Is SDN's opinion on LUCOM representative of the majority?

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First of all, I'm an atheist who interviewed in LUCOM for the 2014-2015 cycle.
So hopefully my opinion on the school would bear a little more weight than @Mad Jack, @serenade, @SouthernSurgeon, and all the other flaming SDNer who once heard about LUCOM from a guy's sister who once shared a cab with this girl whose brother dealt weed to this minister who drove past Lynchberg during his summer break. LOLL

Now to address the obvious red flag of LUCOM:
-Inferior admission stats (MCAT and GPA): This factor was definitely addressed during the interview. They took a comprehensive look at every single interviewee's application, meaning that sometimes an applicant with inferior stats are considered because of their extraordinary EC. An example is this war veteran who served in the frontline of Iraq; he had to clear the house to make sure no bombs or threat is present so his fellow teammates could seige the place. He had average GPA and abysmal MCAT of 18. Needless to say, no other school would accept him but LUCOM did. From what I heard, he is one of the top students in the class.

-Religious affiliation: Like I said, I'm an adamant atheist. Some of my favorite youtube series are the Atheist Experience featuring Matt Dilihunty, the Hitchslap series, moral landscape by Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins.
We have to begin to acknowledge that we live in a melting pot of religious beliefs. And the hallmark of a physician is compassion, love, and humility.
Yes, I'm aware that there are some belligerent religious fanatics out there who spread hate than love. But these people shouldn't be put on the same boat as other religious moderates.
During the interview, it was pointed out that there are several non-Christian students in the class. I did not personally meet any of these people so I can only take it with a grain of salt.
We can't bring up religious affiliation without talking about the young earth science.
So yes, unfortunately, students admitted into the school will be exposed to this ludicrous idea.
Other critics like @Goro pointed that they have problems with some of the things put out by its parent institution. I have read those wacky fairy tales. However, I see that as a small dent and not as a giant red flag.
However, that doesn't mean the academic rigor will be subparred. Rather, many of their faculties are actually board review writers and board video review examiners. So they are not amateur by any means.
Other thingson this topic: they pray before meeting and test. School closes on Sunday morning.
Also, no one questioned my religious faith during the interview. I felt totally fine.

-Accreditation (omg, the school will be shut down): to my knowledge, the program director of the LUCOM had decades of experience working with DMU or something. (my memory is a little foggy). They just had the school inspectors swing by and the school is not shut down yet, so they must be doing something fine. It was also mentioned that there are safety net for students in case school loses accreditation.

My conclusion: LUCOM hate on SDN is blown out of proportion. Religious affiliation is non-ideal, but very tolerable. Academic rigor is great. Accreditation is a little shaky right now. Would I go there if I'm not accepted into anything else? --> yes. Is LUCOM > Carribean? --> yes. Would the LUCOM graduates be competent doctors? --> yes. (A hospital administrator who throws the application of a LUCOM graduate out of the window shows a tremendous amount of ignorance - judging a book by its cover - and would most certainly not climb to that type of position any time soon)
 
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HappyLuckySmile said:
First of all, I'm an atheist who interviewed in LUCOM for the 2014-2015 cycle.
So hopefully my opinion on the school would bear a little more weight than @Mad Jack, @serenade, @SouthernSurgeon, and all the other flaming SDNer who once heard about LUCOM from a guy's sister who once shared a cab with this girl whose brother dealt weed to this minister who drove past Lynchberg during his summer break. LOLL

Now to address the obvious red flag of LUCOM:
-Inferior admission stats (MCAT and GPA): This factor was definitely addressed during the interview. They took a comprehensive look at every single interviewee's application, meaning that sometimes an applicant with inferior stats are considered because of their extraordinary EC. An example is this war veteran who served in the frontline of Iraq; he had to clear the house to make sure no bombs or threat is present so his fellow teammates could seige the place. He had average GPA and abysmal MCAT of 18. Needless to say, no other school would accept him but LUCOM did. From what I heard, he is one of the top students in the class.

