Jehovah's Wittnesses going to medical school?

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kreno

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Any Jehovah's Wittnesses here premedical or perhaps in medical school? I'm curious, how do you deal with the blood transfusion beliefs and other ethical issues with the things you are taught and deal w/in medical school? Thanks!

kreno

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That's a tough one.....but the upside is that people are generally incapacitated and unable to run away when you whip out the pamphlets

:laugh:
 
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man whats up these Jehovah's Wittnesses ....are they paid to walk around campuses...one guy i almost beat the crap out of him because he was so persistent...
 
Originally posted by phar
man whats up these Jehovah's Wittnesses ....are they paid to walk around campuses...one guy i almost beat the crap out of him because he was so persistent...
:laugh: :laugh:

There's two smileys, one for peeweee and one for the "pacifist" wanting to beat the crap out of someone for being persistent.

[hint: persistent=determined :eek:]
 
They're really an unique and interesting religous group. Barne's and Noble Bookstores and those kinda bookstores are selling a new, sociological perspective of the religion - it's really interesting.... Andrew Holden is the authoer. The Title is "Jehovah's Witnesses Portrait of a contemporary religious movement"

Their refusual to accept blood transfusions - even if it means death or the death of their child - is what piques my interest. But paradoxically, what is even MORE interesting is how their beliefs have kinda pushed surgeons to refine their techniques and have encouraged research and such into bloodless therapies.

I met a Jehovah's Witness surgeon once when I was in Europe shadowing docs there, and I found it weird, being a doctor, that he held such absoulte, and unaltering beliefs....

hence my question on SND :) I'm interested in talking to someone who is one, thinking of becoming on, or was one :)

kreno
 
Originally posted by kreno


I met a Jehovah's Witness surgeon once when I was in Europe shadowing docs there, and I found it weird, being a doctor, that he held such absoulte, and unaltering beliefs....



kreno

what was his speciality?
 
He was a general surgeon... Greek, but trained in Germany.

why?

Oh, to clarify about my previous post... the reason that Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs which seem to be facilitating movements towards bloodless therapies and less bloddy surgeries is so interesting is because it is a religious group which seems to, paradoxically, be CONTRIBUTING to the advances of medicine - rather than the other way around. Kreno
 
Originally posted by kreno
He was a general surgeon... Greek, but trained in Germany.

why?

Oh, to clarify about my previous post... the reason that Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs which seem to be facilitating movements towards bloodless therapies and less bloddy surgeries is so interesting is because it is a religious group which seems to, paradoxically, be CONTRIBUTING to the advances of medicine - rather than the other way around. Kreno

Well if jehovah's witness are against blood transfusion and health care. That doctor must have a hard time doing surgery since it involves such stuff.


I don't like touching blood or doing surgery. I did an open-surgery observation, i almost puked(i think it was the "smell" when they were "burning" the skin to access the heart). So..i am wondering how that doctor managed it. Can you give more information about he managed it?
 
i meant open heart surgery.
 
They're not against health care! They're against blood transfusions, specifically (but not organ transplants, strangely)... and you're right, it does present with difficulties because he refuses to operate when it is known that a blood-transfusion is needed. Well, more specifically, he doesn't believe blood transfusions are needed anywhere near to the degree for which they are used (although he admits they ARE needed sometimes). Most of his patients, therefore, are ones which agree to not get the transfusion and to use other, so-called bloodless, techniques.... in fact, most of his patients are Jehovah's Witnesses.


Kreno
 
Here's a link to some of their beliefs specific to blood tranfusions... specifically, this is a link to an article that was published in JAMA a long time ago... you can navigate through the links from there (see the table of contents on the left-hand side of the screen)....

http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/index.htm?article=article_06.htm

thoughts/ideas?

kreno :)
 
Originally posted by kreno
Here's a link to some of their beliefs specific to blood tranfusions... specifically, this is a link to an article that was published in JAMA a long time ago... you can navigate through the links from there (see the table of contents on the left-hand side of the screen)....

http://www.watchtower.org/library/hb/index.htm?article=article_06.htm

thoughts/ideas?

kreno :)

That was interesting. I am familiar with jehovah's witnesses except that one guy who didn't like how he was approaching me and my friends.

