It's not that hard to get into Harvard after all...

[bigbassinbob]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Key word is parents. You try living with one parent who works two jobs and tell me who is going to teach you? Furthermore when can a student go to the library when they are bathing, feeding, etc their younger siblings. Also who has the gas money to pay someone to take your child because you don't have a car? "What kinda bs is "IT IS NOT THE SCHOOLS RESPONSIBILITY TO TEACH YOU" Then what the hell am I going to school for? Furthermore how can my father who is not in my home help me especially when he stopped in the 5th grade. What about my mother who is working 2 jobs and got a GED? What are they gonna teach me? I understand your point but I don't think you put any thought into it and refuse to admit the validity of my statement. But hey everyone has an opinion and if you ask someone else it's crap unless it's theirs.

THIS THREAD DOES NEED TO DIE!!!!!!!

All these hardships because you're black right? Ridiculous is the word for this post. Again I call you a *****.

 

[Spitting Camel]

THIS THREAD DOES NEED TO DIE!!!!!!!

See?!? I'm not the only one who feels like this

 

[exmike]

See?!? I'm not the only one who feels like this

Ironically, typing "THIS THREAD NEEDS TO DIE!!" bumps the thread 😛

 

[bigbassinbob]

You're an idiot. There have been studies done that most disadvantaged URM's who become physicians go back to practice in the community they grew up. Why don't you stop whining about AA this and AA that. If there weren't any minority doctors then the minority population would have no access to healthcare. What?? YOu want the minorities to continue going to emergency rooms to get treated? As a future physician, you should know the state of crisis our emergency rooms are in. Yeah, why don't we just continue closing all the emergency rooms just so we can let more students with higher gpas and mcat scores into med school. 🙄

You people are unbelievable. My point was that there are no doctors who practice in the projects and there never will be any doctors who practice in the projects. All these people get their medical care from the emergency room. I don't want these people to continue getting health care from the ER, but that's the way it's going to be. I also said that there's almost nobody from the projects with health insurance, meaning they won't be seen by any doctor - even URM doctors don't take patients without health insurance. I agree that there is a healthcare crisis, especially health insurance, but this has nothing to do with my point about AA.

Furthermore, minority patients do not flock to minority doctors, they flock to whatever doctor is on their health insurance policy. And since people from areas like housing projects don't have health insurance, they flock to the emergency room. That's the unfortunate way it's going to be until something is done about the healthcare insurance situation.

 

[Spitting Camel]

Ironically, typing "THIS THREAD NEEDS TO DIE!!" bumps the thread 😛

hahaha, so true, so true...

 

[Premedtomed]

An outsider's point of view (US resident) :Although trite/corny: Isn't being a doctor about serving the community? This isn't baseball or any other sport where the most qualified is drafted( although Politics does play a sig. role!)
AA is a double edged sword,you can do nothing but give the benefit of doubt. It'd be interesting to see what the status of underprivileged minorities is 20 years from now.
Although I have faced hardships trying to settle in the US, I feel proud to say that I have come up on my own- I received help from well settled relatives, but come to think about it, it didn't help much. Being rich/aided by rich doesn't make a difference when it is about being the individual you wish to be!
Hope that helps. Man is the master of his fate. same goes for women!

 

[rgporter]

How did this thread go from 0 to 9 pages so fast? And how did it become another stupid argument about AA?

Behold the best and worst of SDN.

 

[hypersting]

And you think that just because someone is black and they become a physician that means they would want to practice in the housing projects? What the hell is wrong with you? NOBODY wants to or does practice in housing projects. People who live in housing projects typically get treated in the emergency room, and yes I've seen it because I've worked in one for a year, not a private practice doctor's office. The vast majority of those in the projects don't have insurance, meaning that virtually no physician (black, white, mexican, or otherwise) would even treat them.

You are kidding right? There's countless studies that have been done on how hispanics and black physicians are more likely to work with their own population (where healthcare is needed) AND also that people of all ethnicities provide better health outcomes for people of the same ethnicity, (i.e. African-American with the same, Hispanic with Hispanic, Korean with Korean, etc.) Furthermore, there is a considerable lack of cultural awareness among physicians, as many don't know a second language, haven't taken classes. Look for policy statements forthcoming from the AAP one is titled Diversity in the Pediatric Workforce and the other is Culturally Effective Care.

