Is the Caribbean my only possible route now?

[DrStephenStrange]

Can someone walk me through the thought process of taking the MCAT 3-6 times? It always amazes me when I read about this. I took it once, did poorly, somehow still got into med school, and maybe would consider retaking the exam once more. After that, I would call it.

Well, my thought process was since English is already my 3rd laguange which causes me to struggle with reading/comprehension speed, I'm already at a disadvantage. With 3 bad scores, I really didn't have anything more to lose taking it again, so I could either study and practice hard for another 3 months and spend 300 dollars or I can kiss my dreams good bye. I did and scored a 500, which got me in, and I'm doing well so far in med school. One of the faculty that reviewed my application actually told me that he admired the fact that I never give up, so...

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[Calizboosted76]

What do adcoms here think of going to medical school through the Ochsner system? @gyngyn @Goro @LizzyM

One of the ED docs I work with went that route. She's practicing in Florida.

 

[olabrador23]

Can someone walk me through the thought process of taking the MCAT 3-6 times? It always amazes me when I read about this. I took it once, did poorly, somehow still got into med school, and maybe would consider retaking the exam once more. After that, I would call it.

the devil is all in the details. If you wanted to compare your situation to the OP's, you would probably need to give us more details (e.g. how "poor" is your MCAT? what is your background, URM / ORM? GPA? EC? age? schools you went to (undergrad) and applied for (med) and how many? etc.

Then I might agree with your statement, "it always amazes me...", there

 

[gyngyn]

What do adcoms here think of going to medical school through the Ochsner system? @gyngyn @Goro @LizzyM

Sorry, I am not familiar with this. What is it?

 

[Kardio]

Sorry, I am not familiar with this. What is it?

UQ-Ochsner is a partnership between Ochsner Health Systems (in Louisiana) and University of Queensland (school in Australia). It is a ‘reputable’ international school - a special tract within University of Queensland MD school designed for Americans.

Years 1 and 2 in Australia (at UQ). Years 3 and 4 in US (at Ochsner).

They post an average of around 3.3, 508 and 90-95% US placement. They also never replied to my email asking about attrition.

 

[el_duderino]

They seem to lose a couple per class. Smaller class sizes. The students seem to do pretty well. Not a lot of matches into the highest end specialties or most elite programs, but they do fine. They seem to enjoy being in Australia quote a bit. I didn't realize it but apparently UQ is a really top quality med school. Annoying thing is that you have to learn all the Australian guidelines, terminology, and units in addittion to the American stuff.

 

[993444]

They seem to lose a couple per class. Smaller class sizes. The students seem to do pretty well. Not a lot of matches into the highest end specialties or most elite programs, but they do fine. They seem to enjoy being in Australia quote a bit. I didn't realize it but apparently UQ is a really top quality med school. Annoying thing is that you have to learn all the Australian guidelines, terminology, and units in addition to the American stuff.

But because half their education is done in Australia, and the other half is done in America, they don't get the good of either worlds. The Australian medical system won't let them easily practice there. And all residencies here will consider their graduates to be US IMG's.

Australia actually has a doctor surplus because their population is extremely low (<25 million), fueled in part by all the British doctors trying to transfer there because they hate the NHS.

 

[993444]

Sorry, I am not familiar with this. What is it?

UQ-Ochsner is a partnership between Ochsner Health Systems (in Louisiana) and University of Queensland (school in Australia). It is a ‘reputable’ international school - a special tract within University of Queensland MD school designed for Americans.

Years 1 and 2 in Australia (at UQ). Years 3 and 4 in US (at Ochsner).

They post an average of around 3.3, 508 and 90-95% US placement. They also never replied to my email asking about attrition.

Here is the website @gyngyn :

Ochsner Education

The Ochsner Education Division provides connections between local universities and healthcare system.

education.ochsner.org

Please do let us know your opinion.

 

[gyngyn]

Here is the website @gyngyn :

Ochsner Education

The Ochsner Education Division provides connections between local universities and healthcare system.

education.ochsner.org

Please do let us know your opinion.

If we could determine the size of the entering class, I could do a better assessment.
Their Match list looks like what I would expect an established DO school.

 

[993444]

If we could determine the size of the entering class, I could do a better assessment.
Their Match list looks like what I would expect an established DO school.

Here is more information on the class size:

About the UQ-Ochsner Program – Ochsner Medical Student Association

 

[gyngyn]

Here is more information on the class size:

About the UQ-Ochsner Program – Ochsner Medical Student Association

If the denominator is about 120 and the match list has 68 categorical matches (5 surg prelims), then the effective attrition is 43%...
That is comparable to St. Georges and Ross (as best we can estimate).

 

[deleted92121]

OP:

Look, read my past threads. Everything fell apart for me when grade replacement went away, or so I thought. My cGPA and sGPA tanked. I’m talking sub 2.5. It’s taken 80+ credits including halfway through my SMP at a DO program to even get to a cGPA above 2.5 and a sGPA near 2.7. What chance do I have, right?

The answer is I have tons of opportunity.

I can’t fix my GPA. But I don’t need to. I need to show me now =/= me then. But it’s all on me.

