Jefferson bat murder

[beanbean]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

To the OP: Instead of coming down on those who questioned your "sincerity" in posting this thread; please go back and read your initial post. My first reaction to reading your post was how inappropriate is was for you to link your disgust at this act of violence to your own rejection from Jefferson. What does the fact that you didn't get into Jefferson have to do with this murder? Mentioning this fact doesn't make you "cynical" it makes you come across selfish and shallow. I'm sorry if you didn't intend to portray yourself this way, but this was my first reaction.

With regards to those trying to diagnosis the student who commited the crime: speculations about his type of mental illness are just that - speculations. To try to say he did or did not have schizoprenia is impossible and does a disservice to those who have the disease. To blame the student for not getting medical help for himself is also inappropriate. He may have been in treatment or have been unaware of his need for treatment. Some pathological processes in mental illness are extremely diffficult to treat due to the fact that the disease itself robs the patient of his or her ability to understand reality, including the reality of their disease and the necessity of treatment. Blaming patients with such serious mental illness for not getting treatment is like blaming an advanced Alzheimer's patient for forgetting to turn off the stove. The fault lies with the disease process, not with the patient's intent.

I have no idea if the student who killed this young woman was mentally ill. That is up to his doctors and a judge or jury to determine. Until then, I will not pass judgement on him.

 

[sstache1]

To the OP: Instead of coming down on those who questioned your "sincerity" in posting this thread; please go back and read your initial post. My first reaction to reading your post was how inappropriate is was for you to link your disgust at this act of violence to your own rejection from Jefferson. What does the fact that you didn't get into Jefferson have to do with this murder? Mentioning this fact doesn't make you "cynical" it makes you come across selfish and shallow. I'm sorry if you didn't intend to portray yourself this way, but this was my first reaction.

With regards to those trying to diagnosis the student who commited the crime: speculations about his type of mental illness are just that - speculations. To try to say he did or did not have schizoprenia is impossible and does a disservice to those who have the disease. To blame the student for not getting medical help for himself is also inappropriate. He may have been in treatment or have been unaware of his need for treatment. Some pathological processes in mental illness are extremely diffficult to treat due to the fact that the disease itself robs the patient of his or her ability to understand reality, including the reality of their disease and the necessity of treatment. Blaming patients with such serious mental illness for not getting treatment is like blaming an advanced Alzheimer's patient for forgetting to turn off the stove. The fault lies with the disease process, not with the patient's intent.

I have no idea if the student who killed this young woman was mentally ill. That is up to his doctors and a judge or jury to determine. Until then, I will not pass judgement on him.

Beanbean, I definately see your point. And your right, I certainly didn't mean to come across the way I may have. The post was simply a combination of reactions and emotions that occurred when I found out about this tragedy. Perhaps I just didn't articulate myself well enough to be properly understood, or perhaps I should have just never posted this subject to be debated among this target audience. In the end I blame myself for sharing my thought and feels with everyone on this board. In the future I certainly will know that as a jaded reapplicant, I don't have much of a place to complain among the elite of this forum. And I don't mean that in a negative way, I'm just saying I'm not going to post my thoghts anymore, no matter what the topic.

Thanks for not being too judgement like some others.

 

[Art Vandalay]

we've got a regular peanut gallery over here. as someone else pointed out - it's easy to see what should have been done, now that it's happened and we're looking back on it. wouldn't it be nice if we all stopped being so judgmental? blaming the bystanders for not doing anything, blaming the medical schools for letting someone in, blaming each other?

aren't we all so know-it-all? us little premeds? obviously if we had been there, it would've happened differently.

Sorry if someone's comments offended you. I don't think anyone was really blaming the bystanders or the school... just questioning them. If you read the article, it makes it sound like the area was packed with people. I know the area (as you do, being from philly), and it's not a dark alley... it's a fairly busy place. It's only logical to wonder why nobody did anything... which is what some people are saying here. Of course we don't know all the facts... and hindsight is 20/20. Maybe all the witnesses were 90 year old ladies... Maybe the dude had his car parked right next to the scene of the crime, and nobody was paying attention. It's sad that the girl had to die like this...luckily her killer will spend the rest of his life in jail (or probably a mental assylum) thanks to some alert witnesses. btw i'm not a little premed... ok FINE maybe I am.

 

[45408]

Man, this guy needs a taste of his own medicine.

 

[jetskigirl]

Just a few comments:

The article said the guy was arrested for assault. Unless there has been clarification, it said whether he was convicted was unknown. But none of us believe in innocent until proven guilty. You can't do anything based on an arrest alone. However, I would love to have heard how he explained that in his PS.

As far as backgroud checks, yes they are nice. They may or may not have done any good. But please remember the past. The USPS does extensive background checks, yet there is a reason we call it going postal. They are not going to catch everything and they are not going to be able to predict how someone might change.

