Keeping your name?

[criminallyinane]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Because that's the way it's been done for centuries. Why change a tradition that makes identification of family easy through time? Why do something that distinguishes you from other members of your family? Why even appear to be freakish in some ridiculous attempt at a powergrab? (which is what it is).

I dislike the tradition because it is rooted in men "owning" their wives. I disagree with the origin of this tradition, and by blindly following it, I feel I am tacitly making it "okay," when to me, it is far from okay.

Keeping my name or having my husband and I take on both of each other's last names is not distinguishing myself from my family. My children with have my last name in some way, I guarantee you.

It is not a powergrab. This seems like the go-to argument for people who disagree with feminist opinion -- saying that women are after power. But by saying this, you're implying that there is power there to take. Does a man have power over his wife by making her take his name? If so, I object to this tradition. Does a woman have power over her husband by having each of them keep their own name? No. It seems to me that it shows equity between the partners - not that one is better or more powerful than the other. Making your spouse change her name is a power grab, not keeping each other's names.

Are you claiming you're better and more sensitive than those who came before you, somehow more understanding? Because that's a pretty shallow concept of sensitivity.

Um, no. Where did you come up with this? It's a doozy!

You can argue that my adherence to cultural traditions is shallow if you want, but I do think there is very much a meaning behind each act, one that holds its own duties and expectations.

I didn't argue that.

[It appears I (and several other people on this thread) put a greater emphasis on tradition and family in my life than you.

Maybe on some traditions, but certainly not on family.

I would like to think of my name as a gift bestowed on one woman I hold dearest above all others.

And why wouldn't her name be a gift to you? Is your name better than hers, does it have more value? If so, why? If not, what makes it a "gift?" Does it bestow upon her rights and privileges she as yet wasn't privy to with her maiden name? What if she wanted to give her name as a gift to you? Is that not okay? And is it because she has a vagina and you have a penis? Why does your anatomy make a difference?

I would hope that when I find someone I marry, her hangups over her last name won't matter so much that she takes takes it as an insult to bear my name, but does so with honor.

I hope you find someone like that since that is the only type of woman it seems you can tolerate.

And it will, afterall, be her hangup. It's common knowledge that this is the way things have been done for centuries. The very fact that you would want to change this suggests you somehow believe you're better/different than those who came before you.

No, it doesn't. It signifies that I believe this tradition is outdated and that I personally do not agree with it. My mother took my dad's name, and I certainly don't think I'm better than her.

Why?

Why what?

And don't give me this garbage about suffrage or women in the workforce. Those are very much issues of rights. This is one of tradition. It is also one of uprooting a tradition for nothing more than selfish motives.

I believe it is my right to keep my name. I believe it is my husband's right to keep his. I believe that for either of us to insist that the other give up their birth name is what would be truly selfish. I believe it is selfish of men to take it as as personal insult if a woman does not want to give up her name (and to some women, her identity) for you just because you have a penis.

Just to clarify:

You believe that humans born with a penis should expect that their partners (born with vaginas) have to change their birth name in order to not be selfish.

You also believe that humans born with a vagina are selfish if they expect to keep their own birth name.

So, what is it about the penis and the vagina, exactly, that make these humans so different from each other, and what is it about this anatomy that makes the penis name more important than the vagina name?

 

[lorelei]

I dislike the tradition because it is rooted in men "owning" their wives.

Yup. Why do you think the tradition is the way it is? It's because traditionally, women DID become their husbands' property, or essentially so. They didn't have their own lives; they had whatever lives their husbands chose to allow them. And they had their husbands' names as well.

I don't disrespect tradition, and I'm going to follow a lot of the traditions that my parents did. But not the ones that I find offensive.

Or, you know, maybe I should be really traditional and refrain from voting, stay at home despite the fact that my career is important to me, let my husband make all the decisions, and have my female children act essentially as servants to the male ones. (That last is a tradition from not far back at all in my family. Should I follow it for tradition's sake? Or should I recognize that it's offensive, no longer applicable, and harmful to the girls, and scrap it while respecting the decisions my grandmother made?)

I do want to stress that I think it's up to each individual couple to decide what's best for them. Several of my friends have chosen to have the woman take the man's last name, and that worked for them. They feel that the tradition is old and outdated enough that it's no longer offensive, similarly to the way that having your dad give you away no longer implies that he's literally giving you, his property, away to your husband. And they aren't particularly attached to their names. I feel differently and shouldn't be expected to follow the tradition just for tradition's sake when I feel uncomfortable with it.

 

[criminallyinane]

I do want to stress that I think it's up to each individual couple to decide what's best for them. Several of my friends have chosen to have the woman take the man's last name, and that worked for them. They feel that the tradition is old and outdated enough that it's no longer offensive, similarly to the way that having your dad give you away no longer implies that he's literally giving you, his property, away to your husband. And they aren't particularly attached to their names. I feel differently and shouldn't be expected to follow the tradition just for tradition's sake when I feel uncomfortable with it.

I agree. My sister-in-law took my last name (and her husband's, my brother's.) I think that's great because it works for her and it's what she wanted. Now she is an Inane 🙂 and it is fun to say "it's just us Inanes around here now!" It works for her.

For me, it wouldn't. I still want my family to have a unified name, so like I have said before, I will ask my husband to take my name and I will take his, so that our names become:

First Middle Mine His (no hyphen)

Our kids will have the same format of name.

This way, we each keep our own names, we each take each other's names. I can't think of anything more unified than that. And there will be no name confusion for our kids.

This will work for ME. I respect the right of others to do what is best for them. I don't respect the idea that men can just "expect" their wives to put aside their feelings to conform to the male's opinion.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Personally, I'm starting to think that the best solution is to invent a purely new name out of whole cloth when you get married and be done with it. As doctors, think of all the cool opportunities this would allow us. We could become Dr. Cox, or Dr. Ross, Dr. Carter, Dr. Grey, Dr. Evil, etc. Or if TV/movies aren't your bag, there's Dr. Love the Love Doctor, Dr. Doctor (gimme the news!), Dr. Dre... ooh, the possibilities.

Just as long as she doesn't suggest "Phil" as the last name. That would be grounds for breaking the engagement

 

[Dr.Akula]

women should really have no choice in the matter. they should just do what their husbands allow them to, and in the meantime service the pipes and wash the dishes.

 

[CTG]

It is SO not because I'm at ALL feminist...I would say I'm the most old-fashioned girl out there but after reading some of the posts I'll refrain from saying that!

That's not exactly what I'd call refraining

 

[CTG]

I'm pretty sure Hakashi is just a troll account... nobody in reality is THAT twisted, are they? well, some members of the Taliban maybe...

Please. I do not support the Taliban in any way, but offhanded comments like that really piss me off. Let's just not be judgmental...remember, to the Taliban, we're the crazy evil ones. It's all perspective.

 

[CTG]

BTW, forbidden comma, i wasn't trying to attack you in my last post. I actually really liked your other posts, just for some reason that Taliban thing struck a cord w/ me.

