It's getting hot out there (ENT)

[neutropeniaboy]

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Well,

Another round of medical students in and out through our doors. I interviewed 40 this year. Some of you got it right; others did okay; a few of you just didn't seem to get your acts together.

Some observations:

Board scores - the lowest I saw was 238; the highest was 266.

Research - EVERYONE we interviewed had research experience. 75% had ENT research; 20% had somewhat related (neurology, neurosurg) research.

EVERYONE we interviewed was AOA

Most of you had glowing recommendations from program directors and faculty; a few of you had lukewarm recommendations; no one had negative recommendations.

Most of you honored medicine and surgery

Some recommendations for the next crop:

1. Achieve the above
2. Don't nod off during your interview
3. Doing a required community service project is not really community service
4. Some of you with research still don't know the gist of your research, or even which journal your research was published in; that baffles me. How can you be so obtuse?
5. Don't write melodramatic personal statements (e.g., "I stood in awe as the surgeon fashioned the incision," "ENT is a field with limitless possibilities," or "otolaryngology is the bomb.")
6. Don't laugh like Fran Drescher; if you do, try not to
7. It's a good idea to not complain about having to do flap checks
8. No matter how confused the interviewer is, do not say things like "Well, as I just said..."
9. If you shake me with your sweaty hand that's been in your pocket all morning such that I have to wipe my own hand off, think about seeing a dermatologist.
10. Khakis and a brown blazer is not a good choice
11. Miniskirts are not good choices
12. Don't make comments about the student who just came out of the interview before you, even if he is sweating like a pig.
13. Don't speak in monotone.
14. If you say you like sports, at least know who won the world series this year. This same person said he's "not sure" who's playing in the superbowl this year either...
15. If you interview with a resident, don't think he's there to be your buddy and sympathize, give you an extra edge, etc.
16. Don't argue with the residents about anything ENT-related.
17. We're not interested in your high school jobs. We're not interested in your years at Subway either. If you have an interesting job pre-college, during college or med school, then list it.
18. The Honors and Awards section of the CAS form is not for listing the courses in which you honored.
19. Don't say things like "I want to do a residency in X region only."
20. Turn your head when you sneeze.


A lot of those sound like common sense. If they do to you as well, then ask yourself, why are people from good medical schools with high board scores doing them???

 

[surggal]

Well,

Another round of medical students in and out through our doors. I interviewed 40 this year. Some of you got it right; others did okay; a few of you just didn't seem to get your acts together.

Some observations:

Board scores - the lowest I saw was 238; the highest was 266.

Research - EVERYONE we interviewed had research experience. 75% had ENT research; 20% had somewhat related (neurology, neurosurg) research.

EVERYONE we interviewed was AOA

Most of you had glowing recommendations from program directors and faculty; a few of you had lukewarm recommendations; no one had negative recommendations.

Most of you honored medicine and surgery

Some recommendations for the next crop:

1. Achieve the above
2. Don't nod off during your interview
3. Doing a required community service project is not really community service
4. Some of you with research still don't know the gist of your research, or even which journal your research was published in; that baffles me. How can you be so obtuse?
5. Don't write melodramatic personal statements (e.g., "I stood in awe as the surgeon fashioned the incision," "ENT is a field with limitless possibilities," or "otolaryngology is the bomb.")
6. Don't laugh like Fran Drescher; if you do, try not to
7. It's a good idea to not complain about having to do flap checks
8. No matter how confused the interviewer is, do not say things like "Well, as I just said..."
9. If you shake me with your sweaty hand that's been in your pocket all morning such that I have to wipe my own hand off, think about seeing a dermatologist.
10. Khakis and a brown blazer is not a good choice
11. Miniskirts are not good choices
12. Don't make comments about the student who just came out of the interview before you, even if he is sweating like a pig.
13. Don't speak in monotone.
14. If you say you like sports, at least know who won the world series this year. This same person said he's "not sure" who's playing in the superbowl this year either...
15. If you interview with a resident, don't think he's there to be your buddy and sympathize, give you an extra edge, etc.
16. Don't argue with the residents about anything ENT-related.
17. We're not interested in your high school jobs. We're not interested in your years at Subway either. If you have an interesting job pre-college, during college or med school, then list it.
18. The Honors and Awards section of the CAS form is not for listing the courses in which you honored.
19. Don't say things like "I want to do a residency in X region only."
20. Turn your head when you sneeze.


