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Jailed pharmacist follow up.

Thumper17

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    From what I know of sterile compounding, there should have been a bottle of sterile water that had been opened on the tray when the pharmacist checked it, along with the syringe used (set to the proper volume).

    Anyone with more experience, feel free to weigh in.

    I ALWAYS leave the solution I used to dilute the drug with with a syringe pulled back with the volume used, then the diluted drug, and then the syringe showing how much of the drug was used.

    A 0.9% NaCl vial and a 4mEq/mL NaCl vial are about as different as you can get in every way. Different volumes, different material, different colors, warnings galore on the concentrated vials....

    He should have caught the mistake, but if for some reason it was the hospitals policy that the diluent was not required in checking a compounded product....management should be taking this heat and not him.
     
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    Thumper17

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      In this case, the technician prepared the chemotherapy dose using 23.4 percent saline instead of 0.9 percent saline. An empty saline bag next to the finished chemotherapy preparation suggested that the dose had been prepared using the proper base solution. ~drugtopics
      __________________________
      This problem could have been prevented by having two pharmacist check chemo and always mixing drugs in D5W if it is compatible for pediatrics. The 23.4% vial is a giant red flag if you see it out, unless you have a bag of sterile water out trying to make something from scratch. The 23.4% vials usually come larger then a normal 10 cc 0.9% NS vial too.

      WOW. I don't see how the pharmacist could be liable AT ALL in this situation. If the tech put out NS and didn't use NS, it is all on them. Scary.

      Edit: The major problem with this case to me comes down to technician work assignments. Not any tech should be allowed to work in the IV room, it should be the best and most trusted techs. Whatever is needed, more training, more pay, etc. the techs in the IV room need to be of the highest caliber possible.
       
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      DrPepsi

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        I know this is a different subject but Jerome Ersland's trial in Oklahoma has been rescheduled to September 13th. He is the pharmacist accused of murder after killing a robber that came into his pharmacy. The murder aspect stems from the fact that he killed the intruder while they were on the ground.
         

        joetrisman

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          I know this is a different subject but Jerome Ersland's trial in Oklahoma has been rescheduled to September 13th. He is the pharmacist accused of murder after killing a robber that came into his pharmacy. The murder aspect stems from the fact that he killed the intruder while they were on the ground.
          Kill or be killed. Even going for neutralizing them would allow for a case against you for disabling them for life or something. I'd done the same thing.
           

          aboveliquidice

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            I agree. As conservative as Oklahoma is, I really doubt a jury would convict him.

            You might want to watch the video...

            I am both a former Marine and a current soldier - I know an execution when I see one. Did the kid deserve it? Probably - but that doesn't change the fact that the pharmacist had the situation well under control and the kid (with no gun) was no longer a threat. He is going down for a lesser crime via plea deal or something of the nature (speculation).
             

            womp

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              You might want to watch the video...

              I am both a former Marine and a current soldier - I know an execution when I see one. Did the kid deserve it? Probably - but that doesn't change the fact that the pharmacist had the situation well under control and the kid (with no gun) was no longer a threat. He is going down for a lesser crime via plea deal or something of the nature (speculation).

              Here's the surveillance video:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDqoY5Cu5-Q&feature=related

              It was definitely an execution. The pharmacist had already shot the unarmed kid who is lying on the ground. The pharmacist then returns, gets a different gun and shoots the kid 5 more times in the stomach.

              The first shot was self-defense, not the ones after though.
               

              Ekuj

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                Here's the surveillance video:
                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDqoY5Cu5-Q&feature=related

                It was definitely an execution. The pharmacist had already shot the unarmed kid who is lying on the ground. The pharmacist then returns, gets a different gun and shoots the kid 5 more times in the stomach.

                The first shot was self-defense, not the ones after though.
                Wow, a lot of the comments on that video seem to be supporting the pharmacist.
                 

                aboveliquidice

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                  Wow, a lot of the comments on that video seem to be supporting the pharmacist.

                  I do too... I have no idea what he was really like, but it isn't hard to imagine a hometown pharmacist who is the pillar of the community. He works hard and takes care of his employees. He didn't go looking for trouble, it came knocking on his door.

                  The situation was handled without compassion, as it probably should have been. 50 yrs ago, this guy remains a hero. Nowadays, all of us are held accountable for our actions. This includes taking the law into your own hands.