 

[tigress]

Some guys think that women who don't want to change their names aren't "traditional" enough. I find that interesting. I already mentioned that a good friend of mine as well as my sister-in-law both kept their maiden names. They both live the same traditional lifestyle I live. What exactly is traditional to you? You won't find many more "traditional" people in American than me (unless you're looking to the Amish).

What that means to me is that I follow many traditions of my faith. What it doesn't mean is that I should not be an independent person, a strong woman, politically liberal, etc. Some posters seem to think that a woman taking a man's name is akin to going to church on Sunday, but I just don't see it. Many cultures do not have the same naming practice, and it's certainly not rooted in Judaio-Christian history. In Judaism we have both matrilineal and patrilineal descent; for example, religion is passed down through the mother, but priesthood through the father. And when we say a person's name, if he is sick and we are praying for him he is the son of his mother, and if he is being called for a religious duty he is the son of his father.

It's simply ignorant to assume that people who want to keep their names are crazy, anti-tradition, etc. There are many reasons to keep a name, all of which are valid.

 

[akpete]

Are you going to be one of those boys who doesn't follow the law of God?
You are a slug. No mind. No brain. Furthermore, are you going to be one of those boys who stays at home while your dominatrix goes out to work? Tool. Get some balls.

I'm a girl, idiot.

shut the hell up.

 

[45408]

"However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God." 1 Corinthians 11:11-12

"The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and LIKEWISE also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does." 1 Corinthians 7: 3-4

the way I read the Text, everything goes 2 ways

Many people misinterpret the Bible as saying that the husband should be ruling like a dictator over his wife, but that's not the idea. The role model of a husband is Christ - who led his disciples, but he also washed their feet as a sign of humility and service. "Honey, get me a beer" is not what the Bible is referring to. It's a position of great responsibility, and it does not indicate superiority in any way.

 

[aliendroid]

“Any woman who keeps her last name is a feminist and the man should seriously reconsider marrying her. I think it would be logical to conclude these types of women don't want many children and/or don't want to do the majority of the domestic house work. Stay away from these women at all costs.” -Hakashi

Hakashi, you are really hard core bro. What you don’t realize is that most men will agree with what you say, however the way things work between men and women in the adult world is you let the women say what they have to say and then you nod your head… “yes honey.”
All this is petty. If you are a man that doesn’t have to worry about his place, who is confident enough to realize that he as a future doctor has it made in the shade, then you wouldn’t have to even discuss this.

If you don’t agree with these women, then don’t date or marry them. If you have trouble finding a woman that isn’t a feminist, then go to Asia, Eastern Europe/Russia or Latin America to find a wife when you are ready and they will jump all over you.

“All of the men I've been in relationships with in the past seem to not mind dating a woman who believes she is his equal. Neither does my current boyfriend.” -criminallyinane

Women should always be an equal in a relationship, no matter what her background, education level, or political affiliation is. To treat a woman as inferior is to take away her humanity. Hakashi, a woman with a more simple background in which men traditionally abuse women will think of you as a saint if you treat her like an equal.

“I personally am looking for a man to change his last name to MINE!!!! and I want my kids to have MY last name. Me and my bf have actually gotten into many arguments about this.”

You should also try beating him so he can go to the domestic abuse center and represent for us dudes over there. We are very underrepresented.

“This country will be where it should be in twenty years. Abortion will be outlawed. Gay marriage will continue to be outlawed. The number of women in medicine will decrease and Christianity will be the government.” -Hakashi

You don’t want the number of women in medicine to decline, more women M.D.s only improves life for you if you make it into medicine, Hakashi. Think of it like this. When you are a single man in medical school. You are surrounded by relatively attractive female medical students, then you have the nursing students and on top of that the gold-diggers and the single available family members of friends and acquaintances and you still have the choice of finding a foreign bride (which becomes easier and easier today due to the internet). You will be in male chauvinist hog heaven. It’s about choices and you can pick your future wife based on looks, physical traits, and also personal beliefs, so quit hating on these professional women and just live your life. You should not be mean to these ladies because they help advance society.


“The biggest problem with your economic theory is that you're going to get what you have in Europe right now if we adopt it in this country. Namely, that birth rates are going to decline to the point that the population begins to shrink, economic output and growth is stymied, and the tax base dries up. Such a society is simply not sustainable.” -NPursuit

Don’t worry buddy, we Hispanics won’t let that happen here. We’ll have this place looking like mexico in no time.


“Yes, the keyworld in your quotation is girl, not woman. I will not marry a girl. I will marry a woman. A woman realizes her first responsibility is to her children and husband. Her career is second to that.”

Hakashi, I’m a guy and I feel that my primary responsibility will always be to my wife and children, then after them comes career, however I expect them to be comfortable sharing me with medicine. I want a woman who’s primary concern is her family, then her career also, but you shouldn’t expect it to go just one-way.

“no woman is going to serve you, get over it, unless you want a mail order bride from the homeland that you're parents bought.” -wends

Please marry a shallow, selfish man to compliment you, otherwise, a husband should serve his wife and a wife should serve her husband. And the mail order bride thing is a myth, you can’t order someone through the mail, you use a matching service, somewhat like match.com but it’s designed for American guys and foreign ladies. The foreign ladies will still have to choose the guy she wants to be her husband, so a man will still have to treat her right, but they are traditionally much less picky. Another cool thing is that in certain areas marriage of American men to foreign women have much lower divorce rates. Russia is the exception, they divorce like crazy. In a study by US immigration, marriage between Latin American women and American men have very very low divorce and separation rates, with most divorces happening within the first year.
http://www.usaimmigrationattorney.com/MarriageLongevityRates.html




Hakashi, I love the american woman and her desire to make something better of herself. You should stop hating and just live your life they way you want to, because you will be able to have what ever the hell you want anyway. So good luck with med school everyone

 

[jmk]

wow, not reallly sure if / what to say....

I'm female and if you ask ANYONE who knows me I don't tend to fit into "normal" classifications of my gender, race, age, choice of professions etc.

I don't want my bf to ask me to marry him w/ a dimond, that money would be better spent on rock climbing gear, or a trip to africa

I imagine due to my crazy independance I will actually be the one who "pops the question"

I wouldn't date 99.9999999999999% of the population!
Even if they offered to pay for medical school 🙂
I disagree with almost all of the views that humans have in the world and that makes me happy.

I also realize that many "men" don't have a strong enough self-confidence to date me: No skin off my back.

I worked for 25 years to get into medical school and I'll work for four more years to graduate. No man (or other woman) did that for me.

I am glad to live in a country where I can be outraged enough by my fellow citizens to stay motivated enough to keep trying to change our country.

Changing my name is something I look forward to only because I don't particularly like my name. The best part of being a woman in 2005 is that I can make this and other choices for myself. I hope the best part of being a woman for my daughters is to not have to defend making choices for themselves!