You guys whine like its a meritocracy. Like get above a 30 MCAT and 3.5 and bingo --> Med School. NO ... Medical School is designed as an entrance gate way to becoming a physician. Thus, those in admissions need to pick those people that will most improve healthcare. There's a level above which anyone is academically qualified, medicine is not rocket science, its more about information storage. A Black person with a 27 and a 3.2 who will work in primary care in West Philadelphia is more useful than another guy planning to go back to his physician surplus suburb. In other words its not about YOU and what YOU have, its about what the healthcare system needs. I don't know why that's so hard to understand. Read the literature, ESPECIALLY Academic Medicine (Journal put out by AAMC), they are VERY concerned about this and and other issues of relevance to admissions. I am kind of tired so I'm only pasting one article in support of my statements below. I can post more if you need.


J Natl Med Assoc. 2000 Oct;92(10):472-80. Related Articles, Links


The intersection of race, gender, and primary care: results from the Women Physicians' Health Study.

Corbie-Smith G, Frank E, Nickens H.

Department of Family and Preventive Medicine, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, Georgia, USA.

The Women Physicians' Health Study is a nationally distributed mailed questionnaire survey of a random sample of 4501 female physicians. We examined differences in the professional characteristics and personal health habits of minority women physicians compared to other women physicians, with regard to the choice of primary care specialties, type or location of practice site, and career satisfaction. Most women physicians were self-described as non-Hispanic white (77.4%), with 13% Asians, and few blacks (4.3%) or Hispanics (5.2%). Blacks and Hispanics were more likely to choose primary care specialties (61.6% and 57.9%, respectively, vs. 49.3% of whites, p < 0.05). Black and Hispanic physicians were most likely to practice in urban areas (71.8% and 72.2%, respectively, p < 0.001). Minority physicians were most likely to report spending some time each week on clinical work for which they did not expect compensation. Black physicians were least likely to report high levels of work control and were least likely to be satisfied with their careers. While most physicians were compliant with the examined recommendations of the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, we did find significant differences by ethnicity in compliance with clinical breast exams, mammograms, and pap smears. In conclusion, there continues to be fewer blacks and Hispanics in the U.S. physician workforce than in the general population. Minority women physicians are more likely to provide primary care services in communities that have been traditionally underserved and may also report higher rates of career dissatisfaction.

 

[Spitting Camel]

Die, thread! cha cha cha... Die, thread! cha cha cha...

 

[Peterock]

Die, thread! cha cha cha... Die, thread! cha cha cha...

Oh so now a thread that discusses minorities need to end violently? WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY Spitting Camel? Do you want to talk about your hate? Gosh... you're so culturally insensitive! 😀

 

[kinetic]

Why don't you stop whining about AA this and AA that. If there weren't any minority doctors then the minority population would have no access to healthcare.

I guess whitey doesn't treat minorities now. Hey, if you support AA, fine. But at least write something that makes sense, like chalkette. When you start making claims like, "without AA, minorities would not only die in the streets, but I think white doctors would actually run out and kill them!!" you look pretty lame.

By the way, the reason people whine about AA this and that is the same reason people "whined" about civil rights -- they see a perceived inequity and want it corrected. You may disagree with their opinion that an inequity exists, but discuss it on that level. Sheesh.

 

[kinetic]

You are kidding right? There's countless studies that have been done on how hispanics and black physicians are more likely to work with their own population ...AND also that people of all ethnicities provide better health outcomes for people of the same ethnicity ...

This is no reason to admit people (of any race) who are unqualified. I mean, should I then say, "let's admit Joe Whiteman, who has a 2.7/24, because we need more physicians for the geriatric white population and studies have shown that white people will provide better health outcomes for white people." I doubt you would like that. If we start admitting people due to their racial makeup -- regardless of what some study shows to justify it -- that's still racism. If I somehow had a study that showed that whites provided superior care on average than URM grads and used that to justify shutting out URMs totally, would you accept that?

You guys whine like its a meritocracy.

