Is medical school worth it? A physicians perspective.

[lobo.solo]

Thanks Op for the post, I think this is something to think about very seriously. Although I think I feel that some of us premeds are too enamored with medicine. Leaving cheaply will come in handy for me when I get there.

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[Gut Shot]

There seems to be a lot of skepticism with the IBR + PSLF lasting.

IBR is a very useful carrot, and student debt is becoming politically toxic. There are always the pessimistic and paranoid, and sometimes they are quite vocal, but should you live your life based on some action a future Congress is unlikely to take? Theoretically they could require Medicare to pay me in Trident Layers, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over the possibility.

 

[occams_razor]

A forced gap year would stop that. Let some of these pre-meds go into repayment on their undergrad loans and they will start shopping for schools like rational consumers.

I have roughly 27k in debt from undergrad (and I went to a state school) and I'm in repayment right now, paying it off myself with no help from parents. I'm still pursuing medicine though and even if I don't get into a state school, I will still go to a private school despite the added debt burden. I know I won't be happy doing anything other than medicine. I've met unhappy doctors but also many unhappy people in pretty much any profession you can think of

 

[larryboy]

A few comments.

My math is ballpark - I didn't hire an accountant to crunch the numbers.

Your tax rate will be 28%, not 30%. Thank you for pointing that out, but the overall picture is still the same.

Don't fool yourselves. 250K is a very average debt load. Don't underestimate how much it really costs.

I didn't say the current scenario is financial suicide - I'm implying that if reimbursement continues to drop and med school costs continue to rise (both are the current trend) - the time will come when it will be financial suicide.

For those of you who claim to not care about money - how about you put your money where your mouth is and send me all of your net profit when you're out in practice. I bet I won't get a dollar from any of you.

I'm not posting this because I'm jaded, overworked, or out of touch. On the contrary - I love my job, don't feel overworked, and and very in touch.

My point is to help you get to where you want to be and not end up in the same financial mess that many of my colleagues are in.

This is not theoretical mumbo jumbo. I speak from experience and from the experience of many of my colleagues. If you think it's way out of touch with reality then are going to be very disappointed when it becomes your reality.

I encourage you to all follow your dreams - just remember that sometimes it comes at a very steep price!

Be smart with your money and try to avoid as much debt as possible!

Cheers,

larryboy

medicalcraponomics.blogspot.com

 

[Hemorrage]

Not if your parents covered everything for you.

i don't think many parents will do that

 

[annonymous819]

I have roughly 27k in debt from undergrad (and I went to a state school) and I'm in repayment right now, paying it off myself with no help from parents. I'm still pursuing medicine though and even if I don't get into a state school, I will still go to a private school despite the added debt burden. I know I won't be happy doing anything other than medicine. I've met unhappy doctors but also many unhappy people in pretty much any profession you can think of

I have 30k and im paying it off myself as well. Helping people will be far more rewarding when I didnt mortgage my families future to do it.

Dont fool yourself, the first step is to get in somewhere. After that, finances should play a substantial role in your decision between schools.

Dont buy a Porsche when a Honda will do...

 

[flodhi1]

Are you eating lobster and crab every night living in a mansion? Anyone taking out 100k in loans to live on for 4 yrs ought to be slapped. This is where your entire post fails.

Some cities have extremely expensive housing which can easily be $1200-1500 a month. I'm sorry to let you know not everyone lives in Alabama where you can get a single bedroom apartment for 600 bucks. You also have to pay for car insurance, car payments, food, health insurance, credit card bills you previously had, maintenance of property and vehicles, laundry, GAS!!!! and the bills keep going on..... Putting all of that together you could easily spend $2200 a month without a problem. You really need to get a reality check before you make ridiculous comments.

 

[iqe2010]

4k a MONTH in student loans?

Did I read that right?

 

[flodhi1]

If you're paying $1400 a month in the big city for an apartment, you probably don't need a car for the first couple years at least (you're in a city, public transportation tends to be decent). If you're paying $1400 a month for an apartment and going to VCU...well unless you have a family I don't know what to say about that. I'll just say that most of the people I know living in Chicago pay less than that.

I don't want to disclose my family situation but I am a non-traditional so I have a lot of baggage of my own. Also a single decent apartment in Richmond can easily run 900-1000 bucks. I lived in NY and parts of California where a single bedroom apartment for 1400 bucks is nothing but average. Regardless for the last poster to automatically assume that spending 25k a year is lobster dinner and a luxurious life is just

 

[def1]

Considering how poor I am now lol, Im not worried about a doctor's salary, even if its only around 50k net until loans are paid off. 50k is like upper middle class and more than my family members makes right now. If you live frugally for a short amount of time, you can also have that debt paid off quickly, and rake in your true salary.