A lot of those sound like common sense. If they do to you as well, then ask yourself, why are people from good medical schools with high board scores doing them???

Very interesting to read the perspective of an interviewer.
Everything you said seems quite obvious--with 2 exceptions:

First, while #18 seemed obvious enough to me when I was working on my application, our Dean's office explicitly directed us to list the courses we honored under Honors and Awards. We were told that it was expected.

Second, I wouldn't think there would be any problem with saying that you want to train in a certain part of the country. Why is it so bad to say? I'm baffled.

Lastly, since you've had experience interviewing, I'd be curious to know your perspective on why interviewers ask questions like "what are your weaknesses?" Would you please explain the purpose of the question? Is it to weed out people who say things like: "I have a bad temper", "I'm clumsy", "I don't work well with people", or "I don't have any weaknesses", etc.? Or is there something the interviewer is looking for?

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[mcindoe]

A lot of those sound like common sense. If they do to you as well, then ask yourself, why are people from good medical schools with high board scores doing them???

Well, why would you believe that board scores have anything to do with personality? I know a handful of people who aced the SAT, MCAT or the USMLE...and let's just say these aren't the types of people I would invite out for coffee. Besides, isn't this the exact reason why there are interviews at all?

Some observations:

Board scores - the lowest I saw was 238; the highest was 266.

Research - EVERYONE we interviewed had research experience. 75% had ENT research; 20% had somewhat related (neurology, neurosurg) research.

EVERYONE we interviewed was AOA

Most of you had glowing recommendations from program directors and faculty; a few of you had lukewarm recommendations; no one had negative recommendations.

Most of you honored medicine and surgery

While I appreciate you taking the time to offer the interview advice, I don't really understand why you included the above excerpts. Unless your intention is to intimidate, scare, or discourage current or future applicants, what are you trying to suggest? That if you don't have a step 1 over 238 or you're not AOA then start reconsidering your career plans?

Do you think anyone is trying NOT to score well on step 1, or not eager to be AOA?

We're all here reading these forums because we're anxious about the applications, and how is this sort of dialogue (e.g. "EVERYONE was AOA....EVERYONE had research...") useful? These observations come across more as boasting about how in-demand your job is than as constructive advice to prospective applicants. I doubt that you meant any ill when writing your post, but I also question the motivation.

 

[Docgeorge]

If I'm not mistaken the neutrpeniaboy is at Iowa and from what the ENT's here say it's supposed to be a HOT **** porg so I'm not really supprised why all the people they interviewed were >238 with AOA.

 

[avgjoe]

Well, why would you believe that board scores have anything to do with personality? I know a handful of people who aced the SAT, MCAT or the USMLE...and let's just say these aren't the types of people I would invite out for coffee. Besides, isn't this the exact reason why there are interviews at all?



While I appreciate you taking the time to offer the interview advice, I don't really understand why you included the above excerpts. Unless your intention is to intimidate, scare, or discourage current or future applicants, what are you trying to suggest? That if you don't have a step 1 over 238 or you're not AOA then start reconsidering your career plans?

Do you think anyone is trying NOT to score well on step 1, or not eager to be AOA?

We're all here reading these forums because we're anxious about the applications, and how is this sort of dialogue (e.g. "EVERYONE was AOA....EVERYONE had research...") useful? These observations come across more as boasting about how in-demand your job is than as constructive advice to prospective applicants. I doubt that you meant any ill when writing your post, but I also question the motivation.

wow .. i'm not applying in ent, but I thought it was really nice that he was so clear about his programs' expectations because then people will know what to expect! I'd much rather know the truth right up front (at least for some programs) than be surprised at a much later date.

 

[mcindoe]

wow .. i'm not applying in ent, but I thought it was really nice that he was so clear about his programs' expectations because then people will know what to expect! I'd much rather know the truth right up front (at least for some programs) than be surprised at a much later date.

...but he didn't tell you which program it is. Instead, we're left to wonder what this mysterious program is that only interviews people with AOA, step 1 >238, honors in surgery and medicine, glowing letters, research experience, etc. How is that telling you the truth "right up front"? Are we to assume that these are the expectations of the typical program? Dermatology, maybe. But not ENT.

I think the people who are really "surprised at a much later date" are the ones that actually do have step 1 scores of 260, flawless GPAs, AOA, the whole package and then DON'T get an interview. As I've seen from these boards, this happens quite regularly.

