Is paying OOS tuition worth it if it's a mid-tier school?

[Ashers]

The schools might not be different, but imagine somebody who would rather be close to their family in good weather rather than 2000 miles away from home, in what might as well be the Arctic winter. That makes a big difference, IMO.

Or someone who would like to be close to their family, in good weather, but despised one's state's school's curriculum only to come to a school 4000 miles away from home, paying a lot more. I hate cold -- I've learned I NEVER EVER want to live in cold again.

Like I said in my earlier post. I'm so much happier here than I would be if I had stayed at home. Defintely worth the money for me anyway.

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[Critical Mass]

Perhaps, but odds are you really won't be substantially happier. The insides of libraries, classrooms and wards look pretty much the same wherever you go. When you are talking about schools not on opposite extremes in terms of what they can offer, you are probably better off saving the dough.

Agree with this.

After having been in school for a year, I probably would have paid a little bit more (say 10-15K/year) to go to a better one. 100K over 4 years? Hmm... only if it also had considerably more prestige associated with it and a bona fide better curriculum in addition to making me "happier." That's a tall order. That said, I agree with the common philosophy that prestige is a pre-allo myth used to sell magazines. Since the prestige thing is remotely linked to higher costs of living (i.e. decreased happiness/more stress) and possibly even increased competativeness (again more stress), it's unlikely that I'd ever come up with reason to justify 100K.

 

[searun]

The schools might not be different, but imagine somebody who would rather be close to their family in good weather rather than 2000 miles away from home, in what might as well be the Arctic winter. That makes a big difference, IMO.

I am from the Northwest and have been accepted to med school in sunny California and mentally had made up my mind that it was "California here I come." I have been very upbeat about my decision. But two days ago I got an unexpected financial package from a medical school located in a large industrial city in the artic zone in the East. Both schools have good reputations and the school in the East is probably even more highly regarded. But I did not get a good vibe there and have not been enthusiatic about attending there. But the difference in cost is $100,000 over 4 years and now mentally I am in the tank. I have to make up my mind soon..do I follow my heart and say screw the money and go to Cali or do I make the practical decision with the fear (which may be unfounded) that I will be miserable in the artic? I am really struggling with the decision. I am inclined to follow my heart but then I have visions of myself in 8 years kicking my own ass because of the additional debt.

 

[Law2Doc]

I am from the Northwest and have been accepted to med school in sunny California and mentally had made up my mind that it was "California here I come." I have been very upbeat about my decision. But two days ago I got an unexpected financial package from a medical school located in a large industrial city in the artic zone in the East. Both schools have good reputations and the school in the East is probably even more highly regarded. But I did not get a good vibe there and have not been enthusiatic about attending there. But the difference in cost is $100,000 over 4 years and now mentally I am in the tank. I have to make up my mind soon..do I follow my heart and say screw the money and go to Cali or do I make the practical decision with the fear (which may be unfounded) that I will be miserable in the artic? I am really struggling with the decision. I am inclined to follow my heart but then I have visions of myself in 8 years kicking my own ass because of the additional debt.

Cali will still be there in 4 years when you apply for residencies. I don't know that you couldn't be not kicking yourself if you turned down a "more highly regarded" school that was $100k cheaper. Just use some of that money and take all your vacations out west.

 

[chandelantern]

I am from the Northwest and have been accepted to med school in sunny California and mentally had made up my mind that it was "California here I come." I have been very upbeat about my decision. But two days ago I got an unexpected financial package from a medical school located in a large industrial city in the artic zone in the East. Both schools have good reputations and the school in the East is probably even more highly regarded. But I did not get a good vibe there and have not been enthusiatic about attending there. But the difference in cost is $100,000 over 4 years and now mentally I am in the tank. I have to make up my mind soon..do I follow my heart and say screw the money and go to Cali or do I make the practical decision with the fear (which may be unfounded) that I will be miserable in the artic? I am really struggling with the decision. I am inclined to follow my heart but then I have visions of myself in 8 years kicking my own ass because of the additional debt.

You have a tough decision to make and I feel for you. I was in a similar situation for undergrad...go to CA paying a ton more (money of which I didn't have at all) or staying in the midwest where my boyfriend, family, and every logical decision-making person told me to go. In the end I ignored them and followed my heart...I went to CA because I knew I would always regret it if I didn't. it was the hardest and best decision I ever made. There were some tough times in undergrad with money and being alone but it was the best 4 years I could have ever imagine and I wouldn't trade them for anything. Everything ended up working out and I have some debt, obviously, but I'd never complain about it because it was worth it.