Also I live in Texas so if I get accepted here, tuition is like 15,000 k a year so that should really help as well *crosses fingers*

 

[ShenanigansMD]

I'm only worried because at some point a family is gonna cost a lot of money. I can't be a bachelor forever... sigh.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

I don't want to disclose my family situation but I am a non-traditional so I have a lot of baggage of my own. Also a single decent apartment in Richmond can easily run 900-1000 bucks. I lived in NY and parts of California where a single bedroom apartment for 1400 bucks is nothing but average. Regardless for the last poster to automatically assume that spending 25k a year is lobster dinner and a luxurious life is just

Oh yeah of course. I also always need to have the disclaimer that my advice only holds true for a single early 20s guy who came straight out of college. Many people have very different situations that could easily burn through 20K or even 25K.

 

[jl lin]

And the financial burden/realities is why people won't go into primary care, like FM, and why DNPs, etc will take over this area.

I'm not for it, but it seems like the practical reality, all things considered. Hope to God that I am wrong, but given the numbers and politically-based changes, this seems more than possible.

 

[Hemorrage]

And the financial burden/realities is why people won't go into primary care, like FM, and why DNPs, etc will take over this area.

I'm not for it, but it seems like the practical reality, all things considered. Hope to God that I am wrong, but given the numbers and politically-based changes, this seems more than possible.

exactly. Every time i go to my PCP i end up seeing an NP or a PA anyway. In the next 10 years its highly likely that primary care will be dominated by NP's PA's and DNP's while most MD's and DO's will steer clear away from that. I know i will.

 

[occams_razor]

A few comments.

My math is ballpark - I didn't hire an accountant to crunch the numbers.

Your tax rate will be 28%, not 30%. Thank you for pointing that out, but the overall picture is still the same.

Don't fool yourselves. 250K is a very average debt load. Don't underestimate how much it really costs.

I didn't say the current scenario is financial suicide - I'm implying that if reimbursement continues to drop and med school costs continue to rise (both are the current trend) - the time will come when it will be financial suicide.

For those of you who claim to not care about money - how about you put your money where your mouth is and send me all of your net profit when you're out in practice. I bet I won't get a dollar from any of you.

I'm not posting this because I'm jaded, overworked, or out of touch. On the contrary - I love my job, don't feel overworked, and and very in touch.

My point is to help you get to where you want to be and not end up in the same financial mess that many of my colleagues are in.

This is not theoretical mumbo jumbo. I speak from experience and from the experience of many of my colleagues. If you think it's way out of touch with reality then are going to be very disappointed when it becomes your reality.

I encourage you to all follow your dreams - just remember that sometimes it comes at a very steep price!

Be smart with your money and try to avoid as much debt as possible!

Cheers,

larryboy

medicalcraponomics.blogspot.com

"My point is to help you get to where you want to be and not end up in the same financial mess that many of my colleagues are in"

- what advice would you give to those of us who have undergrad debt and will be paying for med school entirely with loans? particularly if we don't get into a state school, what would you advise?

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Oh no, god forbid you have to live off of $50,000 post-tax, post-loan debt! Why, that's as much as the average FAMILY makes PRE-TAX, how horrific! And to think that's your starting income too! Why, $50,000 of post-tax, post-loan debt money would barely be enough to buy a three story house in a nice suburb, send your kids to private school, and still have money left over for things like HDTVs, iPads, and vacations. And to think the only compensation you get for such a lifestyle is that you get to work your dream job; what must thou have done to antagonize fate?!

As a guy planning on going into academic research which promises a lucrative $60k-$80k pre-tax income for most of my career (assuming I can keep funding my own salary), you have my full sympathies. Truly, physicians are the paupers of our society.

Some cities have extremely expensive housing which can easily be $1200-1500 a month. I'm sorry to let you know not everyone lives in Alabama where you can get a single bedroom apartment for 600 bucks. You also have to pay for car insurance, car payments, food, health insurance, credit card bills you previously had, maintenance of property and vehicles, laundry, GAS!!!! and the bills keep going on..... Putting all of that together you could easily spend $2200 a month without a problem. You really need to get a reality check before you make ridiculous comments.

And this why people should take cost of living into consideration of where they attend. For example, San Francisco is my favorite city in the world and I have family who lives there, but I'd still be very wary of applying to UCSF simply because of the outrageous housing prices there (although I believe UCSF does have student housing which would, I hope, make it possible to live there without paying $2000/month just on rent). On the opposite end of the spectrum you have a school like Emory where housing prices are dirt cheap, especially if you don't mind making a longer commute.