If you want this, no excuses. Nobody wants to hear about how the med students did in the same class you took. They want to know how YOU did. Aim for another SMP or post-bacc or do whatever you have to do so you can gain a seat in med school. All the best.

 

[Kardio]

If the denominator is about 120 and the match list has 68 categorical matches (5 surg prelims), then the effective attrition is 43%...
That is comparable to St. Georges and Ross (as best we can estimate).

Yeah - that doesn’t look pretty. I would actually guess that the change in class size from year-to-year accounts for that. Intentionally or not, the data is unclear.

To me, it was a big enough red flag to not have receive a response to my email asking for clarification on:

1. The 4 and 5 year graduation + attrition rates
2. Their overall placement into ACGME residencies (Match + SOAP + scramble)

 

[gyngyn]

Yeah - that doesn’t look pretty. I would actually guess that the change in class size from year-to-year accounts for that. Intentionally or not, the data is unclear.

To me, it was a big enough red flag to not have receive a response to my email asking for clarification on:

1. The 4 and 5 year graduation + attrition rates
2. Their overall placement into ACGME residencies (Match + SOAP + scramble)

We have no way of knowing since they take care not to share real data.
The fact that they choose to obfuscate (just like the Caribbean schools) should give one pause.

 

[olabrador23]

We have no way of knowing since they take care not to share real data.
The fact that they choose to obfuscate (just like the Caribbean schools) should give one pause.

I see this as a better alternative to Carib med schools as Australia is at least, better than Caribbeans in terms of everything imho.

the high attrition rate is probably due more to less quality students who do not belong there go there than anything else (my guess) as the school is a reputable med school in Australia...

 

[Goro]

I see this as a better alternative to Carib med schools as Australia is at least, better than Caribbeans in terms of everything imho.

the high attrition rate is probably due more to less quality students who do not belong there go there than anything else (my guess) as the school is a reputable med school in Australia...

If they are so reputable, why are they taking in so many unqualified students?

 

[Aslanim]

If they are so reputable, why are they taking in so many unqualified students?

What are you talking about? UQ-Ochsner's incoming class has an MCAT average of 508 and Bachelor's GPA of 3.39.

2019 Cohort Demographics - UQ Ochsner

 

[Goro]

What are you talking about? UQ-Ochsner's incoming class has an MCAT average of 508 and Bachelor's GPA of 3.39.

2019 Cohort Demographics - UQ Ochsner

Why are they losing so many students????

 

[Aslanim]

Why are they losing so many students????

I dunno.
If I were to guess I would say that maybe the Australian curriculum doesn't align too well with the American one, leading students to not being able to pass Step 1 on time --> delayed graduation + higher attrition.

 

[olabrador23]

If they are so reputable, why are they taking in so many unqualified students?

I cannot recall where exactly now... just remember reading here that there is currently a surplus of medical doctors in Australia. So my guess is that would lead to low employment / low pay --> low med school enrollment / application --> low tuition money / revenue for those med schools. So it is logical that those schools either have to reduce in size or close shops, or find other ways to enroll more students / expand their classes to make money to stay in business.

What are you talking about? UQ-Ochsner's incoming class has an MCAT average of 508 and Bachelor's GPA of 3.39.

2019 Cohort Demographics - UQ Ochsner

Why are they losing so many students????

I dunno.
If I were to guess I would say that maybe the Australian curriculum doesn't align too well with the American one, leading students to not being able to pass Step 1 on time --> delayed graduation + higher attrition.

The stats of their incoming class as @AslanMacit has pointed there are probably comparable to many US DO schools. But we see lower attrition rate for US schools vs Australian schools there. From what I have read, and @Goro or @gyngyn can correct me if I am wrong, there are better "support" systems for US students in US med schools. Student are given chances to retake exams to pass classes (even USMLE USMLE - I finally passed! after failing 3 times). So that would result in lower attrition or higher USMLE pass rate. US students would also have easier time to match into US residencies, thus would yield better match numbers (@gyngyn).

We do not know if the Australian med school here is giving their (US) students the same "support" system like many US schools are. But again, my guess is that they are not. Their grads coming back to the US for residency are IMGs, who are already not preferred by PDs, even if having high Step scores, let alone having the chance to fail and retake the USMLE multiple times the way US students do and match into residencies, which would certainly lower the match numbers and increase "attrition" numbers even more.

So imho, it is not that their program is not a quality one. The low / bad numbers are probably just due to inherent biases in their program vs US and US residency selection. I agree with @AslanMacit there.

Anyway, it looks like their attrition rate (per @gyngyn) is 43% which is better than many top Caribbean schools (~60-70% from what I have read). Again, it is only my opinion that this is still one of the better ways to do med school oversea vs the Caribbean given all possible considerations.

 

[ZhivagoMD]

Caribbean grads have a little over 50% match rate. Might as well go put 250K on black at the casino

The only bet that's higher risk than the Caribbean is betting black... always throw red homie.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

But because half their education is done in Australia, and the other half is done in America, they don't get the good of either worlds. The Australian medical system won't let them easily practice there. And all residencies here will consider their graduates to be US IMG's.

Australia actually has a doctor surplus because their population is extremely low (<25 million), fueled in part by all the British doctors trying to transfer there because they hate the NHS.