By the way, how did the doctor did with such training in medical school? Do you have any articles on that or do yourself know how he delt with it?
 
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To return to your comment about J Ws contributing to the advancement of bloodless therapy...

I don't believe J Ws are necessarily the only driving force behind doing Sx with limited blood/transfusions. There are MANY reasons why using blood should be limited. Every time blood is used there is increased risk of a mistake and complications (remember Duke and the little girl). And I know that if I ever need sx that I would like to lose as little blood as possible. So, J Ws, in my opinion, don't really contribute to the advancement of medicine. Maybe they are just a good population to test the procedures on.

streetdoc
 
Hi.

Certainly I wasn't saying they are the ONLY force behind such research; everyone knows blood is dangerous and generally a last resort kinda thing.

What I'm interested in finding out, however, is just HOW MUCH have JH contributed....

No, i don't know anything more about that Doctor who was a JH, sorry.

kreno
 
Yesterday at work in the ED Jehovah's Witness came in from a car accident, really dinged his left chest, worried about spleen.

He was lucid, though, and adamant about no blood products. I'm fine with that. People make irrational decisions about their health care every day; to smoke, to not see the doctor about that bump, to not buckle up. At least JW's make a conscious decision.

Anyway, I asked him and his family various questions about their beliefs and how they approach the issue of blood products.

I informed them about the use of Oxyglobin in veterinary medicine. It is bovine blood that has had the erythrocytes lysed, so that it just the free hemoglobin. No membrane = no transfusion reactions. And it is non-human. I asked them if they would accept oxyglobin when it becomes approved for humans.

This was not a question they had ever considered.

The patient answered "I don't think I would." He seemed to imply that his answer was both provisional and personal.
 
What would be the consequences if you were a surgeon, and your patient was a Jehova's Witness who told you that he did not want a blood transfusion. During the surgery things started going bad, and you knew he was going to die without it, so you gave it to him to save his life?

I have my own religious beliefs that I would be willing to die for as well, so I can understand how they may feel about this. However, it would be really hard for me to prevent treatment of their young child, because it is not necessarily the child's beliefs, more the parent's. Hopefully I will never be in one of those situations:confused: .
 
Seems to me that a Jehovah's Witness surgeon wouldn't have a problem giving a blood transfusion to a patient whose religeous beliefs don't prohibit it (the same way I'm supposed to honor the religeous beliefs of pts who hold different beliefs than I do). Al least I would hope the JW doc would honor my belief.

I agree, however that it is good for a variety of resons to develop alternatives to blood transfusions
 
My mom (an OB/GYN nurse) said this has happened several times before during her career. The Doctors always did the operations/transfusions anyway and told the parents to sue them.
 
Yeah, delicate situations for sure.

The thing with JW though is that they are reasonable people... historically, however, they have changed what they are and are not allowed to receive w/regards to medical care. For example, in the 50's i think it was they weren't allowed to get vacinated.. but that soon changed.

Another thing that I have heard happens w/JW is the person who needs blood, usually cancer patients, etc, will refuse blood products in front of the family, and privately request them (if needed) and ask that the family not be informed. This has happened several times with the oncologist i shadowed.

Nevertheless, their beliefs are generally strong, and not without reason... the bible is pretty clear about using blood products (I'm not a believer in the bible, but if I were, I could see their point).
 
Originally posted by kreno


Nevertheless, their beliefs are generally strong, and not without reason... the bible is pretty clear about using blood products

I guess I have never really studied what the Bible says about using blood products. Anyone know which scriptures mentions this? Just interested in this topic.
 
I happen to have a JW pamphlet with me right now.
According to their interpretation of the bible,

"Is it wrong to accept a blood transfusion? Remember, Jehova requires that we abstain from blood. This means that we must not take into our bodies in any way at all other peoples blood or even our own blood that has been stored."

Acts 21:25

"So true Christians will not accept a blood transfusion. They will accept other kinds of medical treatment, such as transfusions of nonblood products. They want to live, but they will not try to save their life by breaking God's laws."