It is one. You get judged on performance. Admissions committees are not here to perform social engineering (i.e., admit people because they feel that we "need" more minorities/women in the medical field) -- that's just what things have turned into due to societal guilt and an overcorrection of past wrongs. Do low scores mean you won't be a good physician? No! But, again, why should you get the opportunity to demonstrate that when some other guy does not?

Bottom line: if you want to know what is "fair", ask yourself: would you be OK with it if things were reversed? We have a pie -- you cut it whichever way you want ...but I get to choose which piece to take. Racial inequality against blacks was abhorrent, but that doesn't justify racial inequality the other way.

 

[gaf]

Regarding meritocracy:

It is one. You get judged on performance....
Bottom line: if you want to know what is "fair"....

To a point, but it's not a well organized one. There's an incredible number of applicants for 100 +/- spots in a school. There will always someone with a 3.9/39 who slips through the cracks somewhere. If he's white, it's tempting to blame AA rather than the thought that an admissions committee may have said "This guy's not going to matriculate here. We're a safety school he doesn't need" or the idea tha (perish the thought) his application got put in the wrong pile out of (gasp) human error.

 

[kinetic]

To a point, but it's not a well organized one. There's an incredible number of applicants for 100 +/- spots in a school. There will always someone with a 3.9/39 who slips through the cracks somewhere. If he's white, it's tempting to blame AA rather than the thought that an admissions committee may have said "This guy's not going to matriculate here. We're a safety school he doesn't need" or the idea tha (perish the thought) his application got put in the wrong pile out of (gasp) human error.

It would be understandable and not a problem if things like this happened on an irregular and unsystematic basis. I know, as well as everyone else, that life is quirky. However, that is not the point. We have in place currently a system -- affirmative action -- which is designed to systematically promote certain individuals above others for the purposes of social engineering. Now, you can agree with it or disagree with it. That's fine. But let's not pretend that AA is the same as some random guy getting accepted/rejected. (And I'm sorry if that sounded harsh.)

 

[evines]

It shows you that you can be an older applicant and still be accepted at one of the best medical schools in the world!!!! !111!

Funny!!!11!!! 21 11211!!!

 

[bigdan]

1) Medical school admissions: Unfair
2) Life: Unfair
3) Make the best of life, and deal with it.

Continue.

dc

 

[Farrah]

- That profile on md applicants is fake - and like the above poster said this thread needs to end

 

[kinetic]

1) Medical school admissions: Unfair
2) Life: Unfair
3) Make the best of life, and deal with it.

Continue.

dc

Yes, life is inherently unfair, but that's not a justification for accepting an artificially-placed inequity.

I somehow doubt people would be saying "life is unfair, deal with it" if admissions committes shut out minorities.

 

[kinetic]

- That profile on md applicants is fake - and like the above poster said this thread needs to end

Why should this thread end? Because we're not allowed to question AA? 🙄

 

[Farrah]

becasue i think people are starting to repeat themselves now

 

[kinetic]

becasue i think people are starting to repeat themselves now

True. But so are about half of the threads on this forum. 😉

 

[Farrah]

😴 .......

 

[cher25]

Hi Kinetic, I believe that you are correct. AA is terribly unfair. I say this as an URM who did grow up with hardships. My own family has experienced the unfairness of it. My parents started us off in the 'ghetto' while they worked their way through school while taking care of three children. My mother eventually got her B.S., M.S., and R.N. and my father a B.S., M.S., and Ph.D. My parents are both very successful now but it wasn't until all of the 'damage' was done before they were able to move us out of the ghetto. My father was working for a College which eventually closed down. During his application process for a positions at Universities, he was turned away, more than once from historically black Universities who said he was overly qualified but they had a minority quota to meet. (minority in this case being a non black). So yes kinetic, I see your point, it is unfair for someone less qualified to get a position based on any policy. But the damage is done. It's not going to be fixed anytime soon. It'll take years for the playing field to be leveled. There are some people, regardless of ethnicity, that should be given a chance based on other things. What were their ECs like? Work Experience? Volunteer? LORs? Personal Statement? These are legitimate things to look at. Med school shouldn't be solely based on MCAT and GPA. Looking at other things as well is fair, and will help bridge the gap created by 'hardships'.