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I wouldn't date 99.9999999999999% of the population!
Even if they offered to pay for medical school 🙂

I, on the other hand, would gladly sell my body to any woman willing to pay for my med school. 😉

 

[primadonna22274]

Hallelujah, an enlightened man! God bless America!
I MIGHT take his name if I found one as lovely as this one!
Thanks aliendroid (I assume you have a name),
Lisa

“Any woman who keeps her last name is a feminist and the man should seriously reconsider marrying her. I think it would be logical to conclude these types of women don't want many children and/or don't want to do the majority of the domestic house work. Stay away from these women at all costs.” -Hakashi

Hakashi, you are really hard core bro. What you don’t realize is that most men will agree with what you say, however the way things work between men and women in the adult world is you let the women say what they have to say and then you nod your head… “yes honey.”
All this is petty. If you are a man that doesn’t have to worry about his place, who is confident enough to realize that he as a future doctor has it made in the shade, then you wouldn’t have to even discuss this.

If you don’t agree with these women, then don’t date or marry them. If you have trouble finding a woman that isn’t a feminist, then go to Asia, Eastern Europe/Russia or Latin America to find a wife when you are ready and they will jump all over you.

“All of the men I've been in relationships with in the past seem to not mind dating a woman who believes she is his equal. Neither does my current boyfriend.” -criminallyinane

Women should always be an equal in a relationship, no matter what her background, education level, or political affiliation is. To treat a woman as inferior is to take away her humanity. Hakashi, a woman with a more simple background in which men traditionally abuse women will think of you as a saint if you treat her like an equal.

“I personally am looking for a man to change his last name to MINE!!!! and I want my kids to have MY last name. Me and my bf have actually gotten into many arguments about this.”

You should also try beating him so he can go to the domestic abuse center and represent for us dudes over there. We are very underrepresented.

“This country will be where it should be in twenty years. Abortion will be outlawed. Gay marriage will continue to be outlawed. The number of women in medicine will decrease and Christianity will be the government.” -Hakashi

You don’t want the number of women in medicine to decline, more women M.D.s only improves life for you if you make it into medicine, Hakashi. Think of it like this. When you are a single man in medical school. You are surrounded by relatively attractive female medical students, then you have the nursing students and on top of that the gold-diggers and the single available family members of friends and acquaintances and you still have the choice of finding a foreign bride (which becomes easier and easier today due to the internet). You will be in male chauvinist hog heaven. It’s about choices and you can pick your future wife based on looks, physical traits, and also personal beliefs, so quit hating on these professional women and just live your life. You should not be mean to these ladies because they help advance society.


“The biggest problem with your economic theory is that you're going to get what you have in Europe right now if we adopt it in this country. Namely, that birth rates are going to decline to the point that the population begins to shrink, economic output and growth is stymied, and the tax base dries up. Such a society is simply not sustainable.” -NPursuit

Don’t worry buddy, we Hispanics won’t let that happen here. We’ll have this place looking like mexico in no time.


“Yes, the keyworld in your quotation is girl, not woman. I will not marry a girl. I will marry a woman. A woman realizes her first responsibility is to her children and husband. Her career is second to that.”

Hakashi, I’m a guy and I feel that my primary responsibility will always be to my wife and children, then after them comes career, however I expect them to be comfortable sharing me with medicine. I want a woman who’s primary concern is her family, then her career also, but you shouldn’t expect it to go just one-way.

“no woman is going to serve you, get over it, unless you want a mail order bride from the homeland that you're parents bought.” -wends

Please marry a shallow, selfish man to compliment you, otherwise, a husband should serve his wife and a wife should serve her husband. And the mail order bride thing is a myth, you can’t order someone through the mail, you use a matching service, somewhat like match.com but it’s designed for American guys and foreign ladies. The foreign ladies will still have to choose the guy she wants to be her husband, so a man will still have to treat her right, but they are traditionally much less picky. Another cool thing is that in certain areas marriage of American men to foreign women have much lower divorce rates. Russia is the exception, they divorce like crazy. In a study by US immigration, marriage between Latin American women and American men have very very low divorce and separation rates, with most divorces happening within the first year.
http://www.usaimmigrationattorney.com/MarriageLongevityRates.html




Hakashi, I love the american woman and her desire to make something better of herself. You should stop hating and just live your life they way you want to, because you will be able to have what ever the hell you want anyway. So good luck with med school everyone

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Please. I do not support the Taliban in any way, but offhanded comments like that really piss me off. Let's just not be judgmental...remember, to the Taliban, we're the crazy evil ones. It's all perspective.

I dunno. The way they treated their women was so awful that it seems hard not to judge them, in the same way we are judging our right-wing religious poster here. Anyway, no offense taken or intended.

 

[chocolate-e]

Methinks I should not have tried to read this thread with a 5yo and 2yo running around the apartment ... oh well. Good excuse to skim/skip the trollish posts! 🙂

Anyway ... if I get married, I plan to take my husband's name ... just because we'll be building a life and a family together, and I'd like us to have a name together, too.

I do agree that it could get complicated if you were both doctors. Although, my chiropractor and his wife are in practice together and both have the same last name. I think she only sees patients occasionally, though (they have small children), and I'm pretty sure they call her Dr. Firstname. Also had a couple at my undergrad who both taught chemistry, and we called them Dr. Hisfirstname and Dr. Herfirstname.

Kudos to MissAlyssa ... how many people do you actually see on SDN who admit to having been wrong about something? Good for you! 🙂

 

[ocean11]

Sorry to dissapoint your Hakashi, the truth is this country is so multicultural that with the continued flux of immigrants, I cannot see it becoming a 'religious state'. And soon gay marrige will be permitted: just as other minorities have achieved rights, so will gays. So good luck finding a 'traditional' partner, perhaps you're in the wrong country. Oh wait you're Canadian, you're really in the wrong place dude, go to Afghanistan it's JUST the place for you

 

[PookieGirl]

You are a female chauvenist.

Good luck finding a man who is willing to do what you want. Men do not want feminists.

Did you learn this type of thinking from your mother or by reading about the feminst movement in books?

"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat."
-- Rebecca West, 1913

True feminists neither blindly follow nor oppose a gender rule. Feminism is about women freeing themselves of gender roles and doing what is personally right in their life. For some women, this means having children and being a stay-at-home mom. For other women, it means pursuing a career and not marrying nor having kids. And of course there are a million shades of gray in between. Maybe before you make an a$$ out of yourself (ooh wait, I guess it's too late for that) you should read up on what feminism truly is.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

actually pookie, I believe that hakashi would think like this even if he fully understood that the principle of feminism is a woman's right to choose her own course in life. Such thinking has always been heresy to the extreme religious patriarchal types.

... ok I better stop now before I wind up in a park somewhere holding up a sign 🙂

 

[Phil Anthropist]

This thread sure has derailed from the OP's original inquiry.

Keep it civil.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Sorry phil.

must...not...feed...trolls...

 

[PookieGirl]

As to the original question, I don't think I could give up my name. It's MY name. It's my NAME. When I volunteered in another country, some people had a hard time saying my name and referred to me by Mary or Marie, or my last name, and honestly I missed being called by my real and first name.

My name is part of who I am, so I can't just easily give it up. I could not drop my last name entirely. Nope.

I would consider hyphenating it for official purposes. But you know those people with hyphenated names-- most only refer to themself by one of those last names, as do the people around them. Otherwise it simply takes too long to say both names.