Also, if you live in a city with housing prices of $1500+ for a single bedroom apartment, chances are that city is pretty dense. If that's the case, you can live without a car, and you'll probably want to anyway even if money isn't a concern. So that cuts your gas, car payments, and insurance costs out of your living expenses which will help to compensate for the higher rent.

All that said, having to take out $25k a year to live off of is still pretty reasonable unless you don't mind living in a ghetto apartment, driving a 1985 civic, and subsisting off of ramen during the entire time you're in med school.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Oh no, god forbid you have to live off of $50,000 post-tax, post-loan debt! Why, that's as much as the average FAMILY makes PRE-TAX, how horrific! And to think that's your starting income too! Why, $50,000 of post-tax, post-loan debt money would barely be enough to buy a three story house in a nice suburb, send your kids to private school, and still have money left over for things like HDTVs, iPads, and vacations. And to think the only compensation you get for such a lifestyle is that you get to work your dream job; what must thou have done to antagonize fate?!

As a guy planning on going into academic research which promises a lucrative $60k-$80k pre-tax income for most of my career (assuming I can keep funding my own salary), you have my full sympathies. Truly, physicians are the paupers of our society.

You trollin bro? How many kids do you have in this situation, one? You're not sending 2-3 kids to private school with 50K a year, unless you have no idea how much private school costs these days. It's easily almost 10K per kid. You also aren't taking many vacations for 50K a year with a few kids.

The average family pre-tax making 50K is also going to be eligible for a number of tax breaks that you won't get being in the 150K tax bracket. They also aren't getting hit with AMT. So, in the end, the ending numbers won't be too far off.

 

[HughMyron]

Oh no, god forbid you have to live off of $50,000 post-tax, post-loan debt! Why, that's as much as the average FAMILY makes PRE-TAX, how horrific! And to think that's your starting income too! Why, $50,000 of post-tax, post-loan debt money would barely be enough to buy a three story house in a nice suburb, send your kids to private school, and still have money left over for things like HDTVs, iPads, and vacations. And to think the only compensation you get for such a lifestyle is that you get to work your dream job; what must thou have done to antagonize fate?!

As a guy planning on going into academic research which promises a lucrative $60k-$80k pre-tax income for most of my career (assuming I can keep funding my own salary), you have my full sympathies. Truly, physicians are the paupers of our society.

You won't be able to afford any of that stuff on 50K. You'll send your kids to an inner city public school, your vacations will be camping trips on the beach, and your kids will struggle to go to college, that's assuming college itself isn't ridiculously cost-prohibitive by then.

And we all know Ph.Ds have it rough in today's world. That doesn't mean that MDs don't. I don't think anyone would be satisfied with making 50K as a 35 year old. To most people, that is the definition of a failed career. Especially for someone intelligent enough to become an MD in the first place.

Why not just become a plumber?

 

[Hemorrage]

Oh no, god forbid you have to live off of $50,000 post-tax, post-loan debt! Why, that's as much as the average FAMILY makes PRE-TAX, how horrific! And to think that's your starting income too! Why, $50,000 of post-tax, post-loan debt money would barely be enough to buy a three story house in a nice suburb, send your kids to private school, and still have money left over for things like HDTVs, iPads, and vacations. And to think the only compensation you get for such a lifestyle is that you get to work your dream job; what must thou have done to antagonize fate?!

As a guy planning on going into academic research which promises a lucrative $60k-$80k pre-tax income for most of my career (assuming I can keep funding my own salary), you have my full sympathies. Truly, physicians are the paupers of our society.



And this why people should take cost of living into consideration of where they attend. For example, San Francisco is my favorite city in the world and I have family who lives there, but I'd still be very wary of applying to UCSF simply because of the outrageous housing prices there (although I believe UCSF does have student housing which would, I hope, make it possible to live there without paying $2000/month just on rent). On the opposite end of the spectrum you have a school like Emory where housing prices are dirt cheap, especially if you don't mind making a longer commute.

Also, if you live in a city with housing prices of $1500+ for a single bedroom apartment, chances are that city is pretty dense. If that's the case, you can live without a car, and you'll probably want to anyway even if money isn't a concern. So that cuts your gas, car payments, and insurance costs out of your living expenses which will help to compensate for the higher rent.

All that said, having to take out $25k a year to live off of is still pretty reasonable unless you don't mind living in a ghetto apartment, driving a 1985 civic, and subsisting off of ramen during the entire time you're in med school.