 

[gaf]

...We have in place currently a system -- affirmative action -- which is designed to systematically promote certain individuals above others for the purposes of social engineering. Now, you can agree with it or disagree with it. That's fine. But let's not pretend that AA is the same as some random guy getting accepted/rejected. (And I'm sorry if that sounded harsh.)

Not harsh, and my point is not to agree or disagree with affirmative action.

The point is that one rarely knows the reason for a reject unless it's a relatively obvious one ("Well, with a 1.9 GPA and a 7 on the MCAT...").

Second, applicant A doesn't get rejected because applicant B was accepted (i.e. its not a one-on-one competition between A: 3.5/30 and B: URM, 3.4/29). Applicant A got rejected because applicant B-ZZZ (and maybe even 😴 ) got admitted. So if you are applicant A, who took "your spot?" There's no answer.

Finally, if it all came down to MCATxGPA, there wouldn't be admissions committees. There'd be some undergrad work-study employee doing it. URM status is part of a total package that includes your MCAT, GPA, ECs, LORs, PS, interview.

 

[thewzdoc]

Key word is parents. You try living with one parent who works two jobs and tell me who is going to teach you? Furthermore when can a student go to the library when they are bathing, feeding, etc their younger siblings. Also who has the gas money to pay someone to take your child because you don't have a car? "What kinda bs is "IT IS NOT THE SCHOOLS RESPONSIBILITY TO TEACH YOU" Then what the hell am I going to school for? Furthermore how can my father who is not in my home help me especially when he stopped in the 5th grade. What about my mother who is working 2 jobs and got a GED? What are they gonna teach me? I understand your point but I don't think you put any thought into it and refuse to admit the validity of my statement. But hey everyone has an opinion and if you ask someone else it's crap unless it's theirs.

THIS THREAD DOES NEED TO DIE!!!!!!!

I'm not going to pretend that I know you but I know what I went through. ?I? always have it worse than that guy, is the excuse so many use for failure. When more people realize that your failure is your own then we can all start to move forward (1). As long as there are people (regardless of ethnicity, race whatever) that see themselves, as victims then there will be problems in this country.

You have to be realistic enough to know that a lot of teachers are there for the same reasons that someone else drives a truck?it?s a job. I had a few wonderful teachers that loved to teach and there classes were wonderful but a lot of the time we were just herded from one subject to the next with teachers that simply said, ?Read pages 250-280 and don?t talk. There will be a quiz on the subject tomorrow.? Then he/she would go back to whatever they were doing and ignore us. If I wanted to learn I had to take the initiative or be prodded by my mom. Yes my mother worked too and came home late; I was a ?latch key kid?. My father was in the military and was gone for weeks at a time and sometimes a year on TDY?s.

(1)Excuses abound for failure and at times I agree there are actually very good reasons for failure. I just think that the majority of the time failure can be avoided with hard work and determination.

The whole ?no gas for the car??..I rode the bus while I lived in Spain or walked?gasp.

 

[hypersting]

This is no reason to admit people (of any race) who are unqualified. I mean, should I then say, "let's admit Joe Whiteman, who has a 2.7/24, because we need more physicians for the geriatric white population and studies have shown that white people will provide better health outcomes for white people."

Actually there are admissions preferences for non-URMs. They are geographic biases, ID, AK, etc. There are also biases against those who are from underserved medical counties (because they are more likely to return there). Jefferson has a program where you can gain admission if you agree to practice Family Medicine in an underserved area. Its not about race, but about addressing the healthcare system.

I doubt you would like that. If we start admitting people due to their racial makeup -- regardless of what some study shows to justify it -- that's still racism. If I somehow had a study that showed that whites provided superior care on average than URM grads and used that to justify shutting out URMs totally, would you accept that?

No, because even if their standard of healthcare is lower, just like those FMGs and small town folk who go practice rural healthcare (primarily white), if they serve an underserved area, its better for those individuals than no healthcare at all.

It is one. You get judged on performance. Admissions committees are not here to perform social engineering (i.e., admit people because they feel that we "need" more minorities/women in the medical field) -- that's just what things have turned into due to societal guilt and an overcorrection of past wrongs. Do low scores mean you won't be a good physician? No! But, again, why should you get the opportunity to demonstrate that when some other guy does not?