Oh, and someone on this forum claimed med school is not a happy time no matter where you go - personally I think that's a sh***y attitude and is probably the reason you are not happy at med school or around happy people. I am VERY happy in med school and I did see a big difference in the happiness of students at different schools I have visited. Outsider opinion, of course, but it made a difference to me in choosing where to go and it certainly is a factor the OP and others making that difficult decision of where to get their medical education should think about.

 

[Diceman M.D.]

Go with the cheaper option. Regardless of where you go, you'll end up hating your school and the bullsh*t that comes along with it anyway, so at least if you're gonna subject yourself to the abuse, don't give them the satisfaction of also landing you into debt.

Oh yah - I'd reserve my judgments of other people who aren't having such a good time at school, until you've gotten a few of your evals back from third year and seen what it's like yourself.

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

These is no fee too high to get the hell away from your parents. Just do it, a lifetime of debt is a splinter compared to living with those annoying suffocating lunatics.

 

[njbmd]

Moving to Pre-Allo as this is a pre-med issue. Allopathic students can respond there.

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

bumped

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

bump

 

[notdeadyet]

Interesting discussion. I think that some folks are probably on the extreme edges ("I'd live in a $hithole for $1K/year lower tuition" vs. "I'll pay whatever it costs to go to the school with the better smelling cadaver lab").

I think that for most, it's wise to be somewhere in the middle and choose accordingly. Ask yourself what is the difference in cost, and what is the difference in your passion for one school over another (whether it's curriculum, location, research projects, whatever). If it's a little money and a lot of passion, that's one thing. If it's a lot of money, that's something else.

 

[notdeadyet]

Personally, another factor that enters my decision making process is the administration itself. I went through the interview process at one school and was very put off by every contact I had with the administration. Trying to get information or questions answered was like pulling teeth. When I had a chance to meet with folks, they obviously couldn't care less about my takeaway.

I don't need handholding and am not particularly vulnerable to marketing, but this sort of interaction sends up red flags to me. If a school completely disdains you, the odds that they will suddenly want to work with you once you set foot on their campus are very long. And in my experience, those that work hard to work with you in the early stages tend to keep the momentum later in your relationship. If a school doesn't care about me while they're trying to get a deposit out of me, how flexible will they be when I need it down the road? What are the odds they'll go the extra mile for me later?

Medical school, to me, is like any other purchase. You need to weigh all the factors (price very heavily) and choose accordingly. But I don't want to pay $200K to an institution I don't like or couldn't care less about me.

 

[notdeadyet]

damn dupe

 

[postbacker]

Personally, another factor that enters my decision making process is the administration itself. I went through the interview process at one school and was very put off by every contact I had with the administration...Trying to get information or questions answered was like pulling teeth...When I had a chance to meet with folks, they obviously couldn't care less about my takeaway...If a school completely disdains you, the odds that they will suddenly want to work with you once you set foot on their campus are very long.

I wholeheartedly agree that a bad admissions experience can influence your feelings about a school, but I think you have to separate the admissions process from the school itself when weighing offers - in other words, once you matriculate, you will have little or no further contact with admissions, right? - with other admin, yes, but not admissions...the admissions offices at these schools are overwhelmed with an avalanche of apps, etc...not cutting them any slack, but I would not place much emphasis on the weight I give to my interactions with admissions...

I find student surveys on their experiences with the admin to be very enlightening, though...the link that popped up the other day to student surveys makes for interesting reading...

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

so far i've sort of put administrative issues in the "bells and whistles" category, along with quality of the facilities. unless i get into trouble in med school (which i don't plan on), i don't see how having a bad administration will have a substantial impact on me. i think the students and faculty will have far more impact on my daily happiness. in fact, there might even be a case to be made that a harsh administration is a good introduction to residency. we won't get many favors during residency, so why not shape our expectations early?

 

[notdeadyet]

once you matriculate, you will have little or no further contact with admissions, right? - with other admin, yes, but not admissions...the admissions offices at these schools are overwhelmed with an avalanche of apps, etc...not cutting them any slack, but I would not place much emphasis on the weight I give to my interactions with admissions...

I was being pretty specific when I said administration rather than admissions. I probably should have been more clear though. I would be very hesitant to take too much stock in a sales job, but if the administration is faulty, I take it as a very bad sign.

 

[notdeadyet]

so far i've sort of put administrative issues in the "bells and whistles" category, along with quality of the facilities.

You're in the majority with that. I'm definitely in a minority in my thinking.

unless i get into trouble in med school (which i don't plan on), i don't see how having a bad administration will have a substantial impact on me. i think the students and faculty will have far more impact on my daily happiness.