                  To me, this guy is still a hero - but you cannot execute people. You have to leave that part to the authorities.
                   

                  DrPepsi

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                    You might want to watch the video...

                    I am both a former Marine and a current soldier - I know an execution when I see one. Did the kid deserve it? Probably - but that doesn't change the fact that the pharmacist had the situation well under control and the kid (with no gun) was no longer a threat. He is going down for a lesser crime via plea deal or something of the nature (speculation).

                    Judging by the video I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. You have no idea if that kid is going for a gun or what may look like a weapon.
                     

                    Ackj

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                      Here's the surveillance video:
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDqoY5Cu5-Q&feature=related

                      It was definitely an execution. The pharmacist had already shot the unarmed kid who is lying on the ground. The pharmacist then returns, gets a different gun and shoots the kid 5 more times in the stomach.

                      The first shot was self-defense, not the ones after though.
                      We've discussed this at length before. You can't tell what the guy on the ground is doing, the rph had been robbed in the past, not to mention that you're in a life or death situation and not really stopping to think about every step.

                      And wow, that youtube video's commentary is full of awful grammar.
                       
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                      Doctor M

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                        This is just horrible...As an owner, i will do whatever it takes to protect the staff and keep us safe...That robber would be on the ground...How the hell am I suppose to know if he has a weapon or not...No normal person comes into a pharmacy waiving a weapon...I assume he's here to harm us...The only thing this case does is make one think 'if someone comes in here to rob me, should i fight back and pull my .38 or just comply with their demands'...I would think that one must be confident in what they are gonna do before anything like this happens...This just puts doubt in ones head...gee, if i pull the weapon, will i go to jail??Too many 'what ifs'...
                         

                        owlegrad

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                          This is just horrible...As an owner, i will do whatever it takes to protect the staff and keep us safe...That robber would be on the ground...How the hell am I suppose to know if he has a weapon or not...No normal person comes into a pharmacy waiving a weapon...I assume he's here to harm us...The only thing this case does is make one think 'if someone comes in here to rob me, should i fight back and pull my .38 or just comply with their demands'...I would think that one must be confident in what they are gonna do before anything like this happens...This just puts doubt in ones head...gee, if i pull the weapon, will i go to jail??Too many 'what ifs'...

                          I would completely agree with you, except he walks around the guy to get a different gun. How concerned can he be if he thinks he has time to change guns? Sad situation all around.
                           

                          Doctor M

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                            I would completely agree with you, except he walks around the guy to get a different gun. How concerned can he be if he thinks he has time to change guns? Sad situation all around.

                            No matter, the robber came in first looking for trouble...I cant say i would be in the right state of mind if I were in that pharmacists shoes...None of us could...I mean come on...you'd be going from filling an 80 years olds rx for plavix to Rambo in a matter of seconds...We arent trained for that sort of scenario...The adrenaline pumping and i dont know about the rest of you, but ive been in fight of flight situations and the scenarios occur so quickly...Little time to think...Im disgusted by the overall situation...I cant say that I would have done it differently...If its between my employees and my safety versus some disgusting hoodlums life, well, I pick the former, every single time...thats just me I guess...
                             

                            Old Timer

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                              No matter, the robber came in first looking for trouble...I cant say i would be in the right state of mind if I were in that pharmacists shoes...None of us could...I mean come on...you'd be going from filling an 80 years olds rx for plavix to Rambo in a matter of seconds...We arent trained for that sort of scenario...The adrenaline pumping and i dont know about the rest of you, but ive been in fight of flight situations and the scenarios occur so quickly...Little time to think...Im disgusted by the overall situation...I cant say that I would have done it differently...If its between my employees and my safety versus some disgusting hoodlums life, well, I pick the former, every single time...thats just me I guess...

                              That's not the law. Once he was down on the ground and the pharmacist stepped over him twice, he is no longer a threat. If he points a gun at you and you shoot him 35 times as long as you don't have to re-load, you are fine. Once the threat ceases, it's murder. It may not be your version of right, but it's the law.
                               

                              owlegrad

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                                No matter, the robber came in first looking for trouble...I cant say i would be in the right state of mind if I were in that pharmacists shoes...None of us could...I mean come on...you'd be going from filling an 80 years olds rx for plavix to Rambo in a matter of seconds...We arent trained for that sort of scenario...The adrenaline pumping and i dont know about the rest of you, but ive been in fight of flight situations and the scenarios occur so quickly...Little time to think...Im disgusted by the overall situation...I cant say that I would have done it differently...If its between my employees and my safety versus some disgusting hoodlums life, well, I pick the former, every single time...thats just me I guess...