I don't believe its a correction of past wrongs. How is it relevant that there was no african-american doctors 100 years ago? That fact has no bearing on the healthcare of today. Its about fixing the imbalance in physician distribution. There is a shortage in the inner city and the rural areas while there's a surplus in the suburbs. I look at URM and geographic prefrences as necessary evils to help equalize healthcare distribution, nothing more. The only truly unfair admissions preference is that of legacy admissions or deals with undergraduate colleges. Its inherently elitist and doesn't aid in any way the state of the nation's healthcare.

Again, its not a meritocracy. You are judged based on what the medical schools want, not how your perform. They want higher numbers so you get them. You don't just get in based on your numbers, you get in based on them picking you. Other countries have meritocracy admissions. The whole country of pre-meds takes one test. They take the top 25 in one school and go on down placing them in a school. The only way tn get a position outside of this system is bribery. I personally think this is a better system, albeit frustrating.

 

[cher25]

(1)Excuses abound for failure and at times I agree there are actually very good reasons for failure. I just think that the majority of the time failure can be avoided with hard work and determination.

I agree. But it starts alot sooner than med school entry. It starts from childhood. And alot of things need to be corrected. The source of it all needs to be corrected. And until the source is corrected, the snowball effect will continue in most cases. For example, I wasn't effectively able to 'take control' until I was in college. And I did what it took to finish my B.S. and am now working towards my Masters and eventually towards med school because of my determination and hard work. So in my case, failure was avoided...eventually. But some people don't have the opportunities that I have had. And I believe that it's more than a few because I've seen it with my own two eyes. I've grown up around it. So until the source is fixed (by source, I mean environment, poor teachers, poor parenting in some cases, etc...) then the problem continues.

Just as I see Kinetic's points, I see your point as well. Your points are very valid and very well recieved. But please, glimpse the other side of it so that we can understand each other better.

 

[kinetic]

Actually there are admissions preferences for non-URMs. They are geographic biases, ID, AK, etc. There are also biases against those who are from underserved medical counties (because they are more likely to return there). Jefferson has a program where you can gain admission if you agree to practice Family Medicine in an underserved area. Its not about race, but about addressing the healthcare system.

These are also examples of social engineering. Medical schools are willing to accept less-qualified candidates who "promise" to serve underserved areas or go into general practice. Problem is, they can't be held to these promises. At any rate, this is another example of justifying poor behavior with more poor behavior. And like I said: if you're going to say that URMs belong in medical school because they "relate better to minority patients", then let's start actively boosting applications from whites, too, to work for white patients. (Note: I'm not actually advocating this; I'm just using it to illustrate the silliness of that mentality.)

This is what boggles my mind. AA is clearly race-based. But the supporters pretend it's not; they dress it up with rationalizations and justifications. But you use those SAME rationalizations to promote whites/URMs, suddenly it's not right. That should tell you something immediately.

P.S. I should be more precise. You are correct that admissions are not based on score merit. But that is BECAUSE of AA, not the other way around. Because we have to admit lesser-qualified individuals, there must be a justification for that. Therefore, enter the nebulous, ill-defined, and inarguable world of "the well-rounded candidate" or "the candidate who contributes diversity to our school." Hey, I can't argue that some guy who was not qualified by test-score shouldn't belong here ...they must have a lot of "other" qualifications, right? It's a neat trick and one I wouldn't be against, except it happens to occur in the backdrop of AA. (In other words, I agree that scores DON'T define a person entirely, but to use that rationalization to accept people who, in reality, you want to meet some racial quota is a perversion of that concept.)

 

[thewzdoc]

But please, glimpse the other side of it so that we can understand each other better.

That's the point. I have "seen the other side". I have conceded that not all failure is the individual?s responsibility. I have interacted with children whose parents are completely disconnected from the child?s education.

I wish that the ?no child left behind? program would work?but I think it?s only compounding the problem.