A bad administration will have a big impact on faculty and program effectiveness. You can have wonderfully-intended programs devoted to early clinical exposure, working with the medically underserved, and student-directed research. But if these programs are hobbled by an ineffective and inefficient administration, the programs won't function well, or not nearly as well as they should. And if an administration is very bad for very long, many of that great faculty are going to be watching the door.

You can have an inspired student body and a talented faculty, but if the administration is bad, the whole system is very much hobbled. I taught for about five years at a few colleges and saw this very much to be the case. Given the red tape and hierarchical structure of medical education, I can't imagine they get a pass here.

Again, we all have our own criteria. But personally, if a medical school is poorly run and led, it gives me pause.

 

[postbacker]

I was being pretty specific when I said administration rather than admissions. I probably should have been more clear though. I would be very hesitant to take too much stock in a sales job, but if the administration is faulty, I take it as a very bad sign.

Nope, my bad...you were specific, I just assumed admissions...

But now I am curious...how much contact with admin have you had outside of admissions or financial aid? And was this contact before you had received offers of admission, or after?

What kinds of questions are you asking, etc? Is this information available anywhere else? How high up the food chain in admin have you been directing your inquiries?

Bear with a little devil's advocacy here, but I can only imagine that non admissions administrators might not have a lot of time to entertain questions from applicants...now, once you have been admitted, and assuming you are approaching the correct contact person for your particular questions, maybe I can see your point...but I question how much contact an applicant should expect from the non-admissions, non-financial administration of any medical school during the app cycle...post acceptance, your expectations for admin support are justified.

 

[notdeadyet]

Postbacker- Your questions are all very valid. I'm not comfortable answering them as it would be hard not to "out" the school I have reservations about. I expect med schools to not slam me as an individual, so I'm not willing to slam them individually either.

I'm not suggesting applicants to dial up the head of pathology at a med school and ask about lab space and then get ruffled feathers when the call is not returned. I just feel that if you do have exposure to a school's administration, judging the school based on this interaction is fair game.

And even with admissions, there are some schools out there that I had contact with that didn't seem to care if I attended or not. If a school's admissions office doesn't care if I attend or not, it would be a leap of faith to assume that they're particularly student-centric after admission.

 

[postbacker]

Postbacker- Your questions are all very valid. I'm not comfortable answering them as it would be hard not to "out" the school I have reservations about. I expect med schools to not slam me as an individual, so I'm not willing to slam them individually either.

I'm not suggesting applicants to dial up the head of pathology at a med school and ask about lab space and then get ruffled feathers when the call is not returned. I just feel that if you do have exposure to a school's administration, judging the school based on this interaction is fair game.

And even with admissions, there are some schools out there that I had contact with that didn't seem to care if I attended or not. If a school's admissions office doesn't care if I attend or not, it would be a leap of faith to assume that they're particularly student-centric after admission.

Don't get me wrong - I take into consideration all of my contact with a school or business when making any decisions about committing to them - and I expect to be treated cordially, and I further expect that if someone cannot help me, they can refer me to the proper person.

Good luck.

 

[gudog]

The very fact that this discussion is occurring is indicative of the coming crisis that I think private med schools are about to experience.

Medicare, Medicaid, HMO's, PPO's all pay us the same amount, no matter where our MD degree is from.

I predict the day when the hardest medical schools to gain entrance to will be state schools. Private schools will lower their tuitions just to fill their classes.

 

[Mickeyd4d]

Haven't posted on SDN for awhile. But since I'm busy trying to decide where to go next year - I thought I'd see what you folks had to say. My instate school is much cheaper...but my least favorite school-wise:

INSTATE: University of Washington SOM

• Get to move back near my family, Cheap (saving +$100,000), good reputation(i guess), old facilities, good hospital

• BUT... I wasn't thrilled about the school, the Admissions were really mean, I don't want to do Primary Care, fiance has to find new job, might get WWAMIed

OUT OF STATE: Jefferson

• Liked the school alot more than UWSOM. Already settled in Philly. Fiance has good job. Fiance's family is near Philly. Seem to prepare you well for specialties. New facilities.

• BUT... Expensive, not as 'highly ranked', a little too big of a class size for my taste, etc.

OUT OF STATE: Dartmouth

• Good school, small classes, real nice & take good care of students...

• In the middle of nowhere, neither of our families are nearby, old facilities, patient population limited

Needless to say, none of the 3 'jumps out' at me. Each of the 3 pro/con lists balance each other out in different areas. The big attraction is saving over $100,000 at UWSOM, thought it was my leas favorite of all 3 schools .....