-Religious affiliation: Like I said, I'm an adamant atheist. Some of my favorite youtube series are the Atheist Experience featuring Matt Dilihunty, the Hitchslap series, moral landscape by Sam Harris, and Richard Dawkins.
We have to begin to acknowledge that we live in a melting pot of religious beliefs. And the hallmark of a physician is compassion, love, and humility.
Yes, I'm aware that there are some belligerent religious fanatics out there who spread hate than love. But these people shouldn't be put on the same boat as other religious moderates.
During the interview, it was pointed out that there are several non-Christian students in the class. I did not personally meet any of these people so I can only take it with a grain of salt.
We can't bring up religious affiliation without talking about the young earth science.
So yes, unfortunately, students admitted into the school will be exposed to this ludicrous idea.
Also, apparently people pray before meetings and test.
However, that doesn't mean the academic rigor will be subparred. Rather, many of their faculties are actually board review writers and board video review examiners. So they are not amateur by any means.
Also, no one questioned my religious faith during the interview. I felt totally fine.

-Accreditation (omg, the school will be shut down): to my knowledge, the program director of the LUCOM had decades of experience working with DMU or something. (my memory is a little foggy). They just had the school inspectors swing by and the school is not shut down yet, so they must be doing something fine. It was also mentioned that there are safety net for students in case school loses accreditation.

My conclusion: LUCOM hate on SDN is blown out of proportion. Religious affiliation is non-ideal, but very tolerable. Academic rigor is great. Accreditation is a little shaky right now. Would I go there if I'm not accepted into anything else? --> yes. Is LUCOM > Carribean? --> yes. Would the LUCOM graduates be competent doctors? --> yes. (A hospital administrator who throws the application of a LUCOM graduate out of the window shows a tremendous amount of ignorance - judging a book by its cover - and would most certainly not climb to that type of position any time soon)
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Finish him!
 
FYI, ALL new DO schools start out with" provisional" accreditation. these means they are under a trial period to get things up and running. At a certain time point, the COCA folks will be back to assess LUCOM's progress. At that point, the school will be accredited for either 3, 5 or 7 years if nothing amiss is found. The 7 year period tends to be extraordinary.

-Accreditation (omg, the school will be shut down): to my knowledge, the program director of the LUCOM had decades of experience working with DMU or something. (my memory is a little foggy). They just had the school inspectors swing by and the school is not shut down yet, so they must be doing something fine. It was also mentioned that there are safety net for students in case school loses accreditation.

Can you elaborate?
We can't bring up religious affiliation without talking about the young earth science.
So yes, unfortunately, students admitted into the school will be exposed to this ludicrous idea.
 
Goro said:
FYI, ALL new DO schools start out with" provisional" accreditation. these means they are under a trial period to get things up and running. At a certain time point, the COCA folks will be back to assess LUCOM's progress. At that point, the school will be accredited for either 3, 5 or 7 years if nothing amiss is found. The 7 year period tends to be extraordinary.

-Accreditation (omg, the school will be shut down): to my knowledge, the program director of the LUCOM had decades of experience working with DMU or something. (my memory is a little foggy). They just had the school inspectors swing by and the school is not shut down yet, so they must be doing something fine. It was also mentioned that there are safety net for students in case school loses accreditation.

Can you elaborate?
We can't bring up religious affiliation without talking about the young earth science.
So yes, unfortunately, students admitted into the school will be exposed to this ludicrous idea.
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Thanks for the wiki definition of provisional accreditation. Right on the money. The deans said there are safety net for students in case school doesn't pass the test. I'm not sure of the specific.

Ken ham vs bill nye debate should blow any young earth advocates out of their minds. There are trees older than 6000 years and ice cap melting-solidifying pattern. To say otherwise is to deny facts (but this is besides the point am leading this thread to another direction)
 
If LUCOM is denied accreditation, then the students will be split up among all the other COMs. So, ballparking it, about 3-5 of your classmates would end up at my school. This worst case" scenario would also apply if a school had to close due to money issues, like, coincidentally, the Oral Roberts School of Medicine (the last US medical school to go belly up, I believe).

Thanks for the wiki definition of provisional accreditation. Right on the money. The deans said there are safety net for students in case school doesn't pass the test. I'm not sure of the specific.
 
Goro said:
If LUCOM is denied accreditation, then the students will be split up among all the other COMs. So, ballparking it, about 3-5 of your classmates would end up at my school. This worst case" scenario would also apply if a school had to close due to money issues, like, coincidentally, the Oral Roberts School of Medicine (the last US medical school to go belly up, I believe).