                                Of course it's not just you. :p

                                But I don't know if he was truly choosing between his life and the disgusting hoodlums life. If you think your life is in danger do you step over/around the perceived threat, with your back turned, and change weapons? I just don't know. Maybe. I can't say what's right here. Should the man lose his lively hood just because he shot some punk six times with two different guns? Hard to say from the video.

                                He should have lost that security tape before the cops got there. This would be so much easier to call if you couldn't see as much of it as you can in the video. It's hard to watch that video and conclude that his actions are 100% justified.
                                 

                                Ackj

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                                  No matter, the robber came in first looking for trouble...I cant say i would be in the right state of mind if I were in that pharmacists shoes...None of us could...I mean come on...you'd be going from filling an 80 years olds rx for plavix to Rambo in a matter of seconds...We arent trained for that sort of scenario...The adrenaline pumping and i dont know about the rest of you, but ive been in fight of flight situations and the scenarios occur so quickly...Little time to think...Im disgusted by the overall situation...I cant say that I would have done it differently...If its between my employees and my safety versus some disgusting hoodlums life, well, I pick the former, every single time...thats just me I guess...
                                  I think any jury should agree on these points. In light of the sudden stress, you're not going to think out everything, you're going to react according to survival instincts, which I think he did.
                                   

                                  Trankuil

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                                    That's not the law. Once he was down on the ground and the pharmacist stepped over him twice, he is no longer a threat. If he points a gun at you and you shoot him 35 times as long as you don't have to re-load, you are fine. Once the threat ceases, it's murder. It may not be your version of right, but it's the law.

                                    As much as I hate it, hes right.
                                     
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                                    rxlea

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                                      Have any of you ever sat on a jury for an assault or murder case? Because, trust me when I say that there are strict laws surrounding "perceived threat"/apprehension or fear of injury or death, and the definition of assault vs aggravated assault (and the various degrees of homicide). There are many additional details that we probably don't know about this case.

                                      I sat on a jury for attempted murder once. It sucked in so many ways but it is sometimes the details that matter.
                                       

                                      johnconner

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                                        As much as I hate it, hes right.


                                        I don't think so. He only stepped over him once and that was to get the second gun. He didn't step over him, just walk past him. Maybe it was out of self defense if his first gun was out of bullets. And I'm not convinced that the threat was over. Just because someone is down on the ground, doesn't mean that they don't have a gun in their pocket and can still shoot at you. All it takes is one shot to kill you.


                                        This is why we need bullet proof glass in the pharmacy.
                                         
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                                        Doctor M

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                                          That's not the law. Once he was down on the ground and the pharmacist stepped over him twice, he is no longer a threat. If he points a gun at you and you shoot him 35 times as long as you don't have to re-load, you are fine. Once the threat ceases, it's murder. It may not be your version of right, but it's the law.

                                          never said it was...just trying to put myself in that rph shoes...ive never been in that situation but i do know that i would have taken him down...anything after that, i dont know what my insticts would be...
                                           

                                          Old Timer

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                                            I don't think so. He only stepped over him once and that was to get the second gun. He didn't step over him, just walk past him. Maybe it was out of self defense if his first gun was out of bullets. And I'm not convinced that the threat was over. Just because someone is down on the ground, doesn't mean that they don't have a gun in their pocket and can still shoot at you. All it takes is one shot to kill you.


                                            This is why we need bullet proof glass in the pharmacy.

                                            He stepped over him twice. Once to chase the second perp outside and take a shot at him. The he came back inside, stepped over him again, got the cannon out and walker over to him and executed him. This is such an easy murder conviction.
                                             

                                            Old Timer

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                                              never said it was...just trying to put myself in that rph shoes...ive never been in that situation but i do know that i would have taken him down...anything after that, i dont know what my insticts would be...

                                              This first shot is instinct. Getting a second gun and walking up to a person laying on his back and pumping 5 rounds into him is not instinct. It's murder.
                                               

                                              FruitFly

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                                                He stepped over him twice. Once to chase the second perp outside and take a shot at him. The he came back inside, stepped over him again, got the cannon out and walker over to him and executed him. This is such an easy murder conviction.