I'm not sure what planet your from but $50k a year post-tax is NOTHING. After you pay your mortgage, student loan payment, car payment and so forth how much will you have left over per month? Nothing. How are you going to save for your kid(s) college fees? Tuition is set to double in the next 20 years so expect to pay close to $300k for a full 4 years at a private university (if thats where they want to go) else you're still looking at $150k for a state school. Is this what you want for your kids? What about yourself? If you wanted to sit around and make 50k you might as well have gone straight into the workforce after college... i'm sure novartis pays their research and sales teams more than 50k a year.

 

[Fivo]

A few comments....

blah blah blah blah blah

Cheers,

larryboy

medicalcraponomics.blogspot.com

Ahh there it is, another self promotion of your blog. I think that's the reason everyone called you a troll/spammer when you first started posting here. It's as if having your blog in your sig isn't enough

 

[911 Turbo]

A 50k/yr salary takes home about $3000/month assuming they have zero debt. A $4250/month salary after taxes is like someone who makes ~75k/yr with zero debt. This is a pretty big difference.

You won't be living a "doctor's lifestyle" while paying off debt but it is a good middle class living in many parts of the country.

People might actually have to go into medicine simply because they like it.

I could care less about the money. To me, it's just going to be rewarding for me to have fun helping people and apply the knowledge of medicine in a clinical setting, as well as problem solving on a daily basis.

lol

 

[mehc012]

I'm not sure what planet your from but $50k a year post-tax is NOTHING.

Wow, it sure must be nice to be able to say that.

 

[PreMedOrDead]

Wow, it sure must be nice to be able to say that.

He's actually quite right.

With a professional degree that is 11 years [minimum] in the making post-HS Diploma, or 7 years post-Bachelor's, making only $50,000 post-taxes puts you far behind even the most moderately successful of those employed. Now when you're thinking about the capabilities of those going into medicine, usually those people whom are most devoted, intelligent, and independent, making a salary like that is pretty dismal.

While I'm getting acceptances to medical schools and sealing my fate to hundreds of thousands of more dollars in debt, I have two friends who have already locked in $75,000 pre-tax jobs in a locale that mansions sell in just the $300-500k range. If they were to relocate to New York, they'd likely be making $130-150k starting salary with just a bachelor's. Being in business, and with the more experience they get over the next few years, they will likely be making salaries in specialty range by the time I get out of my residency, yet they will be debt-free and have hundreds of thousands of dollars locked away in savings accruing interest.

 

[mehc012]

He's actually quite right.

With a professional degree that is 11 years [minimum] in the making post-HS Diploma, or 7 years post-Bachelor's, making only $50,000 post-taxes puts you far behind even the most moderately successful of those employed. Now when you're thinking about the capabilities of those going into medicine, usually those people whom are most devoted, intelligent, and independent, making a salary like that is pretty dismal.

While I'm getting acceptances to medical schools and sealing my fate to hundreds of thousands of more dollars in debt, I have two friends who have already locked in $75,000 pre-tax jobs in a locale that mansions sell in just the $300-500k range. If they were to relocate to New York, they'd likely be making $130-150k starting salary with just a bachelor's. Being in business, and with the more experience they get over the next few years, they will likely be making salaries in specialty range by the time I get out of my residency, yet they will be debt-free and have hundreds of thousands of dollars locked away in savings accruing interest.

Hey, all I'm saying is there's a world of difference between "lower than the richest professions" and "OMG how can you live on that salary?"

$50k post-tax is far from NOTHING. It's not rich, but it's closer to that end of the scale than the other.

That being said, this is far from the point of this thread, and I'm sorry for interrupting like that. I just found the phrasing and vehemence of Hem's statement amusing.

 

[HughMyron]

Wow, it sure must be nice to be able to say that.

Yeah yeah we get it, you're from a poor family. Must be nice getting thousands in federal grants and subsidized loans while we get nothing.

 

[mehc012]

Yeah yeah we get it, you're from a poor family. Must be nice getting thousands in federal grants and subsidized loans while we get nothing.

Yeah, I'm not poor...and I've never taken a subsidized loan or any federal grants other than Pell (~$5k/yr aka not enough to cover college).

I don't need to be poor to know that $50k isn't. And so what if I were? What does that have to do with anything?

Anyway, as I said, I shouldn't have derailed this thread...if you want to start a discussion about how lucky poor people are to be poor, and how wonderful the handouts are, that's for another thread, and good luck with that.

 

[blackandtan]

So the original question was "Is medical School Worth it?" Granted, I skimmed most of the comments, but a recurrent theme was the financial cost/benefit analysis.

I went to medical school. I've done two residencies (family medicine and internal medicine). I'm working as a hospitalist for a year, and will be doing a fellowship in PCCM. I am in debt.

I am Happy.

