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I've actually never heard of any physician making $50,000 post-taxes.
Is medical school worth it? A physicians perspective.
Started by larryboy
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Just curious as to what your specialty is. 6400-8000/month (eg 20-25% of your loan payment) seems really low, even for some of the lower paying specialties.
I think 160k is a conservative estimate, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics/U.S. Department of Labor, physicians practicing primary care received total median annual compensation of $202,392
Median income for Family practice (without obstetrics) is $189,402
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/physicians-and-surgeons.htm#tab-5
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I am a forensic pathologist.
I think his calculations are actually wrong personally and you'll be making more like 70K post-tax and repayments (depending on where you live maybe more). However, you obviously didn't read my post. If you had a guy with a post tax income of 50K and a guy with a pre-tax income of 50K who both have 3 kids, they both have the SAME FINAL INCOME. Go put the numbers into turbotax for a family making 50K with 3 kids under 17 and tell me I'm wrong. In fact, the family with 50K pre-tax income gets a federal TAX REFUND of $1,236. Even if they get hit with some state taxes they can basically pay it off for the most part with the refund.
This is assuming no mortgage for either of them but that doesn't matter unless you choose to itemize deductions which will make this way more complicated than I'm willing to calculate here.
Those are MGMA numbers. MGMA numbers tend to run pretty high.
That is excellent! However, unfortunately, your response means absolutely nothing in regards to the context of which I was replying...
So, again, I repeat:
Lol at people thinking 25k in coa automatically equates to "living in a mansion and eating lobster and crab every night".
if you are comfortable and don't mind sharing, could you tell us what your net income is after taxes and the $240k loan payments? I will probably end up taking out that much in loans if I don't get into a state school that's why I'm curious. I completely understand if you're not comfortable posting that info though
welp, crossing that one off the list.
Hi swimmer125,
You are right. I'm uncomfortable posting that detail of information. I was even uncomfortable posting the other numbers I did, but I think it's extremely important to get at least some grasp as a premed what you may be paying in the future. To "sort of" answer your question though, if you take my $1600/month loan payment and multiply that by 4, then you are in my ballpark salary AFTER taxes but NOT AFTER loans. As mentioned, it's just a ballpark.
Having said that, I vote for in-state school all the way.
You are right. I'm uncomfortable posting that detail of information. I was even uncomfortable posting the other numbers I did, but I think it's extremely important to get at least some grasp as a premed what you may be paying in the future. To "sort of" answer your question though, if you take my $1600/month loan payment and multiply that by 4, then you are in my ballpark salary AFTER taxes but NOT AFTER loans. As mentioned, it's just a ballpark.
Having said that, I vote for in-state school all the way.
Not really but that's like saying "does any of this matter if I win the lottery?"
I totally understand it's not for everybody. Personally, I get to do "surgery" and have my 40-hour work week. You will come to value your free time as your medical career progresses -- I strongly assure you.
Bro, you keep posting in here like you know you're going to make chump change for a living as doc, being in poverty. In most every thread you're in, you cry and complain about having to volunteer or do anything remotely connected to working in a hospital and with patients. You haven't even applied to medical school yet. You're at a point where you can pretty much do what you want. After all of your complaining and supposed realistic view of the medical profession, why are you still pursuing it? You are seriously on par to be the next Nilf (if you even make it that far) and you don't even know it.
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I'm pretty sure there are more more med students who match rads or ophtho than lottery winners.
I think the days of physicians making big bucks are gone, and it's going to get worse until the market crashes and the economic structure will need reconstruction. I was talking to family friend (a physican) who said his physician relative can't afford to buy a house on her $130K income due to her student loans. Her husband also makes about $60K. It's much better to get a PhD in economics/business/finance these days.
Wow, and the county (or whomever your employer is) doesn't even pick up your professional dues and CME? That's quite unusual, and not in a good way.
Do you have a pension?
I want to be a physician because it's a cool job. In the worst case scenario I look at it like this: if you make smart choices and you hate your job, well, at least you have money.
