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Discussion in 'Pathology' started by yaah, May 23, 2005.

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  1. yaah

    yaah Boring SDN Administrator 10+ Year Member

    OK - in addition to the links I posted in the "info websites" thread...

    We at our program met today with Dr Silva in the context of a visiting professorship day (Dr Silva is an expert in renal pathology - medical renal disease, that is) who formerly was chair at Oklahoma and now works at Emory (I think Emory) but is also the Secretary/treasurer and Executive Director of the USCAP. So he knows what he's talking about. During lunch he gave us a presentation on job related issues which was kind of interesting. So, I was thinking of you all and asked like 5 questions, which constituted 5/7 of all the questions people in my program asked him during that talk. ;)

    So - some numbers he gave us (some are estimates based on what I remember, some are more direct quotes)

    In 1999-2000, apparently this was the "low point" for finding a job for graduating path residents. The average number of job offers per resident at graduation was 1.2. Last year, it was about 2.5-3. His overall conclusion based on the data and his position - the job market is very good and is improving.

    He does say that "unless you are 100.0%" (he added in the .0) "sure you want to do academics, you should do AP/CP," although he did add that perhaps this may shift in the future.

    In terms of the pending "glut" in new pathologists in 2006 when the 5 year requirement/4 year requirement classes overlap and both graduate, he says he has talked to department chairs and private practice people all over the country (this is his job) and the uniform opinion is that there will not be trouble finding a job.

    However - he added that 62% of people doing the hiring are interested in subspecialty training - specifically in cyto, hemepath, derm, GI, GYN. He says Surgical Path is not necessarily considered subspecialty training, but it will not hurt you to do a fellowship in it. I specifically asked him about dermpath, because according to his numbers there are 43 programs around the country approved to do dermpath fellowships, and 43 spots. However, there are 68 APPROVED spots, which means either that the programs are not finding qualified applicants (highly unlikely IMHO) or that they are not using this funding to fund actual fellowship spots. He could not provide any more info on why this was so. The # of cyto and hemepath spots continues to grow and both will be in demand. Interestingly, along with this "62%" looking for subspecialty training, only 23% are looking for people with a background in research, and only 16% are looking for strong record of publications. Thus - the lesson - do research if you want and it is a goal of yours - but don't do it to get a job.

    Work hours: The average path worked 45-50 hours/week. about 65% of this time in surg path, 20% in CP and management, and 10% in cytology. 64% of private practice people do not have anything to do with autopsies (I thought it was higher). The trend is increasing time in AP and cyto, and much less in CP. His conclusion - they want people who can cover CP but CP-only private practice jobs are rare.

    Important things to those doing the hiring (I found this fascinating): Rate the importance of the following on a scale from 0-100, 100 being the most important. These are the ones I remember:

    98: Interpersonal skills
    98: Communication
    90-95 (somewhere around there): Diagnostic abilities
    77: Where you did residency
    36: Where you went to medical school
    36: How you do on evaluating unknown slides at the time of your interview.

    In regards to "where you do residency" he said that this matters a lot when looking for private practice jobs because of networking. The best jobs are not advertised, and if you go to residency in Texas and want a private practice job in Southern Cal it might be tougher for you to find the best situation.

    Job issues: The "standard" for workload for years has been recommended to be 1500-2000 surgical specimens per pathologist per year. However, at many private practice institutions this is approaching 10,000 (which he said was rare). However, the 1500-2000 is edging up to an average of 2500-3000.

    I did not ask him about salaries.

    He also mentioned the future job market. He said molecular path is going to become more important, and there is a minority of individuals out there who think that path is going to move away from microscopy and towards computer screens. But he stressed that this is a minority opinion. He said the job market looks good for years to come.

    I asked him specifically about the number of pathology residency spots (about 480 per year) and whether this number was adequate, too much, not enough, or going to change. His reply: Numbers of positions were decreased years ago because of an anticipated glut in physicians in all specialties. And now there is a pending shortage. There is not going to be a glut of pathologists for the next 20-30 years.

