jahi mcmath update

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What is the part of the video when the limp arm falls down supposed to mean?
 
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I stopped following this story as soon as that girl was transferred to the facility the first time. What initially infuriated me was the part where the court began forcing doctors to ignore standards of care and treat a brain dead patient. Supposedly the parents were trying to get a court order forcing the doctors to place a Trach + PEG. Thank God that didn't go through.
 
I think it's important to note two things about this case.

First the reports that her body would "liquefy" (brain, guts, etc.) were bull****. We as physicians shouldn't be overly dramatic when presenting facts to people especially when we're not certain exactly what's going to happen. We should most definitely avoid using words like "inevitable" because when we're proven wrong we just look like a bunch of dinguses. The truth is that a braindead 13-year-old's body can remain on vital function support for potentially decades with appropriate round-the-clock care. It's not a pretty. But it can be done.

Second this underscores the tremendous distrust that patients and family have when we tell them something they don't want to hear. As corollary look at what Michael Schumacher is going through, which I see as a case in the media that was handled much better than the doctors involved in Jahi's care.
 
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Except that Schumacher was/is just semi-vegetable, never brain-dead.
 
Is Jahi truly braindead? That is, no brainstem or above function?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...d-moving-command-claiming-proves-s-alive.html

And the point about Schumacher is that the treating physicians at Grenoble were always more circumspect and cautious about proclamations regarding his prognosis.

I might have said this before (or elsewhere) that what has been most baffling to me about the McMath case is how a 13-year-old got to 90kg and required this drastic type of surgery in the first place. How come we're not talking about that?
 
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BuzzPhreed said:
I might have said this before (or elsewhere) that what has been most baffling to me about the McMath case is how a 13-year-old got to 90kg and required this drastic type of surgery in the first place. How come we're not talking about that?
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Because it's not politically correct. The same way some people cannot be called "obese"; they are "muscular".

Orwell could not have imagined it better.
 
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I forgot the best one: fat is beautiful.
 
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I always find that the most difficult cases I have to deal with as a physician in some way involve either personal patient and/or family guilt. The second most challenging are a product of just outright stupidity. I think both represent a large part of what's at play here.
 
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A twitch of the fingers from the spinal cord as signs of life...smh
 
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This poor girl suffered. These are the kinds of cases that bother me the most.
 
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eikenhein said:
well she didn't suffer. she was dead. but to have her body treated in this way was certainly futile and undignified.
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Poor choice of words on my part, what I meant to convey was her body was subjected to so much unnecessary intervention.
And here we are all these years later with the exact same outcome had they just let her go at the beginning like her doctors advised.
 
“the Oakland girl died late last week when an operation to treat an intestinal issue led to excessive bleeding and liver failure”


“a judge last year ruled that it was up to a jury to determine whether the girl was still alive.”

Two things that I have problems with.
1. So they were still intervening after years and waiting for something to happen?
2. We are letting jury to determine the girl was dead or alive?

How did we come to this point? As a society, as a profession? Spent dollars to care for a dead body? When her organs can probably saved many children during that time who are “really dead” by now. Or the fact, jury to “determine” she’s alive or dead? It should not be an opinion, it should not be decided by jury votes. She’s either dead or not dead. I am going to contest any written/oral board questions regarding brain death criteria.

“The patient in my opinion is not dead.”


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.m...s-in-civil-case-against-hospital-doctors/amp/

“Why do you get to say my child is dead?”
 
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IMGASMD said:
“the Oakland girl died late last week when an operation to treat an intestinal issue led to excessive bleeding and liver failure”


“a judge last year ruled that it was up to a jury to determine whether the girl was still alive.”

Two things that I have problems with.
1. So they were still intervening after years and waiting for something to happen?
2. We are letting jury to determine the girl was dead or alive?

How did we come to this point? As a society, as a profession? Spent dollars to care for a dead body? When her organs can probably saved many children during that time who are “really dead” by now. Or the fact, jury to “determine” she’s alive or dead? It should not be an opinion, it should not be decided by jury votes. She’s either dead or not dead. I am going to contest any written/oral board questions regarding brain dead criteria.