As far as his mental state, I would like people to think about one more thing. We all exhibit some form of every mental problem. It's called human nature. It's only a mental disease when it is in an extreme. We all get sad sometimes. Doesn't mean we are depressed. We all have random thoughts pop into out heads. Doesn't mean we are schizophrenic. That's why diagnoses in the DSM-IV have requirements that we don't all meet. I think depression is something like for 6 months; I don't actually remember so don't base my entire opinion on one messed up fact. But were you depressed at 3 months? Sure, but you could not be diagnosed with clinical depression (though possibly sub-clinical). So could there have been signs? Normally there are. But then again, this could be said for all of us.

This is a tragedy. My prayers go out to the Sullivans. I wish we could do more to help them than just sit around and debate this.

Also, from someone who has seen someone killed before their eyes, 15 seconds is nothing. Sure, it may seem like a long time when you're sitting doing nothing. But when you really get in the situation, you are shocked. I'm just glad people were able to get it together and get his license plate number. I wasn't even able to ID the car. My prayers also go out to the people who saw this happen. I hope they do not always feel like there was something more they should have been able to do. It is a horrible feeling.

 

[IntlMed]

I don't understand why some people on this post are actually trying to support the *****'s actions. He was ill / may be he didn't know / May be he took drugs etc etc.. Just stop the Bull. This F*&^%$% idiot killed someone. Stop being lawyers and get down to reality. I dont care if someone is schizophrenic or not.. the bottom line is HE killed somone. Come out of the shell... Yes I have seen people getting hurt in front of my eyes and 15 secs is nothing....so stop blaming the by-standers and stop giving excuses for this ass***'s actions. There is no excuse for these killings..
My heart goes out for the victim and her family. What a precious life - taken away by a *****. I hope he burns in hell for this. This bast*** has shattered her dreams and the dreams of her family.

 

[jdovez]

I don't understand why some people on this post are actually trying to support the *****'s actions. He was ill / may be he didn't know / May be he took drugs etc etc.. Just stop the Bull. This F*&^%$% idiot killed someone. Stop being d*&^ lawyers and get down to reality. I dont care if someone is schizophrenic or not.. the bottom line is HE F&&&&*& killed somone. Come out of the shell... Yes I have seen people getting hurt in front of my eyes and 15 secs is nothing....so stop blaming the by-standers and stop giving excuses for this ass***'s actions. There is no excuse for these killings..
My heart goes out for the victim and her family. What a precious life - taken away by a *****. I hope he burns in hell for this. This bast*** has shattered her dreams and the dreams of her family.

As I previously stated, this view of potential mental illness (if that is what this man has, I was pretty sure it had been reported, but I need to verify) is quite appalling. It is like blaming a diabetic for not being able to eat as much sugar as another person. Just like the diabetic has a metabolic disorder, one with mental illness has a disorder of the psyche potentially triggered by faulty regulation of a myriad of potential factors in the brain. As potential physicians we all need to be compassionate toward ANYONE that has a disease or illness. Mental illness does in fact fall into that category.

 

[i61164]

Sorry if someone's comments offended you. I don't think anyone was really blaming the bystanders or the school... just questioning them. If you read the article, it makes it sound like the area was packed with people. I know the area (as you do, being from philly), and it's not a dark alley... it's a fairly busy place. It's only logical to wonder why nobody did anything... which is what some people are saying here. Of course we don't know all the facts... and hindsight is 20/20. Maybe all the witnesses were 90 year old ladies... Maybe the dude had his car parked right next to the scene of the crime, and nobody was paying attention. It's sad that the girl had to die like this...luckily her killer will spend the rest of his life in jail (or probably a mental assylum) thanks to some alert witnesses. btw i'm not a little premed... ok FINE maybe I am.

Exactly. People are jumping all over myself and others for questioning the bystanders, but we are just reacting to the following quote from the article "Although the sidewalks were crowded, no one tried to stop the attack." What image does this create in your mind?

Mushy and her too cool sidekicks can say "You weren't there. End of discussion." all they want, but I am not going to feel bad for reacting to what I read on ABC Action New Philadelphia. If people think that it paints the wrong picture then they can write a letter to ABC.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Exactly. People are jumping all over myself and others for questioning the bystanders, but we are just reacting to the following quote from the article "Although the sidewalks were crowded, no one tried to stop the attack." What image does this create in your mind?

Mushy and her too cool sidekicks can say "You weren't there. End of discussion." all they want, but I am not going to feel bad for reacting to what I read on ABC Action New Philadelphia. If people think that it paints the wrong picture then they can write a letter to ABC.

I have sidesicks? SWEET! I understand your viewpoint I just happen to see a different view of things. When you are in that type of situation and have experienced maybe you just see the different sides. None of us were there which is why I have stopped commenting. I don't see a point to drag it on honestly. You are entitled to embrace your reaction, I implore you to actually because just as much as it enrages me that noone jumped in, I wish someone had as well. Just wasn't the right place and right time. We need more upstanding people as those who stated they would have jumped in. Sorry for playing devils advocate. I'm too much of a realist in some aspects. 🙂

I at least had the decency not to bash anyone, I just get frustrated and maybe my posts came across too harsh. The whole situation sucks.

 

[Pembleton]

BUMP

So what happened to the assailant? Has this gone to trial?