I dont know about the doctor surplus. I was in Australia not long ago. At the time we were in Cairnes, where the Great Reef is, and a piece on the news stated about 70 % of doctors there were "Fly In " doctors from agencies. Cairnes is a tropical paradise, similar to Hawaii. They were disappointed GP salaries of 185k Australian could not attract full time doctors. That's about 150k US.

 

[Nugester]

I dont know about the doctor surplus. I was in Australia not long ago. At the time we were in Cairnes, where the Great Reef is, and a piece on the news stated about 70 % of doctors there were "Fly In " doctors from agencies. Cairnes is a tropical paradise, similar to Hawaii. They were disappointed GP salaries of 185k Australian could not attract full time doctors. That's about 150k US.

That salary seems pretty darn good to me!

 

[DrStephenStrange]

That salary seems pretty darn good to me!

Lol

 

[olabrador23]

I dont know about the doctor surplus. I was in Australia not long ago. At the time we were in Cairnes, where the Great Reef is, and a piece on the news stated about 70 % of doctors there were "Fly In " doctors from agencies. Cairnes is a tropical paradise, similar to Hawaii. They were disappointed GP salaries of 185k Australian could not attract full time doctors. That's about 150k US.

It sounds like you do not think there is a surplus of doctors in Australia. I think what you are describing there is actually the classic problem of maldistribution, not a shortage. (But wow, Cairnes, Great Reef, tropical paradise, got it )

I was curious. So to settle, I did some Google search and found these,

Doctor shortage leaving Australia's rural areas 'in crisis'
A shortage of doctors in remote and regional centres is leaving some Australians without access to immediate medical care.
Updated 09/02/2019 By Rhiannon Elston

Doctor shortage leaving Australia's rural areas 'in crisis'

A shortage of doctors in remote and regional centres is leaving some Australians without access to immediate medical care.

www.sbs.com.au

Why is there an oversupply of doctors in Australia but a shortage of General Practitioners?
in Working in Australia and New Zealand by Ruby Wilson March 22, 2018

Search 2000+ Doctor Locum and Permanent Jobs

A medical recruitment agency helping doctors find better permanent and locum jobs. We’re preferred by hospitals and GP clinics across Australia and New Zealand.

www.medrecruit.com

The statement “we have plenty of doctors in Australia” would probably not pass the pub test. Especially if the pub was in a regional city, a remote town or a less-than-leafy suburb. But it is true all the same - statistically at least.

With 3.5 practising doctors for every 1,000 people in 2014 (4.4 per 1,000 in major cities) we’ve never had so many. In 2003, there were 2.6 doctors for every 1,000 people in Australia, which is closer to the proportion in similar countries now, such as New Zealand (2.8), the UK (2.8), Canada (2.6) and the USA (2.6).

Yet at 2.6 per 1,000 was when we decided we were “short” and went on to double the number of medical schools and almost triple the number of medical graduates in a little over a decade.

And then there’s this question: if we are now so flush with medicos, why do we still need to import so many from overseas? To fill job vacancies, the Australian government granted 2,820 temporary work visas to overseas-trained doctors in 2014-15. In the same year, Australian medical schools graduated another 3,547.

This heroic level of doctor production and importation is right up there internationally. Among wealthy nations, Australia is vying for the top spot, with only Denmark and Ireland in the same league of doctor-production for population.

So why do we have too many doctors, but think we have too few?

Forecast oversupply of doctors to hit this year amid calls to halt imports
By Anna Patty January 5, 2017 — 2.00pm

Forecast oversupply of doctors to hit this year amid calls to halt imports

An oversupply of doctors is expected to emerge in Australia this year prompting the federal department of health to call for the importation of overseas medicos to stop.

www.smh.com.au

Review of Australian Government Health Workforce Programs
Appendix ii: Health Workforce 2025 - summary
Page last updated: 24 May 2013

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/work-review-australian-government-health-workforce-programs-toc~appendices~appendix-ii-health-workforce-2025-summary

"This appendix does not seek to summarise the HWA conclusions in their entirety. However, some relevant observations are as follows:

• Transformation of health policy settings is required for health services to be sustainable since the comparison (“do nothing”) scenario shows that there will be a continued geographic maldistribution of doctors and a very significant shortage of nurses by 2025."

The Supply of Doctors in Australia: Is There A Shortage?
Abhaya Kamalakanthan & Sukhan Jackson.
Discussion Paper No. 341 , May 2006, School of Economics, The University of Queensland, Queensland

http://www.uq.edu.au/economics/abstract/341.pdf

Rural doctor shortage will not be solved by overseas doctors, GPs tell Federal Government
ABC Mid West & Wheatbelt By Laura Meachim
Posted 14 Mar 2019, 3:22pm

Overseas doctors not the answer to regional shortfall, GPs say

Medical professionals say more work needs to be done to incentivise the regions for locally trained doctors, rather than relying on foreign GPs to fill the gaps.

www.abc.net.au

The future of Australia's doctors
A new report investigates the future of Australia’s medical workforce and finds a number of pressures, like increasing costs and digital disruption, are changing the way doctors deliver care to patients
By Professor Anthony Scott, University of Melbourne
First published on 19 May 2019 in Health & Wellbeing

The future of Australia's doctors

A University of Melbourne report finds new pressures, like digital disruption and increasing costs, are changing the way doctors deliver care to patients.

pursuit.unimelb.edu.au

THE PRESSURE OF COMPETITION
Doctors are a major part of the health system and play a key role in delivering high-value healthcare. The diagnoses they make and the treatments they recommend directly influence costs, quality and health outcomes, as well as driving other areas of spending like pharmaceuticals and hospitals.