It took me a while to find my niche in medicine, and find what would fullfill me, but now that I have, all the dollar signs in the world couldn't make me go back.

So whoever said "maybe people will just have to go into it because they like it" is wise beyond their years. You will make money, no matter what you end up doing (at this point, you've proven you're smart enough to do that), the question is: Will you be happy?

Sometimes you don't know until you try it. You can always do something else.

(cue the Hippy comments)

 

[HughMyron]

Yeah, I'm not poor...and I've never taken a subsidized loan or any federal grants other than Pell (~$5k/yr aka not enough to cover college).

I don't need to be poor to know that $50k isn't. And so what if I were? What does that have to do with anything?

Anyway, as I said, I shouldn't have derailed this thread...if you want to start a discussion about how lucky poor people are to be poor, and how wonderful the handouts are, that's for another thread, and good luck with that.

But the point is that nobody puts themselves through 11+ years of post-HS work just to make 50K. That's what you call a failed career.

Just think of the opportunity cost. You could have actually made something of yourself in finance or engineering.

If I perform so poorly on the STEP1 that I'm forced into FP or a low reimbursing field I'll definitely commit suicide. I mean, 30 years ago I wouldn't have, I would have been happy with whatever field I got. But the game's done changed. What u gonna do.

 

[RomanTaylor]

But the point is that nobody puts themselves through 11+ years of post-HS work just to make 50K. That's what you call a failed career.

Just think of the opportunity cost. You could have actually made something of yourself in finance or engineering.

If I perform so poorly on the STEP1 that I'm forced into FP or a low reimbursing field I'll definitely commit suicide. I mean, 30 years ago I wouldn't have, I would have been happy with whatever field I got. But the game's done changed. What u gonna do.

Zomg, chillax, bro!

 

[mehc012]

But the point is that nobody puts themselves through 11+ years of post-HS work just to make 50K. That's what you call a failed career.

Just think of the opportunity cost. You could have actually made something of yourself in finance or engineering.

If I perform so poorly on the STEP1 that I'm forced into FP or a low reimbursing field I'll definitely commit suicide. I mean, 30 years ago I wouldn't have, I would have been happy with whatever field I got. But the game's done changed. What u gonna do.

Hey, all I'm saying is there's a world of difference between "lower than the richest professions" and "OMG how can you live on that salary?"

$50k post-tax is far from NOTHING. It's not rich, but it's closer to that end of the scale than the other.

That being said, this is far from the point of this thread, and I'm sorry for interrupting like that. I just found the phrasing and vehemence of Hem's statement amusing.

Sorry to argue by quoting myself, but I do understand that, and I've said as much already. I was responding to a specific statement that was hilariously exaggerated.

I don't have a whole ton to add to the real debate here; I've lived with a whole spectrum of income levels, from food stamps to upper middle class, many of my college friends were just disgustingly loaded, and I'm pretty comfortable with letting salary concerns take a back seat.

More money is better than less money, but as long as I don't end up with NO money, I'll be fine. Different people are comfortable with different levels I'm not gonna try to convince you that $50k take-home would be enough for you.

 

[Gut Shot]

A few comments.

My math is ballpark - I didn't hire an accountant to crunch the numbers.

You don't need an accountant. All you need is Paycheck City.

Your tax rate will be 28%, not 30%. Thank you for pointing that out, but the overall picture is still the same.

It's actually ~27.5%, which leaves a single person with 116K after federal/payroll taxes, not the 100K you had previously stated. That is assuming zero deductions. Forgive me, but an error of $1,333/month in post-tax income is not insignificant in these calculations.

Also, 160K may be a good estimate of the staring salary, but most physicians see their incomes creep up significantly after 3-5 years of practice. You should take that into account.

And don't forget the long-term effects of inflation.

 

[dextor2003]

Sorry to argue by quoting myself, but I do understand that, and I've said as much already. I was responding to a specific statement that was hilariously exaggerated.

I don't have a whole ton to add to the real debate here; I've lived with a whole spectrum of income levels, from food stamps to upper middle class, many of my college friends were just disgustingly loaded, and I'm pretty comfortable with letting salary concerns take a back seat.

More money is better than less money, but as long as I don't end up with NO money, I'll be fine. Different people are comfortable with different levels I'm not gonna try to convince you that $50k take-home would be enough for you.

Perhaps the wisest thing I've read in this entire thread. My parents have never made much their entire lives. A meager living (not necessarily poverty) is something I've just grown up with, literally. Have I loved it? No. But it's shown me the value of the dollar and help keep my priorities straight. And I can easily say--right now at least--that even $50k/year coming out of residency (post student loan payments) is a hell of a lot better than what we have now, especially since that 50 grand would be MY OWN income, and not the family cumulative. Does everyone feel the same way? Of course not. Different life experiences will shape what we believe. I just think it's something we should keep in mind instead of just flat out saying a $50k/year income will eventually shatter people's dreams, "altruism," etc. that they had about the physician life. It all depends on what you perceive of that reality in the first place..