 

[BobA]

I agree with the previous post. Also, I'm shocked by your - and other posters - lack of sensitivity. This guy was mentally ill! You can't blame him for that.

I think medical schools should screen out ignorant, insensitive, self-absorbed applicants.

To read about a good mentally ill doctor try "The Eden Express." Written by Mark Vonnegurt, son of Kurt. He's bipolar and a pediatrician at Mass General.

 

[Blake]

yes, lovely of you to state that you are "appalled" and that we should pray for the victim. Personally, I'm disgusted that you're using this tragedy as an excuse to b**** and moan about the fact that you haven't been accepted to med school. Please get over yourself.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[riceman04]

I don't know if any of you have heard, but a 3rd year was killed last week at Jefferson by one of her former classmates. Appearently the attacker had bipolar disorder and was asked to leave Jeff, due to "extreme changes in behavior" or something like that. Basically this guy beat the victim to death with a baseball bat on a crowded street corner in the middle of Philly in broad daylight.

Heres a link that tells all the details.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/news/110904_nw_batattack-ali.html

First I must say I am appalled that this happened. My heart goes out to the victim's family and friends. It is truly a shame that an individual with such potential was taken away.

But here's the part where I have to be cynical. How does someone like the attacker get into medical school. I'm sure at times he showed great potential to be a doctor, which was probably why he was admitted.

I must admit, I am quick to point the finger because right now I am a re-applicant, and having to re-apply has seriously jaded my view of the application process. To make matters worse, last cycle, I was placed on the high priority wait list at Jeff and didn't get a spot. Now I could bitch and complain that life isn't fair, because I am a good applicant and I know I will do well in med school. But that's not the point I am trying to raise here. I am quite certain there are many other individual out there that get into medical school, and shouldn't be there, for a number of reasons. With possibilities ranging from it's because they are only doing it because their family pressured them, or they have a personality disorder that could make them dangerous to others, or because they are just in it for the money, plently of people get in and shouldn't be there. Or maybe I'm just a cry baby whose mad at the world... 😡 😡 😡 😡

If you read through this post and don't give a crap, I'm sorry you read through my little rant. But if you have any thoughts, please share, I'd love to hear what other have to say, whether they agree or disagree with me.

And if you believe in that sort of thing, say a prayer for the victim and her family.

Just goes to show you that medical schools need to consider placing prospective students through psychoanalysis tests in order to ensure that they do not admitt someone who is (potentially) unstable. Being that bipolar disorder is very serious and very detecable, someone should have picked up on characteristics (unless the person was on meds at the time). I think it is necessary for all schools to implement this type of testing.

And in terms of "where would we draw the line?": determining what testing limitations should be is not that difficult. Lines are drawn and abided by everyday in all facets of life.


About your Bs'ing : get over it! Dont be such a prick about the process. You may not be deemed mentally ill, but there is something about you that is lacking (in their eyes) as well.

 

[jodyleeann]

Just goes to show you that medical schools need to consider placing prospective students through psychoanalysis tests in order to ensure that they do not admitt someone who is (potentially) unstable. Being that bipolar disorder is very serious and very detecable, someone should have picked up on characteristics (unless the person was on meds at the time). I think it is necessary for all schools to implement this type of testing.

And in terms of "where would we draw the line?": determining what testing limitations should be is not that difficult. Lines are drawn and abided by everyday in all facets of life.


About your Bs'ing : get over it! Dont be such a prick about the process. You may not be deemed mentally ill, but there is something about you that is lacking (in their eyes) as well.

I'm seriously confused on what it is that makes someone with a mental illness unfit for medical school. If the person has been (or is being) treated and is stabilized, then what is your beef? There are lots of people out there that are coping with mental illnesses from depression to bipolar and no one would ever be able to tell. I think that for ya'll to sit here and say that because this guy is currently diagnosed with bipolar that he wasn't fit to enter medical school. These things can develop almost instantaneously under stress and if that was the case, then he could have developed it at any point in his life. You never know when these things are going to creep up. But to exclude those people that have worked very hard to get their lives together and have a good and happy life even with a mental illness is rediculous. And no joke, I'm really, really shocked at how many closed-minded people there are that will bash on an illness that they know next to nothing about. YOU DON'T KNOW. Until you or someone you love has been affected by one of these illnesses, you don't know what it means to go through the diagnosis and actually recover. So shame on all of ya'll.

 

[mshheaddoc]

update that I could find through lexis-nexus

March 17, 2005, Thursday, BC cycle

SECTION: State and Regional

LENGTH: 242 words

HEADLINE: Suspect in bat attack makes court appearance

BYLINE: By DAVID B. CARUSO, Associated Press Writer

DATELINE: PHILADELPHIA

BODY:
A mentally ill man accused of fatally bludgeoning a medical school classmate on a bustling South Street sidewalk appeared briefly in a Philadelphia courtroom Wednesday to waive his right to a hearing in which he could have challenged his arrest.

Nader Ali, 26, looked slightly disheveled and spoke in a mumble as he answered a short series of questions from a prosecutor.