Thanks for the wiki definition of provisional accreditation. Right on the money. The deans said there are safety net for students in case school doesn't pass the test. I'm not sure of the specific.
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Interesting, another Evangelist school. Although i doubt Liberty has any problems with money
 
@Goro if somebody you cared about that had always dreamed of being a doctor...but had average grades, and could only score a 23 MCAT despite their best efforts-- if that person was only able to gain acceptance to LUCOM, and all other schools said no, would you still not give them your blessings?
 
user3 said:
@Goro if somebody you cared about that had always dreamed of being a doctor...but had average grades, and could only score a 23 MCAT despite their best efforts-- if that person was only able to gain acceptance to LUCOM, and all other schools said no, would you still not give them your blessings?
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What a weird way to put it: why don't we just open up enough medical schools so that everyone who dreams of being a doctor becomes one 😵
 
allantois said:
What a weird way to put it: why don't we just open up enough medical schools so that everyone who dreams of being a doctor becomes one 😵
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I prefer LUCOM vs desk job/ alternative career. LUCOM probably wins.
 
The majority of people probably have no opinion about LUCOM. Religion and medicine can mix well together--I have very pious friends at allo schools with great intellects. Religion aside, people should not go to a DO school with extra low academic standard and unconvincing management that's all. I don't know anything about LUCOM, but if it'll make me frown to see its admission stats then that'll be my opinion about the school.
 
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user3 said:
@Goro if somebody you cared about that had always dreamed of being a doctor...but had average grades, and could only score a 23 MCAT despite their best efforts-- if that person was only able to gain acceptance to LUCOM, and all other schools said no, would you still not give them your blessings?
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I would disown anyone that attended LUCOM that I knew. The thing is, anyone that attends this school is funding the paychecks and research of some of the most outspoken crazies on the planet, such as these guys:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mic...chool-dean-gay-marriage-beginning-end-western
https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/unraveling-origins-controversy/

And the guy who published a paper on how sex during a woman's period could kill her, etc. I'm honestly too tired to dig up my favorite examples of LUCOM "research," but, sufficed to say, anyone that goes there should be disavowed as a member of our profession as surely as someone who went to a medical school that had the Klu Klux Klan or the Nazi Party as a parent organization for its school. Medicine is a profession of principle above all else, and my principles do not allow me to associate with those that fund evil, for they are indirectly endorsing the actions of the evil that they enrich through their providing of funds.
 
FriendlyFH said:
The majority of people probably have no opinion about LUCOM. Religion and medicine can mix well together--I have very pious friends top allo schools with great intellects. Religion aside, people should not go to a DO school with extra low academic standard and unconvincing management that's all. I don't know anything about LUCOM, but if it'll make me frown to see its stats then that'll be my opinion about the school.
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There's nothing wrong with being religious in medicine. No one has a problem with Loyola, CUSOM, MUCOM, or any of the other Christian universities. LUCOM is a different beast, spawned from an organization that is not merely "religious," but highly political as well. Medical schools should be apolitical, and should not have their funds being diverted to institutions that strongly back one party or the other, nor should they fund institutions that are highly and openly discriminative toward large groups of people.
 
Mad Jack said:
I would disown anyone that attended LUCOM that I knew. The thing is, anyone that attends this school is funding the paychecks and research of some of the most outspoken crazies on the planet, such as these guys:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mic...chool-dean-gay-marriage-beginning-end-western
https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/unraveling-origins-controversy/

And the guy who published a paper on how sex during a woman's period could kill her, etc. I'm honestly too tired to dig up my favorite examples of LUCOM "research," but, sufficed to say, anyone that goes there should be disavowed as a member of our profession as surely as someone who went to a medical school that had the Klu Klux Klan or the Nazi Party as a parent organization for its school. Medicine is a profession of principle above all else, and my principles do not allow me to associate with those that fund evil, for they are indirectly endorsing the actions of the evil that they enrich through their providing of funds.
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It is pretty sad to see these types of research papers surfacing because these types of beliefs breed ignorance and hate.
However, lets be clear: these "research" are published from LUCOM's affiliate colleges.
Also, even though these statements are made from someone from the higher up, you cannot just paint every graduate with a broad stroke.

On the side note: LUCOM is opening its research facility soon. I hope that the college wouldn't go down this dark path.
 
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HappyLuckySmile said:
It is pretty sad to see these types of research papers surfacing because these types of beliefs breed ignorance and hate.
However, lets be clear: these "research" are published from LUCOM's affiliate colleges.
Also, even though these statements are made from someone from the higher up, you cannot just paint every graduate with a broad stroke.
What you're doing is equivalent of saying all of Hitlers' children deserve death because of statements and actions made by their dad.