But doctors are also facing a number of trends and challenges that are influencing the way they work, where they work and the care they provide.

The first challenge is the increase in the number of doctors – the number of medical graduates has more than doubled from around 1,400 in 2000 to 3,500 now.

As a result, the number of junior doctors has increased by an average of 8.9 per cent per year since 2005, and the overall growth in the total number of doctors is sitting at 5.3 per cent per year.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

It sounds like you do not think there is a surplus of doctors in Australia. I think what you are describing there is actually the classic problem of maldistribution, not a shortage. (But wow, Cairnes, Great Reef, tropical paradise, got it )

I was curious. So to settle, I did some Google search and found these,

Doctor shortage leaving Australia's rural areas 'in crisis'
A shortage of doctors in remote and regional centres is leaving some Australians without access to immediate medical care.
Updated 09/02/2019 By Rhiannon Elston

Doctor shortage leaving Australia's rural areas 'in crisis'

A shortage of doctors in remote and regional centres is leaving some Australians without access to immediate medical care.

www.sbs.com.au

Why is there an oversupply of doctors in Australia but a shortage of General Practitioners?
in Working in Australia and New Zealand by Ruby Wilson March 22, 2018

Search 2000+ Doctor Locum and Permanent Jobs

A medical recruitment agency helping doctors find better permanent and locum jobs. We’re preferred by hospitals and GP clinics across Australia and New Zealand.

www.medrecruit.com

The statement “we have plenty of doctors in Australia” would probably not pass the pub test. Especially if the pub was in a regional city, a remote town or a less-than-leafy suburb. But it is true all the same - statistically at least.

With 3.5 practising doctors for every 1,000 people in 2014 (4.4 per 1,000 in major cities) we’ve never had so many. In 2003, there were 2.6 doctors for every 1,000 people in Australia, which is closer to the proportion in similar countries now, such as New Zealand (2.8), the UK (2.8), Canada (2.6) and the USA (2.6).

Yet at 2.6 per 1,000 was when we decided we were “short” and went on to double the number of medical schools and almost triple the number of medical graduates in a little over a decade.

And then there’s this question: if we are now so flush with medicos, why do we still need to import so many from overseas? To fill job vacancies, the Australian government granted 2,820 temporary work visas to overseas-trained doctors in 2014-15. In the same year, Australian medical schools graduated another 3,547.

This heroic level of doctor production and importation is right up there internationally. Among wealthy nations, Australia is vying for the top spot, with only Denmark and Ireland in the same league of doctor-production for population.

So why do we have too many doctors, but think we have too few?

Forecast oversupply of doctors to hit this year amid calls to halt imports
By Anna Patty January 5, 2017 — 2.00pm

Forecast oversupply of doctors to hit this year amid calls to halt imports

An oversupply of doctors is expected to emerge in Australia this year prompting the federal department of health to call for the importation of overseas medicos to stop.

www.smh.com.au

Review of Australian Government Health Workforce Programs
Appendix ii: Health Workforce 2025 - summary
Page last updated: 24 May 2013

https://www1.health.gov.au/internet/publications/publishing.nsf/Content/work-review-australian-government-health-workforce-programs-toc~appendices~appendix-ii-health-workforce-2025-summary

"This appendix does not seek to summarise the HWA conclusions in their entirety. However, some relevant observations are as follows:

• Transformation of health policy settings is required for health services to be sustainable since the comparison (“do nothing”) scenario shows that there will be a continued geographic maldistribution of doctors and a very significant shortage of nurses by 2025."

The Supply of Doctors in Australia: Is There A Shortage?
Abhaya Kamalakanthan & Sukhan Jackson.
Discussion Paper No. 341 , May 2006, School of Economics, The University of Queensland, Queensland

http://www.uq.edu.au/economics/abstract/341.pdf

Rural doctor shortage will not be solved by overseas doctors, GPs tell Federal Government
ABC Mid West & Wheatbelt By Laura Meachim
Posted 14 Mar 2019, 3:22pm

Overseas doctors not the answer to regional shortfall, GPs say

Medical professionals say more work needs to be done to incentivise the regions for locally trained doctors, rather than relying on foreign GPs to fill the gaps.

www.abc.net.au

The future of Australia's doctors
A new report investigates the future of Australia’s medical workforce and finds a number of pressures, like increasing costs and digital disruption, are changing the way doctors deliver care to patients
By Professor Anthony Scott, University of Melbourne
First published on 19 May 2019 in Health & Wellbeing

The future of Australia's doctors

A University of Melbourne report finds new pressures, like digital disruption and increasing costs, are changing the way doctors deliver care to patients.

pursuit.unimelb.edu.au

THE PRESSURE OF COMPETITION
Doctors are a major part of the health system and play a key role in delivering high-value healthcare. The diagnoses they make and the treatments they recommend directly influence costs, quality and health outcomes, as well as driving other areas of spending like pharmaceuticals and hospitals.