 

[mimelim]

A few comments.

My math is ballpark - I didn't hire an accountant to crunch the numbers.

Your tax rate will be 28%, not 30%. Thank you for pointing that out, but the overall picture is still the same.

Don't fool yourselves. 250K is a very average debt load. Don't underestimate how much it really costs.

I didn't say the current scenario is financial suicide - I'm implying that if reimbursement continues to drop and med school costs continue to rise (both are the current trend) - the time will come when it will be financial suicide.

For those of you who claim to not care about money - how about you put your money where your mouth is and send me all of your net profit when you're out in practice. I bet I won't get a dollar from any of you.

I'm not posting this because I'm jaded, overworked, or out of touch. On the contrary - I love my job, don't feel overworked, and and very in touch.

My point is to help you get to where you want to be and not end up in the same financial mess that many of my colleagues are in.

This is not theoretical mumbo jumbo. I speak from experience and from the experience of many of my colleagues. If you think it's way out of touch with reality then are going to be very disappointed when it becomes your reality.

I encourage you to all follow your dreams - just remember that sometimes it comes at a very steep price!

Be smart with your money and try to avoid as much debt as possible!

Cheers,

larryboy

medicalcraponomics.blogspot.com

What exactly is 'very average'? How does this differ from 'average'? Average debt according to AAMC is 156k. Average debt according to AMA is 146k. Can you please source your numbers? It is one thing to ballpark things and use gorrilla math, but when your numbers are off from most of the published data, I think sourcing is probably a good idea. Of my intern class (10 interns) the highest debt was 210k. Given that there are a good number of people that have zero debt or ~100k, I'm wondering where all these people with 300k+ debt are coming from.

As a complete aside, you do know that you are allowed to write in paragraphs on here right?

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

You trollin bro? How many kids do you have in this situation, one? You're not sending 2-3 kids to private school with 50K a year, unless you have no idea how much private school costs these days. It's easily almost 10K per kid. You also aren't taking many vacations for 50K a year with a few kids.

The average family pre-tax making 50K is also going to be eligible for a number of tax breaks that you won't get being in the 150K tax bracket. They also aren't getting hit with AMT. So, in the end, the ending numbers won't be too far off.

You won't be able to afford any of that stuff on 50K. You'll send your kids to an inner city public school, your vacations will be camping trips on the beach, and your kids will struggle to go to college, that's assuming college itself isn't ridiculously cost-prohibitive by then.

And we all know Ph.Ds have it rough in today's world. That doesn't mean that MDs don't. I don't think anyone would be satisfied with making 50K as a 35 year old. To most people, that is the definition of a failed career. Especially for someone intelligent enough to become an MD in the first place.

Why not just become a plumber?

I'm not sure what planet your from but $50k a year post-tax is NOTHING. After you pay your mortgage, student loan payment, car payment and so forth how much will you have left over per month? Nothing. How are you going to save for your kid(s) college fees? Tuition is set to double in the next 20 years so expect to pay close to $300k for a full 4 years at a private university (if thats where they want to go) else you're still looking at $150k for a state school. Is this what you want for your kids? What about yourself? If you wanted to sit around and make 50k you might as well have gone straight into the workforce after college... i'm sure novartis pays their research and sales teams more than 50k a year.

You guys fail at reading comprehension. Go back and read OP's post (or even mine). OP's calculations of $50,000/year to live off of already took out the money for loan payments and taxes (both federal and state). So, no, that $50,000 is not the same as the family earning $50,000 pre-tax. It is, in fact, $50,000 of net income. Yes, there will be costs for car payments, mortgage, etc. but you have control over that and thus those things can be as expensive or cheap as you make them. As for college, there are scholarships and state schools for a reason.

I also find it funny how out of touch you guys are in regards to income. $50,000/year of post-tax, post-loan payment income is nothing to sneeze at. I grew up in a family (2 kids) making $50,000 per year pre-tax and we could still afford a nice three story house in the suburbs, electronic gadgets, vacations, and private school (hey wait a sec, isn't that the description I gave earlier? Oh gee what a coincidence!) The same was true for virtually everyone else I knew (actually, no it wasn't; most people I knew at school made due with a lot less and were hardly poor). If you think you need a six figure income just to have a decent lifestyle then you're really out of touch.