 

[Talula]

Any prospective ENT applicants can chill out. I decided at nearly the last minute (end of July) to apply to ENT, and therefore had no ENT specific research. The research experience that I've had was not published, either. I am NOT AOA, I did not honor medicine OR surgery, but I do have a board score at the higher range mentioned. I don't think my recs were necessarily 'glowing,' either, because when I made my decision I didn't know my home department terribly well and it was too late for away electives.

Anyway, the point of me posting the above is this: I applied to 40 programs and received 17 interview invites, some from very good programs (I did not apply to Iowa - and now I'm glad I saved my money!) Not all programs, including good ones, are searching for cookie-cutter applicants with a specific set of credentials. A lot of them want friendly, down-to-earth people with interesting real-world experience. I may not match at a top academic program, but I feel great about my chances of matching somewhere I'll love. 😀

 

[Harrie]

While I appreciate you taking the time to offer the interview advice, I don't really understand why you included the above excerpts. Unless your intention is to intimidate, scare, or discourage current or future applicants, what are you trying to suggest? That if you don't have a step 1 over 238 or you're not AOA then start reconsidering your career plans?

Do you think anyone is trying NOT to score well on step 1, or not eager to be AOA?

We're all here reading these forums because we're anxious about the applications, and how is this sort of dialogue (e.g. "EVERYONE was AOA....EVERYONE had research...") useful? These observations come across more as boasting about how in-demand your job is than as constructive advice to prospective applicants. I doubt that you meant any ill when writing your post, but I also question the motivation.

Every day there is another "what are my chances" post. Then somebody takes the time to talk about the credentials required to get into a program and try to put an answer into the age-old "what are my chances" question and people get all upset. Seriously, he's just trying to be helpful.

 

[Skinny]

Helpful to prospective applicants or helpful to his own ego? I guess if you do match in a top program you have reinforced the notion you are god's gift to everything breathing.

 

[trex92499]

Having a high board score is what gets you the interview. I was 2 class rank spots from AOA (the top 15% in our class get it), with research both medical school and undergrad, quite significant, active in my ENT department, had glowing letters of rec (and I mean GLOWING) and a 213 on step 1. I got 2 interviews...1 at my home institution and 1 at the place i did an away rotation. I took step 2 early to make up for step 1 but had a processing delay due to the test center i took it at...got a 240. But it wasn't in time.

So for all of you out there who are thinking of applying, if you don't want your heart broken, make sure you have at least a 230 step 1 and or very high step 2 which is in before apps go out. I spent a lot of money on my app and a lot of time with the department and it has yielded me jack squat. I also spent a month away from my family and thousands of dollars on an away rotation and it is very likely I will not match. I received no indication that this would be this way from anyone in my home program or from my dean and I wish that someone would have had the BALLS to be honest with me. I was later told, "well, we don't discourage anyone from applying because we never know what they are looking for" Bullsquat....they want a high step score.

Every field has now become a numbers game. It is the only way for PDs to sort through the hundreds of apps they get. Who wants to read 100 essays on why someone wants to do this or that? I am applying to another field now and magically, the day after my 240 step 2 was released I got 2 interviews from very prestigious programs...not a peep from them before that, though. Its sick that the rest of our lives is based on an 8 hour test. But that is the truth

The moral to this: Do very very very well on your step. Don't believe anyone who tells you different. And finally, don't get your hopes up, every year you hear a story of someone with a 190 step who matched in plastics or ortho, I'm pretty sure now it is an urban legend

 

[SteadyEddy]

Hey homey...I'm sorry to hear about what happened to you. I hope that all work out for you in the end. I also would have to agree with what you've said thus far. A bad step 1 score will shut doors for you, and a good one certainly opens some up. To add to this though, I think the reputation of your medical school makes a HUGE difference. My school has a great history, and it shows every time I go into an interview. I've interviewed with 2 Emeritus professors, both of whom asked me if I knew about professorships named after folks at my institution. Surgery seems to be all about the pedigree.

Having a high board score is what gets you the interview. I was 2 class rank spots from AOA (the top 15% in our class get it), with research both medical school and undergrad, quite significant, active in my ENT department, had glowing letters of rec (and I mean GLOWING) and a 213 on step 1. I got 2 interviews...1 at my home institution and 1 at the place i did an away rotation. I took step 2 early to make up for step 1 but had a processing delay due to the test center i took it at...got a 240. But it wasn't in time.