On the side note: LUCOM is opening its research facility soon. I hope that the college wouldn't go down this dark path.
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Why should you not associate a medical school to its parent institution? The college of medicine opened thanks to the highest leadership of Liberty University. If LUCOM does not want to be associated with Liberty University, they would need to reopen under a different parent institution, but in that case we won't be having this discussion.

I see no reason for why a LUCOM graduate should not be judged for making a conscious decision of attending an institution of hate.
 
Mad Jack said:
And the guy who published a paper on how sex during a woman's period could kill her
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This is actually technically true if you're talking about endometriosis. I'm assuming you haven't taken gyn yet.
 
Jwalker said:
This is actually technically true if you're talking about endometriosis. I'm assuming you haven't taken gyn yet.
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I haven't, but his paper want in reference to endometriosis. It was some wacky justification for the biblical van in sex during menstruation based on the theoretical possibility of fatal blood clots developing while having sex during that time of the month.
 
HappyLuckySmile said:
It is pretty sad to see these types of research papers surfacing because these types of beliefs breed ignorance and hate.
However, lets be clear: these "research" are published from LUCOM's affiliate colleges.
Also, even though these statements are made from someone from the higher up, you cannot just paint every graduate with a broad stroke.
What you're doing is equivalent of saying all of Hitlers' children deserve death because of statements and actions made by their dad.

On the side note: LUCOM is opening its research facility soon. I hope that the college wouldn't go down this dark path.
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The point isn't that the people going there are bad people. It's that their tuition money directly finds the salaries of bad people at the undergraduate institution. LUCOM, like many of the newer DO schools, exists as a vehicle of additional funding and prestige for its parent institution. The people choosing to attend are choosing to give money to a place that will then use that money to pay for bigoted research and outspoken professors that hold votes that are detestable by most of society today. They've chosen to hand cash to an evil institution in exchange for a medical degree, made a bargain with the devil to further their own dreams. That's unacceptable to me, and why I will absolutely professionally dissociate with any LUCOM graduates until the day that Liberty undergoes some profound changes and actively dissociates from their Falwellian legacy.
 
Mad Jack said:
I would disown anyone that attended LUCOM that I knew. The thing is, anyone that attends this school is funding the paychecks and research of some of the most outspoken crazies on the planet, such as these guys:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/mic...chool-dean-gay-marriage-beginning-end-western
https://answersingenesis.org/store/product/unraveling-origins-controversy/

And the guy who published a paper on how sex during a woman's period could kill her, etc. I'm honestly too tired to dig up my favorite examples of LUCOM "research," but, sufficed to say, anyone that goes there should be disavowed as a member of our profession as surely as someone who went to a medical school that had the Klu Klux Klan or the Nazi Party as a parent organization for its school. Medicine is a profession of principle above all else, and my principles do not allow me to associate with those that fund evil, for they are indirectly endorsing the actions of the evil that they enrich through their providing of funds.
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I think many of us would like to see LUCOM fail and this is like the total warfare approach. By that standard, however, you should disown any Catholics you know who pay money to diocese for supporting the spread of AIDS in Africa and protecting sex offending clergy members.

I think we should give people a fair chance based upon their performance and values. We shouldn't judge everyone based upon the school they attended, however forked up it may be.

Now, if someone's values fell in-line with LU's, I'd have a problem but I can't say for certain that all graduates would be that way, so I'd have judge them individually.
 
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J Senpai said:
I think many of us would like to see LUCOM fail and this is like the total warfare approach. By that standard, however, you should disown any Catholics you know who pay money to diocese for supporting the spread of AIDS in Africa and protecting sex offending clergy members.

I think we should give people a fair chance based upon their performance and values. We can't judge everyone based upon the school they attended, however forked up it may be.
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The Catholic church doesn't "support" the spread of AIDS in Africa, nor do they view it (as Falwell did) as some sort of divine punishment begin wrought upon the Earth. While LUCOM has a top-down policy of intolerance, at the Catholic church, it's more bottom-up, where the people with the most extreme positions reside in the lower ranks. And don't even get me started on the fact that Liberty basically just exists as a training ground for those on the fringes of the Republican party. Schools shouldn't have political agendas, indoctrinate their students, or openly allow bigotry. I can't professionally associate with anyone that funds that sort of place. If a person looks at Liberty and says, "I'm okay with lining the pockets of those guys!" then they aren't the sort of person I'd care to work with or appoint to a residency position.
 