I've also thought it would be neat if I took my name, my husband's name, and scrambled up all the letters and came up with a new name. That'd be fun. The downside is that people wouldn't ever be able to look you up by your maiden name.

Then again, what the hell is with a "maiden" name? This tradition of changing one's name is steeped in weird loss of virginity/ woman as material goods BS. Men don't have to change their names or their stupid titles. They're always a Mr. (someone once told me there is a Master for young men but I"ve never seen an abbreviation for it), wherease women are a Miss, or Mrs, or Ms. Screw that. I always check Mrs.

Finally, I did know one couple who both took the other's name, so in the end the man and woman had the same hyphenated last name. Pretty sweet.

 

[drshorty]

Wow, this has become quite the thread. Basically, I have a really unusual situation and a lot more flexibility in regards to last names because of it. I come from a country (although I grew up in the US) where all the women keep their maiden names as their last name. The children's last name is (technically) supposed to be their grandfather's first name, but everyone plays fast and loose with that rule. My great-uncle, for example, was the firstborn and his father (my great-grandfather) decided that my uncle shouls be given his name as a last name. My dad actually now goes by his mother's last name because it made things easier when we immigrated to the United States (my grandfather is dead). It's confusing, but my last name is a part of my culture and my identity. I don't know for sure if I'll keep it, and my bf now doesn't care. For women, it's a difficult question to answer because it can become mired with so much baggage. I agree with others on this post- take whatever name you like better. And it doesn't mean having to get rid of your name completely. You can always use it as a middle name for you and your children or even a first name.

 

[lealf-ye]

This is mostly directed to the females. How many of you will keep your name professionally if you get married in medical school?

I asked my wife don't change her name. It mostly tradition.

 

[MoosePilot]

My parents, who gave me life, named me as they saw fit. My mother took my father's name, and that was HER choice. But that doesn't change the fact that my name is MY NAME and it doesn't matter to me if it came from my father or mother. People don't understand that this isn't a man-hating sentiment, it is the fact that I don't think my husband's name should suddenly become my own just because we get married. I do think it would be nice to share a name, but in that case, he will have to take my name and his name (mine as a middle, his as a last), and I will do the same, and our kids will do the same.

I'm not sure that you were looking for a little debate, but that's fine with me. I just think that males want this tradition to be kept up because it favors them, keeps them in their comfort zone, and they don't have to worry about changing their name or having a hyphenated name, etc. They just want things to be "easy" or as they've always been. But as a woman, I think it is my responsibility to question this tradition and look for alternatives that are more suitable to my needs.

If you want to make up a new tradition, I think that's fine. If you find a man who wants to go along with it, more power to you. How do you decide if your kids are going to be [dad surname] [mom surname] or vice versa? Must you have an even number so everything is totally balanced? This obsession with utter mathematical equity confuses me, but it must work for some, because it seems to be a pretty common desire in this thread.

I don't want this tradition to be kept up because it favors me. That might be a reason I'm not against it, but that's a different statement (if perhaps a subtle distinction). I want it to be kept up because it's tradition and because I think nuclear family is more important than extended family and surname is one more link. If you feel questioning the tradition is your responsibility, I'm glad you live up to your responsibilities. I think the issue is a great marker for all sorts of compatibility issues. I value it for that.

 

[MoosePilot]

My father AND mother gave me my name. They also gave me LIFE and with it, they got the naming privileges. Why does my husband have a right to "give" me a name or change my name? HE didn't give me life.

Actually, I have taken women's studies courses that deal with these very issues, and I personally don't let/ask men to open doors for me. I don't let them pay for dinner unless we do it on a rotating schedule. If I was in physical danger and couldn't defend myself, of course my husband would step in. I would do the same for him. Just because men are physically stronger, though, doesn't mean that I feel I need "protection" all the time. I have no control over army policy (and I am wholly anti-military anyway,) but I do have control over my own life, and I try to make things as equitable as possible. I find more often it's my boyfriend who is upset when I scurry to open the door for him, because he *wants* to do those nice things for me, but I also *want* to do those nice things for him, and I don't think that just because I am a woman, I am suddenly incapable of opening those big heavy doors

No hypocrisy here. And besides, do you think that if a woman DOES let a man open doors for her or pay for dinner, that means she has to give away her name as payment? Silly.

Payment? No, but it's a tradition in the same sense, so if someone opposes one tradition that they feel takes away from them, but expects (or demands) that others that favor them be honored, then they're a hypocrite who is shopping traditions to gain benefit. I have the utmost disrespect for that. I can respect someone who is consistent. It's just like someone from a totally foreign culture. I wouldn't marry someone that is deeply into an ethnic culture that is foreign to me and I wouldn't dream of marrying someone who is into the developing U.S. PC culture. I know we wouldn't be compatible. These questions make great compatibility tests, "So, if you ever get married, would you change your last name? No? What do you think of owning guns? Military service? Wearing a dress? Shaving your legs? Ewwwww...."

 

[NPursuit]

I dislike the tradition because it is rooted in men "owning" their wives.

Relevant today or the last several centuries, how?

Keeping my name or having my husband and I take on both of each other's last names is not distinguishing myself from my family.

So you limit your family to those who came after you and not before you? Or are you implying that others in your family have done the same thing?

It is not a powergrab. ....saying that women are after power. But by saying this, you're implying that there is power there to take.

Of course there is power to take. You tell a man that cultural tradition is not to your liking and that his name is not good enough for you and that you do not wish to wear it as women have done for centuries. You emasculate him, if tradition holds any consequence to him whatsoever. You tell him the understandings that society has about family and nomenclature are not good enough for you, and that you want more.

Does a man have power over his wife by making her take his name?

No. It's not a matter of making. It's a matter of giving a gift. And used to be a matter of accepting with honor. Not any longer, apparently.

Does a woman have power over her husband by having each of them keep their own name?

Yes. If either party put any weight on tradition and/or history whatsoever. This is further the case if the man proposes. (see below for exception)

I didn't argue that [adherence to cultural traditions was shallow]

Didn't say you were; I was giving you permission if you wanted but just telling you straight up that I would disagree with such a characterization.

And why wouldn't her name be a gift to you?

If she put it this way (as a gift before a proposal was made), then yes, I would consider taking hers as my own and probably do such, though I would be curious as to her motivations.

Is your name better than hers, does it have more value? If so, why?

No.

If not, what makes it a "gift?"

Because I offer it to her with my proposal of marriage.

Does it bestow upon her rights and privileges she as yet wasn't privy to with her maiden name?

Sure. It makes her a part of my family and certain conjugal activities that come with marriage.

(haha. This dude is mega-sleazy)

What if she wanted to give her name as a gift to you? Is that not okay?

If she phrased things that way before I had proposed to her, than yes, that would be okay.

I hope you find someone like that since that is the only type of woman it seems you can tolerate.

I don't think this is the case when you read my above responses. Though I would have problems with someone who did this solely out of some sort of political protest.

No, it doesn't. It signifies that I believe this tradition is outdated and that I personally do not agree with it. My mother took my dad's name, and I certainly don't think I'm better than her.