                                                Yep, that's when it went beyond self-defense to revenge and vigilantism, which was not within his right.
                                                 

                                                Doctor M

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                                                  This first shot is instinct. Getting a second gun and walking up to a person laying on his back and pumping 5 rounds into him is not instinct. It's murder.

                                                  Two Tampa cops shot and killed yesterday..."routine traffic stop", had the suspect in custody...Im sure at this point the cops thought they had him, but no, the suspect reached into his cargo pants and shot them both in the face. That is Murder...Knowing what I know today about our judicial system i would try to refrain from killing the suspect...but honestly, i would not feel safe until the suspect(s) were dead, no longer a threat to my employees and myself...It was probably rage after instinct...
                                                   

                                                  Doctor M

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                                                    That's not the law. Once he was down on the ground and the pharmacist stepped over him twice, he is no longer a threat. If he points a gun at you and you shoot him 35 times as long as you don't have to re-load, you are fine. Once the threat ceases, it's murder. It may not be your version of right, but it's the law.

                                                    Yeah, i guess criminals have rights...Innocent til proven guilty....
                                                     

                                                    Old Timer

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                                                      Yeah, i guess criminals have rights...Innocent til proven guilty....

                                                      Please don't put me in the position of defending these criminal armed robbers. But we cannot dehumanize them. Once you start to dehumanize them as am excuse to kill them, then it's a very short trip to here:

                                                      r230762_921314.jpg
                                                       

                                                      PumpkinSmasher

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                                                        Two Tampa cops shot and killed yesterday..."routine traffic stop", had the suspect in custody...Im sure at this point the cops thought they had him, but no, the suspect reached into his cargo pants and shot them both in the face. That is Murder...Knowing what I know today about our judicial system i would try to refrain from killing the suspect...but honestly, i would not feel safe until the suspect(s) were dead, no longer a threat to my employees and myself...It was probably rage after instinct...

                                                        I cried when I saw this on the news...protectors of the peace, sons, fathers, husbands, and brothers. There is a special place in hell for this guy.

                                                        Florida deals with cop killers in their own way:

                                                        http://crime.about.com/b/2006/10/02/florida-cop-killer-shot-68-times.htm
                                                         
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                                                          "Jerry won on all counts. The law was changed. The pharmacist who failed to supervise the technician was convicted. Jerry and his soon-to-be ex-wife, Kelly, won a $7 million settlement from Rainbow Babies & Children's Hospital."
                                                          ...
                                                          "After Emily's death, Chris and Kelly Jerry's marriage crumbled. In early 2008, she filed for divorce. It is expected to become final this month.

                                                          Jerry admitted he had trouble coping with the loss of his daughter. Painesville police arrested him late last year for possession of marijuana and resisting arrest. His case was diverted to a mental health court for adjudication.

                                                          His wife took out a court protection order against him, which he violated once.

                                                          He sought psychological counseling as he searched for a way to work through his turmoil. But he never forgot his daughter's screams and her pain. So he decided that to help himself he had to begin to help others.
                                                          "

                                                          http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/06/chris_jerry_whose_daughter_emi.html

                                                          http://emilyjerryfoundation.org/chr...e-starts-foundation-to-push-for-national-law/

                                                          That is very sad to hear he lost his daughter because of a dispensing error and him and his wife are going through a divorce, but a $7 MILLION settlement? I wonder how much of that is going to attorneys.
                                                           

                                                          KUMoose

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                                                            This first shot is instinct. Getting a second gun and walking up to a person laying on his back and pumping 5 rounds into him is not instinct. It's murder.


                                                            QFT.

                                                            The video shows that:
                                                            1) The pharmacist in question walked in front of him multiple times without outward signs of protective measures: didn't train the gun on him, didn't move to protect himself, heck he even walked to the back (thus exposing his vulnerable back) to the kid on the ground.

                                                            2) That there's at least 10' of space between the kid and the back area (and presumably the rest of the staff)

                                                            3) That there was not significant movement, based on when the pharmacist stepped over the kid the first time and subsequent times, towards the back area

                                                            4) that the kid did not, at the initial point, have a visible weapon. In fact you can clearly see the kid is using the other guy as a shield the whole time and is taking a defensive posture.