So for all of you out there who are thinking of applying, if you don't want your heart broken, make sure you have at least a 230 step 1 and or very high step 2 which is in before apps go out. I spent a lot of money on my app and a lot of time with the department and it has yielded me jack squat. I also spent a month away from my family and thousands of dollars on an away rotation and it is very likely I will not match. I received no indication that this would be this way from anyone in my home program or from my dean and I wish that someone would have had the BALLS to be honest with me. I was later told, "well, we don't discourage anyone from applying because we never know what they are looking for" Bullsquat....they want a high step score.

Every field has now become a numbers game. It is the only way for PDs to sort through the hundreds of apps they get. Who wants to read 100 essays on why someone wants to do this or that? I am applying to another field now and magically, the day after my 240 step 2 was released I got 2 interviews from very prestigious programs...not a peep from them before that, though. Its sick that the rest of our lives is based on an 8 hour test. But that is the truth

The moral to this: Do very very very well on your step. Don't believe anyone who tells you different. And finally, don't get your hopes up, every year you hear a story of someone with a 190 step who matched in plastics or ortho, I'm pretty sure now it is an urban legend

 

[Pikevillemedstudent]

Helpful to prospective applicants or helpful to his own ego? I guess if you do match in a top program you have reinforced the notion you are god's gift to everything breathing.

👎 I really don't think your comments are fair. The post was very informative and only meant to help. You learned how his program interviewed applicants and some of the mistakes made by interviewees. No signs of ego stroking to me, but only he knows his true intentions.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

First, while #18 seemed obvious enough to me when I was working on my application, our Dean's office explicitly directed us to list the courses we honored under Honors and Awards. We were told that it was expected.

Not sure why you were told that; we all thought it was not the point of the section to list grades.

Second, I wouldn't think there would be any problem with saying that you want to train in a certain part of the country. Why is it so bad to say? I'm baffled.

2 things: our program wasn't in that region; it indicates that you're not willing to negotiate or implies you're not as interested in ENT as others might be.

Lastly, since you've had experience interviewing, I'd be curious to know your perspective on why interviewers ask questions like "what are your weaknesses?" Would you please explain the purpose of the question? Is it to weed out people who say things like: "I have a bad temper", "I'm clumsy", "I don't work well with people", or "I don't have any weaknesses", etc.? Or is there something the interviewer is looking for?

Thanks for the feedback.

We're looking to see if you can be critical of yourself. We're looking to see if you realize that you have weaknesses and we're waiting to hear that you're working on them. One guy actually said things like "I'm not a morning person, and sometimes I have trouble staying up late." Not good for a surgery resident.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

While I appreciate you taking the time to offer the interview advice, I don't really understand why you included the above excerpts. Unless your intention is to intimidate, scare, or discourage current or future applicants, what are you trying to suggest? That if you don't have a step 1 over 238 or you're not AOA then start reconsidering your career plans?

Because this comes up EVERY year: what board scores do I need? Do I need to do research? Do I need to get AOA.

Read the boards. I'm telling you guys: Yes, you need research; yes, you need honors; yes, you need high scores...

 

[neutropeniaboy]

If I'm not mistaken the neutrpeniaboy is at Iowa and from what the ENT's here say it's supposed to be a HOT **** porg so I'm not really supprised why all the people they interviewed were >238 with AOA.

I'm not from Iowa. I'm from a "middle tier" program.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Yeah, I don't understand half of the responses here. I've been on this board for a long time, medschool.com before that, and I post on otomatch.com.

I have a reputation of being arrogant, and that's okay. But anyone who knows me knows that when it comes to ENT, I go out of my way to help people understand about the residency, what it takes to get into it, and have made myself readily available when it comes to questions.

My post was to provide an insider's perspective, since you who are applying have none. Every year posts come up entitled "what do i need to do?" They flood every single message board, sometimes multiple posts in succession regarding the same thing.

I'm just telling it like it is.

I'm impressed by the candidates this year. Not only do they appear to have higher board scores in average, but the appear to have higher everything on average. I don't think I'd have a problem getting in to ENT if I applied now, but it's interesting when your colleagues say that they might not have gotten in if they applied now.

It's food for thought. ENT will peak and probably decline like all other specialties -- just not this year.

 

[Skinny]

👎 I really don't think your comments are fair. The post was very informative and only meant to help. You learned how his program interviewed applicants and some of the mistakes made by interviewees. No signs of ego stroking to me, but only he knows his true intentions.