Sure it does. How could it not signify that you think you're different than those that came before you? Obviously they weren't offended, didn't feel that attached to a name, or didn't feel that they needed to cling to their name to subvert the tyranical patriarchal system of taking the male's last name. [/sarcasm]

If you're not different, why do you feel you need to break tradition from your mother, your mother's mother, your mother's mother's mother, and your mother's mother's mother's mother? Are you saying they were naive for not recognizing the horrible bondage they are cast into for taking on their husband's name? How could they subject themselves to such tyrants! Or do you think they took those names with pride?

Here is the gist of my argument: I do think couples should share the same last name when they marry (i.e. the two become one). I do think there is a value in a name being passed down through the generations, and I think it's best that there is a systematic way of doing this. I do believe that males and females are essentially equal in a relationship, but that as a general rule, males are best attuned to some tasks (though not exclusively) and females to others (though not exclusively). These differences do not make one partner dominant over another. The same goes with accepting a name (i.e. that there is no subjugation in a woman accepting her husband's name). Our society has deemed that the male should pass this name through time.

If a female should wish to pass her name as a gift to the male (and not as a form of political dissent or power grab), she should understand that culture has given the male an expectation that his name will be handed down, and that refusing this tradition could very easily be perceived as saying "I am better than this" or "you are not good enough/masculine enough."

In other words, I would be offended if after my proposal a woman demanded to keep her name. I do not think I would be offended if she brought it up beforehand with a sense of understanding, though I would admittedly be a little taken aback by it given my ingrained expectations.

I would also prefer a woman ask me to take her name as my own as opposed to having her ask me to keep my name and let her have her name. I think a married couple should stand as one and with a unifying name. Also in agreement with Moosepilot on the nuclear family and a unifying name holding this unit together.

 

[mustangsally65]

Just because something has been done for centuries doesn't make it right. Lots of things have been done for centuries, like slavery or war or many other things that are not necessarily good things.

I don't plan on taking my husband's name if I get married, because my name will be on my undergrad and MD degrees. I see it as a hassle, and it would create a lot of confusion. However, I think my kids would be confused as to why their parents didn't have the same name. So I'm debating between having a professional name and a social name, or not, which will also depend on whether or not I marry another doctor.

I have no idea what will influence my decisions in the future, so I try not to state what I will definitely do in any given situation. Who knows what might happen tomorrow?

Also, I think one big reason that women don't have to register for the selective services is because women are needed for reproduction. Not that men aren't needed, but to draft a woman when she is just starting out her most fertile years wouldn't be good for propogating the species. Of course, we do have an overpopulation problem these days.

Maybe in the future women who have reached menopause will have to register for the selective service, because they will no longer be "needed" to carry on the species. (j/k!)

Interesting discussion, by the way. It's great to live in a country where we can all have different opinions.

 

[MoosePilot]

Just because something has been done for centuries doesn't make it right. Lots of things have been done for centuries, like slavery or war or many other things that are not necessarily good things.

I don't plan on taking my husband's name if I get married, because my name will be on my undergrad and MD degrees. I see it as a hassle, and it would create a lot of confusion. However, I think my kids would be confused as to why their parents didn't have the same name. So I'm debating between having a professional name and a social name, or not, which will also depend on whether or not I marry another doctor.

I have no idea what will influence my decisions in the future, so I try not to state what I will definitely do in any given situation. Who knows what might happen tomorrow?

Also, I think one big reason that women don't have to register for the selective services is because women are needed for reproduction. Not that men aren't needed, but to draft a woman when she is just starting out her most fertile years wouldn't be good for propogating the species. Of course, we do have an overpopulation problem these days.

Maybe in the future women who have reached menopause will have to register for the selective service, because they will no longer be "needed" to carry on the species. (j/k!)

Interesting discussion, by the way. It's great to live in a country where we can all have different opinions.

We do have an overpopulation problem and most cultures tend to monogamy these days, so as long as their isn't a disparity between combat casualties, female losses won't matter mathematically. I'm not advocating that, though. If I did, I'd fall into the category of people I don't like who want to eliminate traditions selectively. I'm ok with women volunteering, but I would vehemently oppose selective service for women (I think it's almost outmoded for men, but don't have a big opinion).

What confusion? This confusion has been dealt with for many years. "Hey, Sally X!" "Oh, you haven't heard my good news? I met a wonderful man and got married right after I graduated from med school! I'm going by Doctor Y now!" "Congratulations!" (then friend promptly forgets your new last name, to no real detriment).

 

[criminallyinane]

If you want to make up a new tradition, I think that's fine. If you find a man who wants to go along with it, more power to you. How do you decide if your kids are going to be [dad surname] [mom surname] or vice versa? Must you have an even number so everything is totally balanced? This obsession with utter mathematical equity confuses me, but it must work for some, because it seems to be a pretty common desire in this thread.

Until someone answers my question of why the cohesiveness of a nuclear family hinges on taking the father's name as opposed to the mother's name or a combination thereof, I don't really want to continue this argument; however, I do want to say that there is no "mathematical equality" here. My husband, myself, and my kids will all have both surnames. That is it. I don't know what you're talking about regarding eve numbers; all my kids will share the same two last names. Their parents will share them, too. That's it. It'll probably be ordered MyName as a middle name and HisName as the last name because people will default to calling me Dr. HisName regardless, so might as well make it easy for them, but I don't really care about that as long as my family all shares both family names.

The end. Not that hard to comprehend, is it?

 

[criminallyinane]

These questions make great compatibility tests, "So, if you ever get married, would you change your last name? No? What do you think of owning guns? Military service? Wearing a dress? Shaving your legs? Ewwwww...."

I'm with you until the wearing a dress part. Does it make a woman a non-feminist to wear a dress? And if you believe so, then why must she dress in unisex or male clothes to be considered feminist? Is feminism about taking away female characteristics, or embracing a womanhood without restriction? Designing gender roles that one is comfortable with rather than defaulting to the societal expectations? If a woman wears traditionally female clothing (and it would be hard to wear all men's clothes all the time, given the difficulty of finding the right fit), how does that jive or not jive with wanting to keep her last name, not liking guns, not liking military service?

 

[MoosePilot]

I'm with you until the wearing a dress part. Does it make a woman a non-feminist to wear a dress? And if you believe so, then why must she dress in unisex or male clothes to be considered feminist? Is feminism about taking away female characteristics, or embracing a womanhood without restriction? Designing gender roles that one is comfortable with rather than defaulting to the societal expectations? If a woman wears traditionally female clothing (and it would be hard to wear all men's clothes all the time, given the difficulty of finding the right fit), how does that jive or not jive with wanting to keep her last name, not liking guns, not liking military service?

These tests aren't for a feminist. They're for someone compatible to me.

My definition of feminism and yours might be different. Mine might be reviled in many states

My definition might be someone who believes that virtue is independent of gender and believes that females are as good (or as bad) as men. This is not related to what career they may want to work in, what traditions they may want to embrace (or avoid, although this impacts on compatibility with me, but not feminism), or any other personal opinion factors apart from a basic belief in equality.

