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IS THIS THE END OF OUR PROFESSION (LETS DISCUSS)
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jjcayce123
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tuition increases will eventually make people realize that pharmacy is not worth it. Changing the degree from a bachelors to a doctorate was a complete stupid load of BS. But its a great way for schools to charge more than double the tuition for the same f-ing degree. Eventually there will be a breaking point where it is simply not worth the debt. It has probably already surpassed that point.
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As long as student loans are easily accessible, students will keep borrowing as much as possible like there's no tomorrow.
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Last year, if you guys not noticed but most pharmacy schools extended their deadline till June usually deadline is in March. But due to low applications applied, they extended even though there is no seat for people that applied late in April, May and June. Then, they will send a letter telling you to apply again next year so that they can make more money. If there is no more seats then why extended deadline in first place.
More applications = more money = more profits
What a DIRTY way to make business. Pharmacy school is all about business. It's never been about healthcare or patients in the first place
More applications = more money = more profits
What a DIRTY way to make business. Pharmacy school is all about business. It's never been about healthcare or patients in the first place
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I think that was just their nice way of telling you that your 1.9 GPA was too low even for their low standards. I've seen some posts here from people who were accepted in May/June to pharmacy school thanks to the extended deadlines.
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The context of this post focuses on pharmacy schools and colleges: their admissions requirements and their matriculant statistics. Please read the post in its entirety before commenting and leave your gripes "at the door." Our profession does not need more stress.
I believe the poster of the phrase "pre-everything" refers to students that are undecided in the health sciences and have difficulty choosing a specific health profession program (or had a low undergraduate science GPA to being with). The prerequisites overlap among health professions programs (with some additional requirements in the mix); therefore, the student's major is irrelevant (unless the school requires a Bachelor of Science degree as a science major to apply). The programs within each facet (pharmacy, nursing, Physician Assistant MS, MD, DO) must be taken for admissions anyways and programs overlap in terms of those prerequisites.
The reference of 2.5 could refer to the science GPA minimum required for admission by most pharmacy schools, but some pharmacy schools require a 3.0 GPA prior to matriculation (University of California, Irvine for example). Furthermore, health professions matriculants around the United States have much higher averages than the 2.5 minimum Science GPA (range of about 3.0-4.0 across the board). Let's be real, here.
Some schools in Florida do have a 2.75 minimum science GPA as a requirement for consideration (USFCOP, for example) and a 65th percentile PCAT (preferred, not required). I think those numbers are very low compared to the 3.4-3.5 GPA average matriculant GPA of UNC Chapel Hill PharmD candidates (sustained since 2007) and 88th percentile average PCAT (2018). USFCOP only showed us the matriculant data for the Class of 2018 at our orientation and does not post such information on their website. If you doubt me on the numbers, click on the links below:
Admissions Requirements - College of Pharmacy | USF Health
FactBook and Benchmarks - UNC Eshelman School of Pharmacy
If the schools removed their links, it is probably because they changed the location of their data or removed the page on their website. The numbers alone can tell you which school is better and which one is higher-ranked by US News and World Report. USFCOP is considered middle-tier (#77) while UNC Chapel Hill has been in the TOP 5 for YEARS.
Note: The school rankings data was from 2016. The methodology for US News and World Report rankings is based on "a five-point peer assessment score," not graduation or job placement outcomes, a very inaccurate and biased system. Take that any way you like:
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-health-schools/pharmacy-rankings
Practitioners must have a holistic approach to healthcare; therefore, that strategy is used to buy-in students with lower GPAs who could not matriculate anywhere else. The approach to recruiting students opens the door for an "opportunity" not necessarily employment, which is very sad for pharmacy. Also, the PCAT predicts NAPLEX, not MPJE, scores: BOTH EXAMS MUST BE PASSED TO PRACTICE PHARMACY IN MOST STATES. Other states like GA and NY require licensure candidates to pass a compounding exam in addition to the NAPLEX and MPJE, to be licensed in GA and NY respectively. Furthermore, most pharmacist jobs require licensure (which includes mail order and order entry), and Grad Intern positions are few and far between.
Each state also has its own requirements for licensure, making schools promote one idea onto you: "Even though you have a license in 5 states, there are 45 other states you could be licensed in but choose not to." That is the logic our COP's Department of Student Affairs told me personally. My answer to that retort is this: one pharmacist cannot realistically be licensed in all 50 states: they would go nuts following all of the requirements and paying to retake the MPJE to retain each license is unnecessary and counterproductive.