The former student at Jefferson Medical College is charged with attacking classmate Lea Sullivan with a baseball bat in front of an upscale supermarket on a Sunday afternoon last November.

Ali was a casual acquaintance of Sullivan, 25. The two hadn't had any reported problems and hadn't dated, and investigators have been at a loss to explain why he allegedly singled her out and attacked her.

Ali has been diagnosed as psychotic, bipolar and schizophrenic, and has been taking psychiatric medications, his attorneys said. Before the attack, he had been repeatedly hospitalized for mental illness and was on leave from school for behavioral problems.

A judge ruled in January that he was competent to stand trial.

Ali was only in court for a few minutes Wednesday. His parents, of Franklin Lakes, N.J., attended the hearing, but were separated from their son by a wall of protective glass.

Wednesday's court action was largely a formality that will allow the case to continue to an arraignment, and eventually a trial.

Ali is due back in court in April.

LOAD-DATE: March 18, 2005

I can't find his April court date for the arraignment. But he is still awaiting trial. I'm sure when he does have a trial it will get more news. I'm sure he won't have it for a few more months.

 

[DrBowtie]

Did it say he was on his medicine the day of the attack?

 

[mshheaddoc]

There has been no trial. When the trial takes place, all of that information will be released. They won't release (unless leaked) prior I'm sure.

 

[jon stewart]

a lot of you mention that she wasnt helped or something along those lines, i didnt read the actual link, just the post... but i might have some insight onto why people didnt help

In my psychology class i learnt that in social psychology, there is a thing called a diffusion of reponsibility, and this means that if there a crowd, everyone is thinking that someone else will step in, and thus the responsibility is diffused among the crowed, and eventually no one ends up helping. My prof said it was just like if you were on the a busy highway and your car broke down, it would be a while before good samartian would help you, beacause people driving by keep thinking that someone else willl help you. On the other hand if you were on a country road, and someone came along you would get help immediately. He ended that class by saying that if you ever need help in a situation, that you go up to somone, and point to them and say "you need to help me" or "i need your help" or something along those lines. He said thats a way to acutally get help.
He was a great prof, he got hes phd in social psychology from harvard. he lectures were so enteraining that i acutally remember this.....

I dont know if that idea applies to this situation, since its been mentioned that the attach was fairly quick.

However, its a terrible thing to have happened for a person who had worked so hard....

i hope this piece of advice helps..

 

[mshheaddoc]

Just goes to show you that medical schools need to consider placing prospective students through psychoanalysis tests in order to ensure that they do not admitt someone who is (potentially) unstable. Being that bipolar disorder is very serious and very detecable, someone should have picked up on characteristics (unless the person was on meds at the time). I think it is necessary for all schools to implement this type of testing.

I'm disagreeing with your outlook only b/c mental illness is like any other disease. There are a few bad apples but they shouldn't be the example for the rest of the citizens that struggle everyday. How would you feel if you were discriminated against?

My experience is that mental illness in some form or another is high in med school. Depression is the most popular illness for obvious reasons of the pressure.


Just like other diseases, sometimes others need to see the signs. Like alcoholism and drug abuse. Just an observation. I think this man was recognized to have a problem which is why he was "REMOVED" from this medical school. I think you guys are missing the point in that regard. Yes he did kill a medical student that he knew while he was there. But even if you look at the situation in a different setting, mental patients can't be isolated from society. If it wasn't her, if he hadn't been in med school, it might have been someone else.

 

[mshheaddoc]

a lot of you mention that she wasnt helped or something along those lines, i didnt read the actual link, just the post... but i might have some insight onto why people didnt help

In my psychology class i learnt that in social psychology, there is a thing called a diffusion of reponsibility, and this means that if there a crowd, everyone is thinking that someone else will step in, and thus the responsibility is diffused among the crowed, and eventually no one ends up helping. My prof said it was just like if you were on the a busy highway and your car broke down, it would be a while before good samartian would help you, beacause people driving by keep thinking that someone else willl help you. On the other hand if you were on a country road, and someone came along you would get help immediately. He ended that class by saying that if you ever need help in a situation, that you go up to somone, and point to them and say "you need to help me" or "i need your help" or something along those lines. He said thats a way to acutally get help.
He was a great prof, he got hes phd in social psychology from harvard. he lectures were so enteraining that i acutally remember this.....

I dont know if that idea applies to this situation, since its been mentioned that the attach was fairly quick.

However, its a terrible thing to have happened for a person who had worked so hard....

i hope this piece of advice helps..

yes someone had mentioned this in an earlier post. I'm sure this was part of the reason. That 10 seconds people had by the time they reacted it was almost over.

Such a shame about senseless murders.

 

[redclover]

i dont see where it says he had "bipolar" in the article.
all i see is an act of violence on an apparently attractive woman by a huge man.
i dont know if i buy the whole "mental disorder" plea anymore because it seems like EVERYONE uses it in every homicide situation. How about good old fashioned heartbreak as a motive?
I'm not saying that was the case here, but its a possibility. So many women are killed by thier boyfriends/husbands/etc.