 

[MoosePilot]

Until someone answers my question of why the cohesiveness of a nuclear family hinges on taking the father's name as opposed to the mother's name or a combination thereof, I don't really want to continue this argument; however, I do want to say that there is no "mathematical equality" here. My husband, myself, and my kids will all have both surnames. That is it. I don't know what you're talking about regarding eve numbers; all my kids will share the same two last names. Their parents will share them, too. That's it. It'll probably be ordered MyName as a middle name and HisName as the last name because people will default to calling me Dr. HisName regardless, so might as well make it easy for them, but I don't really care about that as long as my family all shares both family names.

The end. Not that hard to comprehend, is it?

Heh. You're being snarky. Provoking you to such is not my intent. Is there a better way I can phrase my arguments to make it less heated?

Your comfort level begins at having both names in the family. I think that's great and thought it was cool when I heard that Hispanic tradition (which I don't recall exactly and might be mischaracterizing) featured that. However, along a line traversing through women taking her husband's name and extending through your desire to have the whole family including both names, there might be a point further along, perhaps next generation, that thinks you're hopelessly subjugated because you don't care about the order. What happens to your maiden name in the next generation? If it's lost, isn't that a sign that you're worth less? If we keep every last name, doesn't it become unwieldy?

I think this is an interesting topic, but I really don't intend to offend. I know I'm not dating any of you, so I'm happily pretty emotionally distant from the topic except to enjoy the discussion.

 

[Dies Irae]

Oh, for cryin' out loud, I can't believe this argument is still going on.

Women, do not change your name...under any circumstances. It's not about tradition, it's not about liberation, it's not about power, and it's certainly not about God. It's about the headache you'll have when you have to change them back!

The US currently has something like a ~50% divorce rate, and that is counting people like "Imperial Dragon Hakashi," who will most likely rule his house with an iron fist and infantilize his wife! HONESTLY, how many of you really truly believe your relationships or future relationships will be strong enough to escape that statistic?

 

[criminallyinane]

Heh. You're being snarky. Provoking you to such is not my intent. Is there a better way I can phrase my arguments to make it less heated?

Your comfort level begins at having both names in the family. I think that's great and thought it was cool when I heard that Hispanic tradition (which I don't recall exactly and might be mischaracterizing) featured that. However, along a line traversing through women taking her husband's name and extending through your desire to have the whole family including both names, there might be a point further along, perhaps next generation, that thinks you're hopelessly subjugated because you don't care about the order. What happens to your maiden name in the next generation? If it's lost, isn't that a sign that you're worth less? If we keep every last name, doesn't it become unwieldy?

Yeah, I am snarky, because I want to know one thing.
Yes, I want to keep both names in my family. That is what is right FOR ME, not for anyone else. I don't judge other women for changing their names and I don't judge men for wanting THEIR woman to change her name, as long as they don't spew crap to society about how ALL women should.

But for people who insist that one name is best, please answer this: what is it about you having a penis that means that your name is the one that should be taken? What is it about my having a vagina that means mine shouldn't?

Gender is a construct of the world we live in. Pure anatomical sex differences are the only true distinguishing factor between men and women; everything else is "tradition" and societal standard. So please answer my questions about penises, vaginas, and why if you were XX instead of XY, you should change your name.

Thank you.

 

[MoosePilot]

Yeah, I am snarky, because I want to know one thing.
Yes, I want to keep both names in my family. That is what is right FOR ME, not for anyone else. I don't judge other women for changing their names and I don't judge men for wanting THEIR woman to change her name, as long as they don't spew crap to society about how ALL women should.

But for people who insist that one name is best, please answer this: what is it about you having a penis that means that your name is the one that should be taken? What is it about my having a vagina that means mine shouldn't?

Gender is a construct of the world we live in. Pure anatomical sex differences are the only true distinguishing factor between men and women; everything else is "tradition" and societal standard. So please answer my questions about penises, vaginas, and why if you were XX instead of XY, you should change your name.

Thank you.

Gender is a construct of the world we live in?

You answered your own question as far as I'm concerned. Tradition is the driving force behind this one for me. I value tradition. Many traditions have vague ties to anatomical sex differences, but I think this one is just plain tradition.

 

[criminallyinane]

Gender is a construct of the world we live in?

You answered your own question as far as I'm concerned. Tradition is the driving force behind this one for me. I value tradition. Many traditions have vague ties to anatomical sex differences, but I think this one is just plain tradition.

Another poster equated a woman keeping her name as an emasculation of her husband. Do you agree that your masculinity is tied into traditions such as this, and do you believe that to be "emasculated" is a horrific thing?

Attitudes such as this (not saying that this is your attitude) are what drives the belief that men are superior. If it is insuling to a man that his wife wants to keep her own name, and if the reason it is insulting is because it offends his "manliness", then that is saying that to be less manly is to be less worthy. A woman is not manly; is she less worthy?

And, yes, gender is a construct- moreso of the society we live in than the world, so if you want to argue semantics, I'll give that to you. Gender is a societal construct, sex is not. There is a difference between gender and sex.

If gender was not a societal construct, then all societies would classify gender roles the same way. Because they do not, then clearly, the only fundamental, clear difference between men and women is anatomy.

 

[MoosePilot]

Another poster equated a woman keeping her name as an emasculation of her husband. Do you agree that your masculinity is tied into traditions such as this, and do you believe that to be "emasculated" is a horrific thing?

Attitudes such as this (not saying that this is your attitude) are what drives the belief that men are superior. If it is insuling to a man that his wife wants to keep her own name, and if the reason it is insulting is because it offends his "manliness", then that is saying that to be less manly is to be less worthy. A woman is not manly; is she less worthy?

And, yes, gender is a construct- moreso of the society we live in than the world, so if you want to argue semantics, I'll give that to you. Gender is a societal construct, sex is not. There is a difference between gender and sex.

If gender was not a societal construct, then all societies would classify gender roles the same way. Because they do not, then clearly, the only fundamental, clear difference between men and women is anatomy.

I think "emasculation" is such a weird term. It's very subjective. Between a man who is traditional and others that are traditional, yes, it would be emasculating. Such might not be the intent of a non-traditional woman, but such would be the outcome to a traditional man.

As for emasculation saying that women must be less worthy because she's not manly... nope. Doesn't work like that. A pie that is not sweet is yucky. My chicken pot pie is not sweet. Is it yucky? No, because it's not supposed to be sweet. Men should be manly. Women should be womanly. For each, losing their particular virtues make them less. Gaining virtues associated with the other does not make them less. Most virtues are truly human virtues and can be admired in either gender, but I'm discussing traditional US masculinity/femininity.

I think you're right about the societal construct, I laugh because you say that as if to say it makes it less important.

 

[sierra89]

Many females are spouting about how "my name is my name and I like it". Well many of you women(some not all) have your fathers last names. Had youre moms felt the way you feel you would have her name. I guess you would keep that name too huh? Or should you make up your own? Then it would truly be "Your Name."

I have my mother's last name. Obviously, there are reasons for that which have nothing to do with why I like my last name and want to keep it: My last name is a part of my identity.