The predictors for high NAPLEX scores are located in the following link from 2009:
PCAT and NAPLEX: An Overview
Study that justifies it:
McCall KL, MacLaughlin EJ, Fike DS, Ruiz B. Preadmission predictors of PharmD graduates' performance on the NAPLEX. Am J Pharm Educ. 2007;71:5.
*NOTE: The citation was posted directly from the article.
I think the reference should be modified to "3.2+ and undecided," not "2.5 pre-everything." I would prefer that both phrases NOT BE INCLUDED as both imply inaccurate statements. Granted the GPA range for matriculants for some pharmacy schools is much wider (3.0-4.0 for the University of Kentucky), most health professions programs accept individuals with a 3.4-3.6 GPA anyways, including some pharmacy schools. I encourage posting accurate numbers instead of a turning phrase to scare people.
On a side note: Macroecnomics/Microeconomics is a required prerequisite course for USFCOP, but apparently the pharmacist demand was not gauged properly by the stakeholders who chose to grant start-up funds. UNC Chapel Hill does not have Macroeconomics or Microeconomics as a prerequisite, yet their school won the P&T competition (AMCP) two years in a row. It is quite ironic.
AMCP Chapter Wins Second Straight National P&T Competition - UNC Eshelman School of Pharmacy
Those are my evidence-based thoughts.
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I think the fault falls on the board of pharmacy in every state. We all know that Walgreens/CVS are the dominants in this market and those two retailers, while competing with each other, completely downgraded and degraded this industry. It's not the number of schools out there and the number of graduates out there and instead, it's the tight squeeze on every pharmacist to put in intense labor hours processing hundred of prescription in a short period of time and putting patients in jeopardy.
The board members of any state pharmacy board is typically appointed by the governor and they have rules in which constituents can voice concerns about the quality of healthcare, we as patients are receiving. When medical boards require 10 to 15 years in education/training to become a doctor, the quality is at its best. Same applies to nurses, pharmacist, dentists, etc. We can go these pharmacy boards and make public comments. We can write letters to them asking them to regulate this so that pharmacist are dispensing drugs that saves people's lives as opposed to selling cheeseburgers!
It'll take sometime until regulators wake up but there will be a point of time when the PR over fatal pharmacy errors that'll compel pharmacy boards to take action to stop those two retailers from converting this profession from quality healthcare to a full service gas station.
The board members of any state pharmacy board is typically appointed by the governor and they have rules in which constituents can voice concerns about the quality of healthcare, we as patients are receiving. When medical boards require 10 to 15 years in education/training to become a doctor, the quality is at its best. Same applies to nurses, pharmacist, dentists, etc. We can go these pharmacy boards and make public comments. We can write letters to them asking them to regulate this so that pharmacist are dispensing drugs that saves people's lives as opposed to selling cheeseburgers!
It'll take sometime until regulators wake up but there will be a point of time when the PR over fatal pharmacy errors that'll compel pharmacy boards to take action to stop those two retailers from converting this profession from quality healthcare to a full service gas station.
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Disagree. The corporatization of retail pharmacy is a symptom of the underlying problem which is the number of pharmacy schools/graduates each year. When the supply of new grad pharmacists outpaces demand by a factor of 9 each year, then it’s obvious what the market will do: cut hours. If they didn’t then there would be many more unemployed/underemployed pharmacists than there are today because by creating 5 “jobs” at 24 hrs/week compared to having 3 jobs at 40 hrs a week you actually do the job market a favor by absorbing more pharmacists. If they didn’t start clamping down on metrics, then they would need to hire enough Rphs to be adequately staffed (2 overlapping Rphs at CVS at all times, for example), but then you’d get Rphs sitting around twiddling their thumbs when it’s “slow” which is just wasting company money. Once the number of available pharmacists in the market ballooned past a certain point, the “worth” of any particular pharmacist began to deteriorate rapidly because you can always find a new replacement the next day. So the PharmD degree which was once considered a “commodity” is now a worthless piece of paper with a name on it.
I recommend that you look into how Sea World gets away with overworking and underpaying their dolphin/orca trainers— they’re stuck in their jobs with no leverage because if they complain or threaten to quit then they’ve got 50 people standing in line to replace them (obviously not knowing how horrid the conditions are) and it’s “next man up” mentality. It’s not just a pharmacy thing. It’s a common phenomenom that happens in any profession when there’s saturation.