                                                            Without westlaw, I'm unable to completely verify the statutes but most states require immediate, tangible, harm as a precursor to justifiable homicide. The fact that the kid is down, makes no (apparent) movement to the back area and there is both space and cover available, disproves the immediate, tangible harm part of justifiable homicide.

                                                            Further, for the people saying it's completely justified because he came in to rob the store, why are you pharmacists? Why really are you in the health care field? Where'd your empathy and compassion go? In no way does this excuse the kid or robbery, but really where's the bigger crime here? The loss of a few hundred (or even thousand) dollars of stuff or a human life.
                                                             

                                                            Doctor M

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                                                              Please don't put me in the position of defending these criminal armed robbers. But we cannot dehumanize them. Once you start to dehumanize them as am excuse to kill them, then it's a very short trip to here:

                                                              r230762_921314.jpg

                                                              i wouldnt be the one that started the dehumanizing....a bullet in my head from a criminal would dehumanize me oldtimer....
                                                               

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                                                                QFT.



                                                                Further, for the people saying it's completely justified because he came in to rob the store, why are you pharmacists? Why really are you in the health care field? Where'd your empathy and compassion go? In no way does this excuse the kid or robbery, but really where's the bigger crime here? The loss of a few hundred (or even thousand) dollars of stuff or a human life.


                                                                Now that we've let the Frenchman voice his opinion, anybody with a set of cajones care to weigh in?

                                                                300px-Death_Wish_4_-_The_Crackdown_(1987).jpg
                                                                 

                                                                Ilikechemicals

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                                                                  Further, for the people saying it's completely justified because he came in to rob the store, why are you pharmacists? Why really are you in the health care field? Where'd your empathy and compassion go? In no way does this excuse the kid or robbery, but really where's the bigger crime here? The loss of a few hundred (or even thousand) dollars of stuff or a human life.

                                                                  My empathy would end right where the begining of the gun being pointed at me began. Are you really trying to say that during a situation where your life is being threatened you would be feeling sorry for the guy threatening you? I'm sure your wife and kids would be real proud of you and probably say in your eulogy.

                                                                  As for murder...it does look awfully bad that he got another gun stood over the guy and shot him 5 times. But like Dr. M said, for anyone who actually has been in life and death situation you are definately not thinking clearly.
                                                                   

                                                                  Sparda29

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                                                                    QFT.

                                                                    The video shows that:
                                                                    1) The pharmacist in question walked in front of him multiple times without outward signs of protective measures: didn't train the gun on him, didn't move to protect himself, heck he even walked to the back (thus exposing his vulnerable back) to the kid on the ground.

                                                                    2) That there's at least 10' of space between the kid and the back area (and presumably the rest of the staff)

                                                                    3) That there was not significant movement, based on when the pharmacist stepped over the kid the first time and subsequent times, towards the back area

                                                                    4) that the kid did not, at the initial point, have a visible weapon. In fact you can clearly see the kid is using the other guy as a shield the whole time and is taking a defensive posture.

                                                                    Without westlaw, I'm unable to completely verify the statutes but most states require immediate, tangible, harm as a precursor to justifiable homicide. The fact that the kid is down, makes no (apparent) movement to the back area and there is both space and cover available, disproves the immediate, tangible harm part of justifiable homicide.

                                                                    Further, for the people saying it's completely justified because he came in to rob the store, why are you pharmacists? Why really are you in the health care field? Where'd your empathy and compassion go? In no way does this excuse the kid or robbery, but really where's the bigger crime here? The loss of a few hundred (or even thousand) dollars of stuff or a human life.

                                                                    law_abiding_citizen.jpg
                                                                     

                                                                    xiphoid2010

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                                                                      The interesting thing is what if the robber didn't die... let's see, the robber probably gets free healthcare, gets convicted for attempted robbery (unarmed), spends maybe 6 months in jail, calls all his homies and go cap the pharmacist's ass together. Even if he doesn't, the threat of it would mean the pharmacist probably has to close shop. Yeah, that would be much more fair.

                                                                      Not saying what the pharmacist did was right. But since the camera did not show what the kid was doing, I'm sure it'll be argued in court there was a threat.
                                                                       

                                                                      Passion4Sci

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                                                                        I am having a hard time siding with Ersland on this one. I go back and forth often in the matter, from Doctor M's standpoint, to how Ice feels about it.