    I asked him about "ameripath" and other such assembly line types of jobs - and whether his info on # of job offers per resident, etc, was based a lot on subpar and less desirable jobs. While he said that those jobs do exist, they are not the majority, nor does he believe they are a growing trend. He said that he does not believe there will be a great deal of consolidation in regards to giant conglomerates taking over small practices. he said there is definitely a trend towards moving away from 2 man practices and solo practices towards 5-6 person practices. Small groups are consolidating, i.e.. So I don't think we all have to worry about turning into automatons as in the 1930s movie "metropolis."

    His thoughts on academia vs private practice: He is a lifelong academic, although he has been tempted to go into private practice - although he admitted that he has been offered jobs in the past which were pulled off the table when he told them he was not CP boarded. Now, because he is famous, it is a different story, but he still likes academics and is sticking there. He thinks academics is a great career - and there is much more of a "safety net" in regards to making tough diagnoses (i.e. there is always someone more senior to ask questions of).

    So, take all this for what it's worth. But I tend to trust the opinions and views of someone in his position (who spends his days traveling around the country, talking to different path departments and residents, and dealing with administrative issues like this) much more than individual malcontents who tell us that the job market is miserable because of either a personal difficulty or secondhand hearsay "evidence." This is of course not to say that everyone is going to find a job with ease. Of course it's going to be difficult for some, and the sum of the whole does not necessarily equate to the individual. I just think we need to get our heads out of the whole "the present situation is bleak, and the only thing worse is the future" type of whining.

    No doubt someone will post about how this guy they know heard about someone who graduated from a prestigious program and took a job for 80k in Duluth because that's all he could get. Well, ok then.
     
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  3. geddy

    geddy Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    Wow - awesome post. Thanks a lot for thinking of us when this happened. It's nice to see an informed, optimistic evalutaion of pathology.
     
  4. Ditto. Thanks buddy!
     
  5. yaah

    yaah Boring SDN Administrator 10+ Year Member

    I forgot - he also gave us statistics on "aging" pathologists. He said 37% of current pathologists are over 55, and like 15% are over 65. He says there will be a large amount of retirements soon, although it seems to me as though this has been being said for years.

    He also said that "numbers of retirements may depend on how the stock market does." :laugh:
     
  6. Brian Pavlovitz

    Brian Pavlovitz give me that marrow! 10+ Year Member

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    May 31, 2003
    Thank you, Yaah, for always being a source of great information!! :thumbup:
     
  7. RyMcQ

    RyMcQ Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    Actually, I know the person who took that job last year, and she is getting about 200K to start and 17 weeks vacation (with cyto board certification).

    Thanks for the post, yaah. These numbers make way more sense to me (as someone who has undergone a successful job hunt) than all the doom and gloom posting that is so popular around here.
     
  8. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Jul 24, 2004
    On location
    It appears our (RL) advisors were not very far off at all ;) Thanks for providing the actual numbers.

    Just two questions:
    1. Shall we add this to the FAQs? (before it vanishes off the front page...) - I'd combine the large and little posts myself and send it to you, really I would... but in keeping with my current pace of life, I'm on dial-up :p
    2. How did you get the "JOBS" in the title to stay capitalized (or is this a mod thing)?
     
  9. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    On location
    What had crossed my mind was the prospect of answering yet another question about job prospects once the 2006 cycle starts, say 6 months down the road (and thereafter qyearly, you know how it goes). By which time the free-floating thread would have sunk where the sun don't shine, retrieved on occasion by a poster with the memory of an elephant (elephants never forget)...

    I was just thinking that putting it in the FAQ thread would both sticky it and give it an easily-retrievable fixed address.

    I know I know, you'll probably say that the info would be outdated by that time. Pardon my belabouring the point, I'll let you decide :)
     
  10. tennik

    tennik Member 7+ Year Member

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    Of all the info discussed, I think Freida is the most reliable. For 2003 it states that 537 residents completed training. Of those 537, 43 (11.3%) are practicing in the US. True that 261 are going on to do fellowships, but it is hard to argue that there is a great job market if only 11.3% got jobs in the US!