Now obviously if you live in a city like NYC then $50,000k/year to live off of won't cut it, but if you made the decision to go live in a big city in such a situation then you're either an idiot or someone who cares more about some greater purpose (ex: caring for underserved inner city populations) than money.

I'd also like to point out that this thread is only about PCPs. As we all know, PCP is one of the lowest paid specialties. If you're going into PCP for the money, well...yeah...

 

[Frazier]

What exactly is 'very average'? How does this differ from 'average'? Average debt according to AAMC is 156k. Average debt according to AMA is 146k. Can you please source your numbers? It is one thing to ballpark things and use gorrilla math, but when your numbers are off from most of the published data, I think sourcing is probably a good idea. Of my intern class (10 interns) the highest debt was 210k. Given that there are a good number of people that have zero debt or ~100k, I'm wondering where all these people with 300k+ debt are coming from.

As a complete aside, you do know that you are allowed to write in paragraphs on here right?

Not speaking for op, but, for other readers, remember this figure is going to balloon by default for us going forward [as everyone prior to very recent entering classes saved thousands with loans being subsidized].

 

[unhistoried]

Not speaking for op, but, for other readers, remember this figure is going to balloon by default for us going forward [as everyone prior to very recent entering classes saved thousands with loans being subsidized].

True, and I don't think enough students entering medical school understand how quickly $40,000 becomes $100,000. I've calculated what my debt would be at a couple different schools if I used Stafford (just Unsubsidized, as you've mentioned) and Grad PLUS loans to pay for the entire cost of attendance. After a five year residency, here are some rough figures:

A school with ~$43,000/year COA (tuition <$20,000/year) = $250,000 @ 6.8%
A school with ~$80,000/year COA (tuition ~$50,000/year) = >$500,000 @ 7.3%

 

[Girly X]

not speaking for op, but, for other readers, remember this figure is going to balloon by default for us going forward [as everyone prior to very recent entering classes saved thousands with loans being subsidized].

qft

 

[imymemine]

Wife working+Texas tuition

That's bi-winning

+ work for a few years before going to med school, save up that $200-300k

That's tri-winning.

 

[Girly X]

+ work for a few years before going to med school, save up that $200-300k

That's tri-winning.

nm.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I'm not sure what planet your from but $50k a year post-tax is NOTHING.

Hmm...it is the equivalent of a $70,000 a year job (pre-taxes). I hardly consider that NOTHING. I think 99% of people on "planet" Earth would be happy with that. Is it what everyone hopes for after all the hard work required becoming a physician? No. There are a few things you can do to make sure these (overly pessimistic IMO) numbers don't become a reality.

1. Go to your state school. MD=MD=MD. For most people this is the cheapest option and your education will be widely the same as the expensive private schools.

2. Work your butt off to get best board scores and clinical grades possible, and then best residency possible. However pick the specialty where you could be happy making sub-6-figures (gross). I would rather be a happy PC doc than an unhappy, more compensated specialist.

3. Live like a pauper during medical school, residency, and as a young doctor. There is no reason to buy a house or a new car as soon as you get your first pay-check. Live the same life-style you did as a student for a couple more years and devote more/most of your money to loan repayments.

I think a lot of people expect being a doctor to suddenly open up a plethora of riches along with a feeling of importance/meaning to life. It is a great field and I love what I went into. But I am realistic that medicine is a job (and a high calling IMO but nevertheless still a job). I would say that most Americans feel they should be paid more for their work. However, if you want to get compensated you have to hustle.

 

[Nuel]

Tuition is set to double in the next 20 years so expect to pay close to $300k for a full 4 years at a private university (if thats where they want to go) else you're still looking at $150k for a state school.

And this is why the student loan bubble will come crashing down, sending us into another recession. Universities will be forced to decrease tuition or increase scholarships/loan-free aid. The market will correct itself

 

[circulus vitios]

Honestly if you live wisely you could put a dent(40k-80k) in your student loans by the time you complete residency. And if you can resist Balling out for about 2 years making and saving most of that 110k after taxes and just live like a high school teacher (or 47%of the population), you could pay off all of those evil loans 2 years out of residency. Wow imagine that

This works if your loans are below 240k like majority of medical students, and if you can manage to live like us pre meds are living right now.

Grad PLUS loans are 7.9%. I'm not sure where the original poster got 6.8%. Assuming a $200k debt, that's $1300/month in interest-only payments. As a resident you'll be pulling down maybe $55k/month, or somewhere around $3200 a month after taxes.