My wife volunteers in my daughter?s class; there are 2 children that really shouldn?t be moved up to the next grade. She tries to work with them but the teacher waves her off telling her not to ?waste? too much time on 2 children. There are only 12 kids in her class but those 2 could take 90% of the teacher?s time. The teacher has an obligation to all the children. These kids will be moved up and will continue to be a drain on their new teacher and therefore the entire class. Are the kids slow?.no (according to my wife) they just lack discipline. This IS the parents responsibility.

 

[cher25]

My wife volunteers in my daughter?s class; there are 2 children that really shouldn?t be moved up to the next grade. She tries to work with them but the teacher waves her off telling her not to ?waste? too much time on 2 children. There are only 12 kids in her class but those 2 could take 90% of the teacher?s time. The teacher has an obligation to all the children. These kids will be moved up and will continue to be a drain on their new teacher and therefore the entire class. Are the kids slow?.no (according to my wife) they just lack discipline. This IS the parents responsibility.

You're right, it is. Unfortunately, not all parents are responsible and the school system shouldn't discriminate to try to fix the problems of a poor upbringing (or 'social engineer') as you put it. But should this child never move ahead in life because of poor parenting? Shall he suffer and repeat the same mistakes of the parent for generations and generations to come? Not just URMs but anyone in such a situation. I've known poor white people who are no different than the typical URM, and they don't benefit from AA. But they should based on their socioeconomic status. I feel that everyone should be accepted as 'whole' applicants, not just URMs. So in a sense, we're on the same page.

 

[Spitting Camel]

Oh so now a thread that discusses minorities need to end violently? WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY Spitting Camel? Do you want to talk about your hate? Gosh... you're so culturally insensitive! 😀

I love you, pete! You REALLY made me laugh out loud!

 

[thewzdoc]

You're right, it is. Unfortunately, not all parents are responsible and the school system shouldn't discriminate to try to fix the problems of a poor upbringing (or 'social engineer') as you put it. But should this child never move ahead in life because of poor parenting? Shall he suffer and repeat the same mistakes of the parent for generations and generations to come? Not just URMs but anyone in such a situation. I've known poor white people who are no different than the typical URM, and they don't benefit from AA. But they should based on their socioeconomic status. I feel that everyone should be accepted as 'whole' applicants, not just URMs. So in a sense, we're on the same page.

The parents are upper middle class?bad parenting is bad parenting. It doesn?t matter what socioeconomic level they are at. I don?t know a solution?.even if the school offered extra classes for these children the parents won?t take advantage of them (usually). There used to be school counselors that watched for this but I don?t know what they can do?can they force the parents to do a better job? The children suffer and then society has to pickup the pieces later in the child?s life.

 

[pathdr2b]

The parents are upper middle class?bad parenting is bad parenting. It doesn?t matter what socioeconomic level they are at. I don?t know a solution?.even if the school offered extra classes for these children the parents won?t take advantage of them (usually). There used to be school counselors that watched for this but I don?t know what they can do?can they force the parents to do a better job? The children suffer and then society has to pickup the pieces later in the child?s life.

Hey thewzdoc! I like that signature, Depression is anger without enthusiam". Is that yours? It's pretty funny!

 

[cache20033]

I posted a similar thread like this labeled "Can someone at Harvard verify this for me?" at the allopathic forum several months ago. You can check my profile and find it, though i don't think you'll find many responses.....anyways a member named HMS 05 pmed' me and told me that the person who posted those stats does attend her school. Apparently, the gentlemen was more than a just a soil expert, considering he designed a novel method of extracting nutrients from certain soils to get the most out of it or something like that (I forgot what she wrote)....he ended up getting a patent for it and is pretty much well off because of it...... according to her, he also does seem very intelligent and would never have guessed he scored that low on the MCAT...but then again, he's low score can be attributed to having English as a second language.........anyways, i saw this thread and knew exactly what it would entail and figured i would chime in so it wouldn't get out of hand, although it seems i've come a little to late.....

oh by the way, he's either the class president or head of some group there that sounded really important from what she wrote. She also said she was part of the AOA committee and his name was brought into consideration, but i don't think he made it?@#$

oh well, peace in the middle east

 

[jlee9531]