    I want to believe, make me a believer.
     
  11. gungho

    gungho gungho 10+ Year Member

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    Jun 24, 2002
    behind glass
    Physician
    The way I interpreted that, and someone please correct me if I'm wrong, is that 68% went on to pursue other training, 16% were in academics, almost 3% were in the military or left the country and only 1.6% were unemployed, with 11% in private practice-so it doesn't seem as bad as it looks at first. Plus, 29% are unaccounted for in the statistics.
     
  12. tennik

    tennik Member 7+ Year Member

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    Jan 2, 2004
    That's how I read it, but 11% working in the private sector after residency, that is crazy.
     
  13. QuietSylph

    QuietSylph Senior Member 10+ Year Member

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    Feb 3, 2003
    Ultimately, once all fellowships etc. are completed, the split is usually something like 70% private sector and 30% academics. Or, at least, that's what I've been quoted. The 11% figure is way off, so don't get too worked up about it. ;)
     
  14. Pathdoc2004

    Pathdoc2004 New Member

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    I got to tell you guys pathology is a cool field but the job market is like a noose and it is tightening!

    A lot of the old guys who should be hang up their scopes are not planning on leaving. They are like the energizer battery the keep on ticking.

    You guys thinking about path just realize the it sucks being in a field without a job. Think about it. All that hard work 180,000 grand in debt and your working in a Denny's to make ends meet.


    Tell you it is a lot easier to find a job in Orth, Peds, or IM.

    Some offers out there is like 75K by mills that make you look at 10 trays every 4 hours.

    Those old creepy guys are squeezing their young to make up for their losses in rembursement.

    BEWARE OF PATHOLOGY..........IT SUCKS!!

    You don't want to be unemployed! :eek:
     
  15. yaah

    yaah Boring SDN Administrator 10+ Year Member

    Thanks for scaring everyone off and probably creating another 50 threads about "job market" and such. Most people don't seem to share your view.
     
  16. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    On location
    This is just silly. Up to half the "old guys" are being called out of retirement because departments are short-staffed - and could use the expertise. Finishing residency and fellowship doesn't automatically make one the world authority in any specialty.
     
  17. CameronFrye

    CameronFrye Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    Feb 13, 2005

    SoCalRules, is that you? If so, I greatly underestimated you. Perhaps you aren't the no-talent ass clown I took you for. I commend you on a job well done! I eagerly await your posts definitively showing that none of the top 50 medical schools sent someone into pathology this year. I also can't wait to hear how Southen California is the cultural center of the universe! Now run along and work on your radiology application. We don't want you to miss out on that 7 figure starting salary.
     
  18. I don't think we should all jump on and be all harsh to pathdoc2004. To think that the job market in pathology is "good" would be misguided.

    If the path job market was good, then AP only folks and CP only folks would not be necessarily confined to academia and would have better safety nets. The fact that people feel obligated to do AP/CP to increase their marketability is an indirect indication of how the job market is short of stellar.

    People are having to do not just one fellowship after residency but more than one fellowship to add more credentials to their resumes. The fact that credential inflation is so pervasive in pathology is a testament that the pathology job market is less than ideal.
     
  19. CameronFrye

    CameronFrye Senior Member 7+ Year Member

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    Feb 13, 2005

    Well, the job market may not be anything like it is for anesthesia or radiology, but I don't know of any residents who haven't been able to find a job. In fact, I know of a couple residents who were hired as lab directors straight out of residency without even doing a fellowship. Of course, these jobs were in small "less desirable" areas (which happens to be the sort of area I am interested in going) and the residents were also from a well-regarded program. I have a pretty good feeling that you won't be unemployed once you finish up at the Brigham ;)
     
  20. GreatPumpkin

    GreatPumpkin Mystical Treatbringer 10+ Year Member

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    Mar 23, 2001
    Indiana
  21. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Jul 24, 2004
    On location
    This is awesome! I cannot believe I never even noticed the Jobs link on the Pathology Outlines page. Thanks.
     