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"When the supply of new grad pharmacists outpaces demand by a factor of 9 each year" i love this quote. This exactly. What will happen? the same thing that always happens. Positions get way more competitive. ONly the best networkers get the jobs. If you are not extroverted and hyper-assertive you will not be able to survive in a saturated climate. Work conditions will get worse as companies are able to get rid of expendable pharmacist positions. Luckily I am willing to work for as low as 17 USD an hour as a pharmacist so i should be OKAY but who knows. I have a plan B ready in place in case i 1a can't get a job 1b can't find a position paying at least 17 USD an hour. I suggest all new grads should have a plan B in place.
I also have a life insurance plan that covers suicide after two years in case my mental health nose dives. I am not suicidal and have never been but I love getting insurance because it helps me sleep at night by lowering my anxiety and helping me feel safe.
you need to ask yourself:
what regional managers and VPs do i know from company X that can guarantee me a full time position.
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No point to buy life insurance if you don't have dependents.
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My dependent is the Wikipedia Foundation. I have them listed as my beneficiary.
Pharmacists have long been great, unrecognized providers of public health. It’s our accessibility and skill in helping people immediately that really sets us apart.
However, now that the great dream of being untethered from the product is becoming reality, we’ll be chasing STAR ratings that at this point are ridiculously narrow in scope. Does anyone really believe it takes a pharmacist to address “adherence” tips or recommend a statin? Soon state laws will allow technicians to administer vaccines and tech-check-tech. I don’t know about you, but I feel like a cheap salesperson when calling patients to recommend some service or other.
While our profession advances in a scholastic sense, we are being crushed by excessive graduates, PBMs, insane wholesale prices, and corporate influence on state boards of pharmacy.
This will be an intangible loss to the public (who DO pay us one way or another) and the decay of a very gratifying aspect of our profession.
RIP
However, now that the great dream of being untethered from the product is becoming reality, we’ll be chasing STAR ratings that at this point are ridiculously narrow in scope. Does anyone really believe it takes a pharmacist to address “adherence” tips or recommend a statin? Soon state laws will allow technicians to administer vaccines and tech-check-tech. I don’t know about you, but I feel like a cheap salesperson when calling patients to recommend some service or other.
While our profession advances in a scholastic sense, we are being crushed by excessive graduates, PBMs, insane wholesale prices, and corporate influence on state boards of pharmacy.
This will be an intangible loss to the public (who DO pay us one way or another) and the decay of a very gratifying aspect of our profession.
RIP
D
deleted562805
Exactly, if I had to do it all over again, no pharmacy school. it does not bode well when you lower standards in your program and then somehow demand respect from other health professions. I see this alot in the hospital more so than retail.
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Yeah that pretty much sums it up man......lol. This field will be left with terrible pharmacists in the next 10 years, after all the hard working, knowledgeable ones have either bailed out, been let go, or simply retire. And YES , I feel like a sleeze bag salesman pushing vaccines, point of care testing, and everything else they are trying to squeeze the last drop of cash out of. All under the disguise of "we care about your health"! I actually have to go set up for wellness day now as i am a WM manager. They have literally come out and said the goal of wellness day is to get "more business" , just FYI. sponsored by fit bit watches, ninja juicer, Milton bradley, and of course Dr OZ! (who will endorse anything profitable enough)
This is literally the understood goal for our market. "to gain new profiles" they call them "intercepts". I'm all for gaining business, but don't do it under the disguise of a "we care about you" situation. That's just scummy.
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Not to be mean, and techs run the pharmacy, but I don't see techs giving vaccines to the general public and them (public) being ok with it. Sure, it's easy as throwing a dart into a piece of meat, but I just don't see that happening.
Tech check tech with my license on the line? No thanks.
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Techs are giving vaccines in ID. It has been working fine so far from what I've seen.
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This is purely geographic in my opinion.
Certain areas of the country are like this.
But, my best friend from pharmacy school who lives in the outer burbs of NYC, who I talk for 2 hours on the phone every week or two says that he was offered a position within 2 months of floating.
He's also good at his job though.
People who go to pharmacy school and have 0 internship experience and 0 learning ability on-the-job will suffer.
This isn't 2004 for pharmacy. A pulse doesn't get you a job. Even being good won't get you the job you want.
The same can be said about any other profession too though.
My oldest cousin is an interventional cardiologist. Last thanksgiving, he went on a tirade about losing autonomy and having to turn his 25 minute one-way commute into 45 minutes after he was transferred to a different hospital in the same network.
This is the nature of the job market for everything now.
Pharmacy isn't alone!
We millenials are being screwed over en masse!
hi everyone what can we do to make things better? advocate for expand roles? i think pharmacist are ideal for educating public and creating health classes etc lets think of solutions! im sick of talking abt the problem we all the know the probs
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Lol. The problem is money. Figure out how to make more money.