I posted a similar thread like this labeled "Can Anyone at Harvard verify this?" at the allopathic forum several months ago.....a member named HMS 05 pmed' me and told me that the person who posted those stats does attend her school. Apparently, the gentlemen was more than a just a soil expert, considering he designed a novel method of extracting nutrients from certain soils to get the most out of it or something like that (I forgot what she wrote)....he ended up getting a patent for it and is pretty much well off because of it...... according to her, he also does seem very intelligent and would never have guessed he scored that low on the MCAT...but then again, he's low score can be attributed to having English as a second language.........anyways, i saw this thread and knew exactly what it would entail and figured i would chime in so it wouldn't get out of hand, although it seems i've come a little to late.....

oh by the way, he's either the class president or head of some group there that sounded important from what she wrote

shows how foolish people can be by assuming the worst from a profile. thanks for the information. maybe it will help this thread RIP.

 

[merlin17]

oh by the way, he's either the class president or head of some group there that sounded really important from what she wrote. She also said she was part of the AOA committee and his name was brought into consideration, but i don't think he made it?@#$

oh well, peace in the middle east

pretty sure harvard doesn't have AOA

 

[coffeeluver]

This is no reason to admit people (of any race) who are unqualified. I mean, should I then say, "let's admit Joe Whiteman, who has a 2.7/24, because we need more physicians for the geriatric white population and studies have shown that white people will provide better health outcomes for white people." I doubt you would like that. If we start admitting people due to their racial makeup -- regardless of what some study shows to justify it -- that's still racism. If I somehow had a study that showed that whites provided superior care on average than URM grads and used that to justify shutting out URMs totally, would you accept that?

Do you know how to read? Like Hypersting said, this is not a meritocracy. If you can come up with a better system to balance out the disparity in healthcare, then you can whine all you want. As for now, your arguments are old...Blah...Blah...whites this....what if whites did this....blah....unfair....blah.

 

[thewzdoc]

Hey thewzdoc! I like that signature, Depression is anger without enthusiam". Is that yours? It's pretty funny!

.....I actually heard it in a standup routine......I don't remember who...probably George Carlin. 👍

My old line was:

You?re only paranoid if it?s not true?. (mine...all mine...not as funny though..)

 

[cache20033]

pretty sure harvard doesn't have AOA

you're actually misinformed....i know for 100% certainty that Harvard does have AOA...

 

[kinetic]

Do you know how to read? Like Hypersting said, this is not a meritocracy. If you can come up with a better system to balance out the disparity in healthcare, then you can whine all you want. As for now, your arguments are old...Blah...Blah...whites this....what if whites did this....blah....unfair....blah.

Do you know how to read? Like I said, this IS a meritocracy, save for the fact that we have decided to engage in social engineering. Why would I want to balance out a disparity in healthcare? What intrinsic reason is there to have ANY race in healthcare? Would we suffer if there were no white physicians? Or black physicians? Or Asian physicians? Or Hispanic physicians? No! The only people who care about the RACE of people getting into medical school or college are RACISTS. Blah...blah...blacks deserve this...blah...unfair...blah.

 

[leechy]

Hahahah....

Nice one, cache. I don't believe a word of it, of course, but it's darned funny. And the fact that the person you pm'ed you was called "HMS 05"... kind of a convenient name, but it gave you away 😉

And oh yes, the guy actually invented a new dirt nutrient extraction process, and is now head of some high profile student group, not exactly sure which, at harvard. Yup!

Props to ya for a good joke.

Anyway, I checked out both profiles that were on your thread entitled "Can you confirm this?" and the ages don't work out on the BYU guy's profile. He would have had to have gotten 2 degrees by age 19... that seems suspect. Not sure about the dirt dude either... his profile seems suspicious as well.

 

[Harps]

you're actually misinformed....i know for 100% certainty that Harvard does have AOA...

Harvard does NOT have AOA!

-Harps

 

[TheFlash]

Why can't we all sit in a big circle and sing along to Kumbaya as kinetic strums the melody on his banjo?

 

[leechy]

Harps is right... Harvard does not have AOA, and you can check the AOA chapter list to see:
http://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/PDFs/chapters_and_councillors.pdf

So much for "100% certainty".