J Senpai said:
I think many of us would like to see LUCOM fail and this is like the total warfare approach. By that standard, however, you should disown any Catholics you know who pay money to diocese for supporting the spread of AIDS in Africa and protecting sex offending clergy members.

I think we should give people a fair chance based upon their performance and values. We shouldn't judge everyone based upon the school they attended, however forked up it may be.

Now, if someone's values fell in-line with LU's, I'd have a problem but I can't say for certain that all graduates would be that way, so I'd have judge them individually.
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I mean my parents stopped giving money to the church for that reason. That and the fact that they used over a million bucks to fight gay marriage in my state.
It's not like I disown people who still give, but they certainly don't have my respect.
 
Goro also mentioned something about how someone from that institution published a paper on the "science" of waiting for sexual intercourse after marriage or something ludicrous like that.

My question is how are these papers even accepted for publication? I'm baffled.
 
senzen said:
Goro also mentioned something about how someone from that institution published a paper on the "science" of waiting for sexual intercourse after marriage or something ludicrous like that.

My question is how are these papers even accepted for publication? I'm baffled.
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Omg I don't think I saw that. Now I want to
 
Mad Jack said:
The Catholic church doesn't "support" the spread of AIDS in Africa, nor do they view it (as Falwell did) as some sort of divine punishment begin wrought upon the Earth. While LUCOM has a top-down policy of intolerance, at the Catholic church, it's more bottom-up, where the people with the most extreme positions reside in the lower ranks. And don't even get me started on the fact that Liberty basically just exists as a training ground for those on the fringes of the Republican party. Schools shouldn't have political agendas, indoctrinate their students, or openly allow bigotry. I can't professionally associate with anyone that funds that sort of place. If a person looks at Liberty and says, "I'm okay with lining the pockets of those guys!" then they aren't the sort of person I'd care to work with or appoint to a residency position.
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I agree with everything you said except re: AIDS. They've historically opposed the distribution of condoms in Africa and Pope Benedict essentially stated that AIDS was bad, but not as bad as condoms.
 
Jwalker said:
According to my gyn professor. Yep.
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Although this is neither the forum not the thread for this, I can assure you that the pathophysiology of endometriosis does not require penile penetration during menses for its initiation or persistence. It has been associated with menstrual effluvium that passes through the fallopian tubes, but there is no evidence that intercourse affects this in any way. Many, many women have been found to have retrograde menstrual blood in the peritoneal cavity at laparoscopy with no evidence of endometriosis. The necessary defect appears to be the inability of peritoneal macrophages to identify and eliminate them as well as the intrinsic ability of those endometrial cells to acquire the capability to attach to tissues and develop something like neo-angiogenesis and autonomous aromatase ability.
 
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gyngyn said:
Although this is neither the forum not the thread for this, I can assure you that the pathophysiology of endometriosis does not require penile penetration during menses for its initiation or persistence. It has been associated with menstrual effluvium that passes through the fallopian tubes, but there is no evidence that intercourse affects this in any way.
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I disagree but nevertheless check your messages. I just sent one.


lack of sleep edit
 
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Jwalker said:
I disagree as the pathology is not entirely understood of it. I was also refering to ECTOPIC endomet. but nevertheless check your messages. I just sent one.
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All endometriosis is ectopic, by definition.
Nuns, virgins and adolescents suffer this condition as well as the sexually active.
Among sexually active women there is no disproportionate protection among women whose religion proscribes intercourse during menses (e.g. Orthodox Jews).
 
gyngyn said:
All endometriosis is ectopic, by definition.
Nuns, virgins and adolescents suffer this condition as well as the sexually active.
Among sexually active women there is no disproportionate protection among women whose religion proscribes intercourse during menses (e.g. Orthodox Jews).
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... from mayo clinic

"
Although the exact cause of endometriosis is not certain, several possible explanations include:

  • Retrograde menstruation. This is the most likely explanation for endometriosis. In retrograde menstruation, menstrual blood containing endometrial cells flows back through the fallopian tubes and into the pelvic cavity instead of out of the body. These displaced endometrial cells stick to the pelvic walls and surfaces of pelvic organs, where they grow and continue to thicken and bleed over the course of each menstrual cycle."

I maintain that a penis actively thrusting in a bleeding vagina will cause at least some backward/disruption flow of the blood. If you disagree with that statement then I guess we'll agree to disagree.
 