  22. Big Daddy

    Big Daddy Junior Member

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    Durham, NC
    An additional source of job info is the College of American Pathologists website (www.cap.org). Look under the Member Resources Tab for the Online Career Center. You can see job listings by geographic area. You may have to be a CAP Junior Member, but membership is free to residents, so why not? The site also gives CV, job search and interview tips.

    I have no idea why that one fellow is so bitter about the job market. All of our graduating residents got either their first choice of fellowship programs or had a job contract in hand well-before graduation. Many of residents who went into private practice had multiple job offers to choose from. The only issue typically is that you need to be flexible with your geographic constraints.

    In response to the person who wrote about needing more than one fellowship, I would say that I disagree STRONGLY! Most community practice jobs (where 70% of pathologists are employed) do not require fellowships, and some old-timers (who are typically the ones who are the senior partners doing the interviewing) even feel that it is not good to be too specialized for a general practice pathology group.

    That being said, I will be doing a fellowship in cytopathology, but more for the fact that I think it will increase my surgical path skills than because I think I need it to get a job.

    Now is a great time to be in pathology. Anyone who has gone to one of our national meetings can see that the average age of the pathologist is quite high, and we are on the cusp of a big position turnover. BOTTOM LINE: if residents at a program you are considering complain about not being able to find a job, you may want to consider training somewhere else.
     
  23. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    4,703
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    Jul 24, 2004
    On location
  24. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Jul 24, 2004
    On location
    I don't know if this has been posted anywhere else (I haven't had the time to scroll through the "Path info website" sticky for instance) but I thought this was important:

    On the College of American Pathologists website:
    Career Development Resources for Residents and Young Pathologists

    Tons of relevant reading material, for both the branches of private practice and academia.

    Oh and if you read Karen Titus's "Job seekers: Prepare for landing" about halfway down the page, you'll see how the list of questions to ask and the list of questions asked of you doesn't really change... :)

    [Edit:]Yes I see now that Big Daddy posted pretty much the same info two posts ago! But I guess since the questions are still getting asked, I'll leave this post up.
     
  25. Gut Shot

    Gut Shot 10+ Year Member

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    Just got back from a CAP teleconference regarding the business of pathology. This data was cited from a very recent survey:

    Experienced pathologist (n=147)
    1% less than 100K
    11% 100-150K
    35% 150-250K
    26% 250-350K
    16% 350-500K
    12% greater than 500K

    Entry-level pathologist (n=145)
    10% less than 100K
    44% 100-150K
    38% 150-250K
    6% 250-350K
    1% 350-500K
    1% greater than 500K

    Entry-level with subspecialty training/boards (n=144)
    3% less than 100K
    40% 100-150K
    46% 150-250K
    10% 250-350K
    1% 350-500K
    0% greater than 500K

    I’m assuming these numbers represent recent graduated from 5-year programs with and without subspecialty training. I will be curious to see how grads of 4-year programs fare without fellowships in the coming years.
     
  26. Smitty

    Smitty Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    Hey everybody, it's been a while since I've posted, hope everyone's residency is going well, and good luck to the new class interviewing now. Speaking of jobs, what's up with forensic path jobs? Everybody goes on and on about the ton of FP jobs out there, so where are they? I go on websites like National Association of Medical Examiners and AAFS and see maybe 3 or 4 advertised positions. Meanwhile there appear to be tons of positions listed on CAP, etc for surgical pathologists. I realize that most positions are not advertised to begin with, but what gives? Whenever I ask anyone this I usually get the same reply: "I would think there would be tons of forensic jobs out there, because nobody wants to do it". Is this really true, or are these people just clueless? I know most of you guys aren't into FP anyway, but if anyone out there can shed some light on the situation, let me know. Thanks!
     