I agree that some of these if not most were meant to be helpful and I apologize to neutropeniaboy if I am wrong. I just can't read #9 and #12 and not think there is a little sense of "I am here, you are not, la la la we are back in 3rd grade on the playground." Again I apologize if I feel something different than others when I read the original post. 😳

 

[bobby6]

Its definately a numbers game. Most of my interviews, I've noticed a cover sheet over my application which had my board scores and my AOA status. Most important definately has to be STEP 1 by far. Step 1 > 235 is almost necessary to receive a significant number of interviews. Moreover, the number of applicants applying from your school effects where you get interviews. I've been splitting interviews with classmates and noticed most places will not interview more than 2 people from one school. Reputation of your medical school does little to help you if you have a mediocre step 1. I've met several people from top 5 med schools who actually took a year off to do research b/c they didn't think they were competitive enough.

I've also noticed alot of regionalism. Most programs in New York or California do not give out interviews unless you have an extremely stellar application or have lived or did an any rotation in that area. Several of my friends with similar stats applied to California and none of them got interviews except myself who is from California.

To give some perspective, I scored 240 on Step 1, not AOA, high pass in surgery and medicine, significant ENT research. Applied to 50 programs, received 24 interview offers. So AOA is definately not necessary but I think research is important as a majority of the good programs out there want to train academic ENTs.

By the way, ***neutropeniaboy, how important do you think thank you letters are? Does it effect your ranking at all and does telling a program that you will be ranking them highly help them to rank you higher?

 

[mcindoe]

I have a question about those of us (e.g. me) who have a step 1 score of <240 but were invited to interview: can we assume that by getting the invitation that the board score isn't so much an issue anymore? How likely is it that the board scores will come up in discussion during the interview?

Thank you.

 

[killahB]

thanks for your guidance thus far. I think its interesting that you guys interviewed only AOA people this year. I didn't get a lot of love from mid-tier programs, oddly enough. I'm not AOA, don't have great research to speak of, but with pretty good board scores. I made the decision really late to go into ENT, so I didn't really have time to buff up my app. Applied to 34 programs, only got 8 offers. Here are some of my thoughts..

-The regional factors are really strong in ENT I feel. I'm from the midwest, and 6 out of my 8 interviews were midwest, and at some of the better places.
-The 2 interviews I went to outside the midwest seemed disinterested in me.
-All the applicants I met were really cool, I'm glad I made this career choice, I fit in with these guys/gals.
-a lot of the chics applying to ENT are HOT! <no flames for my sexism please>
- if i don't match this year, i could always do research and try the next year, and then the next etc. etc.

 

[Docgeorge]

I'm not from Iowa. I'm from a "middle tier" program.

My Bad.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

By the way, ***neutropeniaboy, how important do you think thank you letters are? Does it effect your ranking at all and does telling a program that you will be ranking them highly help them to rank you higher?

I think letters are definitely very important. During our interview break-outs, we had candidates that were "so-so" but had really impressive letters from chairs that the faculty knew well -- enough so that the final rankings were higher. Also, there were a couple of times attendings read recommendations, and in discussion at the table, they'd say things like "What do you think Dr. So and So meant by the word 'motivated' in this sentence?" Seriously, they break down the recommendations sometimes word-by-word. More so if the candidate looks like he may be considered.

Furthermore, I don't think it really helps you either way to say you'll be ranking a program highly. Programs are going to pick you based on your record and your interaction with the faculty.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I have a question about those of us (e.g. me) who have a step 1 score of <240 but were invited to interview: can we assume that by getting the invitation that the board score isn't so much an issue anymore? How likely is it that the board scores will come up in discussion during the interview?

Thank you.

Board scores will get you in. After that, if you have a score that is sort of around what everyone else has, it really doesn't become an issue anymore. However, if everyone else interviewing on your day has 260s, then they'll see your score as standing out negatively. However, if everyone is spread across the 230-250 range, you'll fit in nicely and it will boil down to everything else on your application.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

We interviewed fewer candidates this year, simply because the overall pool was stronger and we felt that we had enough of a solid program that we could be more selective this time around...

I agree that regional factors are strong. I didn't get any love from the northwest programs when I applied, being from the east.

When I interviewed at UCSF, every single attending asked me if moving 3000 miles away from home would be a problem and if I was the "homesick" kind of person, etc. It's definitely a risk for programs if they interview and take candidates who are not likely to be comfortable far from home. If you're willing to go far from home, then tell them and convince them that it's not a problem for you. On the other hand, if you want to stay regional, then don't apply outside that region.