 

[riceman04]

I'm disagreeing with your outlook only b/c mental illness is like any other disease. There are a few bad apples but they shouldn't be the example for the rest of the citizens that struggle everyday. How would you feel if you were discriminated against?

My experience is that mental illness in some form or another is high in med school. Depression is the most popular illness for obvious reasons of the pressure.


Just like other diseases, sometimes others need to see the signs. Like alcoholism and drug abuse. Just an observation. I think this man was recognized to have a problem which is why he was "REMOVED" from this medical school. I think you guys are missing the point in that regard. Yes he did kill a medical student that he knew while he was there. But even if you look at the situation in a different setting, mental patients can't be isolated from society. If it wasn't her, if he hadn't been in med school, it might have been someone else.

Oh I am discriminated against on a weekly basis. But I live through it. And I do not fit society's sterotype of the detrimental afr. amer. male that likes to complain and make excuses for why things may not always go my way (I am not saying that you said this about me. I am just explaining myself). I make adjustments and keep moving like everyone else. But I will always acknowledge that I have been and always will be discriminated against.

Now about what I said earlier: I did some thinking about what I posted on this website (even before I read what wass said about my post) and realized that argument is not completely justified. No, I do not think it is right to discriminate against people who have mental illnesses. But I also think that people who have mental illnesses (at least the ones who are aware that they have an illness) should take steps to mitigate the personal and societal impact of their illness. It is their responsibilty to stay on the prescribed medicine that will allow them to function "normally" and to pursue their goals.

Ok.........sooooooo......I am not sure where I am going with this anymore.........but let me ask this question (and this is for everyone to answer):

How do you think society would view this incident had he become a physician and went balistic on a patient while treating that patient?

 

[DrBowtie]

i dont see where it says he had "bipolar" in the article.
all i see is an act of violence on an apparently attractive woman by a huge man.
i dont know if i buy the whole "mental disorder" plea anymore because it seems like EVERYONE uses it in every homicide situation. How about good old fashioned heartbreak as a motive?
I'm not saying that was the case here, but its a possibility. So many women are killed by thier boyfriends/husbands/etc.

Look in the court report above provided by MSHEADDOC. It states it there.

 

[jon stewart]

Oh I am discriminated against on a weekly basis. But I live through it. And I do not fit society's sterotype of the detrimental afr. amer. male that likes to complain and make excuses for why things may not always go my way (I am not saying that you said this about me. I am just explaining myself). I make adjustments and keep moving like everyone else. But I will always acknowledge that I have been and always will be discriminated against.

Now about what I said earlier: I did some thinking about what I posted on this website (even before I read what wass said about my post) and realized that argument is not completely justified. No, I do not think it is right to discriminate against people who have mental illnesses. But I also think that people who have mental illnesses (at least the ones who are aware that they have an illness) should take steps to mitigate the personal and societal impact of their illness. It is their responsibilty to stay on the prescribed medicine that will allow them to function "normally" and to pursue their goals.

Ok.........sooooooo......I am not sure where I am going with this anymore.........but let me ask this question (and this is for everyone to answer):

How do you think society would view this incident had he become a physician and went balistic on a patient while treating that patient?

law suit.........

 

[redclover]

thanks, you're right. guess he is genuinely psycho. 🙁

 

[riceman04]

Originally Posted by riceman04
Oh I am discriminated against on a weekly basis. But I live through it. And I do not fit society's sterotype of the detrimental afr. amer. male that likes to complain and make excuses for why things may not always go my way (I am not saying that you said this about me. I am just explaining myself). I make adjustments and keep moving like everyone else. But I will always acknowledge that I have been and always will be discriminated against.

Now about what I said earlier: I did some thinking about what I posted on this website (even before I read what wass said about my post) and realized that argument is not completely justified. No, I do not think it is right to discriminate against people who have mental illnesses. But I also think that people who have mental illnesses (at least the ones who are aware that they have an illness) should take steps to mitigate the personal and societal impact of their illness. It is their responsibilty to stay on the prescribed medicine that will allow them to function "normally" and to pursue their goals.

Ok.........sooooooo......I am not sure where I am going with this anymore.........but let me ask this question (and this is for everyone to answer):

How do you think society would view this incident had he become a physician and went balistic on a patient while treating that patient?


answer given by "jon stewart"
law suit.........

Thanks jon

Ok so do yall think there would be some sort of public backlash?

 

[redclover]

maybe adcoms will start doing psych profiles. but i heard many med students kill themselves and no one seems to care, so why start now!

 

[riceman04]

I'm seriously confused on what it is that makes someone with a mental illness unfit for medical school. If the person has been (or is being) treated and is stabilized, then what is your beef? There are lots of people out there that are coping with mental illnesses from depression to bipolar and no one would ever be able to tell. I think that for ya'll to sit here and say that because this guy is currently diagnosed with bipolar that he wasn't fit to enter medical school. These things can develop almost instantaneously under stress and if that was the case, then he could have developed it at any point in his life. You never know when these things are going to creep up. But to exclude those people that have worked very hard to get their lives together and have a good and happy life even with a mental illness is rediculous. And no joke, I'm really, really shocked at how many closed-minded people there are that will bash on an illness that they know next to nothing about. YOU DON'T KNOW. Until you or someone you love has been affected by one of these illnesses, you don't know what it means to go through the diagnosis and actually recover. So shame on all of ya'll.