Matthew 16:25
 
a pamphlet or one of their magazine publications the "AWAKE!" or The "WatchTower"?


There are several scriptures they use to interpret their justification for refusing blood transfusions.

Ironically, however, they do accept organ transplantations - I believe.

Kreno
 
From the New International Version (NIV)

Acts 21:25
"As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

very similar to Acts 15:20
"Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood."

It sounds to me like the writer was referring to abstaining from the blood of animals that were sacrificed.
 
its a pamphlet titled "What does God require of us?"

it basically outlines their beliefs, practices, and organization.


As for the scriptures, I think they have interpreted them wrong. Its hard to see how they get "no transfusions" from them. But I am by no mean a biblical scholar.
 
If a competent adult refuses blood products, you cannot give them. If you do, you risk being sued and I imagine your licensure would be in jeopardy (treatment without consent).

However, adults are not allowed to refuse lifesaving treatment for their minor children. So, in the case of a JW adult telling the doctor that the his/her son should not receive blood, the doctor should give the blood anyway (assuming it is a lifesaving intervention) and would be protected under the law for doing so.
 
a doctor is the only advocate for his patient. A child is having decisions made for him all the time. Some he may not like.

In caring for a child who faces a life threatening surgery and needs a blood transfusion, the doctor has full leeway to do so even if it violates the parents beliefs. The USSC has ruled as such that to NOT do so would subject the child to eminent death when a probability of saving him/her was available without much fuss.

JW's believe it will send them to hell based on one line in the OT. So what will mom and dad say once 6 yr old Sarah had a transfusion?

Hi, this is our daughter Sarah WHOSE GOING TO HELL BECAUSE A DOCTOR GAVE HER A TRANSFUSION!!!! And how are you?

No, they'll abandon that belief as quickly as leaving a house filed with Wiccans.
 
I'm too lazy to get the scriptures out.. i don't even have a bible at my house here. but, their interpretation is pretty reasonable, given the context of the translations, etc. What is evident is that god thinks blood is something "sacred" and i believe it is that sacredness which prevents them from using it.

However, before you make judgments... make sure to know the facts. Respectfully, JW do NOT believe "you will go to hell" if you use blood. In fact, they don't even believe in hell.

In any regard, are there ANY physicians or PREMEDS out there that are JW? If so, please Private message me or post because I have SO many questions :)

kreno
 
Presently I have a patient that is dying in the SICU because she is a JW, had surgery during which she lost a great deal of blood and saw her Hgb decrease by 8. During a time when she was not out of it on midazolam she flat out said (and signed) "I would rather die than have a blood transfusion." My attending is pissed that my chief even took the case, but once he did, he agreed to go through with it. During the operation the question arose of whether or not to give blood. Because the legal system has been so clear on this, we didn't even send the issue to the hospital ethics committee, rather we honored her wishes. Now she's in and out of ARDS, and her bone marrow is not responding to epogen, most likely due to other co-morbidities causing anemia of chronic disease. She probably won't make it if her marrow doesn't start responding soon.
 
wow, thanks for the post powermd.

You know, when I face those patients when I become a practicing physician, I think I might try to do my best to convince them, right there, right then, that their belief is scewed. I was looking at the history of JW, and it really is weird... at some points in history they allowed hemoglobin, but not plasma, then not plasma but somethign else, blah blah. I think it would be a really interesting thing to study.

The thing is, you don't want to critisize their beliefs.. that is, you're naturally on a fence, and so you have to be careful not to fall over the wrong way. But, of course, being able to do that entails knowing in great detail the reasons and historical forces behind their beliefs.

In my experience, however, JW's knowledge about why they don't take blood is pretty limited.. basically limited to a narrow interpretation of some scriptures - which they let their so-called "governing body" interpret for them....

with the idea in mind, that generally, JW are very reasonable... or, that's how they like to think of themselves, perhaps dealing with them would be with factual, reasonable methods.

I kinda am thinking about researchin this topic for my thesis in my school next year. I don't know exactly what specifically, but this wohle topic really intrigues me. I mean, it's seems like it's such a great window of opportunity to study modern religion and medicine's juxtoposition/competition.

any ideas?

Kreno
 
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