That said, I do like some of the people's ideas about a "family" name not necessarily being one partner's or the other. I think I'd have to evaluate what to do at some future date when marriage is actually a possibility in my life.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

As an aside, I really hate it when we get mail addressed to "Mr. and Mrs. HisName LastName." I am NOT him, I am not a part of him, I am not his posession. I have my own first name, thank you very much. I was perfectly happy to take my husband's last name, but I refuse to be addressed by his first as well.

It's also going to be cool when we are "Dr. and Dr." or "Drs." 🙂

Tigress: we often disagree, but I was just going to say that this just enrages me. To take away someone's first name is a denial of identity.

 

[getunconcsious]

Hey guys and gals. I think I have a pretty unique perspective on this because I am a male who has changed his last name (I'm from a CRAZY dysfunctional family, lol). When I changed my name I was 11, and it did cause a great deal of confusion and it was really a hassle when I turned 18 and had to change it *legally*. I can only imagine the amount of hassle and confusion it would cause an adult professional woman!

That said, I didn't have much of an identity crisis, it wasn't really that weird since your first name is generally your main identifier. Also, I don't care much for my family (esp. those with my birth name) so I didn't care about being dis-associated with them.

That said, this is a very personal issue! I think people should just do whatever works for them. Those that are trying to push the issue one way or the other (crimnallyinane, NPursuit) I don't really understand why, since what works for you may not feel right for someone else! Live and let live! NPursuit, it doesn't affect YOU if criminallyinane wants to keep her own name or hyphenate it. It's her business! There really is no right or wrong answer in my opinion. Some people are very attached to their last names. I'm not one of them, but that doesn't mean I'm going to call out those who are. I think it's just an issue of compatibility really. If you are very traditional and want a woman who will take your name and be a full-time homemaker, then that's fine! There's nothing wrong with it. Just find someone who is looking to do that, rather than trying to convert a more progressive, career-oriented woman! And girls, if you want to keep your name and be the breadwinner, that's fine too! Just find a guy that is liberal and cool with it. I think if you really are deadlocked over the name-taking issue then you may not be compatible on a more fundamental level.

Oh and I totally agree with Flopotomist. I'm gay, and at least you breeders have the option! We can try to change names, but it's pretty hard. I wouldn't have a problem taking my partner's name especially if we adopt children, in order to feel more like a family. Or he can take my name if he'd rather (Some people have burdensome names and/or burdensome families, LOL) That's just the way I think about it. but it's just one of those 'to each his own' things. To argue over whether or not it's 'right' to take your man's surname or keep your own is really pointless. Everyone should just do their own thing. 😎

 

[sierra89]

The biggest problem with your economic theory is that you're going to get what you have in Europe right now if we adopt it in this country. Namely, that birth rates are going to decline to the point that the population begins to shrink, economic output and growth is stymied, and the tax base dries up. Such a society is simply not sustainable.

There is a reason the traditional household is traditional.

That's not to say that women can't work and that men shouldn't help around the house. It is to say, however, that there will be extreme consequences to doing away with the traditional.

I agree with the perspective that the economy would suffer if the population declined, but we could never reach that sort of reality in the near future. Perhaps, by then, we'd have time to figure out the best way to restructure our economy to deal with something like that (by learning from countries--I think Germany is one of them--that already have declining populations).

HOWEVER, it would take hundreds to thousands of years to recover "nonrenewable" resources from our earth. Of course, we might have time to figure out how to achieve the same end using different means. (For example, using hydrogen fuel cell cars instead of the internal combustion engine, which consumes fossil fuels--as a means of transportation.) This does not eliminate all of the downsides of resource consumption, though. Nonrenewable resources cannot be recreated or otherwise recovered once they are gone.

"Overpopulation" as the reason behind the degradation of natural resources does not give the full explanation. People in industrialized, affluent countries consume more than those in the poorest countries. An average person in an affluent country such as the U.S. leaves a larger footprint than an average person in most of the other countries in this world.

In economic terms, I can see that population decline is negative. But for the big picture (I mean the truly global picture), I do not believe that population decline is a bad thing.

So what if a woman decides to put her career ahead of having a family that includes bearing children of her own? This is a premedical forum and we are either already doctors or we wish to become them--presumably this is because we are humanitarians, at least to some degree. Therefore, I would like to conclude that if a woman wants to make her contribution to society by becoming a productive careerwoman, she should be as respected as much as those women who choose to make their contribution by having children, and as much as those women who make their contribution by choosing both a career and family (with kids).

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I have my mother's surname as my middle name. My sister's middle name is my paternal grandmother's maiden name. This was done because her branch of the family died out with her and her sister. My sister intends to pass it on to her children, as do I.

NPursuit: I don't really understand your argument. I would find it emasculating if my wife tried to change MY last name. Masculinity is associated with autonomy, and this is how I would see myself. However, what is so emasculating about a wife refusing to change her last name? Doesn't this imply that the relationship must take on a dominance-subservience in order for me not to be emasculated? This makes no sense.

As for naming children after the father, I think this is legitimate, if for no other reason than that mother's line is clear from the pregnancy; by giving the father's name, he, in a sense, lays equal claim to the child. At least that's how I understand it.

Also, Biblically, the genealogy is patrilineal, whereas Jewishness is matrilineal. Personally, I believe that this was originally rooted in a sense of "security" that "if it came out of the woman it must be hers" - so that the child of a Jewish mother was at the very least half-Jewish (since we don't know about the father).

And to the ignoramuses who think Christianity is a religion that enslaves women, read the Bible. Christ raised woman above their status in either Judaism or (later on) Islam. Some of the most radical (male) Jews thank God that "they are not a woman" every day. And that's nothing compared to the way Islam treats them. Christ ministered to women: Mary and Martha, Mary Magdalene, the Samaritan woman at the well, the Syrophoenician woman with the sick daughter, the woman taken in adultery whom He saved, etc. The resurrection was revealed first to women. And Paul clearly states that just as the woman is of the man, the man is also of the woman. On *spiritual* terms, before Christ and God, men and women are 100% equal. In the afterlife, we are sexless, just like the angels; we are neither married, nor given in marriage. But in this life, there is a clear societal and *earthly* heirarchy: the man is the head of the woman, Christ is the head of the man.

Some will argue that pagan religions may have given women greater rights in the form of priestesses, but this is a distorted picture, as often the women in these religions are brutalized or even prostituted. Many of the ancient Greek priestesses were hetaeras, or religious prostitutes.

 

[MoosePilot]

NPursuit: I don't really understand your argument. I would find it emasculating if my wife tried to change MY last name. Masculinity is associated with autonomy, and this is how I would see myself. However, what is so emasculating about a wife refusing to change her last name? Doesn't this imply that the relationship must take on a dominance-subservience in order for me not to be emasculated? This makes no sense.

It makes no sense in your paradigm. Think if you were traditional and hung out with traditional guys. Nobody does this and your wife decides to? Why? What's wrong with you that she doesn't want to share your name when 99% of married women do?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

It makes no sense in your paradigm. Think if you were traditional and hung out with traditional guys. Nobody does this and your wife decides to? Why? What's wrong with you that she doesn't want to share your name when 99% of married women do?