I think in many ways we are all "closed-minded" about something then. I hope through this discussion I will learn something (from you especially) so that I will not be so closed-minded.
But I do know one thing: That is that if I knew my doctor was bipolar, I probably would not want him to be my doctor only b/c I would not when and where his/her symptoms would/could be ellicited.

 

[mshheaddoc]

as for public backlash, what do you mean? You mean as for pysch evals for med students? This kid had a recognized problem. He was released from med school. This will have no backlash for med schools because honestly, it has nothing to do with them. This has to do with a person with a serious mental disorder not a medical school.

 

[tigress]

I started reading this and thought, wait wasn't this last year? And then I checked the date 😛

Anyway, as far as discrimination, the problem is that the vast majority of people with bipolar disorder are not and will never be violent. The vast majority of schizophrenics will never be violent, either. They are both horrible diseases and have the potential to completely disable somebody. But there are certainly people with bipolar disorder who function normally in society with the help of medication, so the question is should they be kept out of medical school because of their disease? If they are capable of getting through, I don't see any possible reason to exclude them.

Also, keep in mind that most murders are committed by people with no psychiatric diagnosis at all. Maybe it's just done in cold blood, completely premeditated, and no psychological test before the fact is going to tell you that this person will murder somebody. Maybe something happens that makes somebody snap and murder another person. How in the world are you supposed to keep any potential murderer out of med school? It would be completely impossible.

And only one other person has pointed out that Jefferson had placed this person on a leave of absence (or asked him to leave the school, it's not clear). So obviously the school was dealing with it before the murder took place. How can you blame the school or the admissions process.

And finally, this is another example of people thinking doctors are somehow special. How are medical students or doctors different than any other group of people, other than that they have to be relatively intelligent and complete certain requirements? The psychological profile of doctors is bound to be as broad as much of society. Any other person commits a murder, and we think "oh, how horrible, how could he do that?" but you don't see people asking how he could have been hired, or gotten through college, etc. Just because the guy was in med school, how does that reflect on the admissions process? There are medical students who will steal, students who will rape, students who will do many horrible things; but that's just because that's true of people in general.

 

[mshheaddoc]

maybe adcoms will start doing psych profiles. but i heard many med students kill themselves and no one seems to care, so why start now!

many? Do you have some evidence of this? Yes we all here about the stories but people commit suicide every day. What would psych profiles do?

Just playing devils advocate 🙂 No meant to offend, but I think people should look up the facts that they that state sometimes. You'd be surprise at what you find 😉

 

[mshheaddoc]

I started reading this and thought, wait wasn't this last year? And then I checked the date 😛

Anyway, as far as discrimination, the problem is that the vast majority of people with bipolar disorder are not and will never be violent. The vast majority of schizophrenics will never be violent, either. They are both horrible diseases and have the potential to completely disable somebody. But there are certainly people with bipolar disorder who function normally in society with the help of medication, so the question is should they be kept out of medical school because of their disease? If they are capable of getting through, I don't see any possible reason to exclude them.

Also, keep in mind that most murders are committed by people with no psychiatric diagnosis at all. Maybe it's just done in cold blood, completely premeditated, and no psychological test before the fact is going to tell you that this person will murder somebody. Maybe something happens that makes somebody snap and murder another person. How in the world are you supposed to keep any potential murderer out of med school? It would be completely impossible.

And only one other person has pointed out that Jefferson had placed this person on a leave of absence (or asked him to leave the school, it's not clear). So obviously the school was dealing with it before the murder took place. How can you blame the school or the admissions process.

And finally, this is another example of people thinking doctors are somehow special. How are medical students or doctors different than any other group of people, other than that they have to be relatively intelligent and complete certain requirements? The psychological profile of doctors is bound to be as broad as much of society. Any other person commits a murder, and we think "oh, how horrible, how could he do that?" but you don't see people asking how he could have been hired, or gotten through college, etc. Just because the guy was in med school, how does that reflect on the admissions process? There are medical students who will steal, students who will rape, students who will do many horrible things; but that's just because that's true of people in general.

Well put tigress. Stated my thoughts exactly.

 

[BobA]

I am happy that people have turned this post into something positive and educational.

I'd like to point out that the incidence of violence is the same in the mentally ill population as it is in a mentally "normal" population.

 

[riceman04]

as for public backlash, what do you mean? You mean as for pysch evals for med students? This kid had a recognized problem. He was released from med school. This will have no backlash for med schools because honestly, it has nothing to do with them. This has to do with a person with a serious mental disorder not a medical school.

Do you think the public would question the method by which some docs were admitted to med school and trained if they had a mental illness and later physically assaulted one of their patients?

Tigger (as usual) made a good point.