[Ok, so I'm an anal fact-checker... or really bored... or both sorry 😛 ]

 

[hypersting]

These are also examples of social engineering. Medical schools are willing to accept less-qualified candidates who "promise" to serve underserved areas or go into general practice. Problem is, they can't be held to these promises. At any rate, this is another example of justifying poor behavior with more poor behavior. And like I said: if you're going to say that URMs belong in medical school because they "relate better to minority patients", then let's start actively boosting applications from whites, too, to work for white patients. (Note: I'm not actually advocating this; I'm just using it to illustrate the silliness of that mentality.)

You might not be advocating it, but I am. Rural WHITE applicants are recruited because they will be more effective in those areas than FMGs. You don't seem so vehementally opposed to this policy. AdComs take their mission seriously, they are determining the future of the profession they have chosen for their lives. Don't you think they are going to look out for the best interest of healthcare. The fact is that health outcomes of non-whites (URM lower than ORM) are lower than whites, in part due to the lack of physician representation. As a future physician, why are you against a policy that strengthens the very goal you are working towards? Both geographical and cultural quotas are trying to provide a more equal distribution of physicians. There's enough in America, just not in the right places.

P.S. I should be more precise. You are correct that admissions are not based on score merit. But that is BECAUSE of AA, not the other way around. inarguable world of "the well-rounded candidate" or "the candidate who contributes diversity to our school." Hey, I can't argue that some guy who was not qualified by test-score shouldn't belong here ...they must have a lot of "other" qualifications, right? It's a neat trick and one I wouldn't be against, except it happens to occur in the backdrop of AA. (In other words, I agree that scores DON'T define a person entirely, but to use that rationalization to accept people who, in reality, you want to meet some racial quota is a perversion of that concept.)

Thats certainly simplfying it a bit. It wouldn't be a pure meritocracy even if AA did not exist. Scores don't define a person in entirety, as you state, some people with lower stats will get in and some with higher rejected, irrespective of race. To link the two ("other" and AA) is more a matter of perspective than fact, since they aren't always linked. Its not like it goes straight GPA/MCAT and the only exception is URM. If you think it does, then on that point, we just disagree.

 

[hypersting]

Why would I want to balance out a disparity in healthcare?

Because your end goal is to become a physician. They serve the community by delivering healthcare.

The only people who care about the RACE of people getting into medical school or college are RACISTS. Blah...blah...blacks deserve this...blah...unfair...blah.

Actually the patients care too and isn't that why we are in this?

I think I have said my piece and you yours. Hopefully I will resist the urge to post again. I just wish more physicians and aspiring physicians took courses in public health.

 

[cache20033]

ha ha ha, no your right...i did try to spice up the gentleman just a little bit with the whole AOA thing...only because i thought it would stick into the faces of some of these posters who doesn't think he was qualified academically into doing well in med school (you can actually look at jlee's??? post right after mine where she quoted me on my original post, before i decided to do something stupid by editing and added that tidbit of a fib) i do very much apologize for that.....but for the rest of it, it actually is true and there is a member named HMS 05' just search for her name in the members section and you'll actually see she exists.....as far as doubting what she wrote to me, i cannot say it's true but would pretty much assume it is considering what a big help she has been to these forums and helping fellow SDN'ers out on how to study for boards this year.......i'm actually hoping she or any Harvard students chime in soon to verify it....in fact, just PM her, and i'm sure she'll answer any of your questions....take care....i'm sorry again (for getting caught heh heh 😀 )

 

[cache20033]

and go ahead and check that i posed this questioned around 3 months ago in my profile.....i have no reason to lie about it, i was curious just like the rest the original poster...

take care

 

[kinetic]

Because your end goal is to become a physician. They serve the community by delivering healthcare.

Yeah, that's right. Only white physicians can serve white patients and black physicians black patients. I forgot. That's what medicine really is about. Thanks for reminding me, though.

 

[cache20033]

although i don't want to beat to death the fact that i lied about the AOA at harvard...did this doctor lie on his resume or something (scroll down to the bottom at Dr. Steven Weiberger sp?)

http://www.educationupdate.com/archives/2002/april_02/htmls/med_alpha.html

in case the link doesn't show i'll post it down here with spaces in between that you just have to cut and edit yourself..

htt p:// www.education update.com/archives/2002/april_02/htmls/ med_alpha.html