Thoughts? Thanks in advance...

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

Haven't posted on SDN for awhile. But since I'm busy trying to decide where to go next year - I thought I'd see what you folks had to say. My instate school is much cheaper...but my least favorite school-wise:

INSTATE: University of Washington SOM

• Get to move back near my family, Cheap (saving +$100,000), good reputation(i guess), old facilities, good hospital

• BUT... I wasn't thrilled about the school, the Admissions were really mean, I don't want to do Primary Care, fiance has to find new job, might get WWAMIed

OUT OF STATE: Jefferson

• Liked the school alot more than UWSOM. Already settled in Philly. Fiance has good job. Fiance's family is near Philly. Seem to prepare you well for specialties. New facilities.

• BUT... Expensive, not as 'highly ranked', a little too big of a class size for my taste, etc.

OUT OF STATE: Dartmouth

• Good school, small classes, real nice & take good care of students...

• In the middle of nowhere, neither of our families are nearby, old facilities, patient population limited

Needless to say, none of the 3 'jumps out' at me. Each of the 3 pro/con lists balance each other out in different areas. The big attraction is saving over $100,000 at UWSOM, thought it was my leas favorite of all 3 schools .....

Thoughts? Thanks in advance...

it doesn't sound easy on paper, but in fact i'd say you should try to get more information on u wash. who cares if admissions were mean? how mean are the *faculty* and how happy are the *students*? it's very dangerous to base an impression off the interview day, so get more info!!!

i'll admit my bias is that i just don't understand why anybody would want to live in philly over seattle (especially if you're getting paid 100k for it). if i could go to u wash for 100k cheaper, i would drop all my other acceptances. i'm envious of your state of residence.

 

[postbacker]

it doesn't sound easy on paper, but in fact i'd say you should try to get more information on u wash. who cares if admissions were mean? how mean are the *faculty* and how happy are the *students*? it's very dangerous to base an impression off the interview day, so get more info!!!

i'll admit my bias is that i just don't understand why anybody would want to live in philly over seattle (especially if you're getting paid 100k for it). if i could go to u wash for 100k cheaper, i would drop all my other acceptances. i'm envious of your state of residence.

I am totally with Dr Detroit on this one. Unless there is something about UW I do not understand, how can they "force" you into primary care? Is your acceptance conditional on this?

$100k is a lot to spend given your options and your objections to UW.

 

[Carmenita79]

Haven't posted on SDN for awhile. But since I'm busy trying to decide where to go next year - I thought I'd see what you folks had to say. My instate school is much cheaper...but my least favorite school-wise:

INSTATE: University of Washington SOM

• Get to move back near my family, Cheap (saving +$100,000), good reputation(i guess), old facilities, good hospital

• BUT... I wasn't thrilled about the school, the Admissions were really mean, I don't want to do Primary Care, fiance has to find new job, might get WWAMIed

OUT OF STATE: Jefferson

• Liked the school alot more than UWSOM. Already settled in Philly. Fiance has good job. Fiance's family is near Philly. Seem to prepare you well for specialties. New facilities.

• BUT... Expensive, not as 'highly ranked', a little too big of a class size for my taste, etc.

OUT OF STATE: Dartmouth

• Good school, small classes, real nice & take good care of students...

• In the middle of nowhere, neither of our families are nearby, old facilities, patient population limited

Needless to say, none of the 3 'jumps out' at me. Each of the 3 pro/con lists balance each other out in different areas. The big attraction is saving over $100,000 at UWSOM, thought it was my leas favorite of all 3 schools .....

Thoughts? Thanks in advance...

Actually, lots of people from UW go into specialties. Plus, UW has a research requirement, where you could do a project in any field you want (thats a plus for going into a specialty).

What does your fiance do and how hard would it be for them to get a job in Seattle? If moving to seattle would mean a 25k/year pay cut (probably unlikely) for them then then there really is no savings in going to UW.

 

[notdeadyet]

Saving $100K is not to be sneezed at. And all things being equal, UW's reputation is far better nationally than the other two schools. Though I'm not fond of rankings, UW is ranked #6; it's not considered a primary care school any more than Stanford is.

 

[Mickeyd4d]

Doctor~Detroit:
I've actually spent a lot of time getting plenty information on the UWSOM beyond my interview. Since they don't offer a 2nd look - I flew out there with my fiance to see the school myself and meet with a couple friends of mine who currently go there. Compared to the other schools they were definitely not as enthusiastic - at least with the 1st two years.