 

[tigress]

I agree with the previous post. Also, I'm shocked by your - and other posters - lack of sensitivity. This guy was mentally ill! You can't blame him for that.

I didn't really see this post before. I think you're wrong here. This guy is obviously guilty of murder. Sure, he's mentally ill, but that doesn't excuse murder. We can argue for years over how much control he had over his actions, but he still swung the bat. In general, a conviction of "guilty but mentally ill" seems to me to be a good alternative to either just plain guilty or "innocent by reason of insanity." Because you have to recognize the special circumstances, but how can you suggest that the person is innocent? Also, somebody who has been violent is at a much greater risk for being violent again. I really don't know what would be appropriate in terms of inprisonment/treatment, but I do think that some form of both is necessary in cases like this.

And before anybody jumps on me, I have plenty of experience with mental illness. I am in no way ignorant regarding the issues involved.

 

[wends]

🙁 that is just so sad! but i dont know if its the application process that is to blame. things happen in life and people can do a lot of crazy things no matter what profession they are in. and lets admit, during interviews, people are on their best behaviors and dont show violent tendencies.

but if he did have a history of past acts then it should have been picked up 😕 im just really sad for the girl and her family and friends. and for the students at jefferson who lost their classmate.

 

[jon stewart]

i am wondering if the crazy dude knew that she would be around the store at the time? I dont think that he walked around philly with the mask looking for her? he had hes car near by tooo. I think someone mentioned that he had contact with the girl earlier that day.

 

[AlexisTaylor]

My prayers are with the victim and her family. This is such a sad tragedy and it makes me wonder sometimes. This guy definitely deserves to rot in h&%* and I don't care if he does have a mental illness. There are plenty of other people that suffer from a mental illness that don't go out and BRUTALLY murder someone.

This guy was charged with assault!! Did everyone see this? It says that it wasnt clear if he was convicted or not. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to indicate on your application if you have ever been charged or convicted of a crime. Did schools just overlook this? In my opinion anyone who assaults another person does not deserve to be a doctor.

 

[tigress]

My prayers are with the victim and her family. This is such a sad tragedy and it makes me wonder sometimes. This guy definitely deserves to rot in h&%* and I don't care if he does have a mental illness. There are plenty of other people that suffer from a mental illness that don't go out and BRUTALLY murder someone.

This guy was charged with assault!! Did everyone see this? It says that it wasnt clear if he was convicted or not. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to indicate on your application if you have ever been charged or convicted of a crime. Did schools just overlook this? In my opinion anyone who assaults another person does not deserve to be a doctor.

First of all, as I said before, the mental illness does not excuse the murder, of course. But you don't seem to understand what people will mental illness may be faced with. A person with schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder may have voices in his head telling him to murder, may believe that he is committing this murder to protect himself, etc. He may even have thought he had to do it to save the world; there's no way of knowing.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "deserve to be a doctor." Since when is it a privilege that is earned? It's a career (and a calling) that we train for, not a prize we get. As I said before, people seem to think that doctors are somehow special and morally superior. This is just not the case. There are many professions that involve taking care of people in various ways, all of which, you would hope, attract compassionate, qualified, and professional people. I doubt you would say that somebody "deserved" to be a social worker, a nurse, etc.

And this isn't to say I don't agree with you; maybe people with a history of assault should not be admitted into medical school, I'm not sure. I just object to the choice of words.

 

[AlexisTaylor]

I'm sorry....I agree with you that I didnt use the right words. What I meant by "doesnt deserve to be a doctor" was that someone who hurts people should not become a doctor because that defeats the purpose of the whole profession of helping people. I personally have no idea what its like to have a mental illness but my mother does and has suffered from it for many years. I just don't think people should use a mental illness as an excuse to murder someone especially as brutally as this man did.

I'm sorry I don't usually get so emotional on these threads but I felt like I had to comment on this one. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

 

[jodyleeann]

I think in many ways we are all "closed-minded" about something then. I hope through this discussion I will learn something (from you especially) so that I will not be so closed-minded.
But I do know one thing: That is that if I knew my doctor was bipolar, I probably would not want him to be my doctor only b/c I would not when and where his/her symptoms would/could be ellicited.

I definitely agree about everyone being closed-minded about something. We all have our little things that perhaps make us push a little harder than we had intended. I think you make a good point about the bipolar doctor and I think a lot of people share your sentiments, but if you've read some of the posts from mshheaddoc and tigress maybe some of the points we're trying to make are fitting together.