It's irritating to listen to pre-meds who spout off "I don't care about money." Great. Go ahead and take out $320,000 in loans so you can go to the school that fits you the best and makes you happiest. Go ahead and train to be a primary care physician, too. I can't wait to see the altruism fade away and you're left with absolutely nothing: no desire to help people and because of your poor choices, no money.
You're assuming that you actually like rads or optho, have the step I score/pre-clinical grades/letters of recommendation/connections/etc. to match, and that you actually match.
Most places (public or private) do not cover your professional dues and CME. I've never heard of it. Again, I can only speak for my specialty.
Pension -- Yes. A rather good one.
Loan Forgiveness -- I'm currently in the application process as this is one of the few subspecialties that qualifies. This may be an option for some of you.
Good luck to all of you as you make the decision of medicine as a career. It is rewarding -- however (you know there's always a caveat), you will most likely financially and emotionally put more into it than you will get out of it. This is the common complaint around my medical circle of friends (anesthesia, peds, rads, path). Good luck and good fortune!
Let's say cost is not an issue then can you say it it would be 100% worth it ? Personally I'm in it cause I can't see myself doing anything else but at the same time I have no problem with the tuition.
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My point is, there are ways to avoid the "predicament" outlined in OP. It's not hopeless.
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Let's say cost is not an issue then can you say it it would be 100% worth it ? Personally I'm in it cause I can't see myself doing anything else but at the same time I have no problem with the tuition.
Strong pic brah
Haha I don't even know why that happened
👍 I expect my med school spending to stay in line with my college spending, which is roughly $5-6k a year for an apartment, utilities, gas, and groceries. I could be wrong, but last time I checked I don't spend $20k on vacations over the course of a year.
Where do you live where you can spend $500 a month on rent, utilities, gas, and groceries?
...so you plan on living on ~$5500 (ie, 460/month), all-inclusive, per year, for the majority of your twenties? Do you live with your parents?
I don't see how that budget is possible for an independent person even in the cheapest of regions.
With a budget like that, I'm positive you don't purchase much fruits and vegetables for groceries. Let alone that for $150 in rent your living conditions much be. Well... I'm sorry.
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I'm trying to go to my state school, but it may not be an option for everyone 🙁
And one does not simply get the best board scores possible, otherwise everyone would do Derm or NeuSu.
I would be curious about this as well... I live in a suburban area (<50,000 in my "city") and I pay >$5,000 on rent alone for a 1 bed 1 bath apartment. I find it hard to believe that a grown human's tab for rent+utilities+groceries can be less than 5 grand.
Don't forget gas, man...that was included too.
Oh, one full tank of gas is 50 bucks? No worries that's 1/10 of my life's budget -- for the entire year.
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The money's not for me you derpbag, I could live without much money for a very long time. Its for my family. I want my kids to go to a good school, I want us to go to London for a vacation, I want us to help them go to college, and I want to make sure they don't worry about what to eat. And I can't do that on 50K.
The $50k figure is kind of unrealistic. You'll take home a lot more than $50k if you make good decisions. Go to a cheap medical school, try your hardest to match into a high-paying specialty, run some numbers on IBR repayment vs aggressive repayment after residency, etc.
heres an interesting video of the economics behind becoming a physician
https://www.aamc.org/video/first/mdeconomics.htm
https://www.aamc.org/video/first/mdeconomics.htm
thanks for your responses, as a pre-med it is very helpful to hear all this!
Do you think that it would be worth it for someone to take a gap year or 2 to beef up their application (whether it be taking some post-bacc courses to increase GPA, or doing something impressive like research or more clinical volunteer work) to increase the chance of getting into a state school?
2-year "gap year" solely in aim of getting into a state school?
...Without hard debt numbers available, there is a thing called "opportunity cost" that likely throws a wrench into your, otherwise reasonable, idea...