As for them being mean - I just haven't been very impressed with any of the interaction with them thus far (fin aid, admissions, residency - They haven't been very accommodating and the atmosphere isn't that enjoyable). They just don't seem to appreciate their students as much as the other schools.


postbacker
I understand they can't force you into a residency - I didn't mean to suggest that. From talking with students it just seems they persuade you to go in that direction. It's part of the schools mission, along with Rural Medicine.


Carmenita79
The info about the research is a good point. That would definitely come in handy. My fiance has a good management position at a large finance company in Philly. I too doubt she would get a 25k pay cut, especially since the cost of living in Seattle is higher and thus mean salaries are too. However the option of leaving a company where you've worked years to climb the corporate ladder - to go find a new job and start all over again is definitely not attractive.


notdeadyet
Is UW's reputation far better nationally? I don't think the rankings mean much since it's all about NIH $ and % to primary care. Dartmouth turns out great people and Jefferson is well regard for their clinicians - more so in the northeast. Is the UW recognized on the East coast vs. West coast? I know the lay man wouldn't rank the UW as a top school.


Thanks for all your feedback. My gut just tells me I'd least like life it at UW, especially if I get stuck in Pullman for the 1st year, and wanted to add to the discussion about $$ vs. enjoying school.

Good to all...

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

Doctor~Detroit:
I've actually spent a lot of time getting plenty information on the UWSOM beyond my interview. Since they don't offer a 2nd look - I flew out there with my fiance to see the school myself and meet with a couple friends of mine who currently go there. Compared to the other schools they were definitely not as enthusiastic - at least with the 1st two years.

As for them being mean - I just haven't been very impressed with any of the interaction with them thus far (fin aid, admissions, residency - They haven't been very accommodating and the atmosphere isn't that enjoyable). They just don't seem to appreciate their students as much as the other schools.


postbacker
I understand they can't force you into a residency - I didn't mean to suggest that. From talking with students it just seems they persuade you to go in that direction. It's part of the schools mission, along with Rural Medicine.


Carmenita79
The info about the research is a good point. That would definitely come in handy. My fiance has a good management position at a large finance company in Philly. I too doubt she would get a 25k pay cut, especially since the cost of living in Seattle is higher and thus mean salaries are too. However the option of leaving a company where you've worked years to climb the corporate ladder - to go find a new job and start all over again is definitely not attractive.


notdeadyet
Is UW's reputation far better nationally? I don't think the rankings mean much since it's all about NIH $ and % to primary care. Dartmouth turns out great people and Jefferson is well regard for their clinicians - more so in the northeast. Is the UW recognized on the East coast vs. West coast? I know the lay man wouldn't rank the UW as a top school.


Thanks for all your feedback. My gut just tells me I'd least like life it at UW, especially if I get stuck in Pullman for the 1st year, and wanted to add to the discussion about $$ vs. enjoying school.

Good to all...

it sounds like you know which way to go.

anything else on the money versus happiness dilemma?

 

[notdeadyet]

notdeadyet
Is UW's reputation far better nationally? I don't think the rankings mean much since it's all about NIH $ and % to primary care. Dartmouth turns out great people and Jefferson is well regard for their clinicians - more so in the northeast. Is the UW recognized on the East coast vs. West coast? I know the lay man wouldn't rank the UW as a top school.

I'd be very hesitant to choose a medical school based on layman name value recognition. Do that, and you'll be picking schools with great basketball teams. Not saying that the patient is unimportant, just that I wouldn't take Joe Public's opinion of a particular school with a lot of weight.

UW does have fantastic recognition amongs those whose opinions will have the biggest impact on your career. People like residency directors, etc.

 

[blackdog280]

Mickeyd4d--What does your fiance think? That should be a huge consideration.

I don't know how your fiance feels, but I've been in her shoes, and I know how I felt. I have a career (not just a job, but a career I've spent 7 years building) and my husband applied to med school. His choice between the local school where my career is and a faraway school that was better ranked, or that he might have enjoyed more, was a no brainer for me. I wanted to keep my job and not move to a strange city. Your fiance is making a big sacrifice for you to go to med school--if it would be easier on her to stay where her career is AND where her family is, that should weigh heavily in your calculation. (I'm not saying that is true in her case, just that if it is, that should matter).

 

[Doctor~Detroit]

hey you guys!

i think i found a way to rationalize spending more money for a school that i think will make me happier.

you see, it's not that the school i like failed to give me a scholarship, but they just decided to take their alum donation up-front rather than waiting until i had a job or died. so i'll pay now and not give anything in alum donations.

selfish, but i think it works as a delusional tactic.