pay was terrible and you were at the absolute bottom of the totem poll but most of the time it was pretty interesting. The particular times I thought it sucked were during inadvertent needle sticks and the subsequent GG shots Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that no one wishes residency will last forever but it doesn't seem to make every doc as maladjusted and bitter as some of the posters in this thread are.

 

[QofQuimica]

I guess my point was that I didn't every really think it sucked. The hours were long and the pay was terrible and you were at the absolute bottom of the totem poll but most of the time it was pretty interesting. The particular times I thought it sucked were during inadvertent needle sticks and the subsequent GG shots Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that no one wishes residency will last forever but it doesn't seem to make every doc as maladjusted and bitter as some of the posters in this thread are.

I think a lot of that comes from the feeling of wanting out and being trapped that happens for some people if it turns out that medicine is not such a good fit. Unlike just about any other job you can think of, if you leave your residency without finishing, your MD/DO is basically useless. And (particularly for a trad, but also true for many nontrads who have now been away from their prior careers for half a decade or more), you likely have no other marketable skills that would entice someone to hire you for the six figure salary you now likely need in order to pay back your six figure loans. A person who is financially independent, can use the GI bill, etc, has a lot less to lose than many of your peers do/will if it turns out that medicine isn't right for them after all.

 

[DSM_302.0]

This thread is giving me terrible anxiety as I prepare for interviews at 31 years of age.

 

[njtrimed]

This thread is giving me terrible anxiety as I prepare for interviews at 31 years of age.

If it makes you feel any better, I'm older than you are and I absolutely love medical school, and I have no doubts or regrets. It took me a long time to decide that it was worth the sacrifice before I finally applied, and I went into it with absolutely no illusions or romantic notions about what the profession is today. I think it's absolutely critical to know what you're getting yourself into before making the commitment, but if you do, you shouldn't be disappointed. Good luck on your interviews!