But doctors are also facing a number of trends and challenges that are influencing the way they work, where they work and the care they provide.

The first challenge is the increase in the number of doctors – the number of medical graduates has more than doubled from around 1,400 in 2000 to 3,500 now.

As a result, the number of junior doctors has increased by an average of 8.9 per cent per year since 2005, and the overall growth in the total number of doctors is sitting at 5.3 per cent per year.

Looks like a maldistributuon. Obviously they are flying in doctors to paradise because salaries aren't high enough. This is the natural history of centralized healthcare, be it govt or corporate. Australia has a higher cost of living and taxes. 185k is not enough. If I were a young primary care doc, Cairnes would be a great place to live for a year or 2 doing Locums.

 

[olabrador23]

Looks like a maldistributuon. Obviously they are flying in doctors to paradise because salaries aren't high enough. This is the natural history of centralized healthcare, be it govt or corporate. Australia has a higher cost of living and taxes. 185k is not enough. If I were a young primary care doc, Cairnes would be a great place to live for a year or 2 doing Locums.

yeah, I am only saying that those you are saying above also support my "theory" (to answer @Goro 's question above) of why we are seeing a reputable Australian medical school like the University of Queensland SOM (partnering up with Ochsner Health System UQ Ochsner - Preparing Global Leaders in Medicine) to cater to US students who did not get in US med schools. Australia does have both a surplus and maldistribution of doctors.

 

[DOnutsfordonuts]

You made a post about applying DO 2 years ago and the best advice was do an SMP. You did and you failed to prove yourself. There is no chance you could handle medical school based off your academic history much less jump through Caribbean's hoops. Save yourself some debt and think about a new profession.

 

[katiedew]

If the denominator is about 120 and the match list has 68 categorical matches (5 surg prelims), then the effective attrition is 43%...
That is comparable to St. Georges and Ross (as best we can estimate).

I emailed UQ Ochsner about the attrition rate and they stated that the overall attrition rate is 8%.

 

[Goro]

I emailed them about the attrition rate and they stated that the overall attrition rate is 8%.

They're lying.

 

[el_duderino]

They're lying.

Apparently a good few decide to stay in Australia. I don't know that you can say that without more thorough data.

 

[olabrador23]

They're lying.

they might. It probably depends on how they define "overall attrition".

Apparently a good few decide to stay in Australia. I don't know that you can say that without more thorough data.

agreed.

on the other hand, there is no transparency (at least I could see) in their data either.

 

[LebronManning]

US MD student here. I would never ever encourage someone to go to SGU (carib) unless its their only option, but I cant stand when people post about the topic while not knowing the facts. We need to stop propagating misinformation.

Personally, I have a unique perspective because I know several people older than me who've gone to SGU with varying outcomes. The kids that failed were the ones who tried hardest in college but could never do well on MCAT and they simply didn't have the aptitude and didn't change their learning habits when they got there. They were both failed out by the end of their 2nd semester and so only went down about 80k or so, but hey they got their chance. The other 3 all matched well (2 Academic IM, 1 gen surg). These were students who were intelligent enough to succeed at a US med school (510+ mcats) but for whatever reason slacked off in college/partied and had low enough GPAs that they could not get into MD school here for sure and would have to have a lot of post bac to even have a chance at DO. They went to SGU with a different mindset then college and literally killed it (2/3 had step 1 above 255, the other was 240ish). For them, it was a good decision. For the former 2, sure it was a bad decision, but these people weren't meant to be physicians anyway. The difference is that US schools wouldn't have taken them knowing that and SGU did giving them a chance. Some fail that chance, and some use it as a blessing to the top like the latter 3. So that's why I don't carry the hate toward carib (specifically SGU), that so many do here. Sure, its a system that profits, but its also a system that gives several talented people that had youthful indiscretions in college a chance to be successful physicians.

Caribbean grads have a little over 50% match rate. Might as well go put 250K on black at the casino

The match rate is 93%, not 50. Sure, that's after about 30% attrition mostly in the first year. That's the whole damn point of a second chance med school though. You got a chance, and if you fail, well that's that. If you get through, you have a 93% chance of matching which is on par with most DO schools. Your point about comparing it to a casino is very bad; gambling is based on dumb luck, studying medicine and performing well is not. Also, its only a big figure like 250k if you finish the 4 year degree at which point you have a 93% chance..

50% after they have lost about 30% of their class. So it's more like 35% chance of succeeding.

*93%*, not 50. after losing about 30% mostly in 1st year. So more like 65% using your logic, but my point is that it's really not as simple as assigning a percentage. The chance is completely fluid based on how hard you work and the reasons you had to go there over a US school.

This is even more accurate OP^

...

 

[Goro]

Apparently a good few decide to stay in Australia. I don't know that you can say that without more thorough data.

My apologies...I thought that particular post was about SGU, not the Aussie school.

What's with the name change???