 

[circulus vitios]

Perhaps the wisest thing I've read in this entire thread. My parents have never made much their entire lives. A meager living (not necessarily poverty) is something I've just grown up with, literally. Have I loved it? No. But it's shown me the value of the dollar and help keep my priorities straight. And I can easily say--right now at least--that even $50k/year coming out of residency (post student loan payments) is a hell of a lot better than what we have now, especially since that 50 grand would be MY OWN income, and not the family cumulative. Does everyone feel the same way? Of course not. Different life experiences will shape what we believe. I just think it's something we should keep in mind instead of just flat out saying a $50k/year income will eventually shatter people's dreams, "altruism," etc. that they had about the physician life. It all depends on what you perceive of that reality in the first place..

It's not just $50k/year. It's $50k/year after 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, 3+ years of intense training....in addition to being legally liable for your work, a lifetime of continuing education, and the stress and pressure inherent to a career in medicine. And knowing that even if you want to quit, you can't because your quarter million dollars in loans cannot be discharged.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Remember, 6.8% is only a ballpark figure. You can take out 15-20k a year in GradPLUS, which is 7.9% interest. If you are taking out the full COA, you will have to use GradPLUS every year. Your final year may be financed purely by GradPLUS loans, since unsubsidized Staffords have a 185k limit and counts against your undergraduate loans.

 

[notbobtrustme]

Grad PLUS loans are 7.9%. I'm not sure where the original poster got 6.8%. Assuming a $200k debt, that's $1300/month in interest-only payments. As a resident you'll be pulling down maybe $55k/month, or somewhere around $3200 a month after taxes.

yea, you gotta moonlight, there is no way around it. If you don't want that debt to balloon out of control, you need to pay down 25-35k/year which requires moonlighting gigs.

 

[annonymous819]

I'm not sure what planet your from but $50k a year post-tax is NOTHING... Tuition is set to double in the next 20 years .

My wife works for T Rowe price. She constantly has people calling in to set up 529's for their kids asking "how much should I save for my kid to go to college in 20 years."

Welp, T Rowe projections have college costing >500k (tuition+living) for 4 years by then. To bad your 529 is capped at around 300ish (state dependent).

edit: lest anyone want to spill the haterade, I love medicine. I will love it even more when I, through smart financial planning, escape medical school with next to no debt.

 

[circulus vitios]

My wife works for T Rowe price. She constantly has people calling in to set up 529's for their kids asking "how much should I save for my kid to go to college in 20 years."

Welp, T Rowe projections have college costing >500k (tuition+living) for 4 years by then. To bad your 529 is capped at around 300ish (state dependent).

edit: lest anyone want to spill the haterade, I love medicine. I will love it even more when I, through smart financial planning, escape medical school with next to no debt.

When will it end?

 

[annonymous819]

When will it end?

It probably will not get that far...but it is concerning when even the financial firms are banking on serious tuition increases

 

[Geebeejay]

Lol at people thinking 25k coa automatically equates to "living in a mansion eating lobster and crab every night"...

I live in Boston, eat out almost once a day, and I don't spend 25k per year. This number is HUGE, and would reflect irresponsible spending.

 

[Dawn1980]

Just wanted to add that larryboy's assessment is pretty darn spot on. At least, his original post was exactly what I've encountered with my finances as a new attending.

Larryboy was being very generous when he dished out a starting salary of $160,000. I have friends in Pediatrics, for example, who started off $90,000 to $120,000. Ouch. Please keep this in mind. Some RARE individuals in Family Practice had starting salaries in the $240,00 range -- they were in unattractive, rural areas though, but if this is for you, then there you go. I would have probably done this had I gone into primary care.

As far as loans, just to give some perspective, I had no undergrad loans (full scholarship), but I accrued $240,000 in med loans (Subsidized, Unsubsidized, and Perkins). I currently pay $1600/month in loans. It's approximately 25% of my paycheck. It's tough. I'm still living rather inexpensively similar to med school (i.e. not using A/C or heat that much, bicycling to and from work). It does help to live less-than-modestly, yet there are just other little things here and there that you don't think about that cut into your income. For example, I got a $404 bill this morning for professional membership in an organization and a $200 invoice for another organization (yes, these are essentially required in my field or I wouldn't do it). Another example, I was required to take 3 board exams to practice ($1800 each, plus traveling expenses because board certification in my specialty only occurs in FL so you must travel there). Oh, I also need to pay for my 35 annual CME credits that are required to hold onto my board certifications. I also have to budget for furlough days (yes, you read it right), so I'm not really making the salary on the contract that I signed. Obviously, this is not a comprehensive list -- just a very tiny few examples.

Like larryboy, I'm not trying to deter anyone from medicine -- I just wanted to provide some numbers and food for thought for those interested. I think it's good to know what you are potentially getting yourself into, regardless of career choice.