I don't blindly follow traditions "just because" or because of peer pressure. I live in a PC culture nowadays, and it is not popular to be a true Christian in this culture, but I don't care. That's what I believe, and I am not ashamed of my savior. Same thing goes with the names; I personally would not find it emasculating if my wife did not change her name: after all, she is an equal human being, I have not adopted her, she is not my daughter, she is my wife and I am her husband. In this marriage, I would strive for consensus always, but were there to be deadlock, I would expect her to give way. I would equally contribute to house duties, and would LOVE to spend as much time with the kids. If you don't invest in your children, they won't love you; fathers need to spend just as much time with both their sons and their daughters, as do mothers.

I know my thinking is not perhaps in line with your thinking. But then again, I'm not like 99% of blablabla - I am me, and that is enough.

 

[MoosePilot]

I don't blindly follow traditions "just because" or because of peer pressure. I live in a PC culture nowadays, and it is not popular to be a true Christian in this culture, but I don't care. That's what I believed, and I am not ashamed of my savior. Same thing goes with the names; I personally would not find it emasculating if my wife did not change her name: afterall, she is an equal human being, I have not adopted her, she is not my daughter, she is my wife and I am her husband. In this marriage, I would strive for consensus always, but were there to be deadlock, I would expect her to give way. I would equally contribute to house duties, and would LOVE to spend as much time with the kids. If you don't invest in your children, they won't love you; fathers need to spend just as much time with both their sons and their daughters, as do mothers.

I know my thinking is not perhaps in line with your thinking. But then again, I'm not like 99% of blablabla - I am me, and that is enough.

I'm not arguing with you. I'm just saying the way you look at it is not the only way, which I'm sure you understand. I totally agree with your sentiments, except for the name. Labels are labels and they're never adequate for the job. I don't own children, whether adopted or natural, either, yet I don't feel hesitant to label them. All the labels they'll ever have, all the paradigms they'll start life with (and indeed judge all future paradigms by), but I don't own them.

What is the Shakespeare line about a rose? Labels are just bull**** in general... but my surname is a sign of everything I'm willing to give. It was the most valuable thing my father passed to me and I'm willing to share it and risk it on a woman. There's nothing more I can do to show her that I'm giving everything I am.

 

[Camillekc]

1. Your boyfriend is has not reached manhood. He is still a boy. He always will be.

2. I have just finished my second year of undergrad after getting a 4.0 in both years. Considering I just turned 18, it would be safe to assume I am far better off than you were at my age.

3. ‘wives, serve your husbands, serve your husbands in everything’ Ephesians 5: 21-69

What part of this quotation do you not understand? Can I assume you are a democrat who doesn't feel Christianity should have any say in government? 🙄

How come Hakashi can still post after being banned for trolling?

And come on, out with it now- that all was just satire now, right? Does anyone really still believe all that? If not, it's like witch-burning, just give it up already.

What's that line in the Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz, where he's talking about anti-semitism in a resort town, and something about how the few hotels that still banned Jews were nothing so much as endearing, for their insistence in holding on to outdated beliefs. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

 

[tigress]

Oh, for cryin' out loud, I can't believe this argument is still going on.

Women, do not change your name...under any circumstances. It's not about tradition, it's not about liberation, it's not about power, and it's certainly not about God. It's about the headache you'll have when you have to change them back!

The US currently has something like a ~50% divorce rate, and that is counting people like "Imperial Dragon Hakashi," who will most likely rule his house with an iron fist and infantilize his wife! HONESTLY, how many of you really truly believe your relationships or future relationships will be strong enough to escape that statistic?

*raises hand*
me, me! I don't believe that, I know it.

 

[criminallyinane]

I think "emasculation" is such a weird term. It's very subjective. Between a man who is traditional and others that are traditional, yes, it would be emasculating. Such might not be the intent of a non-traditional woman, but such would be the outcome to a traditional man.

As for emasculation saying that women must be less worthy because she's not manly... nope. Doesn't work like that. A pie that is not sweet is yucky. My chicken pot pie is not sweet. Is it yucky? No, because it's not supposed to be sweet. Men should be manly. Women should be womanly. For each, losing their particular virtues make them less. Gaining virtues associated with the other does not make them less. Most virtues are truly human virtues and can be admired in either gender, but I'm discussing traditional US masculinity/femininity.

I think you're right about the societal construct, I laugh because you say that as if to say it makes it less important

yes! Most traits are human, and societal expectations shouldn't be used as a barometer to test a man's "manliness" or a woman's "femininity," precisely because those are made up traits! The fact that people are expected to live up to a made-up standard of what their lives should be, and the fact that it's all artificially constructed does make it less important. Are we trying to win popularity contests here? Are we trying to prove to everyone else that we can fit into our assigned gender categories really well? Traits are artificially categorized into male or female, but why does that mean people must adhere to their assigned gender category even when something inside of them feels it is against their fiber?

When are we going to stop making people feel badly about themselves in this country if they don't live up to societal standards? When are women who want to keep their own name going to be accepted as anything other than butch feminazis, and when are sensitive men going to not be called "fags?" (Those examples are purposely extreme, but you get the picture.) When are homosexuals not going to be persecuted?

The reason I dislike most conservatives is because they seem to be people who have this idea, that everyone must live up to a certain standard: their Christian, conservative, traditional ways. It's not good enough for them to live their lives that way and be satisfied with that; they have to insist that anyone who doesn't do things their way is wrong. My example here comes from gay marriage. Who does it hurt to allow gay people to marry? Does it make your marriage less worthy? Or does it just insult your sensibilities? If it offends your sensibilities, is that rooted in religious belief? If so, then although you have the right to feel how you feel, why should our country make laws removing other people's freedoms just because it's against your religion? In this country, we're supposed to believe that people are free to live their live without restriction so long as they do not infringe on others' rights. But we've been getting it wrong and messing this up since the beginning of this country's inception. First with Africans, then immigrants, then the continued persecution of women and black people, Japanese people, and at this present day, homosexuals. I don't understand it. I don't know why we can't just live and let live. Why should two people who are not hurting anybody (except, perhaps in your opinion, themselves) not be allowed to marry as consenting adults? Because it grosses you out or goes against your religion? So what? Those adults don't have to live their life your way. That's supposed to be why we live in America. But man, this country is starting to sh-t the bed, and it needs to go back the other way.

Conservatives strike me as people who are bent on conformity and don't accept diversity. They strike me as the people who think they're the cheerleaders and jocks from high school: it's their job to be traditional and whitebread and "all-American" (whatever the fock that means) and to enjoy making everyone else's lives hell if they don't look like you, act like you, or kiss your ass. The irony being, of course, that the most all-American person is not the blonde, blue-eyed princess; it is the biracial working mother whose grandparents came here for a better life. It is someone who came here to seek freedoms and received them. It is a representation of opportunity.

Unfortunately, this country is going to sh_t. We're going back in time.

I am no longer going to post on this thread because it frustrates me to go around in circles with people on the right side of the fence. I don't like it because it feels like banging my head against a brick wall that was constructed in the 1950's.

Later.