 

[olabrador23]

US MD student here. I would never ever encourage someone to go to SGU (carib) unless its their only option, but I cant stand when people post about the topic while not knowing the facts. We need to stop propagating misinformation.

Personally, I have a unique perspective because I know several people older than me who've gone to SGU with varying outcomes. The kids that failed were the ones who tried hardest in college but could never do well on MCAT and they simply didn't have the aptitude and didn't change their learning habits when they got there. They were both failed out by the end of their 2nd semester and so only went down about 80k or so, but hey they got their chance. The other 3 all matched well (2 Academic IM, 1 gen surg). These were students who were intelligent enough to succeed at a US med school (510+ mcats) but for whatever reason slacked off in college/partied and had low enough GPAs that they could not get into MD school here for sure and would have to have a lot of post bac to even have a chance at DO. They went to SGU with a different mindset then college and literally killed it (2/3 had step 1 above 255, the other was 240ish). For them, it was a good decision. For the former 2, sure it was a bad decision, but these people weren't meant to be physicians anyway. The difference is that US schools wouldn't have taken them knowing that and SGU did giving them a chance. Some fail that chance, and some use it as a blessing to the top like the latter 3. So that's why I don't carry the hate toward carib (specifically SGU), that so many do here. Sure, its a system that profits, but its also a system that gives several talented people that had youthful indiscretions in college a chance to be successful physicians.


The match rate is 93%, not 50. Sure, that's after about 30% attrition mostly in the first year. That's the whole damn point of a second chance med school though. You got a chance, and if you fail, well that's that. If you get through, you have a 93% chance of matching which is on par with most DO schools. Your point about comparing it to a casino is very bad; gambling is based on dumb luck, studying medicine and performing well is not.



*93%*, not 50. after losing about 30% mostly in 1st year. So more like 65% using your logic, but my point is that it's really not as simple as assigning a percentage. The chance is completely fluid based on how hard you work and the reasons you had to go there over a US school.


...

one of the best posts on second chance med schools like Carib imho! My thumbs up!

 

[Isoval]

US MD student here. I would never ever encourage someone to go to SGU (carib) unless its their only option, but I cant stand when people post about the topic while not knowing the facts. We need to stop propagating misinformation.

Personally, I have a unique perspective because I know several people older than me who've gone to SGU with varying outcomes. The kids that failed were the ones who tried hardest in college but could never do well on MCAT and they simply didn't have the aptitude and didn't change their learning habits when they got there. They were both failed out by the end of their 2nd semester and so only went down about 80k or so, but hey they got their chance. The other 3 all matched well (2 Academic IM, 1 gen surg). These were students who were intelligent enough to succeed at a US med school (510+ mcats) but for whatever reason slacked off in college/partied and had low enough GPAs that they could not get into MD school here for sure and would have to have a lot of post bac to even have a chance at DO. They went to SGU with a different mindset then college and literally killed it (2/3 had step 1 above 255, the other was 240ish). For them, it was a good decision. For the former 2, sure it was a bad decision, but these people weren't meant to be physicians anyway. The difference is that US schools wouldn't have taken them knowing that and SGU did giving them a chance. Some fail that chance, and some use it as a blessing to the top like the latter 3. So that's why I don't carry the hate toward carib (specifically SGU), that so many do here. Sure, its a system that profits, but its also a system that gives several talented people that had youthful indiscretions in college a chance to be successful physicians.


The match rate is 93%, not 50. Sure, that's after about 30% attrition mostly in the first year. That's the whole damn point of a second chance med school though. You got a chance, and if you fail, well that's that. If you get through, you have a 93% chance of matching which is on par with most DO schools. Your point about comparing it to a casino is very bad; gambling is based on dumb luck, studying medicine and performing well is not. Also, its only a big figure like 250k if you finish the 4 year degree at which point you have a 93% chance..



*93%*, not 50. after losing about 30% mostly in 1st year. So more like 65% using your logic, but my point is that it's really not as simple as assigning a percentage. The chance is completely fluid based on how hard you work and the reasons you had to go there over a US school.


...

I appreciate your perspective and it’s a nice fresh look at Caribbean schools.

But...

The match rate of most DO schools - and of most US schools, period - is over 93%. If we took their 93% match rate as an individual school in the US, they would most certainly be in the bottom quarter of US schools, if not in the bottom 10%. Additionally, the Caribbean schools match a lot of people to preliminary or transitional year residencies. Far more than most schools in the US. Although these spots are essentially matching, those students will almost certainly be put through the match again.

This is also assuming we take their 93% match rate at face value, which isn’t necessarily true, either. Many Caribbean schools will include matches from years-past (e.g. someone who didn’t match last year that did match this year) in their match report and does not factor in the roughly 30-40% attrition rate of the schools as @DrStephenStrange pointed out.

Notwithstanding, I do generally agree with your stance on Caribbean schools.

 

[BuildingMyOwnLuck]

The exams were over the course of a few years. Initially, I mainly relied on the books by Kaplan and Examkrackers, but this time most recent time I incorporated Khan Academy (videos + practice questions) and Anki into my preparation. I also took notes on the stuff I'd get wrong or couldn't remember completely.