Jwalker said:
Since you won't respond to my message ... from mayo clinic

"
Although the exact cause of endometriosis is not certain, several possible explanations include:

  • Retrograde menstruation. This is the most likely explanation for endometriosis. In retrograde menstruation, menstrual blood containing endometrial cells flows back through the fallopian tubes and into the pelvic cavity instead of out of the body. These displaced endometrial cells stick to the pelvic walls and surfaces of pelvic organs, where they grow and continue to thicken and bleed over the course of each menstrual cycle."

I maintain that a penis actively thrusting in a bleeding vagina will cause at least some backward/disruption flow of the blood. If you disagree with that statement then I guess we'll agree to disagree.
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I did respond and I do agree with your excerpt (as you can see from my previous post).
The point of difference is with intercourse as an initiating factor. You will note that Mayo clinic does not draw that conclusion.
Retrograde blood is common and occurs in the absence of penetration.
In order for intercourse to be a precipitating cause, you would have to show that women who did not otherwise have regtrograde menstruation did have it because of intercourse.
 
gyngyn said:
I did respond and I do agree with your excerpt (as you can see from my previous post).
The point of difference is with intercourse as an initiating factor. You will note that Mayo clinic does not draw that conclusion.
Retrograde blood is common and occurs in the absence of penetration.
In order for intercourse to be a precipitating cause, you would have to show that women who did not otherwise have regtrograde menstruation did have it because of intercourse.
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I was saying not a precipitating cause, rather an additive effect to pre existing retrograde flow. We'll just agree to disagree.
 
HappyLuckySmile said:
What you're doing is equivalent of saying all of Hitlers' children deserve death because of statements and actions made by their dad.
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I don't think that's an accurate analogy. LUCOM and those associated with it were never helpless children, being born into a family they could do nothing about. Everyone involved in every step was a rational adult responsible for their own actions, from the creators of the med school to the professors who choose to teach there to the students who choose to enroll.

So a better Hitler analogy (if we must go there...) is that yes, every adult clamoring to associate with Hitler despite his known stances should be judged accordingly. That is what Mad Jack is advocating.
 
jamcat said:
Says the med student to the attending...
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I mean im just reiterating what my attending said who is very respected in the field. It's not liked I made up this theory on my own. Not all doctors agree in medicine.
 
I have a lot of problems with the direction this thread is heading, so I'll start with what should be the obvious.

Setting aside all the religion and politics, LUCOM would have 0% consideration in my books because they are a new school with terrible stats. The stats are somewhat forgivable for now (as it's a new school), and if they go in the direction of schools like RVU where their students incoming stats increase in the next few years and their kids dominate the boards, then it could be viable 3-4 years down the road. The bottom line is that it's a new school that is completely unproven, and I couldn't recommend anyone go to any new school when they have an acceptance at a strong school that's proven itself.

To address the other stuff:

I find the general intolerance towards anyone who would consider attending LUCOM on this thread disturbing. Yes, there is plenty of evidence the parent organization is involved in some unethical practices an research. Yes, it would be foolish to think that at least some of the money from tuition wouldn't be going back to the parent organization in some form. I have no problem with people posting the 'research' coming out of the school or exposing ridiculous policies such as their association with new creationism. Nor do I have a problem with people saying they can't support the institution or even saying they hope that it will close down.

What I do have a problem with is when someone says something like "I refuse to associate with anyone who associates themselves with that institution". For all you know, a person could choose to teach or work for the school in order to help pull it away from the ridiculous beliefs and encourage more evidence based methods. A student may choose to attend there because they are a re-applicant and were only able to get in there or at low-tier schools (some of which I don't think should still be open). There are several muslim and non-christian students at LUCOM now, would you automatically say they are unethical even though their views clearly do not align with the school's?

The amount of people here that are only seeing this as a black-and-white situation without considering the inevitable gray areas that come from looking at each individual's situation is not something I would expect from a community with significant levels of higher education. The kind of intolerance and fear-mongering coming from some people on this thread reminds me of the the intolerance towards the Japanese during WW2 and the red scare of the 50's. I find this attitude particularly deplorable when people are implying that they wouldn't work with other residents or doctors in order to provide the best care for their patients simply because of the school the co-worker attended.

Do I support the beliefs of LUCOM and their parent organization? No. Would I personally ever attend there? No. I would prefer not to associate with people who share the beliefs of LU. However, I absolutely would if it meant providing the best care for my patient. After all, treating my patients is my primary goal in medicine, not judging other based on their political or religious views.
 