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Exactly. Who cares what you can do, what's important is what others are willing to pay for.
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It's not the end of the profession, but the end for the pharmacists who chose this path for all the wrong reasons. If you want an easy job with a six figure salary and low risk, then you're definitely in the wrong field. No one's going to pay you for contributing nothing.
From my retail perspective, I deal with patients on a daily basis. I talk to them, help them understand why taking their medication is important, and genuinely provide care when possible. I provide value. So, for example, I had a patient call me today (Mondays, ugh) to fill his "expensive, useless white pill." That pill was for cholesterol. I chuckled and politely explained that this prescription, although seemingly unimportant, was doing a good job for his cholesterol and that his body would care if he took it. I then asked if he'd like a 90 day to save a bit of money. He paused for a bit, then said, yes. I think all this took less than a minute and while conversing, I verified a few RXs at the same time too because #efficiency.
It's the little victories like this that bring me joy. Yeah, staff hours are bad, workload is high, and reimbursement rates are even worse. So, just do what you can, make a difference when possible, and hold your head high at the end.
From my retail perspective, I deal with patients on a daily basis. I talk to them, help them understand why taking their medication is important, and genuinely provide care when possible. I provide value. So, for example, I had a patient call me today (Mondays, ugh) to fill his "expensive, useless white pill." That pill was for cholesterol. I chuckled and politely explained that this prescription, although seemingly unimportant, was doing a good job for his cholesterol and that his body would care if he took it. I then asked if he'd like a 90 day to save a bit of money. He paused for a bit, then said, yes. I think all this took less than a minute and while conversing, I verified a few RXs at the same time too because #efficiency.
It's the little victories like this that bring me joy. Yeah, staff hours are bad, workload is high, and reimbursement rates are even worse. So, just do what you can, make a difference when possible, and hold your head high at the end.
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The only way pharmacists can save their profession is to all, in unison, dig in and stop providing services like that for free.
Stop identifying pills for free.
Stop answering rando phone questions for free.
Stop doing OTC consults for free.
Stop doing DURs for free. They're required by law in every state and we're the only ones that can do them. How did we arrive here?
D
deleted264072
Who said Rph are the only ones doing DUR? Most PBM are using technicians and nurses for this. How did we allow this?
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Isn’t that part of the argument for provider status? We can then bill for this stuff.
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The thing is the time clock is ticking and is about to run out. There is a tremendous amount of potential for pharmacists mainly retail but there has to be significant change in our health care system and laws which unfortunately I don't think will come quick enough. In the ideal world, pharmacists would manage chronic diseases with a dr diagnosis at their retail pharmacy. At the direction retail is going at the moment retail pharmacy will be gone I am going to say in 10 years, everything automated or done through the mail. Once (if ever) this new model to healthcare comes, it will likely be to late and those retail jobs will be gone for good.
naspa.us
Doctor says pharmacists are qualified to prescribe - NASPA
Kevin Bozic, M.D., MBA Question leading to this response (1:28:42): Are there legal impediments now that you are experiencing … […]
naspa.us
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Then we have people within our profession who think they ride a high horse. For example instead of advocating that all pharmacists get board certified and improve their knowledge we have decided that no, only hospital "clinical" pharmacists should have the ability to do this.
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During a "lul" today had a little discussion with a guy who got the big bootaroo (after mondo years)from a huuuge chain at 56..They are playing games with his retirement account..among other things..Two days ago dude with a big grocery chain...work off the clock or scram...The newbee replacements will be in the wash and rinse cohort..You HAVE been warned
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Heath Ledger's Joker said it best: "If you're good at something, never do it for free."
I completely understand that there are a plethora of (soft) services pharmacists should be getting reimbursement for. I get you. Unfortunately, until a convenient way to bill for these services is created (with a payer) and my employer allows "rando phone calls," there is little motivation to stop. If I tell my staff to stop providing these freebies, another pharmacy will and we'll eventually lose business... and no one wants to be the biggest loser.
All pharmacists cannot feasibly band together without some kind of statute. I could potentially see the big chain pharmacies mandating the end to anything free. Then, there'll always be some indebted scab new grad or independent that will do so.
And finally, I'm not entirely sure how we got here as it was always like this since I've started. If I had to speculate, I'd say a combination of PBM greed, razor-thin reimbursements, and political complacency of previous generations of pharmacists. If retail pharmacies were getting properly reimbursed in the first place, we wouldn't be scrounging around for all these other ways to get paid.
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