I feel like it's not your intelligence level but more so the horrendous study methods that bring your GPA down OP. It took you 4 tries to realize that reviewing things you got wrong to not get them wrong can be useful? Did you even do any FLs? If you do pursue further education, please take some time to learn the proper way to study

 

[Deecee2DO]

I appreciate your perspective and it’s a nice fresh look at Caribbean schools.

But...

The match rate of most DO schools - and of most US schools, period - is over 93%. If we took their 93% match rate as an individual school in the US, they would most certainly be in the bottom quarter of US schools, if not in the bottom 10%. Additionally, the Caribbean schools match a lot of people to preliminary or transitional year residencies. Far more than most schools in the US. Although these spots are essentially matching, those students will almost certainly be put through the match again.

This is also assuming we take their 93% match rate at face value, which isn’t necessarily true, either. Many Caribbean schools will include matches from years-past (e.g. someone who didn’t match last year that did match this year) in their match report and does not factor in the roughly 30-40% attrition rate of the schools as @DrStephenStrange pointed out.

Notwithstanding, I do generally agree with your stance on Caribbean schools.

Match rate for DO school is above 93%? I knew placement rate was but I think match rate for DO is like in the mid 80s or something before SOAPing and all that-still far better than Carrib, but i think its less than 93% which is the avg match rate for MD. I always did wonder how Carrib websites got their 93% match rates-nice perspective

 

[Isoval]

Match rate for DO school is above 93%? Placement rate is but I think match rate for DO is like in the mid 80s or something before SOAPing and all that-still far better than Carrib, but i think its less than 93% which is the avg match rate for MD

Of ACGME only is in the 80s, but that considers the AOA which pulls DO students out of ACGME. If we consider both simultaneously, most schools are well into the 90s. For example, my school alone is 99.3%.

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

OP:

Look, read my past threads. Everything fell apart for me when grade replacement went away, or so I thought. My cGPA and sGPA tanked. I’m talking sub 2.5. It’s taken 80+ credits including halfway through my SMP at a DO program to even get to a cGPA above 2.5 and a sGPA near 2.7. What chance do I have, right?

The answer is I have tons of opportunity.

I can’t fix my GPA. But I don’t need to. I need to show me now =/= me then. But it’s all on me.

If you want this, no excuses. Nobody wants to hear about how the med students did in the same class you took. They want to know how YOU did. Aim for another SMP or post-bacc or do whatever you have to do so you can gain a seat in med school. All the best.

I'm not interested in medicine but love reading these forums. In the US there are programs where you do a special course-based masters and then you're basically guaranteed a spot in med school? That's crazy

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I'm not interested in medicine but love reading these forums. In the US there are programs where you do a special course-based masters and then you're basically guaranteed a spot in med school? That's crazy

That's correct. It's called a Post Bac program with linkage to the medical school. You must first apply and get accepted. It is basically med school lite. If you meet their grade requirements during the program, usually around 3.3 to 3.5, then you are enrolled in next years class. Our PhDs love post bac students. They do very well.

 

[CanadatoUS2019]

That's correct. It's called a Post Bac program with linkage to the medical school. You must first apply and get accepted. It is basically med school lite. If you meet their grade requirements during the program, usually around 3.3 to 3.5, then you are enrolled in next years class. Our PhDs love post bac students. They do very well.

Well I think that is a really interesting and unique opportunity. I'm guessing the SMP's are not as competitive to get into as medical school? But I assume not everyone who enters into the SMP gets good enough grades to continue on. Do you know what that percentage is?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Well I think that is a really interesting and unique opportunity. I'm guessing the SMP's are not as competitive to get into as medical school? But I assume not everyone who enters into the SMP gets good enough grades to continue on. Do you know what that percentage is?

Varies. Some like Temple have a grade requirement ,like 3.6 I think and also you have to take the mcat after the program and meet that threshold. I am unaware of the exact number. Others just have GPA requirement in their program as I stated above. I just endorsed a chem major with a 3.7 for post bac and they were sadly unable to meet their threshold . It's a ton of work. I am aware of some who have been highly committed during post bac and successfully matched.

 

[piotrkol1]

And your friend is of the 50% IMGs who actually match. Those odds kinda suck to me. (And everyone who goes carib thinks they will be that success story)

Well just because only 50% of all international graduates match, I dont think that automatically means that SGU themselves has a 50% match rate (I'm talking about people who actually go through the match). Furthermore, why would you go down there with the mindset that you don't think its gonna work out?

All that to tell you to work harder, don't sell yourself short because of something someone says on SDN, and be motivated.

Yes, there's a lot of noise here. Honest, realistic advice is fine, but some of these replies are over the top. You'd think by reading them that I have a 2.0 GPA, 490 MCAT, and failed every class in the SMP. I'm active on another forum, Airliners.net, and over there they also have people who think they should be running the airline industry. If you think I'm gonna give up and become a nurse just because of some big talker on SDN - you're sadly mistaken!

how many people were chosen into RFU from the BMS?

I don't remember the specific number, but every year it was usually always between 50-65%.

I feel like it's not your intelligence level but more so the horrendous study methods that bring your GPA down OP. It took you 4 tries to realize that reviewing things you got wrong to not get them wrong can be useful? Did you even do any FLs?