Stagg737 said:
I have a lot of problems with the direction this thread is heading, so I'll start with what should be the obvious.

Setting aside all the religion and politics, LUCOM would have 0% consideration in my books because they are a new school with terrible stats. The stats are somewhat forgivable for now (as it's a new school), and if they go in the direction of schools like RVU where their students incoming stats increase in the next few years and their kids dominate the boards, then it could be viable 3-4 years down the road. The bottom line is that it's a new school that is completely unproven, and I couldn't recommend anyone go to any new school when they have an acceptance at a strong school that's proven itself.

To address the other stuff:

I find the general intolerance towards anyone who would consider attending LUCOM on this thread disturbing. Yes, there is plenty of evidence the parent organization is involved in some unethical practices an research. Yes, it would be foolish to think that at least some of the money from tuition wouldn't be going back to the parent organization in some form. I have no problem with people posting the 'research' coming out of the school or exposing ridiculous policies such as their association with new creationism. Nor do I have a problem with people saying they can't support the institution or even saying they hope that it will close down.

What I do have a problem with is when someone says something like "I refuse to associate with anyone who associates themselves with that institution". For all you know, a person could choose to teach or work for the school in order to help pull it away from the ridiculous beliefs and encourage more evidence based methods. A student may choose to attend there because they are a re-applicant and were only able to get in there or at low-tier schools (some of which I don't think should still be open). There are several muslim and non-christian students at LUCOM now, would you automatically say they are unethical even though their views clearly do not align with the school's?

The amount of people here that are only seeing this as a black-and-white situation without considering the inevitable gray areas that come from looking at each individual's situation is not something I would expect from a community with significant levels of higher education. The kind of intolerance and fear-mongering coming from some people on this thread reminds me of the the intolerance towards the Japanese during WW2 and the red scare of the 50's. I find this attitude particularly deplorable when people are implying that they wouldn't work with other residents or doctors in order to provide the best care for their patients simply because of the school the co-worker attended.

Do I support the beliefs of LUCOM and their parent organization? No. Would I personally ever attend there? No. I would prefer not to associate with people who share the beliefs of LU. However, I absolutely would if it meant providing the best care for my patient. After all, treating my patients is my primary goal in medicine, not judging other based on their political or religious views.
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Lol okay, having doubts about people who decide to attend an institution that's founder promoted racism and homophobia is JUST like internment camps.
You know some of us have family who actually were in those camps and don't appreciate using that comparison lightly.
 
touchpause13 said:
You know some of us have family who actually were in those camps and don't appreciate using that comparison lightly.
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Yes, I do know this, as I know several people that were in those camps. So I would never use it lightly. You've also misconstrued my comparison, as having doubts about people who attend LUCOM is very different from refusing to associate or interact with them at all. Mad Jack said he would disown anyone he knew that would attend LUCOM. That's a pretty huge leap from just having doubts about them. So yes, I would absolutely compare that kind of intolerance to Japanese internment camps, as the U.S. disowned Japanese citizens because of where they came from (as Mad Jack stated he would do to any LUCOM student regardless of their situation/beliefs). Both situations are intolerance, and imo both are despicable, even if they aren't on the same scale.

Also, the general trend I've seen here of fighting intolerance with further intolerance is just asinine. I'm not saying to automatically accept a LUCOM student as perfect, but I will give them the same respect I give any other individual until they give me reason not to. Using prejudice and intolerance as a baseline to judge people based on ridiculous generalizations has never solved anyone's problems, and I highly doubt it will be the method that solves this one.
 
If I had to guess, I'd say that most current students at LUCOM had no other option as to where to attend medical school. It was either LUCOM or not become a doctor (or reapply, I guess). What the parent university believes in is outrageous. However, I don't blame their students for committing to their only option of fulfilling their dream.
 
edgerock24 said:
If I had to guess, I'd say that most current students at LUCOM had no other option as to where to attend medical school. It was either LUCOM or not become a doctor (or reapply, I guess). What the parent university believes in is outrageous. However, I don't blame their students for committing to their only option of fulfilling their dream.
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and in the end they made the best out of a bad situation. They chose to be doctors, but not at the best school ever.
 
darklabel said:
FL really REALLY doesn't need another medical school. We're already having issues with the limited number of residency spots compared to medical school grads.
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With the way things are going, it's only a matter of time before Ave Maria starts making noise about opening a COCA school.
 
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