  27. gungho

    gungho gungho 10+ Year Member

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    behind glass
    Physician
    I'd be curious about this as well-FP has crossed my mind, too, and have heard the same about supposed plethora of jobs, etc. Interesting that may not be the case or maybe it's just all relative...
     
  28. djmd

    djmd an Antediluvian 7+ Year Member

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    Regarding the Differenece between # of spots and approved spots.
    The issuse is I think fairly universially, funding.
    I think most Graduate Medical Education departments are not funding all the slots that a department is approved for. Approved slots are mostly based on volume (do you look at enough blank (Derm, Cyto, etc), but funding has to come from somewhere. Programs will seek the number slots they can prove the volume for and then only fund the ones they want.

    Personally, my program has 2 cyto spots (usually only one funded) and 2 derm spots, and they just changed to two funded derm (has been one for a long time)
     
  29. garfield

    garfield Member 10+ Year Member

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    Dec 13, 2003
    I have started looking for a job and wanted to warn those of you of a trend that may be happening in the corporate world. An unanticipated response I have received as someone who is not yet board certified (will be taking the boards this summer) from a large, commercial lab is that they will not even offer a job until someone has already received board certification (not just board eligibility). I hope this is an isolated situation, but it certainly is worrisome that other labs and practices may follow suit.

    Does anyone out there have a good job for me?

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  30. deschutes

    deschutes Thing Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    Jul 24, 2004
    On location
    Per LADoc00:

    Points to hit in the interview/negotiation process

    I. Partnership-track
    A. Time as associate to partner
    B. Buy in amount
    C. Structure of buy in
    D. Buy out amount
    E. Provisions for death/disability of partners and associates
    F. Provisions for additional income as an associate

    II. Vacation
    A. Holidays
    B. Call schedule division
    C. Buy back of unused vacation

    III. Scope of Services
    A. Procedures: FNA, Bone Marrows
    B. Gyn cytology volume
    C. Bone marrow volume
    D. Surgical volume
    E. Clinical lab duties
    1. Acuity level of hospitals covered-trauma, and neurosurgery

    IV. Outpatient volume
    A. Volume as a % of total business
    B. Local and regional competitors

    V. Hospital contracts
    A. Length of exclusive hospital contracts and number (%) of partners listed on primary hospital contracts
    B. Number of hospitals covered and total number of beds at each
    C. Response time for frozen sections and any limitations on housing distance
    D. Local competing pathology groups

    VI. Benefits package
    A. Health coverage for pathologist and family including co-pays and deductibles
    B. Dental and vision benefits package
    C. Retirement plan
    D. Relocation and housing expenses
    E. Educational expenses and CME time off
    F. Termination benefits including severance pay

    VII. Prior employment history
    A. Number of associates employed over the last 5 years
    B. Ratio of number of associates employed to number receiving formal partnership offers
    C. Explanation for those associates not receiving partnership

    VIII. Pathologist lifestyle
    A. Typical hours worked per week and schedule
    B. Number of mandatory hospital conferences attended for the group
    C. Intradepartment consultation format
    D. Interdepartmental consultation availability
    E. Work performed on weekends

    Clearly indicate you will not sign "no-compete" clauses in any form whatsoever.

    What MUST be in writing:
    vacation
    hours expectation
    salary and benefits explanation
    evaluation timeframes for partnership
    paid moving expenses if offered

    From http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=339498
     
  31. wook

    wook Just a hairy situation 10+ Year Member

  32. yaah

    yaah Boring SDN Administrator 10+ Year Member

  33. Ale

    Ale 2+ Year Member

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    Jan 3, 2008
    The jobs for FP are out there, employers just call the fellowships as opposed to posting them. It is cheaper.
    A class mate of mine was offered an attending position soon after signing his fellowship contract. When he finished training, he went somewhere else. My chief resident also did FP and found a job at a very prestigious institution.

    For surg path it's different, but follows as similar format. Our surg path fellowship coordinator gets 1 or 2 job applicantion requests per month for jobs that aren't even posted on the internet.