Well obviously going through the SMP helped since they go more in depth with stuff than the MCAT requires. It's not like I didn't review the stuff I got wrong, more so that the KA videos presented things a different way that made me understand better. And no, I never did a FL.

 

[ciestar]

Well just because only 50% of all international graduates match, I dont think that automatically means that SGU themselves has a 50% match rate (I'm talking about people who actually go through the match). Furthermore, why would you go down there with the mindset that you don't think its gonna work out?


Yes, there's a lot of noise here. Honest, realistic advice is fine, but some of these replies are over the top. You'd think by reading them that I have a 2.0 GPA, 490 MCAT, and failed every class in the SMP. I'm active on another forum, Airliners.net, and over there they also have people who think they should be running the airline industry. If you think I'm gonna give up and become a nurse just because of some big talker on SDN - you're sadly mistaken!


I don't remember the specific number, but every year it was usually always between 50-65%.


Well obviously going through the SMP helped since they go more in depth with stuff than the MCAT requires. It's not like I didn't review the stuff I got wrong, more so that the KA videos presented things a different way that made me understand better. And no, I never did a FL.

Im a natural skeptic. But i cannot say what id do in a situation like that. Furthermore, Id never go carib, ever. If that meant not being a doctor, so be it.

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

US MD student here. I would never ever encourage someone to go to SGU (carib) unless its their only option, but I cant stand when people post about the topic while not knowing the facts. We need to stop propagating misinformation.

Personally, I have a unique perspective because I know several people older than me who've gone to SGU with varying outcomes. The kids that failed were the ones who tried hardest in college but could never do well on MCAT and they simply didn't have the aptitude and didn't change their learning habits when they got there. They were both failed out by the end of their 2nd semester and so only went down about 80k or so, but hey they got their chance. The other 3 all matched well (2 Academic IM, 1 gen surg). These were students who were intelligent enough to succeed at a US med school (510+ mcats) but for whatever reason slacked off in college/partied and had low enough GPAs that they could not get into MD school here for sure and would have to have a lot of post bac to even have a chance at DO. They went to SGU with a different mindset then college and literally killed it (2/3 had step 1 above 255, the other was 240ish). For them, it was a good decision. For the former 2, sure it was a bad decision, but these people weren't meant to be physicians anyway. The difference is that US schools wouldn't have taken them knowing that and SGU did giving them a chance. Some fail that chance, and some use it as a blessing to the top like the latter 3. So that's why I don't carry the hate toward carib (specifically SGU), that so many do here. Sure, its a system that profits, but its also a system that gives several talented people that had youthful indiscretions in college a chance to be successful physicians.


The match rate is 93%, not 50. Sure, that's after about 30% attrition mostly in the first year. That's the whole damn point of a second chance med school though. You got a chance, and if you fail, well that's that. If you get through, you have a 93% chance of matching which is on par with most DO schools. Your point about comparing it to a casino is very bad; gambling is based on dumb luck, studying medicine and performing well is not. Also, its only a big figure like 250k if you finish the 4 year degree at which point you have a 93% chance..



*93%*, not 50. after losing about 30% mostly in 1st year. So more like 65% using your logic, but my point is that it's really not as simple as assigning a percentage. The chance is completely fluid based on how hard you work and the reasons you had to go there over a US school.


...

This is incorrect. It is not 93% right off the bat. It is 93% several years after graduation.

With all the new DO schools popping up you have no excuse to go to a Carribean school. If you can’t get into one of the newer schools I would find another career.

 

[Goro]

Yes, there's a lot of noise here. Honest, realistic advice is fine, but some of these replies are over the top. You'd think by reading them that I have a 2.0 GPA, 490 MCAT, and failed every class in the SMP. I'm active on another forum, Airliners.net, and over there they also have people who think they should be running the airline industry. If you think I'm gonna give up and become a nurse just because of some big talker on SDN - you're sadly mistaken!

No, you didn't fail every class in the SMP, but you did poorly. This is a predictor that you will struggle in med school, and the business model of Carib schools is to get rid of students like you. US med schools would make every effort to get you to graduation. Since you're still serious about the Carib, try AUA. At least their faculty seem serious about medical education.

So, you've been warned, and good luck driving for Uber.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Of ACGME only is in the 80s, but that considers the AOA which pulls DO students out of ACGME. If we consider both simultaneously, most schools are well into the 90s. For example, my school alone is 99.3%.

Match rate for DO 2019 was about 85%. Placement rate is almost 100%. Most schools are well into the 90s for placement rate

 

[olabrador23]

No, you didn't fail every class in the SMP, but you did poorly. This is a predictor that you will struggle in med school, and the business model of Carib schools is to get rid of students like you. US med schools would make every effort to get you to graduation. Since you're still serious about the Carib, try AUA. At least their faculty seem serious about medical education.

So, you've been warned, and good luck driving for Uber.

AUA is the only recommendation for Carib?

 

[Calizboosted76]

AUA is the only recommendation for Carib?

I think this and SGU are the only ones that the physicians I worked with recommend to students who cant get into American schools. One of the physician's sons is actually at AUA. T