Mental illness, the real deal, not someone claiming crazy just to get off when on trial, is something that untreated, is nearly uncontrollable. This probably isn't the best analogy, but it's the first that comes to mind: Think of asthma. They never know when they're going to have an attack. That attack at any time (if they are untreated, and especially in children) has the ability to kill them and strikes with what seems no notice. You have to look for the signs. The parents and siblings and friends, and especially the patient themselves, have to learn what the signs ARE in order to take preventative measures. What sort of things induce your attacks? Exercise, climate, allergies, pets? There are tons of things that can instigate an asthma attack on an uninformed patient, but the more they know about it, the greater the opportunity to find ways to preemptively avoid them. (This isn't true in all cases of course, but in a great many)

It's the same way for mental diseases. Upon diagnosis, the best way to start out is to stabalize the condition. Usually with medication. A lot of mental illnesses, just like some physical conditions, can be triggered by stress or emotional reaction and a lot of times, the person's mood will be so unstable that it is nearly impossible to treat with counseling at outset. It is my personal belief (this is just my opinion!!!) that every person that is diagnosed with a mental illness, regardless of severity should undergo counseling of some sort to learn the triggers of their illness. Each person reacts to different things differently, and therefore the triggers for these mental conditions can sometimes be hard to find, and just like with any other disease, you're going to have times where you "just didn't see/feel it coming."

With the proper medication and guidance by psychiatrists and/or counselors some people with very severe mental conditions, such as schizophrenia and bipolar, are able to lead normal lives. I don't know enough about schizophrenia to talk about it with any authority, but for bipolar there are different degrees as well. There are currently two types of bipolar (at least that I am currently aware of): Bipolar I and Bipolar II. Bipolar I is the severe case that most people have probably called or heard called manic depression. I'm assuming that this is the type that the guy at Jefferson had, but it is possible that it could be a very strong manifestation of Bipolar II. Bipolar II is often called "rapid-cycling" bipolar. The cycling refers to the abrupt change from the manic state to the depressed state or vice versa. It's the cycling portion that tends to bring out any sort of hallucinations or delusions. There is very good medication out there now that is particularly designed to stabilize mood in bipolar patients. It stops the cycling process (for the most part) and with counseling you can learn to recognize the symptoms of a descent into the depressive state or the ascent into mania. The ability to recognize these symptoms is KEY to the success and well-being of a patient with most any mental illness.

I personally would have no problem being treated by someone with bipolar disorder. If they have it under control enough to make it through their daily lives and to have made it through the stressors of medical school, then they are obviously mentally capable to treat and care for patients. Like any other disease, mental illnesses are treatable, and while they may not be termed "curable," you can still lead a very normal life with a pretty severe disorder like bipolar.

Sorry to go off like this, I just wanted ya'll to get an idea of what bipolar really is and what it can do. If anyone has any other questions, feel free to ask. If I don't know the answer, I wont light you up with a bunch of BS, I'll just tell you I don't know, and probly do some research on it.

Thanks for listening guys....have a great day!

 

[mshheaddoc]

Do you think the public would question the method by which some docs were admitted to med school and trained if they had a mental illness and later physically assaulted one of their patients?

Tigger (as usual) made a good point.

they could do that in many different positions. I truly don't see the difference of the doctor from any other ordinary person. The same could be said about a lawyer, dentist, pyschologist. Doesn't mean that their graduate schools shouldn't have trained them. There are many other circumstances which drives people to hurt others. They don't just have to have a mental illness.

 

[tigress]

I just want to add to what jodyleeann said. Severe forms of bipolar disorder can sometimes be difficult to distinguish from schizophrenia. My mother's lifetime good friend committed suicide recently after battling severe bipolar disorder for most of her life. She had paranoid delusions and heard voices just like a schizophrenic, but her disease was closer to bipolar. The truth is that these diagnoses are human inventions; mental illess (or ANY illness, for that matter) doesn't necessarily follow our clear-cut diagnostic patterns. With mental illness this is particularly true. A diagnosis is useful in terms of formulating a treatment plan, but a diagnosis can never adequately describe an individual's disease.

All of this isn't really on-topic, but I wanted to say it.

 

[jodyleeann]

I just want to add to what jodyleeann said. Severe forms of bipolar disorder can sometimes be difficult to distinguish from schizophrenia. My mother's lifetime good friend committed suicide recently after battling severe bipolar disorder for most of her life. She had paranoid delusions and heard voices just like a schizophrenic, but her disease was closer to bipolar. The truth is that these diagnoses are human inventions; mental illess (or ANY illness, for that matter) doesn't necessarily follow our clear-cut diagnostic patterns. With mental illness this is particularly true. A diagnosis is useful in terms of formulating a treatment plan, but a diagnosis can never adequately describe an individual's disease.

All of this isn't really on-topic, but I wanted to say it.

I'm sorry to hear about your mother's friend, that's something that's really hard to go through. And what you said is exactly right about the diagnosis, it's a basis for creating a plan of action, especially in mental illness where you can't look in someone's ear and say "oh wow, voices and extreme sadness, you must have ...." Not that a diagnoses of other kinds are easy, don't get me wrong, just that it's hard to classify something that is completely removed from our visual realm (except like PET scans and stuff like that, but as far as I know only schizophrenics have had noticably altered PET scans and those were all performed post-mortem).

 

[Flopotomist]

He should have seeked help for his anger management problem (as another poster said he had a history of assault problems) and his homicidal thoughts. We do know why he killed her, he was Fu@#!@# insane and should have seeked help.

Seeked? Is that a word?

 

[mshheaddoc]

Seeked? Is that a word?

usually not ... sought 😉