                                                                        The soldier in me knows that I've squeezed off more rounds than were necessary to neutralize a threat in a hostile environment. But, at the same time, I just don't think an op. in OIF is even remotely close to what is happening here in this pharmacy. At least not as far as we can see in the video.

                                                                        The civilian in me, and indeed the aspiring pharmacist, understands the empathy/compassion argument as well. The threat was obviously neutral. No movement is visible from the assailant and truth be told he was probably sputtering, voiding his bowels, and otherwise in the throes of death (not a pretty sight, movies do not ever get the portrayal of this quite right...) and generally just really dicked up.

                                                                        I don't see how this is at all similar to the FL case Doctor M is bringing into this. If those FL cops had shot the guy prior to being shot, I could get it. But their assailant, unfortunately, was not otherwise disabled and certainly was able to retaliate. But, c'mon, watching that surveillance footage, this dude laying on the ground dying is not even the same thing as a dude who just got stopped at 2 AM for a traffic violation!

                                                                        I believe that the guy Ersland shot wasn't even the one carrying the firearm. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am not wrong, Ersland should've seen that the assailant had no weapon. He instead returned to his arsenal, retrieved another firearm, and went at the guy nearly point blank range.

                                                                        Feel for him? Absolutely. Does carrying a firearm, though, warrant you being held to a higher standard? Definitely! If you're willing to carry the power to take life in a holster you'd better damn well be able to handle the responsibility. Ersland certainly demonstrated a lack of that in this video.

                                                                        The one thing grating most on me is how Ersland claimed PTSD and war-time trauma that caused his actions, yet he was never deployed to Desert Storm OR Shield, and instead spent his "overseas" time "in support" of the operations in Germany. Give. Me. A. Break.

                                                                        but, like I said, I'm on the fence, because I certainly see it from all the sides. The guy holding the gun being shot at, the guy doing the shooting, the poor guy who had the wrong friends (As I believe it turned out the one that got AWAY was the real villain between the 2 of them...), and the jury that has to decide what to do with this guy.

                                                                        But one thing is for sure. He's a liar. And jurors do not like that one bit particularly when the lying involves a possible motive (hey, he had a psychotic break right, he was in war, crazy crap happens in war, so you go nuts occasionally, right???)

                                                                        JUST showing the video, it's an execution. But there might be other factors, off camera, going on that we can't see... like what's happening in the Messerley trial in L.A. right now (The ex-BART cop that shot a guy who was laying on the ground accidentally, killing him). The trial defense attorneys are all on record saying hey, if you show THE RAW VIDEO to 10 people at least 9 will say he's down right guilty of homicide... but there are other factors involved, unbeknownst to any ol' watcher of said video.

                                                                        So, we just don't know all there is to know.

                                                                        Dammit this really has me flustered.
                                                                         

                                                                        Doctor M

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                                                                          I am having a hard time siding with Ersland on this one. I go back and forth often in the matter, from Doctor M's standpoint, to how Ice feels about it.

                                                                          The soldier in me knows that I've squeezed off more rounds than were necessary to neutralize a threat in a hostile environment. But, at the same time, I just don't think an op. in OIF is even remotely close to what is happening here in this pharmacy. At least not as far as we can see in the video.

                                                                          The civilian in me, and indeed the aspiring pharmacist, understands the empathy/compassion argument as well. The threat was obviously neutral. No movement is visible from the assailant and truth be told he was probably sputtering, voiding his bowels, and otherwise in the throes of death (not a pretty sight, movies do not ever get the portrayal of this quite right...) and generally just really dicked up.

                                                                          I don't see how this is at all similar to the FL case Doctor M is bringing into this. If those FL cops had shot the guy prior to being shot, I could get it. But their assailant, unfortunately, was not otherwise disabled and certainly was able to retaliate. But, c'mon, watching that surveillance footage, this dude laying on the ground dying is not even the same thing as a dude who just got stopped at 2 AM for a traffic violation!

                                                                          I believe that the guy Ersland shot wasn't even the one carrying the firearm. Please correct me if I'm wrong. If I am not wrong, Ersland should've seen that the assailant had no weapon. He instead returned to his arsenal, retrieved another firearm, and went at the guy nearly point blank range.

                                                                          Feel for him? Absolutely. Does carrying a firearm, though, warrant you being held to a higher standard? Definitely! If you're willing to carry the power to take life in a holster you'd better damn well be able to handle the responsibility. Ersland certainly demonstrated a lack of that in this video.