 

[jdubya]

Board scores will get you in. After that, if you have a score that is sort of around what everyone else has, it really doesn't become an issue anymore. However, if everyone else interviewing on your day has 260s, then they'll see your score as standing out negatively. However, if everyone is spread across the 230-250 range, you'll fit in nicely and it will boil down to everything else on your application.

Neutropeniaboy, out of curiosity. If someone had a ridiculous board score, like 282, would that be of significant value when you guys are sitting around making the final rank list?

 

[Gradenigo]

You probably had good intentions, but you are right Nboy, you do come off as arrogant. I think that its important to understand that different schools look for different things. So while the average interviewee at Nboy's program has a score higher than the average accepted applicant from past years, it doesn't mean you won't get accepted elsewhere if your board score don't fall into their range.

I went through this whole process four years ago and my board scores ended up being about average for the applicants that didn't match and I was not AOA. I came from a top med school, had done oto specific research, and great letters (like almost everyone else). I ended up getting ~15 interviews and matched at an elite program. Did I get lucky. Sure I did, but there are probably as many people in my situation as there are that you hear about with 250+, AOA, 25 interviews and don't match. If you have low scores and don't interview well, then I think your screwed, but otherwise if its what you want to do, sub 230 step one scores or lack of AOA status is not a death sentence to your application (at least not at all programs).

 

[Soon2BENT]

Does anyone know anything about MEEI? That's where I really want to do my ENT.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Neutropeniaboy, out of curiosity. If someone had a ridiculous board score, like 282, would that be of significant value when you guys are sitting around making the final rank list?

I'm pretty sure it would "wow" everyone, but I'm also sure we'd have to look at everything else as well. Frankly, I don't know what I'd think in the moment.

 

[dr. neek]

Hey guys,

So many say that they have done OTO specific research...what exactly do you mean? Is it clinical, or lab work, or studies??? I want to do ENT, and I am a 3rd year with Step 1 scores within the range listed earlier, but no research experience. I haven't a clue where to start doing research, but I also want it to mean something, and not do the research just to put it on my application. Neutropeniaboy, how many of the applicants that you interviewed actually had MEANINGFUL and USEFUL research under their belts?

Thanks.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Based on the original post it seems like applying to two specialties with ENT would be the safe thing to do? Is there anything bad about this?

I think I would love to do ENT, but I also wouldnt mind doing something like cardiology or heme/onc or endocrine either. I doubt I will end up scoring a 260 on my USMLEs, so do you guys think I should hedge my bets (so to speak) by applying to both ENT and IM. Any downsides to this (Ill try to keep it on the downlow when applying, but I think even worse than applying to 2 specialties is only applying to 1 and then not matching).

Also, what kind of board scores does it take to get into a midlevel university-based ENT program?

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Based on the original post it seems like applying to two specialties with ENT would be the safe thing to do? Is there anything bad about this?

I don't think most people have to do this. But, that's accepting the fact that most people applying to ENT have board scores within 1 SD of the mean of students accepted into ENT. So, last year the mean was something like 234. If your boards were around there, you stood a reasonable chance of getting in somewhere.

There's nothing bad about applying to two different residencies; most who do it would apply ENT/gen surg.

I think I would love to do ENT, but I also wouldnt mind doing something like cardiology or heme/onc or endocrine either. I doubt I will end up scoring a 260 on my USMLEs, so do you guys think I should hedge my bets (so to speak) by applying to both ENT and IM. Any downsides to this (Ill try to keep it on the downlow when applying, but I think even worse than applying to 2 specialties is only applying to 1 and then not matching).

Also, what kind of board scores does it take to get into a midlevel university-based ENT program?

Again, you don't need 260s. You have to base it on the fact that the average board score is around 235. I was surprised this year to see the range of scores at our institution. Most were in the 240s.

Applying to ENT and an IM residency doesn't seem very sound. They're two very different tracts. You haven't taken Step 1 yet, so I would keep my mind open if I were you. Wait until you do your clinical rotations.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Applying to ENT and an IM residency doesn't seem very sound. They're two very different tracts. You haven't taken Step 1 yet, so I would keep my mind open if I were you. Wait until you do your clinical rotations.

Thanks for the reply and the very helpful thread (at least IMHO) overall.