Aside from wanting to have a break before applying, people take gap years (especially 2 gap years) to get into top schools, not state schools.
This might sound a little dumb, but I estimated that just from the school year (not including summers). I'm not at 100% today haha
I live in a 4br/2.5ba in a Southern college town. I spend about $120/month on groceries and I have a dinner rotation going with my roommates and my gf. When you buy food in bulk, the only things that you buy every week are fresh fruits/veggies and any pantry/frozen items you're running low on. Like I said before, I forgot to extrapolate my expenses for summer costs.
I attended school in the Midwest, in a city with >500,000 people and I'm probably not too far off of this. 5k-7.5k a year I would say for me.
Okay, it's not all gloom and doom.
First off, specialty pay is still extremely lucrative and more than off-sets the student loans you'll take out.
As per Medscape, here are the top earners:
Radiology
Ortho
Cards
Gas
Uro
GI
All of those are over 300k. Yes, they are competitive (although radiology and anesthesiology has been declining over the years). Other reports can peg certain specialties well into the 400k range (MGMA).
Does it make financial sense to go 200k+ into debt and then pursue a career in peds/family medicine/internal medicine (~160k/year, give or take)? Most likely no. But this notion that physicians are doomed to a life of poverty is missing the point. The point isn't that physicians will be poor, it's that primary care physicians are going the way of the dinosaur due to the way reimbursements are paid out.
I actually wasn't responding to your specific post (can't say I read it at all actually), but I think I understand your sentiment. I still believe if you're spending more than 25k per year as a med student, you're doing something wrong.
But really though
But reimbursement for all those fields is expected to decline too. I've heard some people say that no physician will make over 250K/year soon.
I misspoke, "best scores possible for you." But from someone that is actually in medical school...even given a killer Step 1 score, not everyone, not even a majority want to do dermatology or neurosurgery (especially not neurosurgery).
For serious. Full body skin exam? No thanks.
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Interest payments on student loans are tax deductible.
Your numbers are very back of the envelope. I appreciate the gesture, but an argument of worth based solely on financials deserves a much more complex breakdown.
Your numbers are very back of the envelope. I appreciate the gesture, but an argument of worth based solely on financials deserves a much more complex breakdown.
Yeah and limit is 75K filing single or 150K filing jointly so noooope. Not to mention the deduction tops off at $2500 a year...doesn't really make much of a dent anyway.
Agreed!
I live in a great neighborhood in Chicago, about 20 min. train ride from the Northwestern medical campus (which is basically downtown) for $400/month. No car necessary, food+entertainment for me is $300-400/month. I'm not saying it's that cheap for everyone, but it's not that difficult to find reasonable housing in most major cities. Having roommates is important though - 1 bedroom = money drain. As for NY, I thought that most schools in the city have subsidized student housing so you still come in under $1000/month. Don't know about the west coast though, I know it's pretty expensive.
Agree though that costs like health insurance, credit card debt, etc can add up - for most people though, you just need to be careful and live within your means.
I wouldn't count on specialists' pay being that high in the future. By any measure, incomes for specialists, while still ok, have been dropping since the 1990s in real dollars while costs have been escalating.
Now more than ever, money is becoming a poor reason to pursue medicine, and I think time will make that conclusion even stronger and apparent. I have a 40% partial scholarship, and I have decided to live cheap, marry a working wife, and try to pay down the debt as fast as possible.
Thank God I don't have prior student debt as opposed to some of my classmates with $50K-$100K in loans already. This whole system is unsustainable, and one day it will come crashing unless we reconstruct our financial programs.
Now more than ever, money is becoming a poor reason to pursue medicine, and I think time will make that conclusion even stronger and apparent. I have a 40% partial scholarship, and I have decided to live cheap, marry a working wife, and try to pay down the debt as fast as possible.
Thank God I don't have prior student debt as opposed to some of my classmates with $50K-$100K in loans already. This whole system is unsustainable, and one day it will come crashing unless we reconstruct our financial programs.