                                                                          The one thing grating most on me is how Ersland claimed PTSD and war-time trauma that caused his actions, yet he was never deployed to Desert Storm OR Shield, and instead spent his "overseas" time "in support" of the operations in Germany. Give. Me. A. Break.

                                                                          but, like I said, I'm on the fence, because I certainly see it from all the sides. The guy holding the gun being shot at, the guy doing the shooting, the poor guy who had the wrong friends (As I believe it turned out the one that got AWAY was the real villain between the 2 of them...), and the jury that has to decide what to do with this guy.

                                                                          But one thing is for sure. He's a liar. And jurors do not like that one bit particularly when the lying involves a possible motive (hey, he had a psychotic break right, he was in war, crazy crap happens in war, so you go nuts occasionally, right???)

                                                                          JUST showing the video, it's an execution. But there might be other factors, off camera, going on that we can't see... like what's happening in the Messerley trial in L.A. right now (The ex-BART cop that shot a guy who was laying on the ground accidentally, killing him). The trial defense attorneys are all on record saying hey, if you show THE RAW VIDEO to 10 people at least 9 will say he's down right guilty of homicide... but there are other factors involved, unbeknownst to any ol' watcher of said video.

                                                                          So, we just don't know all there is to know.

                                                                          Dammit this really has me flustered.

                                                                          I was just defining murder, thats all...the fl case has nothing to do with this case...In my eyes, the pharmacist was not thinking clearly, he was probably scared ****less...Again, I do not know what I would have done...I do know that in todays court systems, i would be going to jail if i were to follow what that pharmacist did...but i still dont think in my eyes its murder...We just dont know what he was thinking...And the dude laying on the ground should be on the ground...Dead? In my eyes, yes...Anyone coming at me with any intension of causing harm, I will wanna take down, natural insticnt...anyway possible...
                                                                           
                                                                          Last edited:

                                                                          Doctor M

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                                                                          1. Pharmacist
                                                                            The interesting thing is what if the robber didn't die... let's see, the robber probably gets free healthcare, gets convicted for attempted robbery (unarmed), spends maybe 6 months in jail, calls all his homies and go cap the pharmacist's ass together. Even if he doesn't, the threat of it would mean the pharmacist probably has to close shop. Yeah, that would be much more fair.

                                                                            Not saying what the pharmacist did was right. But since the camera did not show what the kid was doing, I'm sure it'll be argued in court there was a threat.

                                                                            So wait, not only did he barge in for attempted robbery and murder (i dont care if he didnt have a weapon) but if he lived he would have soaked up tax paying money also...thats just great...
                                                                             

                                                                            aboveliquidice

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                                                                            1. Pharmacist
                                                                              It turned out that the teens were coerced by an older adult to do it. If anyone should be guilty of straight murder, its that dude. 2nd degree sounds good. I'd give the RPh manslaughter. He didn't have to kill the kid.

                                                                              I am having trouble locating the story - but I believe the two kids (one 14 and the other a little older) are charged with attempted robbery...

                                                                              If there was justice - they would go down for murder as well. I would be very surprised if he goes down for murder though. Certainly not first degree anyway.

                                                                              My bet is for manslaughter - and for those of you crying about empathy and human rights, you are very confused.

                                                                              One punk already had a laundry list of broken laws. At the age of 14, they were ready to engage in armed robbery (murder is an unexpected situation possibility). If they didn't kill someone here - it was coming. This guy protected the community. Do not condemn the man for acting - condemn him for going to far.
                                                                               

                                                                              WVUPharm2007

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                                                                              1. Pharmacist
                                                                                One punk already had a laundry list of broken laws. At the age of 14, they were ready to engage in armed robbery (murder is an unexpected situation possibility). If they didn't kill someone here - it was coming. This guy protected the community. Do not condemn the man for acting - condemn him for going to far.

                                                                                At 14 you are easily influenced by your surroundings. I would like to hear more about his relationship with the "ringleader" adult. I'd like to say that reform is possible, but our justice system is beyond ****ed up. They send him to juvey and he'll be worse off...they send him to the adult pen and he'll be an elite professional criminal by the time he's released...

                                                                                It's just sad.

                                                                                And to say he "protected the community" is utter hyperbole. The kid was unarmed and dying...shooting him 5 times isn't warranted.
                                                                                 
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