“The patient in my opinion is not dead.”
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shame on the legal system and shame on the judge for letting this happen. this judge should be publicly chastised by the medical association. we live in a society where a layman's opinion is held higher than the knowledge of a specialist. truly ridiculous beyond belief.
 
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The conspiracy theorist in me wonders is some scum bag lawyer convinced this family to hang on for a bigger settlement/win in court. More money for them=more money for the lawyer.
He even says it in the article, the award is likely to be much lower now that she’s gone.
 
Well apparently brain dead people can live for years on life support.
Got me wondering if there are any other cases like this. Interesting.
If this was a private facility, were the tax payers on the hook I wonder?
 
She apparently was on Medicaid in NJ.

“When the family moved Jahi to New Jersey it was able to get free Medicaid healthcare coverage, because the state still recognized her as alive.”
 
IMGASMD said:
She apparently was on Medicaid in NJ.

“When the family moved Jahi to New Jersey it was able to get free Medicaid healthcare coverage, because the state still recognized her as alive.”
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OMG,
Well that is terrible. Wow! Well guess NJ got a surplus of money to waste.
 
IMGASMD said:
She apparently was on Medicaid in NJ.

“When the family moved Jahi to New Jersey it was able to get free Medicaid healthcare coverage, because the state still recognized her as alive.”
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Interesting definition of life.
 
Never knew the Bible Belt was so high up North.
 
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FFP said:
Never knew the Bible Belt was so high up North.
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There (NJ), in this case, it's only the first few books of the bible...this 'concession' to the uneducated and bigoted is a reminder for us that belief in the supernatural -- even in the Jesus USA -- is not limited to the superstars (christians, mormons). We are forced to accept rejection of reality, truth, and science from all 'faiths' (in this case, Judaism).

That said, I am still uncertain when death occurs. I remain committed to the current definitions of death based on our best understanding of death from an empirical standpoint (considering a humanistic standpoint). That is, I am aghast that a court would reject OUR BEST estimation.

HH
 
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The 'reply' and 'quote' functions seem to not be working currently.
The following is in reply to FFP's post asking, "What has this to do with Judaism"?

What Does It Mean to Die?
It wasn’t until they landed that she learned they were in New Jersey, one of only two states—New York is the other—where families can reject the concept of brain death if it violates their religious beliefs. The laws in both states were written to accommodate Orthodox Jews, some of whom believe, citing the Talmud, that the presence of breath signifies life.

HH
 
Hamhock said:
The 'reply' and 'quote' functions seem to not be working currently.
The following is in reply to FFP's post asking, "What has this to do with Judaism"?

What Does It Mean to Die?
It wasn’t until they landed that she learned they were in New Jersey, one of only two states—New York is the other—where families can reject the concept of brain death if it violates their religious beliefs. The laws in both states were written to accommodate Orthodox Jews, some of whom believe, citing the Talmud, that the presence of breath signifies life.

HH
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I deleted my post almost immediately because I realized that must have been the answer.
 
Hamhock said:
The 'reply' and 'quote' functions seem to not be working currently.
The following is in reply to FFP's post asking, "What has this to do with Judaism"?

What Does It Mean to Die?
It wasn’t until they landed that she learned they were in New Jersey, one of only two states—New York is the other—where families can reject the concept of brain death if it violates their religious beliefs. The laws in both states were written to accommodate Orthodox Jews, some of whom believe, citing the Talmud, that the presence of breath signifies life.

HH
Click to expand...

So every time I turn on a ventilator to do a check, I am giving birth to a new being
 
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Hamhock said:
The 'reply' and 'quote' functions seem to not be working currently.
The following is in reply to FFP's post asking, "What has this to do with Judaism"?

What Does It Mean to Die?
It wasn’t until they landed that she learned they were in New Jersey, one of only two states—New York is the other—where families can reject the concept of brain death if it violates their religious beliefs. The laws in both states were written to accommodate Orthodox Jews, some of whom believe, citing the Talmud, that the presence of breath signifies life.

HH
Click to expand...
Except the breaths are artificial and delivered via ventilator. I can ventilate a balloon, does that make it alive?
 
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