     
  34. yaah

    yaah Boring SDN Administrator 10+ Year Member

  35. Pathjob

    Pathjob

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    Jun 17, 2009

    Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct. I wish I had left after a few years, but stuck it out.
     
  36. Pathjob

    Pathjob

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    They have said that now for twenty years. An insufficient number died to permit the job market to open.

    If you are brilliant and have a great eye, there will be a job somewhere; it will not be a great location and the pay will not be great, but there will be a job. Many places love to hire fellows and residents out of training because they can then fire them after 1.5 years to extend that generosity to another hungry fellow. The main thing is not to persist in staying in pathology if you are not one of the favored few (such as those related to a partner in a practice). Choose another field of medicine rather than another fellowship
     
  37. 2121115

    2121115 7+ Year Member

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    Jan 23, 2007

    Damn. Wow. That is dismal.
     
  38. pathstudent

    pathstudent Sound Kapital 10+ Year Member

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    Mar 17, 2003
    Here is a job offer for an academic pediatric pathologist

    Pediatric Pathologist Job Description

    Childrenis National Medical Center in Washington, DC has recently created a new
    Division of Anatomic Pathology (fall 2008) and is seeking an additional
    pathologist. The division has undergone renewal in both staffing and physical
    environment, and has become a dynamic, energized division on a trajectory of
    rapid progress and growth.
    CNMC is a 284 bed hospital housing many active services including bone marrow
    transplant, cardiothoracic surgery, hematology, oncology, neurooncology,
    critical care, gastroenterology and neurology. There is a new 53 bed NICU as
    well as new operating rooms. CNMC has just established the Sheikh Zayed
    Institute for Pediatric Surgical Innovation with a $150 million dollar
    donation. For the year 2009, the division will process approximately 7000
    surgicals and non-gyn cytologies as well as 300 bone marrows. Approximately 45
    autopsies are performed annually.
    Because of the growth and vision of the new division, additional professional
    staff is needed for the service work, educational endeavors and research
    activities of the Division. In particular, a hematopathology service is now
    fully operational, and hence a candidate with a particular interest and/or
    training in hematopathology is desirable. A pathologist trained in
    hematopathology with an interest in learning basic pediatric pathology would be
    one pathway to obtaining the skills set needed. Additionally, the Division is
    focused on providing continually improving, patient-centered pediatric
    pathology services and hence plays a busy, interactive role in patient care,
    communicating with clinicians and other staff, as well as patient care
    conferences. The successful candidate must have excellent interpersonal skills
    and work well as part of a team. Additionally, as the only free standing
    Childrenis hospital in the area, pathology residents from many institutions
    come here for their pediatric pathology experience (including specifically
    hematopathology experience) and hence the successful candidate should have
    interest and skill in providing a quality educational environment. Finally,
    innumerable research opportunities exist for the interested candidate.
    Interested candidates must possess an M.D. or equivalent degree, be board
    certified in anatomic (and preferably also in clinical) pathology, and be board
    certified or board eligible in hematopathology and/or pediatric pathology.
    They should send their curriculum vitae to:
    Chris Reyes, MD
    Clinical Director
    Division of Anatomic Pathology
    Childrenis National Medical Center
    111 Michigan Ave NW
    Washington, DC 20010
    [email protected]
     
  39. zao275

    zao275 Assistant Professor 10+ Year Member

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    Sep 3, 2004
    Little Rock, AR
    Physician
    I will also post this here for those searching for jobs in the future:

    I have been asked multiple times recently regarding where to search for pathology jobs. To my knowledge there is no open and free website for posting pathology job listings. The pathologyoutlines.com listing is nice but some jobs may not be listed there as it requires a fee. With that in mind, I created a pathology job wiki page to serve as a free directory/list of available jobs. I hope that in time it will be useful to everyone. Obviously, this is a new experiment with the wiki, so it could fail completely, be left unused, or be covered in spam. But I figure it is worth a try to see if it might work. Please check it out:

    Pathology Job Wiki: http://pathinfo.wikia.com/wiki/Pathology_Job_Wiki
     

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