The thing that kind of worries me, at least from a preclinical standpoint, is that it seems as if to match into a highly competitive specialty you have to know what you want to do early in the game so you can get research, mentoring, etc. Just based on preclinical coursework, I definitely feel that head and neck anatomy and pathology is really cool, but I feel the same way in regards to some of the IM subspecialties as well (I mentioned cards, endo, hemeonc earlier).

On average, how many months of research experience do most accepted ENT applicants have?

Thanks again.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

On average, how many months of research experience do most accepted ENT applicants have?

Thanks again.

I don't know how many months. We just look at what was done. Frankly, if some medical student latched on to a project 2 days before the paper went out, we'd probably never know (or think to ask). We look at the quaality of the contribution the medical student made.

 

[Spiff]

A couple of comments from an applicant's perspective:

I think most of neutropeniaboy's comments are good advice/observations. Especially the parts about knowing what is on your application, because you will get asked about everything at one point or another. I get the impression that it is somewhat of a sport among certain interviewers to tease out potential BS inside the application. So if you put that you enjoy Renaissance art on your app, you can almost count on interviewing with someone who knows a lot about the subject, and will want to know just how much you know about it as well.

Other comments simply illustrate the subjective nature of the whole process, and pretty much make the point that anything -- the way your hair looks, personal quirks, jobs (one resident told me that someone was knocked out of the running for a spot because he had worked a side job as a kid's party clown and everyone thought that was just too wierd), *anything* can make a difference depending on the personal quirks, attitudes, and biases of the interviewer. Think about it like one big blind date, except your date gets a big say in what will probably be a major life-altering event.

Also...

I agree with the other poster(s) that knocking applicants for putting rotation honors on the "awards" section of the CAS is a bit harsh. CAS doesn't provide rules for what goes where, and there is a lot of room for subjective interpretation. If it really offends you to the point that you can no longer concentrate, then all it takes is a brief, one-line swipeover with a Sharpie marker which will obscure maybe .5% of the overall application, thus maybe placing the relative importance of such a grave misstep into perspective.

Also...

We're looking to see if you can be critical of yourself. We're looking to see if you realize that you have weaknesses and we're waiting to hear that you're working on them. One guy actually said things like "I'm not a morning person, and sometimes I have trouble staying up late." Not good for a surgery resident.

Frankly, the above (over)analysis precisely demonstrates why "what are your weaknesses?" is a terrible question. All those loaded assumptions and implications should also provide a word to the wise for anyone out there having the temerity to consider answering that question with any degree of honesty. I understand that the interview process is full of subjectivity, thats just reality, but giving the impression that anything resembling a real weakness will be interpreted in the most negative light possible only serves to encourage obfuscation. Then all you end up testing is the applicant's ability to conjure up some suitably inoffensive quirk which is just novel enough for everyone else to buy as a "weakness."

Incidently, this is precisely why George W. Bush (for better or worse) refused to bite when asked a similar question about "mistakes" during the recent debates.

 

[surggal]

Spiff--Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

A couple more to add:

Interns giving tours should hand off their pagers first. It's poor form to leave a groups of applicants waiting in various areas of the hospital each time you get paged to transport a patient, check on a patient, or go to the OR.

Don't be antisocial while the applicants are waiting between interviews. This should be a time for applicants to ask questions and hear the residents' perspectives. If your huddled in your own little group, it's a huge turn-off.

 

[killahB]

to interviewers,
if other interviewers had already jotted down their opinions about you, please hide them so I can't see them, especially if they are not the best evals in the world. it tends to totally kill your attitude and your interest in the program.
thanks for wasting my money UT- southwestern.

 

[forbin]

to interviewers,
if other interviewers had already jotted down their opinions about you, please hide them so I can't see them, especially if they are not the best evals in the world. it tends to totally kill your attitude and your interest in the program.
thanks for wasting my money UT- southwestern.

Not surprised to hear that about UTSW- I got a weird vibe from that place too. Most of the interviewers were really cool, but there were a couple of real oddballs, especially among the big dogs in the dept.

I think there's a lot of good advice on here for future applicants. My advice would be to cast a very wide net early on (i.e. 35-40 programs) unless you have stats that are well above the avg for matched applicants. Even then, the minimum is probably ~25.

Interviews have generally been very benign for me, and I've interviewed at a lot of "top" programs. The only remotely confrontational interview I got was at (you guessed it) UTSW, and even that hardly qualified as a horror story.

I would also advise making it to as many resident socials/dinners as possible. Three reasons- 1. It's the best way to get a feel for the dept, you will potentially be spending a lot of time with these folks for the next 5 yrs, 2. I get the feeling that residents have a definite say in who gets ranked highly and even more so for who gets ranked low. Don't suck up obviously, but being a friendly and outgoing guy/gal probably goes a long way and 3. Free food and free beer!

Good luck to everybody, especially present ENT applicants 👍

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Sorry to hear about some of your experiences.

I take the interview process very seriously. I've worn a suit every time. I created slide show and powerpoint presentations for the incoming residents. I greet everyone personally before the interviews and choose to be open and candid with medical students, as I was in their position not too long ago. I remember what it's like.

I think it's completely disrespectful to watch EPSN during the interview, bash other programs, or make a candidate feel uncomfortable in any way. I remember feeling that when I went to UVA; I was completely jazzed about the program, and I had to sit through 10 minutes of their chair bashing my chair. Total downer and waste of my time.

So, fear not; there are many of us who take interview day seriously.

 

[cubs3canes]

I am confused about the regional aspects of the ENT match and interview. If you do not want to leave a region, like the Southeast, do you limit your applications? Does that diminish your chances of matching?

I am from the Southeast, have scores just below that range and really do not want to leave the region. There are only 10 programs in my area. Do I need to convince my family it would be better for my career to move and lie to myself? Or is it better to just apply top the limited number of programs in my region?


What regions are more competitive in your opinion?

Thanks

cubs
m3

 

[otopico]

Unless you are absolutely decided upon staying in one region (i.e. your wife or family), I would try to be a bit flexible given that ENT is such a competitive field. I wanted to either be in the midwest or east coast so I mainly applied to programs there, but I did apply to others. If you are serious about ENT you will have to apply to at least 30 programs (on average) to get enough interviews to raise your probability of matching. Some regions have 30, others have far less (as is your case). So at least widen your range a bit to guarantee enough interviews. If you're a star applicant with tons of research, 260 on your boards, AOA, etc... you can be a bit more particular, but even then I wouldn't risk being to strict. Hope this helps...

 

[bobby6]

I would apply to at least 30 programs with whatever your scores are and not limiting your application to one region. I have heard stories throughout the interview season of applicants only receiving one or two interviews in their region where they want to stay. Some programs in your region may not even interview you if you are just too competitive because they assume you will not go there. Programs out there are trying to find the best fit for them and while Step 1 and AOA status are important, there are still so many variables out there.

I personally would rather be safe than sorry. Apply at least 30 places where you may have family and then you can be more picky about where to interview when you do get them. I, however, would not apply to Kentucky if you are from New York because you will have a tough time convincing them that you would move. Applying to Chicago , Los Angeles, Detroit, from New York would be okay.

I've meet 5 people on the interview trail at top ENT programs who did not match last year and they seemed to have some great numbers. Most of them appeared to be too regional and only interviewed at the top programs and not some in the middle tier.

 

[cubs3canes]

Thank you for the advice. It looks like 30 programs is the number.

 

[The Maxx]

One question you should be asking yourself is whether you would rather match into a location outside of the southeast or not match. If the answer is match outside, then by all means apply to at least 30 places. As for the most competive regions, I would have to say West Coast>=East Coast>Midwest>Southwest>Southeast. But there are many exceptions to this broad generalization (great programs all over). People may disagree with me, but this is just my gestault. Some people have already given you good advise in that the initial applications are not the time to skimp. When interviews begin to roll in, if you have a couple fists full, then you should start trimming the fat. I guess the followup will inevitably be how many programs to interview at. I think that 10 is a perfect number, but from the applicants that have been coming through this year, it seems that people are on average interviewing at more places now, ~15. I don't know what to tell you there, but if you are honest with yourself and can look in the mirror and think that you come off really well interviewing, then 10 should be more than sufficient. If you look better on paper than in interviews, then 15 is probably safer. I hope this helps and good luck.

 

[cubs3canes]

The way I figure it. There are about 18 programs between Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South and North Carolina. I can increase the number to 30 by applying to the programs in California and New Mexico and Arizona. I realize that chosing places to apply based on location and not on the quality of the program is not the best idea. However, I have a wife and a family and they do NOT like cold weather. This is a huge factor in my happiness.

Thanks for all of your advice. I think that I am going to apply and see what happens.

cubs

 

[fongool]

Cali is tough to break into.

Don't forget Arkansas and Oklahoma (very respected)
Missouri, Tennessee and Kentucky (several programs in each.)